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Old 2010-11-29, 13:10   Link #26341
Nanya01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Well, you like all of them.
Well, to be honest, when they first showed up, the Wolkenritter were upsetting. Everything about them (except Vita) just was jarring to me.

The Hucks, not so much.

Heck, I like Signum, she's awesome, but she was ASKING for the beat-down she got since she tanked Fate's attacks in A's.

I watch A's, and all I want to do is smack the Wolkies and the catgirls with a paper fan, no matter HOW many times I watch it. (At least the catgirls got that spanking they deserved in one of my fics)

I read that fight of Force, and, well, what Cypha did to Signum doesn't bother me.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:32   Link #26342
Takamura Mamoru
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^ One day I'm going to kill myself because of posts like this. One day.

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Old 2010-11-29, 13:34   Link #26343
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
>Cypha gets a profile image

>people talk about Signum

Holy hell, nobody likes her, do they?
Well I don't know about the others but:
Using exotic weapons in her fight against Signum---> She have an advantage, why waste it? No problem there
Having insane regen---> Again, it's part of her weapons package, just like the cartridges
Boasting on how awesome and fun it is to murder innocent civilians---> .....Die, BWitch!

That pretty much sums my opinion


On something image related (was this posted? I forgot)
Spoiler for Potentially NSFW:
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:37   Link #26344
Justin_Brett
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...well, going by your post, you're obviously logging onto this site from some bizarro universe, so my point still stands.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:42   Link #26345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
...well, going by your post, you're obviously logging onto this site from some bizarro universe, so my point still stands.
*Shrugs*

I also like the Numbers more than any of the other characters in the series (except Quattro).

And, honestly, even though we see why the Wolkenritter were doing what they were doing in A's for a good reason...

I *STILL* can't like them in A's.

I've tried.

I can't.
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:43   Link #26346
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
...well, going by your post, you're obviously logging onto this site from some bizarro universe, so my point still stands.
You obviously never walked into the "Is Cypha cheating or not?" argument at the manga thread back when the chapter got out (summer, I think?), did you? Still, no reason to bring that topic here, I guess *cough* image thread*cough*
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Old 2010-11-29, 13:44   Link #26347
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Hey, Cypha's pretty cool, yo. It's nice to see villains actually acting like villains for once. All the haters are just bitter that she scored a legitimate victory against a fan favourite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
^ One day I'm going to kill myself because of posts like this. One day.

So this pic finally gets a high res version. It's decent, but the posing is all stiff and wooden. It's almost like gazing down at happy cadavers in a morgue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
On something image related (was this posted? I forgot)
Spoiler for Potentially NSFW:
It's part of one of the special Vivid volume 2 covers.

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Old 2010-11-29, 13:54   Link #26348
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I have no problem with genuine villainy. The Huckebeins just aren't likable genuine villainy.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:04   Link #26349
Koveras Alvane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Hey, Cypha's pretty cool, yo. It's nice to see villains actually acting like villains for once. All the haters are just bitter that she scored a legitimate victory against a fan favourite.
Ah, but that's the apple of discord: those you refer to as "haters" don't see her victory as legitimate. That was kinda the whole point of that argument. Personally, I have no problem with Cypha, even if she is a psychotic murderer... as long as she gets a can of righteous whoopass opened on her at some point. :3
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:10   Link #26350
shiroi mahotsukai
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It's about time we had villians that weren't likable, we've done well so far. I mean even Jail with his over the top acting was kinda likable.
Besides legitimate victory=we have a badass villian: Cheating=we have a real villian who will resort to real evil means.

Arguments like these always interest me, since I see both sides taking a different view on the same thing. It's a nice insight on the way people think.

If signum had died then I would care, she didn't so I don't.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:14   Link #26351
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From what I understand, that was mostly the point; Cypha won easily at the end because of the Eclipse. That's something none of the mages could probably fight against without their new devices, and Signum didn't have that. Actually, I think it's a strong sign of Signum's character; even knowing what she was up against, she still did her best to get the "innocents" instead of retreating.

