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Old 2011-02-02, 08:50   Link #16101
Moczo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
This has been bugging me for a couple of days now: Stella is the helmswoman of an Esquad-class battleship named "Hückebein". I've always thought that "Hückebein" is a sort of family name but then Stella herself revealed her family name as "Irvine". So, does that mean that "Veyron of Hückebein" merely means "Veyron, member of the Hückebein crew"? In other words, the words "Hückebein family" should be replaced with "Hückebein crew who treat each other as family"?
Could be that Karen's last name is 'Hückebein', the ship is named after her, and the other Hucks are considered her 'children'.

Or, alternatively, the Hückebein Family is a family in the Mafia meaning of the term.
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Old 2011-02-02, 09:07   Link #16102
Tiresias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Could be that Karen's last name is 'Hückebein', the ship is named after her, and the other Hucks are considered her 'children'.

Or, alternatively, the Hückebein Family is a family in the Mafia meaning of the term.
*Imagines other Hucks kneeling in front of Karen, who's keeping her soon-to-be-dinner cat on her lap, and kissing her hand and ring, saying "Godmother"*
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Old 2011-02-02, 09:29   Link #16103
itanshi1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
TSAB being responsible for the bad shit and huckies being actually poor misunderstood douchebags would be a sign of Tsuzuki's inability to renew himself; and for the Nanoha series that have taken pride into breathing fresh air in the genre, it is the sign of a franchise playing it safe and stagnating in its own set of cliche and formula.
Well, not really. What sort of Force would they be if they didn't have their fingers and or money everywhere? Like the US has with Egypt, Panama, Mexico, etc. In this case, the TSAB has a venture interest in weapon creation. If it was difficult for them to have influence over any nation that funded and or created a weapon that they could not deal with, then they would not be doing their job right. They might not even be in 'power'.

Still, Jail proved the futility of hiring people to create things that could destroy you, so that makes this look weird in hindsight. Simply, the story is not completed yet. So this is just fruitless spec.
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Old 2011-02-02, 09:41   Link #16104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane View Post
This has been bugging me for a couple of days now: Stella is the helmswoman of an Esquad-class battleship named "Hückebein". I've always thought that "Hückebein" is a sort of family name but then Stella herself revealed her family name as "Irvine". So, does that mean that "Veyron of Hückebein" merely means "Veyron, member of the Hückebein crew"? In other words, the words "Hückebein family" should be replaced with "Hückebein crew who treat each other as family"?

Hum i remember that just before Force started there were context articles that were translated on the forum, one of them stated that the Hückebein were a organiszed crime like familly *shrug*
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:00   Link #16105
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Well, not really. What sort of Force would they be if they didn't have their fingers and or money everywhere? Like the US has with Egypt, Panama, Mexico, etc. In this case, the TSAB has a venture interest in weapon creation. If it was difficult for them to have influence over any nation that funded and or created a weapon that they could not deal with, then they would not be doing their job right. They might not even be in 'power'.

Still, Jail proved the futility of hiring people to create things that could destroy you, so that makes this look weird in hindsight. Simply, the story is not completed yet. So this is just fruitless spec.

I am not sure what you have failed to understand about what I meant. I said that resorting to the "It's all/partially the TSAB's fault" card is sign of laziness; kinda like how suddenly all the bad shit in Bleach are somehow parts of Aizen's plans. I am merely freaking echoing Keroko's sentiment right here. A writer resorting to play the same "It's the fault of the some random Lelouch JUST AS KEIKAKU Grinning douchebag in the TSAB/CIA/FBI/KGB/The Nazis/The Templar Knights/The Jews/The Freemasons so it is not really the Bad Guys of the Season's fault" card for the second/third/tenth time is sign that said writer needs to stop writing a bit, take vacations and hopefully get inspirations elsewhere.
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:05   Link #16106
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Tired? So? It's realistic. I understood fine. And you didn't read my last line, did you?
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:07   Link #16107
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Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Tired? So? It's realistic.
Realistic, in Nanoha? Now that's fucking rich. Look if Nanoha was in the slightest bit grounded in reality, you'd have seen instances where Nanoha herself fail to talk the bad guys' problems out like sitcom dad; in other worlds, we have seen Nanoha concluding that her methods are not always the fix all methods. We would have seen more irredeemable scums, douchebags, and people being dicks because they loves being dicks. Keyword in previous sentence is more.
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:09   Link #16108
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You treat this like Excel Saga (as in it has nothing realistic about it and is not allowed any semblance of realism), maybe that's a bit more 'rich'. We use what we have to go by and I already said it was weird. I don't understand your anxiety.
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:25   Link #16109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Could be that Karen's last name is 'Hückebein', the ship is named after her, and the other Hucks are considered her 'children'.
That is possible. The more I think about it, the more it dawns to me that the Hucks may view Karen the same way as Wolkies view Hayate... She may be younger than most of them but she still has their unwavering loyalty for some reason.

