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Old 2011-11-17, 14:37   Link #30881
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
To be blunt, she's a Mary Sue. It's why I don't care for her very much.
Sounds like my kind of character xD!

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Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
I'd recommend to skip the anime and go right to the original VM. Or at least, the manga. Both are available in English AFAIK.
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
I refute this recommendation. There is nothing wrong with the Tsukihime anime. Die hard fans hate it only because it doesn't follow the novel 100%. I'll admit it has its weaknesses but all in all it's fairly faithful adaptation of Arcueid's route. So much so that when I played her VN route I skipped most of it because the anime covered it already.

Definitely play the VN, though. It'll give you the chance to persue the better heroines.
I think i can agree with Raiser here because depite the hate for the first Fate/Stay Night anime series i found it pretty awesome, i like the series and the battles were amazing, i also got annoyed by Shorou but that didn't impede me from enjoying Saber's awesome feats of badassery as also her more tender scenes.

I don't know if my PC can't stand the visual novels but sounds fun xD

*in search of a new unbeatable badass to cheer on*
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Old 2011-11-17, 16:49   Link #30882
Koveras Alvane
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
I refute this recommendation. There is nothing wrong with the Tsukihime anime. Die hard fans hate it only because it doesn't follow the novel 100%. I'll admit it has its weaknesses but all in all it's fairly faithful adaptation of Arcueid's route. So much so that when I played her VN route I skipped most of it because the anime covered it already.

Definitely play the VN, though. It'll give you the chance to persue the better heroines.
You are attributing to me the fandom attitudes that I have never expressed. ^^; I merely recommended to go for the source, just as I would have recommended to read Lord of the Rings and watch Blade Runner first.

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I don't know if my PC can't stand the visual novels but sounds fun xD
Dude, Microsoft Word gobbles up more resources than Tsukihime VN.
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Old 2011-11-17, 17:32   Link #30883
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You recomended he skip it entirely, though. I agree that checking out the source material first is a good way to go, but the anime is still worth a watch.

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Old 2011-11-17, 17:55   Link #30884
Justin_Brett
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To be blunt, she's a Mary Sue. It's why I don't care for her very much.
Um, no she isn't? If you don't like her, okay, but don't attribute something to her that isn't true to say why.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:06   Link #30885
Keroko
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By fanfiction standards, she's a mary sue. If I were to write a character like her, I'd be burned to the ground unless I pulled it off really well. The problem is that mary sue is a term invented for fanfiction, and as such should not be applied to official works, as 90% of the characters in official works would qualify.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:07   Link #30886
Anh_Minh
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Isn't a Mary-Sue supposed to be a lot more popular than she is?
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:10   Link #30887
Sunder the Gold
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^ Thanks xD *putting Tsukihime in the xmas watchlist*
If you mean the Tsukihime anime, you might want to re-think that. It's... not that great. Or accurate.

I said "original series", but I was thinking "original visual-novel".

As an alternative, you might look for the Tsukihime manga, which is much truer to the original game and actually reveals a few more things that the game didn't.

Even the manga is not truly a replacement for the VN, though.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:11   Link #30888
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Isn't a Mary-Sue supposed to be a lot more popular than she is?
Popular with who? Fans who have more than two braincells to rub together or the unthinking, pseudo-lobotomized masses that populate most of fanfiction sites out there? >.>
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:16   Link #30889
Sunder the Gold
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
By fanfiction standards, she's a mary sue. If I were to write a character like her, I'd be burned to the ground unless I pulled it off really well. The problem is that mary sue is a term invented for fanfiction, and as such should not be applied to official works, as 90% of the characters in official works would qualify.
This.

Also, Mary Sues tend to be polarizing in their own world. People who hate them are invariably evil or become so, and people who are good invariably like them.

This doesn't apply to Arcueid except in the minds of fans, because Ciel and Akiha are not evil, yet both of them are openly hostile to Arcueid.

Even Shiki, though he comes to think of her as a friend or lover, thinks she's too often a very annoying idiot. A Mary Sue wouldn't have such flaws, or at least no one would hold them against her.

Also, he holds her accountable when the rare occasion comes up that she abuses her power. If she were a Mary Sue, he would agree that her actions were perfectly justified.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:19   Link #30890
Keroko
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Isn't a Mary-Sue supposed to be a lot more popular than she is?
It's a term that's gotten garbled over the years, but these days it basically boils down to an original character who enters an established universe and takes over the lead role. This can happen by said character being stronger, more popular, smarter or all of these at once, or by the character having some plotline that makes him/her central to the story.

