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Old 2011-01-30, 23:53   Link #15961
Justin_Brett
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She certainly wasn't trying NOT to kill her, either, nor did she explicitly give her an opportunity to surrender after she became an actual threat. They might have rules as a whole, but that doesn't stop them from being genuinely evil while alone.

I was talking mostly about Veyron and possibly Cypha. They don't really seem like the type to get along with others, and the former only actually smiled once Karen showed up; maybe she's the whole reason he's there in the first place.
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Old 2011-01-31, 00:10   Link #15962
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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Zest in StrikerS? What reason did HE have for not taking Lutecia to the Bureau and giving them the information about Megane?
Didn't he think Regius had betrayed him at the instructions of the Brains?

Not to mention the whole TSAB Brains having created Jail and having turned Lutecia over to Jail bits.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Funny you should say this, when Lindy was prepared to do just that in A's. It's only because they found another solution that they didn't need to.
Notably she was right because that would have included killing a smaller number of people to save the rest of Earth's population.

Rather than the Huckbein's killing lots of other people to save a few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
But seriously, the Hucks have been labeled "The poison that will destroy the world" by the Bureau.
That was what Karen and Cypher called them, not the bureau.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Much like Signum and Vita, the Hucks are going out of their way to not kill.
Tell that to the nuns Veyron killed to prevent Touma seeking help from TSAB. If they were going out of their way not to kill, he shouldn't have been there in the first place. Remember he said their deaths were useless, which implies he didn't need to kill them.

Or the villagers on Easter. That's several times their number in casualties in the last few days.

Plus 79 casualties on Fedika Cypher brushed off without explanation when Signum tried to talk her down before their fight.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
To a degree, I feel RF6's approach here is evil. They didn't come out and say, "Look, you guys are killing people. We understand you're infected with something, and we'd like to help. If you can at least stand down, perhaps we can talk and come to some sort of understanding."
This is not TSAB's first contact with Huckbein [They lost a dozen officers in the incident on Fedikia three months before Force started.]. And unlike Fate, The Wolkenritter or the Numbers, Huckbein have been both indiscriminately killing civilians and killing to prevent Touma from seeking TSAB help.

Even so Signum and Teana were both intending to capture or contain rather than kill. Signum tries to talk Cypher down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
The Huckebein didn't destroy Thoma's village on Vaizen. They were there, yes, but they didn't destroy the place. Fortis says as much and assures Thoma that if they were responsible, there'd be no survivors.
Assuming Fortis is correct, TSAB knows that how?
As opposed to Subaru having an eyewitness account from Touma, placing them on site?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Vaizen was where they were testing the weapons, which was the home of a corporation; the TSAB might not have total jurisdiction there.
It is one of the Administered worlds [number 3] and Special Force 6 has a base there. Of course they have no jurisdiction there.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
nor what planet Touma was on when he was nabbed
Ruwella. Administered world 23.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
nor what planet that village was on that Cypha hit
Fedika, Administered World 12. The same one Shario and Teana were investigating the Airport fire on.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
One that could have flown to another planet altogether as well.
Hot pursuit and an attempt to rescue kidnap victims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Orussia is an administered planet, and yet they still allow a bloodbath of a civil war to go on.
Possibly because it doesn't involve Lost Logia, Dimensional Terrorism or an actual crime.

And I'll point out we don't actually know that TSAB is allowing it rather than just being unable to prevent it, either due to internal civil wars not being their business or lack of ground forces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Saint Church has their own territory they administer, where the TSAB technically doesn't have authority.
There is no evidence TSAB has no authority there. Carim being a TSAB Flag rank officer as well as or due to being head of state implies the contrary.
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Old 2011-01-31, 00:33   Link #15963
Justin_Brett
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Yeah, people keep bringing that civil war thing up, but it's kinda hard to stop one of those without it escalating out of control. Conflicts like that are tricky things.
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Old 2011-01-31, 02:12   Link #15964
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I would like to point out one crucial difference between the Wolkies and the Hucks.

The Wolkies were doing what they were doing to save someone else, which is Hayate. The Hucks are doing what they are doing, to save themselves.

