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Old 2006-09-30, 22:25   Link #41
relentlessflame
 
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
To be certain, we're both talking about this, right?

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/nintend...ler-172712.php
Yes, that's the one. The cable shown attaches to the Wii Remote (not to the console -- as seen here), and this controller attachment is not included in the Wii Hardware bundle, but available seperately. Actually, I can't even find reference to the price point for North America yet on any of the official sites. For the Gamecube compatibility, you can also connect Gamecube controllers to the console's 4 Gamecube controller ports. But, there is no standard Wii controller other than the Wii Remote - all the other shells attach/connect to that.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2006-09-30 at 22:50. Reason: Correction on price point - can't find an official source
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Old 2006-09-30, 23:02   Link #42
Urzu 7
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
To whoever siad that twilight princess will be a good game...

LMAO...

What game is better? Ocarina of Time or FF7? FF7.
Wind Waker or FFX? FFX.
Twilight Princess or FFXIII? FFXIII.

Face it, LoZ has

A) no beautiful women
B) no speaking characters
C) inferior graphics
D) kid-friendly clean-hands worlds
E) NO other characters in your party
F) little to no epic battles
G) annoying puzzles
H) more focus on gameplay than an actual story

Am I missing anything? When I play an RPG, I play it to be told a story, and to have gorgeous visuals with that. Legend of Zelda provides none of that shit. At point 1, Link runs around, haxes stuff, and screams. By the end of the game, Link runs around, haxes stuff, and screams.

Character development, anybody?

No -.-

FFXIII tells a better story and is far more visually pleasing (especially since we have a cross of Yuna and Tifa as our main hero) than any LoZ game has ever been.

FFXIII+PS3=WINSAUCE.

Wii=better get parties going, or it'll get boring, FAST.


Man, you don't even understand that the Zelda franchise and FF (and traditional JRPGs) are two very different things. This is like comparing Contra with Quake or Gran Turismo with F-Zero. FF series is traditional JRPG fare. Zelda is action adventure in fantasy setting with a slight RPG twist. Big differences all around.

Anywho, we can tell you like FF series more, which is fine, but don't directly compare them, they play in different leagues, so to speak. Its like Half Life 2 and Halo 2 are in the same genre; Zelda and FF are not.

And why all the hype for FF XIII? Geez, its way off in the distance. Granted, I'll probably get a PS3 over X360 and want to at least check out FF XIII, but we have the great looking FF XII coming out at the end of October. Have people forgotten about this gem? I have my copy of the special edition of FF XII on reserve.
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Old 2006-09-30, 23:14   Link #43
Lebron
I hear voices
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
To whoever siad that twilight princess will be a good game...

LMAO...

What game is better? Ocarina of Time or FF7? FF7.
Wind Waker or FFX? FFX.
Twilight Princess or FFXIII? FFXIII.

Face it, LoZ has

A) no beautiful women
B) no speaking characters
C) inferior graphics
D) kid-friendly clean-hands worlds
E) NO other characters in your party
F) little to no epic battles
G) annoying puzzles
H) more focus on gameplay than an actual story

Am I missing anything? When I play an RPG, I play it to be told a story, and to have gorgeous visuals with that. Legend of Zelda provides none of that shit. At point 1, Link runs around, haxes stuff, and screams. By the end of the game, Link runs around, haxes stuff, and screams.

Character development, anybody?

No -.-

FFXIII tells a better story and is far more visually pleasing (especially since we have a cross of Yuna and Tifa as our main hero) than any LoZ game has ever been.

FFXIII+PS3=WINSAUCE.

Wii=better get parties going, or it'll get boring, FAST.
Everytime you post it seems your IQ continues to plummet more, and more. It really is amazing
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Old 2006-10-01, 01:20   Link #44
Demongod86
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FFXII seems meh to me...nobody looks anywhere near as good as Yuna in her songstress outfit.
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Old 2006-10-01, 06:52   Link #45
Dark`
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
And why all the hype for FF XIII? Geez, its way off in the distance. Granted, I'll probably get a PS3 over X360 and want to at least check out FF XIII, but we have the great looking FF XII coming out at the end of October. Have people forgotten about this gem? I have my copy of the special edition of FF XII on reserve.
Nope, I reserved a copy of the Collector's Edition as well. 30 days to go and counting...