Quote:
Or, alternatively, the Hückebein Family is a family in the Mafia meaning of the term.
Well, maybe there is that, but they do treat each other with familiarity usually found in people related by blood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
*Imagines other Hucks kneeling in front of Karen, who's keeping her soon-to-be-dinner cat on her lap, and kissing her hand and ring, saying "Godmother"*
More like "We are the sociopathic killers who gather before our mistress, she of the evil battleship..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRS View Post
Hum i remember that just before Force started there were context articles that were translated on the forum, one of them stated that the Hückebein were a organiszed crime like familly *shrug*
I would like to see that translation...
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:27   Link #16110
Sheba
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You treat this like Excel Saga (as in it has nothing realistic about it and is not allowed any semblance of realism).
It's not Excel Saga, it's Little House In the Prairie with Nanoha as Charles Ingalls, sans the housefire every weeks and the baby death every two or three seasons.. But even Little House in the Prairie grasped that the workings of the human personality and relationships are a little more complex than that.
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:33   Link #16111
Keroko
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Tired? So? It's realistic. I understood fine. And you didn't read my last line, did you?
Meh, it might be realistic, but if it's used as a plot device it's merely repeating what the last two seasons did. Now there's nothing inherently wrong with that (if fans want more of the same, give them more of the same) but I personally hope they won't use that card again. Just personal preference.
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:37   Link #16112
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How can we exactly gauge 'realism' in anime, anyway? For me, MSLN is as a realistic as Kenshin (you know, the one where a blunt sword can cut cannon shells but not kill people?)

This is primarily why I have mixed feelings with Force manga: is it really going to be a war story? On one hand, they use military ranks, military uniforms, and claims to be part of a military. On the other hand they ignore basic tactics even when they're sensible, and the protagonists has the tendency of carrying the idiot ball so the enemy can be a threat, just like most shounen stories. And speaking of unrealistic, this is the series where a 19-year old can become a lieutenant colonel, as if military ranks are the new power level (you're supposed to promote an officer based on her command skill and experience, not by the ability to shoot big laser beams)...

Even the films made by Michael "Star Spangled Splosions" Bay has more realism than this...

*Suddenly distracted by the fact that "Michael Bay's Nanoha's Magical War Chronicles"+ Hans Zimmer soundtrack actually seems interesting*
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Last edited by Tiresias; 2011-02-02 at 12:42. Reason: Shounen with a sparkle of military spices seems more appropriate
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:50   Link #16113
Sheba
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
And speaking of unrealistic, this is the series where a 19-year old can become a lieutenant colonel, as if military ranks are the new power level (you're supposed to promote an officer based on her command skill and experience, not by the ability to shoot big laser beams)...
I don't mind the age that much. IF we are shown the deeds and the circumstances that earned them the brass they can wear.

This is why I am not even protesting at how Reinhard Von Lohengramm climb up the military and political ladder. Reinhard had the context (an ongoing war) and the deeds (his victories against the Free Planets Alliance) and we are shown them through the whole course of Legend of Galactic Heroes, we are shown why he is deserving that ranks and his personality traits justifies them.

However, like you, I am minding the seemingly flimsy way the nanoha girls earned their brass, if they were dragged in a long ongoing war and have to fight enough battles that would have killed a WWI veteran over 9000 times, their promotion would have been believable. But then we see Hayate carrying the idiot ball and think, "Is she really *insert military rank here*?"

Also I would suggest people who have not done it to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes, it's an incredible series, be it in character management, development but also in its world building and history. You can see a young man, Julian Minci, wise beyond the years, done right. But it is not just Julian, the whole cast of the series is praiseworthy for how they are used in the story, in a way that "make sense" in the universe.
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Old 2011-02-02, 10:55   Link #16114
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Seems you have some sort of vested interest in pulling fandom away from here and into there (not that i blame you) but in the context of its this series manga, not that series, then why are you mentioning it? It's OT
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Old 2011-02-02, 12:25   Link #16115
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Let's see... let's hit a few points...