As mentioned before, it's really about the circumstances that determine on whether we can sympathise with them or not (or at least consider sympathising with them).

Also, just to point out something. It's not always evil to kill, and you don't always need to kill in order to be evil. It's all about the intentions and motives.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-01-31, 02:25   Link #15965
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Not save each other? Have they not watched some of their family members die horribly?
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Old 2011-01-31, 02:36   Link #15966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alavon View Post
Is it just me or does Karen look an awful lot like an older...Isis?

Holy crap, you are right.

...sorry, late to the party. -__-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Edit: By the standards I'm hearing, the Wolkenritter are evil. They killed, possibly more than the Hucks ever did. They don't have an excuse, either, since it is shown very deliberately that they can decide to go against their master's wishes. So everyone they killed was a result of a choice they made.

Signum is evil.
Obligatory fanboy's response to deliberate trolling: No, she is not. The Wolkies were evil before meeting Hayate, if only because they reflected their masters' morality (who were all greedy and selfish, as we are told). However, the line that marked their transition from evil to good was when they gained their independence and willingly chose to atone for what they were forced to do, even if that jeopardized their chance to spend their remaining lives with their beloved last master. Being good/evil is not about doing or not doing evil things. Being good means taking responsibility for the evil things you did out of necessity. Being evil means just not giving a damn about damage you cause.

At this point, however, we must cut the Hucks some slack because they have never really had a chance to make a free, conscious decision towards atonement or further descent into evilness yet. So they are evil at the moment, but their individual true natures will only come out once they've mastered their infection.

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
The Wolkies were doing what they were doing to save someone else, which is Hayate. The Hucks are doing what they are doing, to save themselves.
I think the argument about Evil!Wolkies mainly concerned their actions before Hayate, when they simply carried out orders without regard to their ethics.
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Old 2011-01-31, 02:37   Link #15967
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Not save each other? Have they not watched some of their family members die horribly?
Has it ever been stated canonically that they can transfer the kills over? Meaning, if Veyron kills someone, it can help Stella? All circumstantial evidence so far seem to indicate that the kills are self-only.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-01-31, 03:20   Link #15968
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I think you missed the point, they don't want each other to die horribly
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Old 2011-01-31, 03:45   Link #15969
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
I think you missed the point, they don't want each other to die horribly
Are they forcing each other to kill people? As far as I know, there is only peer pressure to kill. They're not exactly bending each other's arm to snuff people out. The decision to kill still lies with the person who did it, unless the Eclipse Infection completely overrides the person's decision making.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-01-31, 06:03   Link #15970
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Jeez, this is still going on?

I skipped most of the posts only reading whatever catch my attention. I'm officially done with the debate over the Hucks morality. My reasons are explained enough and i give spoecial thanks to DezoPenguin, Tiresias and Skane who offered some very well writen arguments to support our shared point of view.

The only thing mentioned that stills bug me is that theory of Cypha supposedly left Signum alive on purpouse. Excuse me but i find that very unlikely, it's clear that the attack was with the intent of killing signum, Cypha stated it, besides, she has no means to know if Signum will be able to survive such punishment, she BARELY survives the attack and that was find out AFTER the medical team took here from the scene. I'll think Cypha will be a little bit surprised when Signum returns and saying something among the lines of "Oh, so you managed to survive huh? ...this time i will make sure to check it out myself". Cypha didn't know anything about Signum as she treats her as a total stranger. Also if her intention was to not kill Signum then her "message" she wanted to send to the TSAB wouldn't make sense.

I concede you trying to elaborate freudian excuses for the Huckebein but c'mon this one in particular is very silly.
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Old 2011-01-31, 07:18   Link #15971
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
I've seen at least 3 people say this recently, but you're wrong:

The Huckebein didn't destroy Thoma's village on Vaizen. They were there, yes, but they didn't destroy the place. Fortis says as much and assures Thoma that if they were responsible, there'd be no survivors.
Just correcting this- this current chapter as much as show that Karen, the huck's leader, was the one doing the massacre of touma's village.

And the huck don't kill people (or even animals) in controlled situation with legality on their side.

