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Old 2014-11-27, 13:51   Link #1
relentlessflame
 
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Retirement of Fansub-related Forums

Those of you who have been following some of the staff comments over recent years probably saw this coming, but you may have noticed today that we made some changes related to the parts of the forum that were directly related to fansubbing.

AnimeSuki originally started in the early-2000s as a site to help people find unlicensed anime via torrents. Over the years, the need for such a service has gradually faded away; today, most new anime is available via legal streaming with subtitles, often on the day of its original broadcast in Japan. You may have already noticed that the main torrent listing website is no longer actively maintained; at this point it should basically be considered a historical archive. As a result of all this, the sections of the forum that were originally put in place to support the torrent listing site were no longer getting much use, and were a bit at-odds with this forum's primary focus of simply being a place to discuss anime and related media.

We made the following changes:
  • The Fansub Groups forum is now a sub-section of General Anime, and is locked for new thread creation.
  • The Tech Support Forum can now be found in the General section
  • The Playback Help section is now locked/archived (no new posting), and is a sub-section underneath Tech Support.
  • The Download Help, Torrent Submissions, and Resharing Request forums are no longer available.

We will also be making some adjustments to our Forum Rules in the near future to phase out provisions that relate to fansubbing. In simple terms, we will no longer allow linking to or discussing any site that hosts illegal/unauthorized fan translations. While we do understand that there are still some fan translations that are aligned to our code of ethics, the fact is that most people and sites today do not make that distinction. It's likely that most people today don't even understand what "licensing" is. So, we will still allow links to official/authorized sites and services, but otherwise leave people to their own devices off-site. (This same policy will apply to forum threads, social groups, visitor messages, private messages, and all other aspects of the site.)

Edit: To be more clear in light of a question below, you can still discuss the content for any anime/manga/LN/etc. Just without discussing or posting links to where to find it if it's not a legal/officially-sanctioned site.


A major chapter of this site's history is coming to a close, but we hope to continue to be a vibrant community for the discussion of anime, manga, light novels, games, and other related media for years to come. Thanks to everyone for your participation and support!
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2014-11-27 at 22:48.
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Old 2014-11-27, 14:45   Link #2
monster
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Is there any plan to eventually just move the forum to www.animesuki.com domain and either removing the torrent site or putting it in some other subdomain like torrent.animesuki.com or archive.animesuki.com?
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Old 2014-11-27, 21:17   Link #3
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Is there any plan to eventually just move the forum to www.animesuki.com domain and either removing the torrent site or putting it in some other subdomain like torrent.animesuki.com or archive.animesuki.com?
I think something like that will happen eventually, yes. I'm not sure if the forum will become www, or if www will just redirect to the forum... but something like that.
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Old 2014-11-27, 22:27   Link #4
Marcus H.
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Does this mean that Baka-tsuki-related discussions are no longer allowed?
If that is the case, then expect a huge chunk of the members here to suddenly lose any reason to be active here.
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Old 2014-11-27, 22:44   Link #5
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Does this mean that Baka-tsuki-related discussions are no longer allowed?
If that is the case, then expect a huge chunk of the members here to suddenly lose any reason to be active here.
You can discuss the content of any manga/LN/anime/etc. as much as you want. You just cannot discuss where to find it if it's not a legal/officially-sanctioned method.

I don't think this is really that different than what already happens on this site in practice, as we generally frown on links even to that site (as they don't always adhere to our licensing policy). Even back in the day, there was still plenty of discussion of licensed anime as it aired, even if you weren't allowed to talk about the fansubs.
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Old 2014-11-28, 04:28   Link #6
Quarkboy
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Otsukaresamadeshita, Anime Suki fansub related stuff!

Would you believe that the incident with media-factory's cease and desist letter years ago could be considered a catalyst for me to 1. move to Japan, 2. get involved in anime licensing/localization officially, start up my own anime streaming/crowdfunding initiative, and shortly be involved even more deeply with the worldwide marketing and distribution of anime legally around the world?