As for demongod's post...ugh. I was considering replying to that, but I don't see how I need to add anything further to what Lebron basically said. I think my IQ dropped some from reading that post...
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[14:22] <@Dark`> =D
[14:22] <~lucifer> Then after I finish Genshiken S2 dvd rips, he's free game.
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Old 2006-10-01, 07:56   Link #46
Radd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Yes, that's the one. The cable shown attaches to the Wii Remote (not to the console -- as seen here), and this controller attachment is not included in the Wii Hardware bundle, but available seperately. Actually, I can't even find reference to the price point for North America yet on any of the official sites. For the Gamecube compatibility, you can also connect Gamecube controllers to the console's 4 Gamecube controller ports. But, there is no standard Wii controller other than the Wii Remote - all the other shells attach/connect to that.

Hmmm, somewhere I had heard that the Classic pad was coming with the bundle. I looked and could not find confirmation now, in fact I coudln't find any credible listing of what came bundled with the North American version, so I concede that point for the time being.

However, I like that the Classic pad connects to the Wiimote. I did not know that, and lamented that it was a wired controller. This is a great compromise, in that the wireless part of it doesn't add to the cost, since it uses the Wiimote wireless.

On the other hand, I'm torn on the layout. It's basically what the Dual Shock is, an SNES pad with two poorly placed analogue sticks. At the same time, the pad will mainly be used for SNES and NES games, so the placement of the D-pad is more important, so the lackluster positioning of the analogue sticks isn't neccessarily a bad thing. I'll stick to my Gamecube controllers for N64 and Gamecube games, though.
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Old 2006-10-01, 12:09   Link #47
Toxic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7
And why all the hype for FF XIII? Geez, its way off in the distance. Granted, I'll probably get a PS3 over X360 and want to at least check out FF XIII, but we have the great looking FF XII coming out at the end of October. Have people forgotten about this gem? I have my copy of the special edition of FF XII on reserve.
"Gem"?! I'd like to let you know that FF XII won't be very good. Watch some of the trailers and previews, you won't like what you see.

FF is getting ruined.
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Old 2006-10-01, 13:24   Link #48
Benoit
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Age: 28
Quote:
What game is better? Ocarina of Time or FF7? FF7.
Both are overhyped good games.
Quote:
A) no beautiful women
If you want to look at beautiful women, rent a movie, buy a fashion magazine, or watch porn. Your pick. I play a game to play, not jack off.
Quote:
B) no speaking characters
Everyone but Link talks. If you mean voice, well, so what? I admit it's nice, but in no way is it that amazing of a feature.
Quote:
C) inferior graphics
Of the games you listed that are out, the Legend of Zelda games have better graphics.
Quote:
G) annoying puzzles
Probably because you suck at them.
Quote:
Am I missing anything?
Yes. The fact that they are different kinds of games.
Quote:
FFXIII tells a better story and is far more visually pleasing
Interesting how you can rate a game that isn't out yet, never mind still in heavy development.
Quote:
FFXII seems meh to me...nobody looks anywhere near as good as Yuna in her songstress outfit.
Because we all buy games to jack off at girls.
Quote:
"Gem"?! I'd like to let you know that FF XII won't be very good. Watch some of the trailers and previews, you won't like what you see.
Because we can rate games based on trailers and previews. Brilliant.
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Old 2006-10-01, 13:44   Link #49
Onizuka-GTO
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lololol.

Benoit + everyone pwned Demongod86

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Old 2006-10-01, 14:36   Link #50
Demongod86
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If you play an RPG to play a game, you're playing the wrong kind of game. Of all the genres of games I have EVER played, the RPG has by far the LEAST hands-on play. FPSs, flight action games, etc... ALL have more gameplay than RPGs which are 1/3rd running around, 1/3rd clicking fighting commands in a menu, and 1/3rd watching cinematics.

