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Old 2011-01-30, 17:58   Link #15941
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Well, that and Signum's whole "LOLtanking" of Fate's attacks instead of dodging.

EVERY SINGLE PART OF ME WAS SCREAMING "DODGE!"

Look where that got her in Force.
I still fail to see any dissapointment here other than "yes, her defenses are so great that she can shrug off photon lancer like nothing" to be fair that also annoyed me(and i hated the Wolkenritter during the two first episodes of A's, fortunately that change very quickly). But that was only Signum having confidence in her defensive powers. She even praises Fate and admit that if not for the gap between their powers she wouldn't be able to do that(ond probably have actually DODGED the attack, when things become fair she didn't repeat the same thing again as we can see when Fate uses plasma lancer on her, signum clearly avoid the attack and is even in the need to respond with an attack of her own to destroy the lightning pikes).

Oh, and also she never tanks against Cypha, her defense fail, that's for sure but during the entire battle she never tank any of Cypha's attacks(ironically it's Cypha herself who does the "tank" thing). One of the things that annoys me is the amount of clumsiness Signum displayed during said fight. Cypha destroys Laevatein and she just ..stands there waiting to be slashed like a turkey. Specially jarring taking into consideration how she's showed to be quicker than Cypha before. While Signum defeats Fate on their first encounter Fate wasn't by any means clumsy, she showed to be an so excellent and skilled fighter that even Signum recognizes it despite the gap.

EDIT: Page claimed for Dojikko Signum.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:01   Link #15942
Justin_Brett
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Originally Posted by al103 View Post
What they did WAS evil. Just not 'ritters themselves, they understood that what they do is wrong but couldn't go against circumstances, so they just were weak willed... and stupid - they should have started and ended with those giant animals.
The TSAB probably would have still came after them, and they didn't exactly have a loose time frame.

And a term for what you mean in your first quote would be antivillain: someone who uses evil means to a good or selfless end. By that definition, the Wolkies were certainly 'evil'.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:03   Link #15943
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Actually, my viewpoint is, "It doesn't matter if someone sees them as evil or not; what matters is hearing the full story first. Can we hold off judgment, guys? Because there is a lot of different ways that may make us not condemn them so much."
Condemning and them being evil are two completely different things.

They are evil, there is no 'speculations' about that, as we have multiple exemples of massacres by the huckbeins (Touma's village, the 10 or so towns destroyed that fate/teana were investigating, the nuns).

However, it's not because they are evil that we can't empathize with them, or even sort of understand them. We just have to be aware that liking someone doesn't make them any less Evil.

When the huckbein use their infection as an excuse to kill people- and yes, they do use it as an excuse- then they are evil.

Also, they did commit massacre in TSAB territory.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:11   Link #15944
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I think the true determining factor will come when they are cured for the virus.

The Huckebein kill out of necessity. They have to sate the virus, or they have to eliminate witnesses during a job. Take away all that, the ones who decide to keep on killing regardless will truely be the 'evil' ones.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:11   Link #15945
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
And before that, got a Scythe to the neck. She still repeated it later. =)
Both of which ended in failure. Nanoha's real tried-and-true method is to blast her unreasonable enemies into submission, and then hear their story.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:13   Link #15946
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You're not thinking like the Bureau (and the Wolkenritter killed people, too). Remember, the Bureau's main goal is to rehabilitate people, not kill them. They only imprisoned Jail, Uno, and Quattro, despite them causing some death and a LOT of destruction.

You rehabilitate people and you solve the problem of them re-offending. Find a place for them in society. Sure, the Hucks may have to spend some time in captivity (Lutecia and the Numbers did). But you always give your enemy the option. Back them into a corner, and they'll just fight harder.
They were given the option. The Hucks just said 'screw your surrender.'

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Actually, my viewpoint is, "It doesn't matter if someone sees them as evil or not; what matters is hearing the full story first. Can we hold off judgment, guys? Because there is a lot of different ways that may make us not condemn them so much."
Unless said story reveals all the people they killed were all wanted criminals, hearing a sob story will not change my view that their actions at up to that point were evil any more then it changed my view about the Wolkies.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:16   Link #15947
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They were given the option. The Hucks just said 'screw your surrender.'
More than that. They told the Wolfram to surrender. How arrogant do you have to be?
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:20   Link #15948
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
However, it's not because they are evil that we can't empathize with them, or even sort of understand them. We just have to be aware that liking someone doesn't make them any less Evil.
This.