So I don't see it as a knock against Signum at all. You can bet that, when she comes back with a new/upgraded device, she's gonna give Cypha a run for her money.

The only thing I'd possibly give a knock to, is that we are shown in the StrikerS manga that you can use magic to strike an AMF target with natural/kinetic forces, ie, Nanoha's Stardust Fall and Fate's use of lightning. So technically speaking, fire should have worked. However, I can think of a decent counterpoint, in that it was probably magic holding the flames together, and once that mana was unlinked, the flames dissipated naturally. Signum would have to work up a mostly non-magical flamethrower of sorts.

But yes, Cypha used HAX, but given we had AMF earlier, it was something the TSAB was going to come up against sooner or later.

And I'd argue that "likeable" is being used somewhat incorrectly. I found Jail likable (he was just so hammy, but he delivered his performance so well), but Precia I didn't like so much. On the reverse, though, Precia's motivations and reasons for her actions were more understandable to me; everything she did was to get Alicia back because she was suffering the pain of losing the person she loved most. On the other hand, Jail didn't have much reason to him, other than to do the standard mad scientist gig. I can kinda understand, because he was supposedly made to have "infinite desire" but there wasn't much complexity to him.

So right now, I like the Huckbein and their "we are a family" nature and motivation to protect that (and others like them, like Thoma). I can understand their motivations. I both understand where they are coming from, and like their actions. Cypha was a bit over the top, but I'm hoping we'll get more individual backstory for her and the rest of the Hucks.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:16   Link #26352
Takamura Mamoru
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Cypha's alright. I don't even mind the hax ability she used.

I just mad that they used Signum for the Worf Effect, not someone else.

Like Vita. She always gets her ass kicked anyway.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:18   Link #26353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
Ah, but that's the apple of discord: those you refer to as "haters" don't see her victory as legitimate. That was kinda the whole point of that argument. Personally, I have no problem with Cypha, even if she is a psychotic murderer... as long as she gets a can of righteous whoopass opened on her at some point. :3
I'm a hater for just that reason, and I don't mind admitting such because that's pretty much how it was painted in-story too.

But I do agree that it had to happen, and not just to 'punish' a character for being competent in their first appearance. Imagine if Cypha hadn't done that - people probably wouldn't care nearly as much about her. No publicity is bad publicity, after all. Same with Veyron's first appearance. Actions seem to be stronger than words for them, unlike Jail or Precia.

Not saying that's a bad thing, but it felt very overt to me.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:21   Link #26354
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
I have no problem with genuine villainy. The Huckebeins just aren't likable genuine villainy.
This.

There are various and generous examples of cool villains who also had beaten fan favourites but are still interesting or awesome enough to be well received. Makoto Shishio and the Juppon Gattana from Ruroni Kenshin/Samurai X for example, The guy just beat the tar out of nearly all of the main cast and Soujiro completely pwns Kenshin early but they have traits that make them cool and somewhat likable villains, but are still ruthless bloodthirsty villains. So far Cypha's only accomplishment is defeating Sinum in a way that even didn't feel cool or awesome(Shishio and Soujiro pwns because they're just that good, not because of a superior sword or anything) but she gloats like if she just doing the most awesome thing in the world. She looks and try to act like a cool villains but still don't have enough credit to back it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiroi mahotsukai View Post
If signum had died then I would care, she didn't so I don't.
Wich sometimes i think was the best thing Tsuzuki coul possibly do, leaving her alive after "that" pertty much cement her new status as a punchin bag, i will wait for the next season when some other new villain came to beat her again -_-.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
All Signum needs is a better theme song!
NOOOO!!! That song is CURSED!!(it didn't save Lamia from ...well, you should know this already T-T).