They randomly go into isolated villages and kill everyone there (because they don't want witnesses).

It's like saying 'they need to kill people to survive, and it's their right to choose to kill random civilians, so *of course* they need to make sure no one survive because witness could leave the wrong ideas.'

Sure.

No matter what, the huck *chose* to live the way they do.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:43   Link #15972
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
The only thing mentioned that stills bug me is that theory of Cypha supposedly left Signum alive on purpouse.
It's entirely plausable. There are ways of making absolutely sure that your opponent won't be getting back up, ways that Cypha didn't do. She had to pull her sword out of Signum's gut and she would have noticed she was still breathing. It would be short work to just lob her head off or put a strike through her heart. But she didn't.

It's more like Cypha just didn't care if her blows were fatal or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Just correcting this- this current chapter as much as show that Karen, the huck's leader, was the one doing the massacre of touma's village.
No, Thoma only saw Karen and Veyron standing there, and that's the flashback we see. Doesn't mean they were the one's who destroyed everything.
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Old 2011-01-31, 08:58   Link #15973
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
No, Thoma only saw Karen and Veyron standing there, and that's the flashback we see. Doesn't mean they were the one's who destroyed everything.
Didn't Fortis actually admit that the Hucks were there but only to see who was moving in on their turf rather than destroy stuff?
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Old 2011-01-31, 13:10   Link #15974
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Without trying to get back into the morality debate, there are a few other points I'd like to address.

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Originally Posted by dahak View Post
Rather than the Huckbein's killing lots of other people to save a few.
Lots of lawless stuff happens in the Wild West. Lots of people can get a kind of culture shock when taken from a nice, clean life, and get exposed to how other people must live. The "kill or be killed" kind of world. You know, the idealistic ones ending up in a cynical universe. Those types of people are called naive, and are at best, ineffectual. At worst, they are dangerous to those around them.

"Gotta learn quick, kiddo, that it's a kill or be killed world. If you don't want to lose your head, you'll learn not to hesitate in the future and do what you have to do to survive."

Quote:
That was what Karen and Cypher called them, not the bureau.
Lily notes she is a poison, too. Regardless of where the term originated, it wouldn't take long for people to called the Eclipse-infected a "poison that will destroy us!"

Quote:
Or the villagers on Easter. That's several times their number in casualties in the last few days.
You're getting your wires crossed. Much like Touma's village, there were people left alive in those villages, which implies the Hucks weren't responsible. There is another group out there doing the killing, which may or may not be eclipse-infected.

Much like the Bureau, you've allowed yourself to be hoodwinked into believing the wrong party is at fault. Essentially, the Hucks are being framed.

Quote:
Plus 79 casualties on Fedika Cypher brushed off without explanation when Signum tried to talk her down before their fight.
Again, I wouldn't take this at face value. Given the fact that there are other Eclipse-infected people out there, and Cypha's nature, it is possible she wasn't responsible and was just trying to goad Signum into fighting. An angered opponent is one that leaves more openings. It's interesting to note that Veyron did something similar with Touma.

Also, we don't know the full circumstances of that. That world was an uninhabited one, and perhaps the Hucks were using it as a home; no people around, and they could just kill animals. Along come people to try and populate it, and they show up in the area at the wrong time because of the virus compelling them, and... boom, tragedy strikes.

I'd wait for more definite proof first, but that's just me.

It's also interesting to note that conversation between Cypha and Signum, the latter of whom outright said she'd kill Cypha. Cypha then responded, "I can't think of you as a public servant." She also declared that the TSAB would have no problems erasing Lily, which makes me wonder if they perhaps sought help from the Bureau before, and the result was simply to have them killed. "Sorry, can't cure you, but we can kill you so you can't kill anyone else."

Quote:
This is not TSAB's first contact with Huckbein. They lost a dozen officers in the incident on Fedikia three months before Force started.
Again, which might not have been the Hucks. You're trying to attribute everything to them, when it's very likely that's not the case. It's either a fairly nice framing job, or else a "wrong place at the wrong time" type of thing for the Hucks. And even then, we don't know that the Bureau even tried talking to them. Most likely a case of "We think you did it, surrender and come with us."