The reason I don't like these puzzles is that they completely ruin the flow of the fact that I'm in a world being told a story, and the villain just decided to put these SOLVABLE puzzles throughout his castle, and left the key to his secret chambers lying around somewhere behind a dungeon door!

I mean come the hell on, if you had to make an impregnable fortress, why not make the puzzles impossible, or simply just inundate it with all sorts of brutal traps or monsters? Puzzles add nothing to the story, which is everything in an RPG. They are just distractions for the sake of gameplay, and while I don't mind puzzles in a puzzle game, they do not belong in a game which is supposed to tell a story.

In FFX, those little cloister of trials or whatever the hell you went through with Tidus while everyone else was waiting outside just screamed "WTF" to me. Why was Tidus doing those puzzles and not going with the rest of the party? Because he's some hooligan that feels like playing in the temples? Come on.

And actually, if I am being told a VISUAL STORY, I want the VISUALS to be PLEASING. Yuna is not somebody to jack off to. FFS she's barely even legal. But she is aesthetically pleasing. Ditto Tifa.

LoZ provides NOTHING that makes an RPG good. Typical kill-big-badguy story, inundate with puzzles and distractions for lack of a good story, and then pride yourself on making a good game.

Frankly, if I want "gameplay", I'll go and play an FPS or a flying shooter game. But if I want to be told a story, I'll play an RPG, and in an RPG, the less I have to do of pressing attack, and clicking on target monster, the better. This is why I think FFX is far better than FF7 is, since FFX had FAR better instruments to tell a story, even though said story was arguably worse. FF7 to me focused more on gameplay, FFX more on story.

If RPG tells bad story, RPG sucks.
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Old 2006-10-01, 14:42   Link #51
Lebron
I hear voices
 
 
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you do realize true RPGS are suppose to allow you to create your own story, right? Create your own character and ablities, right? Just letting you know, you seem to be confused on the defintion of a true RPG is.
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Last edited by Lebron; 2006-10-01 at 15:02.
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Old 2006-10-01, 15:01   Link #52
Lebron
I hear voices
 
 
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So the LOZ sucks, eh?
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrank...asp?rankings=y
Highest Rated Game, Ever.

Why don't you go look up the ratings for your FF games. Not trying to knock FF, but saying LOZ sucks, is just retarded. Pretty much shows you have no idea WTF your talking about.

Not to mention that Zelda:TP has won many of awards at various game shows, and is one of the most hyped games coming out in '06.
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Old 2006-10-01, 17:36   Link #53
Demongod86
Gundam Boobs and Boom FTW
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebron
you do realize true RPGS are suppose to allow you to create your own story, right? Create your own character and ablities, right? Just letting you know, you seem to be confused on the defintion of a true RPG is.
A word means what we want it to mean. True definitions vs. associated definitions...semantics.
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Old 2006-10-01, 18:31   Link #54
Urzu 7
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic
"Gem"?! I'd like to let you know that FF XII won't be very good. Watch some of the trailers and previews, you won't like what you see.

FF is getting ruined.

FF has had ups and downs since FF 7, IMO. I never got into FF 8, I tried twice and gave up both times. FF 9 I personally loved. FF 7 was great for its time but started bringing the series in a bit of a bad direction. I never got into FF X. FF XI shouldn't have been FF XI; they should have just made FF XI "FF Online" and should have kept FF XI as a true successor, which is what FF XII is. Anywho, I've missed out on FF X, which several people have told me was a hard play through (and some told me they loved it, yes), so I'm ready for FF XII. I know the battle system is a big departure from past FF games, but I'm glad to see a change. And the game looks really good. Great graphics and an interesting world that is mostly a fantasy setting. I'm looking forward to it, and I'm sure it'll be one of the last great PS2 games.
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Old 2006-10-01, 19:09   Link #55
Dark`
The Terror of Death
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of igloos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic
"Gem"?! I'd like to let you know that FF XII won't be very good. Watch some of the trailers and previews, you won't like what you see.