The Bureau also refers to the "unit" as the Huckbein family, so it could be that the ship was named after the group. Regardless if the Hucks have last names, it could easily be "Veyron of Huckbein" like "Hayate of Riot Force 6." But they still treat each other as family. Since they do bounty hunting work in lawless territories, it's a convenient way to refer to the group. Sorta like hiring a mercenary group like the Kell Hounds and instead hiring the Huckbein. Just a convenient way to refer to them.

On the subject of the TSAB being responsible, and how "real" or not that would seem... Things like heavy weapons research doesn't happen without money. Even Jail needed TSAB funds to get his stuff done. Thus, a bureaucratic organization like the Bureau would have a lot of money moving through, and organizations with a lot of money, attract smart people wanting that money. It makes sense; follow the money and you find who is supporting/funding these bad things.

But as we saw with Regius, Caro, and possibly even Agito, the Bureau does have a dark side. Hayate probably took her position as investigator to root out these cases, after her experience with Regius. I only hope that continues here, and she finds out who has been behind these Huck cases, because there has to be a Bureau link.

As for young girls and their rank... Hayate herself says that mage ranks are mainly just for show. She really doesn't have the power to back up her rank, because both her and the brass have recognized that she hasn't earned the power. In short, it's just a superficial reward to make a mage feel special and keep them in the Bureau.

And also, we've already had the conversation that child mages can be rather destructive, and thus in the Bureau's interest to encourage them to enlist in some capacity to be properly trained and to focus their powers into constructive avenues. Yeah, child soldiers seem bad from our perspective, but it makes a certain logical sense. Especially since Regius was rightly worried about rogue mages causing a lot of damage.
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Old 2011-02-02, 12:58   Link #16116
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That would really sink these supposed Shadow Cabinet dudes to new levels of stupidity, though. "Let's make guys immune to magic! Oh wait, they broke out and now we can't control them, BECAUSE THEY'RE IMMUNE TO MAGIC."

"Well, shoot them or - oh right, the Healing Factor. Seemed like a good idea at the time."

Also put me down for not wanting the TSAB to be responsible. They JUST played that card in the last series. Aren't there other governments who could have made them?

Last edited by Justin_Brett; 2011-02-02 at 13:10.
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:11   Link #16117
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Jails's Cyborgs may have been intended as an attempt to counter/control the Huckebein, as their abilities are not dependent on magic. They are also easier to contol.

Since we know Jail got funding from the Shadow Types for his projects, but not necessarily all the specific details of why and hwerefores behind their creations, it's possible the Numbers could have been designated as an anti-Huckebein-going-rogue-backup-plan on top of any other aim intended for them
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:15   Link #16118
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I like that, but as mentioned, why aren't they deployed?
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:17   Link #16119
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I mean, most of the Bureau's military strength is in mages, right? Maybe some planet experimented in the virus to circumvent that and overthrow them. It'd maybe explain why the Hucks don't seem to like the Bureau.
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Old 2011-02-02, 13:20   Link #16120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
That would really sink these supposed Shadow Cabinet dudes to new levels of stupidity, though. "Let's make guys immune to magic! Oh wait, they broke out and now we can't control them, BECAUSE THEY'RE IMMUNE TO MAGIC."

"Well, shoot them or - oh right, the Healing Factor. Seemed like a good idea at the time."

Also put me down for not wanting the TSAB to be responsible. They JUST played that card in the last series. Aren't there other governments who could have made them?
There is more than one way to control or threaten someone, but you'll note that the Brain Council and Regius were pretty stupid when it came to Jail. They gave him money to build an army, without any real way of controlling him if he decided to go rogue. So precedent has been set.

The other thing to keep in mind is that these mass-based AEC weapons were developed, too, which could hint at the control factor. The Huck's, while powerful, wouldn't be so invulnerable to a mage army armed with AEC weapons. It would be an interesting manipulation.

Shadow man #1: "We'll create these Hucks to use as a small personal army to do our bidding. If they get out of line, we can always use our new AEC weapons on them."

Shadow man #2: "But who could we get to wield them?"

#1: "Hayate had an outfit that was particularly skilled against Jail's AMF. We could always give her an opening to reform it, and then give her these weapons. They beat the Cradle, after all. And no matter what happens, we have plausible deniability; after all, who is going to believe mass murderers?"

#2: "Good point. Let's do that."
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