I like the wolkenritter but thats not make their crimes any less evil. They were killars on many worlds, that doesen't change, absolute orders or not. watching them trying to save Hayate and attempting to amend for their crimes helps me A LOT to start symphatizing with these guys(when the only thing i know about them was "it's a group of guys stronger than Nanoha and Co. who strip mages of their power to fill an evil book" i used to think that they're a bunch of jerks, their very correctly timed backstory saves them from become a group of sccrapies). the same way is with the Huckebein, being syphatetic is not directly related with being evil, i like villains of various stories but that not makes them any more less evil. they're villains now, if that change it only depends of future changes on the story.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
And right now both sides have taken their stance, and no amount of argument between them can sway each other. The only thing that can change them is what the story presents to us.
And this. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

We can argue on this forever but our theories only can be cemented or crumbled to pieces by the story itself. there's a LOT of times that i disagree with the ending of an anime(well, to be fair, most anime endings are crappy in general) or with a plot twist but at the end is the view of the writer the only thing that affect directly the outcome of characters/stories(for example i really can't buy the idea of Shana abandoning her life as a Flame Haze and becoming a normal girl just for the sake of "love", but that is apparently the author's feeling and i can't do a thing to change that).

If someone wants to continue on this fine. You can have the last word if you will but this is just endless.
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Old 2011-01-30, 18:39   Link #15949
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While normally I love debates, I'll let this be my last word on the subject, heh.

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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Both of which ended in failure. Nanoha's real tried-and-true method is to blast her unreasonable enemies into submission, and then hear their story.
What I was getting at, was that Nanoha's tried and true technique is to offer to hear the other side out first, and "even if we can't avoid fighting, I'd at least like to hear your story." It was something I liked about Rayearth, since the girls in the second season made it a point to listen to their enemies and find out why they were fighting.

Still, regardless of the success or failure, it's just something you do. It's something they've done before. And I loved the next generation continuing it, with Erio and Caro reaching out to Lu, and Teana reaching out to Nove.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They were given the option. The Hucks just said 'screw your surrender.'
Not quite. They were just told to surrender. They weren't told: "We know you have an infection, and we want to negotiate. We want to end hostilities and find a way for us all to co-exist. But if you reject this offer of a negotiated true, we will have to respond."

Something like that. The Hucks were basically, "We're not operating in TSAB space, so you have no jurisdiction. We tend to leave you alone, even though you won't do so in kind. If you insist on fighting us, we WILL respond and any extra deaths will be on your conscience."

Yeah, telling someone to just outright surrender only works if you currently hold overwhelming power over them. It may make you feel good, but it's pointless. It's interesting that, given the overwhelming power Hucks have over mages, that they didn't demand their enemies surrender, nor did much besides poking them enough to go away.

Quote:
Unless said story reveals all the people they killed were all wanted criminals, hearing a sob story will not change my view that their actions at up to that point were evil any more then it changed my view about the Wolkies.
As I said, what if the nuns attacked Veyron? What if that village was the result of a mob that attacked them? Hell, what if they weren't really responsible for that village at all? Fortis already indicated that there was someone else out there killing villages.

At any rate, as I said, I'll let this go for now. I am waiting for the Huck's "It was a Small Wish" episode to show me how and why they came to be how they are. I don't see killing itself as evil, since me being alive today means someone dies by default. It's the circumstances surrounding the death, and what drove someone to kill, that will shape my opinion of who is evil and who is merely fighting to survive.
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Old 2011-01-30, 19:06   Link #15950
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
I think the true determining factor will come when they are cured for the virus.

The Huckebein kill out of necessity. They have to sate the virus, or they have to eliminate witnesses during a job. Take away all that, the ones who decide to keep on killing regardless will truely be the 'evil' ones.
Except they don't.

If they killed out of Necessity, they would join up in a war they feel is just, and kill people that way.

What they do, however, is masssacre random villages or random passerby, then try to either dodge or kill the authorities.
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Old 2011-01-30, 19:11   Link #15951
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Except they don't.

If they killed out of Necessity, they would join up in a war they feel is just, and kill people that way.

What they do, however, is masssacre random villages or random passerby, then try to either dodge or kill the authorities.
Killing because you'd turn into a lump of flesh if you don't makes it a necessity no matter which way you slice it.

And they do enlist their services for conflicts. They function as mercernaries for whoever needs them. If, while on a job, it requires them to destroy a village or two, that's just part of the job description. Look at Golgo 13. Would you call him evil? Not really, he just does what it takes to get the job done.

But there's another example showing our morality is hardly absolute. It's okay to kill people in a war, apparently, and it's also okay to kill other criminals. It's a fundamental hypocracy of society.
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:26   Link #15952
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Just to get off of Force for a moment.

Whoever made this post on /m/ is probably my favorite Nanoha fan of all time right now.
Truth.

Despite nothing much 'happens', it's pretty tightly written and composed.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that the world-building is ViviD's only really great factor. It's tight composition works wonders with some showing of the fight scenes and subtle hintings as well, but it's mixed in with a pace that is not too flattering.

It's 'real', so to speak, because ViviD rarely forces any instances where it 'tells instead of showing' and thus the moments of world-building feel natural ( no 2 pages of blahblahblah exercise facilities blahblah, but rather actual pages dedicated to showing them going to these places and training ) but sometimes it doesn't tread the balance very well.

In my opinion, partly due to the fact that the medium isn't just used for world-building, but also trying to cram in as much unseen character development for characters like Numbers, etc, which pushes things a little too dense while spreading the flow too thinly.
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Old 2011-01-30, 21:34   Link #15953
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I agree with Nightengale.