FF is getting ruined.
Actually, I've watched the trailers and read previews and...well, I like what I see. Of course, my tastes do seem to differ from yours on this alone. I also disagree about FF getting ruined...but that's your opinion and I can't deny you that. I just don't agree with that assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
f you play an RPG to play a game, you're playing the wrong kind of game. Of all the genres of games I have EVER played, the RPG has by far the LEAST hands-on play. FPSs, flight action games, etc... ALL have more gameplay than RPGs which are 1/3rd running around, 1/3rd clicking fighting commands in a menu, and 1/3rd watching cinematics.
Well then, excuse me for buying a Role Playing Game to play a game.

Quote:
The reason I don't like these puzzles is that they completely ruin the flow of the fact that I'm in a world being told a story, and the villain just decided to put these SOLVABLE puzzles throughout his castle, and left the key to his secret chambers lying around somewhere behind a dungeon door!
I don't see how that's any different from normal RPGs. I was playing through Xenosaga II last night and god knows there were a bunch of puzzles to solve (ie - hitting switches, hitting blocks around to form bridges, etc). Furthermore, the Legend of Zelda is not a true RPG, it's an action RPG. For that matter, comparing it to Kingdom Hearts would be a more accurate comparison, but still not dead on.

Quote:
I mean come the hell on, if you had to make an impregnable fortress, why not make the puzzles impossible, or simply just inundate it with all sorts of brutal traps or monsters? Puzzles add nothing to the story, which is everything in an RPG. They are just distractions for the sake of gameplay, and while I don't mind puzzles in a puzzle game, they do not belong in a game which is supposed to tell a story.
I wouldn't say story is everything in an RPG...otherwise it'd be just a movie. And again, you're confusing the genre that 'The Legend of Zelda' is in. It's an action RPG, and by that definition it will be more gameplay-orientated than a "regular" RPG. Not to mention that while each dungeon does house a boss, they are not they "impregnable fortresses" you try to make them out to be. Referencing Ocarina of Time, one dungeon was a cave which housed a delicacy for a certain race of beings, another was the belly of a large fish (worshipped as a deity of sorts), another was inside a magical tree...how exactly are those fortresses of any sort?
Granted, puzzles in those places don't exactly make sense either. But then, what part of "regular" RPGs make sense either? Running into invisible enemies (random encounters)? Drinking a potion to recover health or magic? Being brought back to life after death? Or the fact that the all-powerful antagonist will choose not to simply snuff you out at the beginning of the game, instead sending his minions after you starting with the weakest guy until finally his right-hand man is defeated as well, and then you're super-powered up and can take him out. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge RPG fan and so that means I love the genre despite all this, but your fixation on puzzles being a bad thing in games is...stupid.

Quote:
And actually, if I am being told a VISUAL STORY, I want the VISUALS to be PLEASING. Yuna is not somebody to jack off to. FFS she's barely even legal. But she is aesthetically pleasing. Ditto Tifa.
I'd argue that the visuals in Legend of Zelda, especially Twilight Princess, are amazing. Just because the girls aren't hot doesn't make the visuals bad.

Quote:
LoZ provides NOTHING that makes an RPG good. Typical kill-big-badguy story, inundate with puzzles and distractions for lack of a good story, and then pride yourself on making a good game.
How is that different from any other RPG? God, the fanboy-ism oozing from this statement...

Quote:
Frankly, if I want "gameplay", I'll go and play an FPS or a flying shooter game. But if I want to be told a story, I'll play an RPG, and in an RPG, the less I have to do of pressing attack, and clicking on target monster, the better. This is why I think FFX is far better than FF7 is, since FFX had FAR better instruments to tell a story, even though said story was arguably worse. FF7 to me focused more on gameplay, FFX more on story.

If RPG tells bad story, RPG sucks.
Well then, I'm sure you'd like a game like this then: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/09/08; namely, a game that plays itself...otherwise known as a movie. Geez, you don't even want to press attack and click on a monster? That screams "WTF" to me more than when you were wondering why Tidus was playing in those Temple of Cloisters.