Back on Topic:



the second is probably a repost xD
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:25   Link #26355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru View Post
I just mad that they used Signum for the Worf Effect, not someone else.
I'll have to disagree, that I don't believe the Word effect is in play. Worf was consistently beat down by the new baddie of the week, while this is Signum's first real defeat. In every series, the writer needs to establish the antagonists as threatening, and it is quite legitimate to do that by having them beat down a hero or two; Signum just lost the lot here.

If Signum is repeatedly beat down by each new baddie from here on out, then I'd call it the Worf effect. But I think we're jumping the gun a bit.

If what happens is what I think might happen, that the real baddies, the scientist group, shows up and claims Thoma while managing to hold off or beat down the Hucks and the TSAB, then you're going to see something similar. People will need to get beat down to show that the scientist group is a threat.

Jail did something similar in strikers, when he beat down several of our heroes and the TSAB in general with the peace conference attack. It pretty much needed to happen, because up til then, the drones were mostly jokes; it only took a little training to prep mages for destroying them.

Are the people who are complaining about Signum, also raising complaints about Shamal and Zafira? He got beat down fairly easily, and yet got out of bed while still injured to help turn the tide in the final battle (the capture of Otto was what began to tilt things in favor of the TSAB).
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:31   Link #26356
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Well, I mentioned this on TV Tropes, but the Nanoha series generally plays around with people losing, and justifying it with sneak attacks, more numbers, using weird magic, etc, etc. A lot of those cases are for the 'Worfenritter'. But this is one of the only times they've had someone lose outright because their opponent is stronger, so naturally it feels weird.

I dunno why more people aren't blaming Touma, since his flashback took up more than half of that chapter that could have been spent on the fight. >_>
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:33   Link #26357
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Are the people who are complaining about Signum, also raising complaints about Shamal and Zafira? He got beat down fairly easily, and yet got out of bed while still injured to help turn the tide in the final battle (the capture of Otto was what began to tilt things in favor of the TSAB).
Somewhat similar to Vivio, they don't have much to loss, but i still find it jarring anyway(i'm trying to find how the hell Otto can pass through Shamal's shields, but it pisses me off specially for Zafira, the guy have barely screentime before and the first important thing he do is being slaughtered into olbivion by Deed xP), Shamal is not the fighting type so it's understandable that she gets beaten by someone able to pass throught her protections or quick enough to take her by surprise(like Chrno in A's), Zafria unfortunately have less of a justification, the poor guy gets worfed clean and simple T-T. Signum's character has constructed a reputation over the course of the seasons, that was what makes this blow utter devastating, now she's going to start from zero.

By this point the Worfenritter are starting to look like a bunch of disposable heroes wannabe.
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Old 2010-11-29, 14:34   Link #26358
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...man, you really do have a pessimistic view on this, don't you? It's not like this is Future Tense - yet.
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Old 2010-11-29, 15:01   Link #26359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Somewhat similar to Vivio, they don't have much to loss, but i still find it jarring anyway(i'm trying to find how the hell Otto can pass through Shamal's shields, but it pisses me off specially for Zafira, the guy have barely screentime before and the first important thing he do is being slaughtered into olbivion by Deed xP), Shamal is not the fighting type so it's understandable that she gets beaten by someone able to pass throught her protections or quick enough to take her by surprise(like Chrno in A's), Zafria unfortunately have less of a justification, the poor guy gets worfed clean and simple T-T. Signum's character has constructed a reputation over the course of the seasons, that was what makes this blow utter devastating, now she's going to start from zero.

By this point the Worfenritter are starting to look like a bunch of disposable heroes wannabe.
WOAH! Calm down!

Shee!

Worfing only happens if you lose fight after fight!

A single loss is NOT worfing someone.

Signum loses once, people say she was worfed. No, she wasn't. She was just beaten.

Vita and Fate are the Worfs of Nanoha.

Really, Fate hasn't won a fight cleanly since S1 (she pulled out her Bankai shonen upgrade on Tre and Sette to beat them). And Vita? When was the last time she beat someone who was remotely tough? A's?
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Old 2010-11-29, 15:02   Link #26360
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Doodz, manga thread dat way yo ->
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