I don't think Vivid is bad; indeed, I like all the world-building stuff. It's just the blatant fanservice and very light plot that is going on. I was hoping for more of a background plot thread, linking the whole Claus/Olive thing to the present day, beyond just the Vivio/Ein bonding. Like the dreams revealing plot points that would become relevant later.

I was also hope that there being more people around descended from Ancient Belkans like Victoria, to perhaps tie into this. A centuries old grudge or something.

Until then, I'll just enjoy it for what I can get out of it, while not expecting too much.
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Old 2011-01-30, 22:28   Link #15954
dahak
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Are they in TSAB territory?
Since when did Vaizen [Alto and Touma's homeworld] where they blew away Touma's home village and Ruwella where they murdered nuns and attacked Signum to kidnap Touma, Isis and Lily stop being TSAB territory?
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Old 2011-01-30, 22:33   Link #15955
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Since when did Vaizen [Alto and Touma's homeworld] where they blew away Touma's home village and Ruwella where they murdered nuns and attacked Signum to kidnap Touma, Isis and Lily stop being TSAB territory?
Vaizen was where they were testing the weapons, which was the home of a corporation; the TSAB might not have total jurisdiction there. Also note that we don't know where this battle is taking place, nor what planet Touma was on when he was nabbed, nor what planet that village was on that Cypha hit, etc. Touma, Lily, and Isis were grabbed, knocked out, and taken aboard a space ship. One that could have flown to another planet altogether as well.

And even if the TSAB has some jurisdiction, remember that it's not total. Orussia is an administered planet, and yet they still allow a bloodbath of a civil war to go on. And even on Mid-childa, the Saint Church has their own territory they administer, where the TSAB technically doesn't have authority.
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Old 2011-01-30, 22:48   Link #15956
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Since when did Vaizen [Alto and Touma's homeworld] where they blew away Touma's home village and Ruwella where they murdered nuns and attacked Signum to kidnap Touma, Isis and Lily stop being TSAB territory?
I've seen at least 3 people say this recently, but you're wrong:

The Huckebein didn't destroy Thoma's village on Vaizen. They were there, yes, but they didn't destroy the place. Fortis says as much and assures Thoma that if they were responsible, there'd be no survivors.
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Old 2011-01-30, 23:00   Link #15957
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Since when did Vaizen [Alto and Touma's homeworld] where they blew away Touma's home village and Ruwella where they murdered nuns and attacked Signum to kidnap Touma, Isis and Lily stop being TSAB territory?
I like their way of doing things. They still lack a little of sinism and cruelty, but they're good.
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Old 2011-01-30, 23:24   Link #15958
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Yeah, telling someone to just outright surrender only works if you currently hold overwhelming power over them. It may make you feel good, but it's pointless. It's interesting that, given the overwhelming power Hucks have over mages, that they didn't demand their enemies surrender, nor did much besides poking them enough to go away.
>Signum attempts to arrest Cypha for openly admitting to the murder of at least several hundred people
>Cypha horribly maims her

>Isis attempts to rescue Touma from having to associate with people intent on basically brainwashing him
>Deville attempts to decapitate her

Real kid glove stuff.

And for anyone who wants to compare them to the Wolkenritter again, I should point something out: before that episode of As, they were already shown to be more than just bad guys through interactions with themselves and Hayate. The Hucks haven't had more than two pages or so with each-other. Some of them even seem to dislike the others.
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Old 2011-01-30, 23:35   Link #15959
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
>Signum attempts to arrest Cypha for openly admitting to the murder of at least several hundred people
>Cypha horribly maims her
To correct the record, Signum wasn't maimed. Badly injured, but note that Cypha didn't kill her. A simple decapitation would have done it.

Quote:
>Isis attempts to rescue Touma from having to associate with people intent on basically brainwashing him
>Deville attempts to decapitate her
You have a better point here, but this is off the main point, which was the Hucks poking the Bureau to leave them alone. Stella said it herself, "Damage them just enough to make them give up, business as usual." Isis wasn't Bureau, and from their perspective, Touma was already family, and Isis was a bigger threat to Arnage than the Bureau usually was to the Hucks. It's all fine and dandy when you're not threatened, but once there is a threat, kid gloves do come off.

And regarding that point...

Quote:
And for anyone who wants to compare them to the Wolkenritter again, I should point something out: before that episode of As, they were already shown to be more than just bad guys through interactions with themselves and Hayate. The Hucks haven't had more than two pages or so with each-other. Some of them even seem to dislike the others.
The Hucks have been joking and teasing each other like I'd expect a family to. Not sure where you get the "some seem to dislike the others" part. And even if you want to go that route, Vita certainly seemed to show a certain antagonism towards Signum early on.
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Old 2011-01-30, 23:41   Link #15960
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Vita flat out said that she didn't like the other Wolkenritter in the past.

Hell, one Sound Stage she damn near attacked Reinforce in the past.
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