I won't deny that a bad story hurts an RPG moreso than a game of a different genre like an FPS game or a platformer, but gameplay still plays a part. Ignoring gameplay is just dumb...well, I guess that's why you don't care about it.
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[14:22] <~lucifer> So he gets the blessing of "Least Faggoty".
[14:22] <@Dark`> =D
[14:22] <~lucifer> Then after I finish Genshiken S2 dvd rips, he's free game.
[14:22] <~lucifer> (Read: Canada's getting blown up.)
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Old 2006-10-01, 20:33   Link #56
Lebron
I hear voices
 
 
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The guy is a lost cause, just let it go.
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Old 2006-10-01, 21:04   Link #57
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark`
Actually, I've watched the trailers and read previews and...well, I like what I see. Of course, my tastes do seem to differ from yours on this alone. I also disagree about FF getting ruined...but that's your opinion and I can't deny you that. I just don't agree with that assessment.
I've finished FF XII, and frankly, it's better not to set the standards high. We may differ in opinion, but for something hyped up to be phenomenal, I found FF XII lacking in a lot of areas. A good game nevertheless, but it's no more than just a good RPG. If one is to put aside the graphical flaws, I'd say that in terms of gameplay, story, character development, side-quest, plot progression, etc, Tales of Abyss is superior to FF XII.

Anyway, you'll understand when you play it. It'll be very tedious in the beginning of the game, I'll say that first.

Back on the topic of nex-gen, I'd prefer to ignore Demongod. There's little substance to be revoked.
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Old 2006-10-01, 21:23   Link #58
Demongod86
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quite a few things about RPGs don't make sense, and in actuality, I like LoZ's battle system more as it makes more sense (EG you see who's coming to jump you and don't fight a zillion invisible enemies), and what I meant by LoZ having "impregnable fortresses" is basically the temples in which you had to go into one room, solve puzzle X, just to get to another room to solve puzzle Y, get a key, go back into the room in which you solved puzzle X, put in the key, solve more puzzles, etc...I mean if whichever bad guy didn't want you to get through the damn temple, why not just throw away the keys or whatever?

As for why big bad guy doesn't come to snuff you out? They usually have more important things to do at the current moment. And it's not always the same bad guy, which is why games that are you vs. them (with no other parties involved) are the most pernicious. In FF7, Sephiroth in fact DID confront the party several times, but actually instead had the party do his bidding (LOL!).

As for action RPGs being more gameplay oriented, that's absolute bullshit. It just means that instead of random encounters and *load battle screen* battles with menus, you fight everything in real time. Have you ever played Seiken Densetsu 3 for the super nintendo (post chrono trigger, never made it to america, go look it up for emulator)? That was an action RPG every bit as much as LoZ was, yet it told a perfectly good story, rather than just ZOMG LET'S GO KILL BIG BADGUY.

As for gameplay, one of the reasons that FFX appealed to me was something that most people cried FOUL over: the LACK of gameplay, percentagewise, compared to the cutscenes/CGs. I didn't have to solve a zillion puzzles, fight through a million random encounters just to progress through the story.

Yes, gameplay is important, but in a single-player videogame, what fun is it to mash buttons without having a reason for mashing the buttons? When it's in the middle of the school year and you don't have much time to play, and you have to choose between a few games, is it better to play through a good story or through a mindless game?

FF's more story-centric themes rather than gameplay themes make it focus more on the story-telling elements and developing the characters, rather than say "here is our hero link. Watch link run. Watch link jump," which has been just about every single LoZ game I've seen. No doubt, some people think that LoZ is a great series of games, but when you're going around mindlessly hack and slashing from one enemy to the next, and the only thing that comes out of an NPC's mouth is information, it sorta gets mundane.

RPGs to me are interactive stories, not so much games with stories behind them. And as graphics get better and better, games WILL become more like movies, rather than the "take your character and kill everything in sight" games that we've been progressing from since day 1.

And frankly, the games on the PS3 will do that better than any others.
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Old 2006-10-01, 21:27   Link #59
Dark`
The Terror of Death
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Land of igloos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebron
The guy is a lost cause, just let it go.
Yeah, I knew as much...old habits die hard I guess.

Anyways, as to not have this post be completely off-topic, guess I'll add my $0.02 (I was trying to avoid doing so, but meh).