How many stories have we seen where the wrong person gets accused, but refuses to surrender in an attempt to prove their innocence? Possibly because the authorities they are familiar with have been crooked or corrupt?

Quote:
And unlike Fate, The Wolkenritter or the Numbers, Huckbein have been both indiscriminately killing civilians and killing to prevent Touma from seeking TSAB help.
All we have are the three nuns, which was the result of Veyron's virus getting the better of him. All other kills are unconfirmed as being the fault of the Hucks, specifically. And Deville even says that Veyron has bad habits for his actions at that church, implying that he should have acted better, like the rest of them.

Quote:
Possibly because it doesn't involve Lost Logia, Dimensional Terrorism or an actual crime.
Well, according to Orussia, mass killing isn't really a crime in the TSAB. Or it's a neat selective enforcement of laws there. Ironically, the Hucks should probably settle on Orussia. A nice civil war means enough killing to get by, and the Bureau would leave them alone. =)

Quote:
And I'll point out we don't actually know that TSAB is allowing it rather than just being unable to prevent it, either due to internal civil wars not being their business or lack of ground forces.
Given the technology and magic of the Bureau, it wouldn't be that hard. Civil wars have two sides, usually at least two groups of people. Round them all up and separate them by barriers. There has to be quite a few who would jump at the chance to not live in a kill zone. You can forcibly teleport people at whim, after all. Keep them separate, take away their weapons, and force them to live for a few decades apart from each other until the ones that hate have passed away, while teaching the younger generation the benefits of learning to work together.

-----

Anyway, I wanted to address a couple of things, one of which is that it's incredibly likely the Hucks are being framed, or at least being blamed for things they didn't do. All we have is 3 confirmed nuns, and possibly the people that were creating a settlement on an uninhabited world, possibly one the Hucks were using a home base so they wouldn't be near other people and could just kill animals.

The other thing of note, is that we have just seen that Karen has a book that has a cross on it. What if the book Touma has, was once property of the Hucks? A scientist guy says at the very start that they need to change the book's owner, implying that it was property of someone else.

If it was stolen from the Hucks, who know how dangerous it could be, it would explain why they were now in the area looking for it. They find it has bonded to Touma, and knowing how dangerous such an individual is and knowing they are in the best position to deal with it, they have no choice but to "kidnap" him. Given his emo shout and advanced stage of infection, releasing him would be bad. So they are in a difficult spot of convincing him of this. Veyron's own words indicate they just wanted the Reactor and Divider back.

Along comes the Bureau with a policy of shoot first, ask questions later, and I'm hard-pressed to assign too much blame. So even if they are in TSAB space, it was only to help prevent something much worse from occurring. The Bureau isn't helping matters any, by not seeking to talk to the Hucks, and indeed, pursuing them rather than the real culprits behind things.

I don't blame the Bureau too much, as Eclipse people were probably involved. Just not the ones they are currently targeting.

Also one other thing of note: Land patrol officers were seeking Touma for robbery and theft, implying that there is some degree of control over official forces. This other group controlling things, if the Hucks had run into them before, would have made the Hucks even more wary of trusting officials. How do you know who is a good cop and who is a bad cop, if you've had enough run ins with bad cops?

Also interesting to note: Signum stated that they have to bring the owner of the divider under control by force... which is what the Hucks were trying to do as well. So at the least, the Hucks and the Bureau are on the same level.
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Old 2011-01-31, 15:37   Link #15975
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I was going to bring up some of the same points Kaijo did. We really don't know what all the Huckebein are responsible for.

That village Teana was investigating? There were survivors, and ones that were apparently close enough to the culprits to get a good look at them. Had this been the Huckebein's work, there'd be no such witnesses.

Again, Thoma's village was destroyed by some other party. While the Huckebein were there, they weren't responsible for destroying it. But he does say the culprits carry their marks.

So a major fallacy here is assuming that all Eclipse infectees are members of the Huckebein family. It's clear that there are other infected who aren't affiliated with the family. The Bureau is probably making this same mistake.