But, again, this only applies to fanfiction. To try and pass mary sue judgment on canonical characters is ludicrous. There are other, far better ways to determine whether canon characters are bad characters.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:24   Link #30891
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It's a term that's gotten garbled over the years, but these days it basically boils down to an original character who enters an established universe and takes over the lead role. This can happen by said character being stronger, more popular, smarter or all of these at once, or by the character having some plotline that makes him/her central to the story.
Here's an excellent example of all of these things; a recent offering on the fanfiction thread.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...81#post3835881

I was sorry to point this out to the guy, as he honestly didn't seem to realize what sort of monster he had created. But he needed to know.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:37   Link #30892
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Now having said what I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with creating new characters central to the story. Indeed, I've read many works that had new characters central to the story and they were great reads.

It's just the line between character and mary sue is an incredibly blurry one. One just as subject to the skill of the author as the whims of his readers.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:39   Link #30893
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Being the most powerful creature in the world that no one can defeat is a huge enough Mary Sue flag. On top of that it's noted constantly how beautiful she is, and any flaws are portrayed as good things and it fully expects us to absolutely adore her. Any resentment on Ciel or Akiha's end can be, and often is, interpreted as their jealously of Arcueid's perfection.

She's not annoying enough to make me hate her, but she's by far my least favourite Tsukihime heroine.

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Old 2011-11-17, 18:44   Link #30894
Sunder the Gold
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Now having said what I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with creating new characters central to the story. Indeed, I've read many works that had new characters central to the story and they were great reads.
I agree.

But when that new charater is central to the new plot because he's recieved the Artifact of Power that leaves everyone else in awe despite their own artifacts of power, and when he's the smartest, most responsible, and most sarcastically witty character, and the leader of his school's battle-sports team, and he makes all of the canonical girls swoon with his rogish charm...

It's clear that the line has been well and truly crossed.


By contrast, I read a Cowboy Bebop fic ("Legend of a Cowgirl") where a grown-up bounty hunter Ed teams up and falls in love with another bounty hunter who is an original character.

And while he's got skills, it's only enough so that he's useful and competive as an equal. He impresses Ed and the readers, but he doesn't overawe Ed or overshadow her.

Also, she falls in love with him only relunctantly, because as smooth and charming as he is, he's also a flawed human being, which means there are a lot of points to him that just irritate her.

It was the best possible kind of "canon character / original character" pair-up fic, especially since the pairing wasn't the dominating thread of the whole story.
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Old 2011-11-17, 18:50   Link #30895
Justin_Brett
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Being the most powerful creature in the world that no one can defeat is a huge enough Mary Sue flag. On top of that it's noted constantly how beautiful she is, and any flaws are portrayed as good things and it fully expects us to absolutely adore her. Any resentment on Ciel or Akiha's end can be, and often is, interpreted as their jealously of Arcueid's perfection.
She was created to be powerful though, since she was an executioner. And most of her being really powerful is either just in the background or as an antagonist, because of Shiki's interference. And yeah, she's noted as beautiful a lot - because she's an unearthly vampire. It's not like those are just random traits she has.
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Old 2011-11-17, 20:46   Link #30896
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Arcueid sounds invincible, but Shiki can kill her. Not sure whether I want to spoiler why he can, but yes, he's the only one known in his universe.
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Old 2011-11-17, 21:13   Link #30897
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Yeah, he can kill her... temporarily. Remember when it happened the first time? Sliced into 17 pieces of meat and she got better. Hell, Roa full out killed her, her body disappeared and everything...

But the cat came back, the very next day. The cat came back, thought she was a goner but the cat came back, she just wouldn't stay awaaaaay...

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Old 2011-11-17, 22:10   Link #30898
Justin_Brett
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Why is she a Mary Sue for being powerful when you can wave a stick in the Nasuverse and hit someone who's ridiculously broken, anyway. Seems arbitrary.
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Old 2011-11-17, 22:18   Link #30899
Craxuan
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No, he can kill her permanently (Actually screw it, I'll just spoiler this it's explained in the early stages of the VN anyway). When Shiki first sliced her to pieces he traced the 'lines of death' which usually is fatal to anyone, but since Arcueid is so powerful she did not die, tried to reattach her limbs to save energy but could not and was forced to recreate her body from concept (that is to reconstruct her body from imagination).

That is the 'line' of death at least. There is also the 'point' of death, which is the point of existence of something, and when destroyed will wipe out the existence absolutely from the past, presence and future, leaving nothing behind.

Shiki can see these lines on Arcueid during daytime (When a vampire is at its weakest), but when it's night he wasn't (or barely) able to see them at all due to the fact that her power is at peak, even with his supernatural assassin abilities.

Arcueid can be killed though even at night and blood berserk, and you'll know how Shiki did it if you read the VN. One of the best dark stories I've read, but you must change the old OST to the enhanced ones or I can't guarantee your sanity. It took me just ten minutes before I had to tear off my headphone and cool off somewhere when I first read it; the monotonous piano play (Perfect for the story though) absolutely drives people sick.
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Old 2011-11-17, 22:38   Link #30900
Justin_Brett
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Sadly, doing that doesn't get rid of the horribly out of place ending song.
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