Spoiler for Xbox 360:


Spoiler for PlayStation 3:


Spoiler for Wii:


Used spoiler tags because I'm so long-winded. Overall, I'm going to be purchasing a Wii (almost guaranteed to get one at launch) and a PS3 (eventually, when there are good games out) for sure...the Xbox 360's kind of a gray area. I'm more inclined to go where the games are, rather than side with a particular company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
Hmmm, somewhere I had heard that the Classic pad was coming with the bundle. I looked and could not find confirmation now, in fact I coudln't find any credible listing of what came bundled with the North American version, so I concede that point for the time being.
A bundle of sorts. The Wii's Virtual Console is supposed to work quite similarly to the 360's Xbox Live Arcade, in that you pay via points. It was said that the highest value pay card ($50 or so I think?) thingy in Japan was going to be bundled with the classic controller for what I'm assuming to be a limited time. Unfortunately, there was no mention of that deal crossing the oceans and offering itself to the North Americans. =/

Edit: Ah yes...I found the link to what I was talking about. Here it is (second last paragraph of the article): http://www.gamespot.com/news/6157573.html

"The controller (pictured above right) used for playing classic games on the Wii will be sold separately for 1,800 yen (around $15). However, for a limited time, consumers who purchase a 5,000 point Wii-point card will receive a classic controller for free. The 5,000 point card will retail for 5,000 yen ($42.50), and 3,000-point (3,000 yen/$25.50), and 1,000-point (1,000 yen/$8.50) cards will also be available. No direct US pricing for Wii point cards was available as of press time."

Here's the picture they were referring to:
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[14:22] <~lucifer> Dark` has to stay around to QC Genshiken s2
[14:22] <~lucifer> since you guys won't
[14:22] <~lucifer> So he gets the blessing of "Least Faggoty".
[14:22] <@Dark`> =D
[14:22] <~lucifer> Then after I finish Genshiken S2 dvd rips, he's free game.
[14:22] <~lucifer> (Read: Canada's getting blown up.)

Last edited by Dark`; 2006-10-01 at 21:48.
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Old 2006-10-01, 21:42   Link #60
Dark`
The Terror of Death
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale
I've finished FF XII, and frankly, it's better not to set the standards high. We may differ in opinion, but for something hyped up to be phenomenal, I found FF XII lacking in a lot of areas. A good game nevertheless, but it's no more than just a good RPG. If one is to put aside the graphical flaws, I'd say that in terms of gameplay, story, character development, side-quest, plot progression, etc, Tales of Abyss is superior to FF XII.

Anyway, you'll understand when you play it. It'll be very tedious in the beginning of the game, I'll say that first.

Back on the topic of nex-gen, I'd prefer to ignore Demongod. There's little substance to be revoked.
Apologies to all for double posting.

After playing through what I thought to be a great RPG (Xenosaga), I was/am terribly disappointed by Xenosaga II...of which I'm only still playing through so I can have save data to use with Xenosaga III.

While it's true that all the hype for FFXII can certainly lead to its downfall, I'm still cautiously optimistic. Honestly, Xenosaga II is probably the first RPG I've played that I dislike playing. I have played and enjoyed FF, FFIV, FFVI, FFVII, the ever hated (by quite a few people I notice...) FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, FFX-2 (didn't live up to the standards set by FFX, but it was still a decent and light-hearted game)...and that's only mentioning the Final Fantasy series. I played FFXI as well, but got sick of it when I hit the mid-60s...too much of a chore after that. But I did enjoy it while it lasted.

My point is...well, I guess my standards tend to be a lot lower than that of other people? I played the demo that came with DQVIII and while it didn't blow me away, I didn't think it was nearly as bad as some people claimed it to be. I mean, I don't expect it to totally knock my socks off while playing it, but I do think I'll get an enjoyable experience out of it. Cautiously optimistic you could say.
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[14:22] <~lucifer> Dark` has to stay around to QC Genshiken s2
[14:22] <~lucifer> since you guys won't
[14:22] <~lucifer> So he gets the blessing of "Least Faggoty".
[14:22] <@Dark`> =D
[14:22] <~lucifer> Then after I finish Genshiken S2 dvd rips, he's free game.
[14:22] <~lucifer> (Read: Canada's getting blown up.)
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