I owe a non-zero percent of that to this forum, the help I got from the people on it, and the community that was gathered here.

That era has ended, and it is good to see this forum moving on, but let's give thanks (it is thanksgiving, after all), for everything it's done for us over the years.
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Old 2014-11-28, 08:02   Link #7
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Does this mean that Baka-tsuki-related discussions are no longer allowed?
If that is the case, then expect a huge chunk of the members here to suddenly lose any reason to be active here.
Let me add my little support behind this feedback. If anything, I would have considered to suggest _extending_ the site support of the Light Novel translation genre, and to split it from mangas (just like mangas were kept separate from anime for good reasons)

With the diminishing activities on the anime fansub side, there has been a significant increase in activity on the Light Novel side. And Baka-Tsuki has been very scrupulous to remove projects once lightning struck and someone (usually Yen Press) licenced the material. AS has been a good way to show appreciation to the translators on Baka-Tsuki.

So why for crying out loud is this not only going to be not supported by AS, but effectively outlawed?

Sorry, I don't get it. This is a decision which is hurting the community for no reason I can see. Can you please elaborate or reconsider?
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Old 2014-11-28, 21:00   Link #8
relentlessflame
 
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We are considering splitting the Light Novel section from the Manga section, but are still trying to figure out how to actually make the change practically speaking given the huge mass of intermixed content at the moment. It will be a significant undertaking and require a careful plan.

People can still use this site to discuss the novels that are being fan-translated and that hasn't changed at all. We already don't allow links or mentions to that site now, because they violate our licensing policy; they don't take down the translations upon license announcement, but have a gradual removal process. I've certainly removed links and mentions to that site in the past, as have other mods. If there are cases where we have not done this, it was an oversight. But even if you think their policy is "close enough" and we should find it compatible, they could change their policy at any time, and many other sites exist with different rules. Expecting people to understand whether various sites do or doesn't comply to our particular policy, and thus whether they are or are not allowed to talk about them, isn't really reasonable these days. A policy of "no links, no mentions" is much easier for everyone to understand.

This site is not against fan translations of unlicensed works; this is not some sort of "snub". Everyone can continue to talk about the latest chapters as they are fan-translated, just as they can talk about the latest anime episodes as they're released. But it's much cleaner to take a "don't ask, don't tell" policy about where you found it, considering that every site has its own rules and policies, and there is no longer a common, practised understanding as there arguably was in the early days of "digi-subbing". So that's why we intend to make this change. I truly don't think it should have any material impact on Light Novel discussion on the site.
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Old 2014-11-29, 03:28   Link #9
monster
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
AS has been a good way to show appreciation to the translators
Considering the focus of this site had been on anime fansub, it made sense why fansub discussions took place in this forum in the past. That shouldn't necessarily spill over to unofficial translators of other mediums.

If anyone wants to show appreciation to certain groups translating for any medium, there's probably a better way of doing it at their own sites. Otherwise, there's no reason why one can't still discuss the works themselves in this forum.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a harsh opinion, and maybe the moderators would be more lenient, but I really don't think discussing groups doing work on other mediums should ever go anywhere near the level of discussions of anime fansub groups in the past. Limiting discussions to the works themselves is better in my opinion.
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Old 2014-11-29, 03:41   Link #10
Marcus H.
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there's probably a better way of doing it at their own sites.
I tell you now: it's not the same issue as in fansub groups that are often organized and have a site of their own. Light novel translations are often handled by a single person, and that person doesn't even show up in any website aside from AS. Take out their chance to show their efforts and lots of people would be missing out on all those promising works in Shousetsuka ni Narou, which may amount to the hundreds.
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Winter 2015: Durarara!! x2, Koufuku Graffiti, Saenai Heroine no Sodatekata, Tsukimonogatari, and Kantai Collection.
LIGHT NOVEL CHALLENGE: Absolute Duo, Seiken Tsukai no World Break and Sister of Testament New Devil.