The Hucks do have rules they live by, as Fortis lays out for Thoma:

"When there is a request or bounty involved, when weapons are drawn against us or when someone interferes with our goal, when infected people such as us need to do so in order to survive, we will exterminate them without hesitation."

He also notes "You may resist with the mindset that murder is a crime. However, you'll get used to it. We did too."

So it is a case of people doing bad things for the sake of survival and then adapting to those circumstances.

Also, I have my doubts about Veyron killing those nuns. Thoma asks him if he's the one who did it, but Veyron doesn't answer. Given Veyron's later actions, admitting to killing the nuns would have gotten Thoma riled up as well, and yet Veyron stayed silent on that matter. Perhaps some one else killed the nuns and Veyron just happened to come in after. He did make his needlessly killing comment, but perhaps he killed one of the real culprits? Or maybe a nun was still barely alive and he mercy killed her? What exactly happened there is too vauge, and I doubt Tsuzuki will revisit it and provide an explanation.
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Old 2011-01-31, 15:52   Link #15976
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Kaijo, you say that like the Hucks aren't specifically making things difficult themselves. When the Wolfram came after them Fortis didn't even bother trying to explain what they were doing there, or what the situation was. He just told them to get lost they'd shank their asses.

If they're really judging an entire organization that large by what some of them did, well, they're bigger idiots than I thought, and they obviously don't realize just how destructive they'll be in the long term.

And am I the only one who was kind of disturbed by the way Fortis said that, especially when one of their members is a very young girl who looks up to the others? He could easily brainwash a child into thinking along those lines.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:00   Link #15977
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Also interesting to note: Signum stated that they have to bring the owner of the divider under control by force... which is what the Hucks were trying to do as well. So at the least, the Hucks and the Bureau are on the same level.
They will be 'on the same level' (ie evil) when the Bureau is willing to feed innocents to Eclipse infectees to keep them for study/use, and not a moment sooner.

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Lots of lawless stuff happens in the Wild West.
And just a nitpick, but the American West wasn't nearly as violent as the movies would have you believe.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:05   Link #15978
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Kaijo, you say that like the Hucks aren't specifically making things difficult themselves. When the Wolfram came after them Fortis didn't even bother trying to explain what they were doing there, or what the situation was. He just told them to get lost they'd shank their asses.

If they're really judging an entire organization that large by what some of them did, well, they're bigger idiots than I thought, and they obviously don't realize just how destructive they'll be in the long term.
Right, do you honestly expect criminals to believe that law enforcement would lay off them just because they asked nicely? Fortis knows full well that they are seen as evil criminals by the world, so it would be a waste of breath to try and convince anyone otherwise.

And judging the whole based off a part? Good God that happens all the damn time by everyone everywhere.

Though with an organization like the Bureau, which has a heirarchy, if they ran afoul with any higher ups (any sort of super secret research team likely reports to some one high on the ladder), even if some regular mages are nice people, it doesn't matter since they report to the same people anyways.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:11   Link #15979
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Then don't call out Section Six for not trying to talk things out first when the Hucks have made it quite clear they don't either, and with fatal results.
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Old 2011-01-31, 16:32   Link #15980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
They will be 'on the same level' (ie evil) when the Bureau is willing to feed innocents to Eclipse infectees to keep them for study/use, and not a moment sooner.
If the implications that Cypha hinted at are correct, the Bureau has killed eclipse infected people before. So, perhaps more accurate to say they fed the infected to a meat grinder.

Quote:
And just a nitpick, but the American West wasn't nearly as violent as the movies would have you believe.
This is true, but it's the idea I'm getting across. There are plenty of "lawless" areas throughout history, and in more cynical story lines. If you don't want me using the wild west, I can use others. :P

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Then don't call out Section Six for not trying to talk things out first when the Hucks have made it quite clear they don't either, and with fatal results.
The problem is, the Bureau is supposed to be better than that. Our heroes are supposed to be better than that. If the good guys are acting the exact same way as the bad guys... then where is their moral high ground? Ignoring the Huck's morality, I was kind of disappointed to see our heroes had abandoned the "let's talk things out" strategy. But I suppose they've been turned into good little Bureau soldiers now.
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