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Old 2014-11-29, 03:51   Link #11
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I tell you now: it's not the same issue as in fansub groups that are often organized and have a site of their own. Light novel translations are often handled by a single person, and that person doesn't even show up in any website aside from AS. Take out their chance to show their efforts and lots of people would be missing out on all those promising works in Shousetsuka ni Narou, which may amount to the hundreds.
I see. That certainly complicates the matter. Although in my experience, certain sites that aggregate various anime/manga translations are now including light novels as well. So it's not like it's much harder to find these translations, especially if there is a discussion of the works themselves in the forum.
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Old 2014-11-29, 17:58   Link #12
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
I tell you now: it's not the same issue as in fansub groups that are often organized and have a site of their own. Light novel translations are often handled by a single person, and that person doesn't even show up in any website aside from AS. Take out their chance to show their efforts and lots of people would be missing out on all those promising works in Shousetsuka ni Narou, which may amount to the hundreds.
Sorry... but I call doubt on this. That translator can still post here without any problem, and continue to talk about the works they're involved in (without linking to where to find it or talking about the fan-translation process). It's not like all of a sudden Google and the outside Internet will cease to exist. People who are involved in fan-translating works or discover them will continue to talk about them, and I'm sure people can figure out how to find the relevant sites with very minimal effort.

And I also agree with what monster said: this seems like an opportunity for someone to create an aggregator site, if one doesn't already exist. The forum was never intended to be this sort of aggregator, just a place to discuss the content itself. Discussing the content facilitates discovery by proxy.
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Old 2014-11-30, 18:45   Link #13
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What I simply don't understand is the WHY: What the fish is the point in once again removing a useful service/opportunity from AS for no perceivable reason?

I find it very hard to believe that AS might have received a C&D from Yen Press, and I'm not aware of anyone else entering the Light Novel translation market who might have an interest. So I'll try to contain my considerable irritation and ask politely: WHY are you doing this? WHY are you considering to hurt the community for no tangible reason?

You wrote:

Quote:
The forum was never intended to be this sort of aggregator, just a place to discuss the content itself.
And this once again reeks of this terrible "we know better what's good for you than you do" nannyism that has been creeping up in the last years and costing me countless grey hairs. relentlessflame, you of all people you should know what I'm talking about.

The forum is just a place to discuss the content of anime? With all due respect, I beg to differ. Then why the forum about technical help? Why the forum about games? Why the forum about news and general talk (about politics and whatnot)? Why the torrent aggregator?

Animesuki was an open community for people loving anime and related things (hence the name). A COMMUNITY. That's why AS was successful: Because it was open and did NOT shoehorn its users into narrow boxes, telling them what they are allowed to discuss where, with whom and how. A lively community where people could actually disagree with each other, and yes - occasionally even yell at each other, as long things did not get out of hand.

In _my_ most humble opinion, there needs to be a plausible reason for banning/removing something that the anime/manga/LN community wants to do. I have yet to hear such a reason, and "It was never intended" is no reason at all.

If I may: How about you mods concentrate more on adding and/or simplifying things that the community wants to do/talk about instead of taking them away? I can agree with cleaning up redundant mostly-dead boards, and the Fansub board has been inactive for a while - fine. In the mostly-stagnant barren wasteland of the anime/manga mainstream, not much has happened over the last years. What has definitely preciously blossomed lately however has been the LN translation field. If you want to support the community, we need MORE of that, not less, especially since to my knowledge, Baka-Tsuki has proactively removed all licenced series in the past.

I know that you guys do read and consider feedback, so I implore you to take a step back and think about it once more. AS has many strengths. Please do consider if this measure would make AS better or worse. It's obvious that many people will be frustrated, and there is exactly _no_ tangible upside.

So please don't. Please give LNs their own separate category (which would also remove the problem when a manga and LN version are in desynch), and I would strongly lobby for a way to show appreciation.
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Old 2014-11-30, 22:17   Link #14
Solace
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
In _my_ most humble opinion, there needs to be a plausible reason for banning/removing something that the anime/manga/LN community wants to do. I have yet to hear such a reason, and "It was never intended" is no reason at all.
So you want us to allow everyone to post links to whatever they want? Clarify your position.
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Old 2014-12-01, 04:53   Link #15
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To sum up my position:

Best solution: Officially sanction/tolerate linking to Baka-Tsuki, due to their history of removing projects once they are licenced. At least not until a licence holder really C&Ds Animesuki (something which I find hard to imagine).

Acceptable solution: Current status quo. Disallow direct linking, but tolerate indirect referencing a'la "chapter 5 out on B-T", including thanking the authors for their work.

Please do not go beyond this.

Regardless of this, I would strongly suggest to split light novels from the mangas. They are an entirely different field. This would also allow manga readers to be able to follow and discuss the shows without having the LN reader discussion spoil the story.
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Old 2014-12-01, 11:02   Link #16
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
To sum up my position:

Acceptable solution: Current status quo. Disallow direct linking, but tolerate indirect referencing a'la "chapter 5 out on B-T", including thanking the authors for their work.
I would go so far as removing "BT" from that. Allow discussion of project status/progression without mentioning where.
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Old 2014-12-01, 13:15   Link #17
monster
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I would go so far as removing "BT" from that. Allow discussion of project status/progression without mentioning where.
Yes, that's where I would draw the line too.
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Old 2014-12-01, 14:21   Link #18
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No. I want to be able to thank the translators working on the LNs, and this is definitely impeded by rules like "hey, we all know that you are reading fan translations (since there is no other way to know about it in the first place), but we pretend to be 'honorable' by forbidding the readers to tell where they got them".

There is no NEED for this kind of hypocrisy. So why in the first place?
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Old 2014-12-01, 15:10   Link #19
monster
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The point is that as long as the rule is applied equally to all other mediums, I don't see the need to single out light novel. There's nothing hypocritical about it as no one is actively banning anyone else to say where they got them while saying it themselves.

Also, as I said before, it's not that difficult nowadays for anyone who watches/reads unofficial releases of anime/manga to find out how to do the same thing for light novel. There are other ways for finding that information without seeing it in this forum.
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Old 2014-12-01, 15:48   Link #20
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How is it impeded, Mentar? You speak as if you wouldn't have any knowledge of who was doing the translations if they weren't posting in the thread.

We are not going to officially sanction BakaTsuki. We have no control over what they do. The alternative is also unacceptable. The point of the policy change is to remove inconsistencies between forum policies. We don't allow any links to unlicensed scans, episodes, movies, games, music, or sites that promote them. Why should we allow this for novels as well?

It's hypocritical to put these rules in place for some things and not others. We're no longer the torrent listing, fan translation promoting site. Sorry, but it's the truth. We promote discussion, not illegal access. We're not stupid, we know some people are getting these things illegally, but the same case can be made for all media. That doesn't mean we should prevent any discussion about the content just because there's a certain population of people who don't consume that content legally.

But we can't continue to have feet in both sides of the issue. The original mission of the site: to promote anime through fansubs, has been accomplished in spades. You're suggesting that we turn to the next "battle", so to speak, in the form of light novels. However there's already a site for that: Baka. They're far better designed for the task than we are.

So let me ask again. Clarify your position. What makes us the better choice, as opposed to us closing the door entirely? Why should we open the door wider for light novel fan translations when BT exists and is frequently used?

You're arguing that we should continue to allow an exception for light novels even though it is currently the outlier to our policies. More than that, you're arguing for our policies to embrace them more than we already have.

You know our current position. "No, please, don't! You'll ruin everything! Think of the community!" is not exactly a compelling argument. In fact, it's a bit insulting that you would even think that we wouldn't weigh such things into our decision making.

And yes, we're currently drawing up plans on how to split the forum. It's a bit complex given how much they intertwine, however.
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