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Old 2006-12-25, 19:22   Link #321
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
But it still is your opinion. The decision on how you live or die doesn't fall into your hands.
But we are talking about Gin who miraculously made herself moved because she wants to see father... Take that away from her will she still move? Do we know that?

Taking your statement literally, truth and lies can decide if a person lives or dies. One quick example would be if you told a manic depressive with a history of suicide that their partner was cheating on them if they ask you (and you do know that they are being cheated on)
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Old 2006-12-25, 19:26   Link #322
aeriolewinters
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Quote:
One quick example would be if you told a manic depressive with a history of suicide that their partner was cheating on them if they ask you (and you do know that they are)
I would still tell the truth. No matter what you say, I don't think it is necessary. Because it's still that someone who's going to decide. You can affect what he/she can decide, but it is his/her choice.

That statement was wrong, sorry... I was implying the opposite. I was saying it was that entity's right to decide, not yours.

What I'm trying to put here is that the fact that Gin willed herself to live makes her qualified to learn the truth.
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Old 2006-12-25, 19:34   Link #323
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
I would still tell the truth. No matter what you say, I don't think it is necessary. Because it's still that someone who's going to decide.
Is this because you believe that your words, the information that you give, doesn't make you guilty of someones death because it is their decision? So how about someone who is mentally unstable or too young to understand?

More importantly who is the judge of this truth? Back to the topic, a lot of the Shinku hate is based on what Gin says. It's actually very hard to know what Shinku is planning or thinking.

Lets take the statement "you can see father"... Is this a lie?
No it is not. Why because we all know that Gin actually see's him more times then anyone else so far (as I believe that it was Rozen who revived her after S1 as I don't believe that Enju has the ability to create Rozen Maidens)

So from the point of view of us as the viewer we know that Shinku does not lie as Gin indeeds meets Rozen at leasts 3 more times... Well each time after her death and she thinks that Shinku is the favorite????

Now lets pretend that Shinku was planning on becoming Alice, meeting father and then dragging his sorry arse over to see Gin... That would also means she has not lied as long as she can achieve it....

Truth and lies are in the eye of the beholder....
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Old 2006-12-25, 19:38   Link #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Well, yes, the start of the encounter wasn't good. It makes one believe that Shinku really only looks down on Suigintou, incomplete and yet she was given a Rosa Mystiqua, which makes her eligible to be Alice, which must have seemed like a joke to Shinku, who considered herself almost perfect. However, I believe there's more than just pity in Shinku's actions. There are several things that point to Shinku wanting to help Suigintou have a good life away from the Alice game, because, indeed, she considered her too weak to win. And even when Suigintou GOT a Rosa Mystiqua, she still told her that she can't get in the game? Why not? Well, a way to have put it would be "You're not match for me, just leave or I'll kill you". Even if Shinku felt like that, she didn't threaten Suigintou. It was more of a try to dissuade her from entering the Alice game. I don't think Shinku was being just pitiful. A way to summarize Shinku's words would be "You're incomplete, you're different from us, I wanted you to live happily, please go back, you'll die". Obviously Shinku thinks herself superior but I didn't detect any malice or contempt on her part. Indeed to me it seemed like she was protecting someone less fortunate. Shinku could have acted much better in various occassions, but there was no ill intent or that much of a high arrogance as some argue.
ahh but from gin's point of view that is disrespectful to her position ~ i bet she would rather lose fair and square than not to fight at all...she wanted acknowledgement from shinku that she is indeed suigintou the first rozen maiden doll ~ nothing much...i think that that time gin managed to get over shinku's first betrayal and was actuallying looking for her acceptance as being a sister ~ but she didnt...rather so she told her to go back and live a happy life instead with sara...well this just pissed her off even more...why? why is she still not qualified to be a RM doll and to fight like any other RM doll? why must shinku hinder her progress to meet her father...is it because she is jealous of me? yes she must be...i was have also been blessed by father but shinku is till giving me words of pity ~ well i dont need it! (gin's train of thought imo)

well there is a thing as being too kind...shinku trying to do whats best for gin isnt always whats best for gin herself thats the bottom line and shinku screwed it up >.<
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Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
Cos' Shinku had to find something to make Gin moving. Yes she was lying to her, but she was lying like your mother used to lie to you when she told you to be a good boy (or girl, I dunno) to have your Xmas presents from Santa.

Shinku didn't think in the bad way... she only acted like nurses act with Megu. Trying to give her hope (even if it's false hope), in order de cheer her on and let her have, at least a happy life, even if it would be short, and without Rozen... since it was impossible for Gin to reach him.

How do you think Gin would have reacted if Shinku had told her the truth ? She would have ended up with more tears, despair and suffering than she used to bear all her life long. Sure, this would have been better than a happy life with Sarah.

And now Gin is facing someone who is in the same state than she was... and she is doing almost the same thing than Shinku did for her.
yes i know that too...by lying to her in the first place she tired to get gin's spirit up and for her to find a reason to live and carry on...but she should have considered telling the truth to her sooner...was she seriously gonna just leave gin one day and never return? ~ seems like it to me if boku hadnt spilled the beans...oh and that act by boku is irrational! >.< it set gin up for a harder fall imo...
Quote:
Originally Posted by the.Merines View Post
You guys crack me up.

Blame everything on Rozen.
yes hes a bastard but still i owe him one for creating gin sama (as much as i hate to )
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Old 2006-12-25, 19:50   Link #325
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Taking your statement literally, truth and lies can decide if a person lives or dies. One quick example would be if you told a manic depressive with a history of suicide that their partner was cheating on them if they ask you (and you do know that they are being cheated on)
Stop making excuses for Shinku Shes a bitch on a power trip, nothing more
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Old 2006-12-25, 19:54   Link #326
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by Nidas View Post
Stop making excuses for Shinku Shes a bitch on a power trip, nothing more
Hee hee I actually am not make excuses for Shinku as she is perfect but errr I am trying to understand the Gin camp's pov
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Old 2006-12-25, 20:39   Link #327
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So this is it for Overtüre. Although Suigintou's course of hatred is not commendable, nonetheless is understandable and verily justifiable.

Shinku indeed needs to reflect upon her choices of words and polish her heart to incline more towards empathy, than just keeping on schedule her manners and etiquette.

Suigintou totally misunderstood Shinku's pity and that's not to be surprised about, because Suigintou's morale is extremely poor. She needs true love to keep herself on track or else her spirit collapses quite quickly, and the only way to fill her void is bent her hatred upon her sisters to make them as more miserable as possible than she is.

Shinku should have betrayed her lady's stance and instead turn more emotional to aid Suigintou and prevent her from going astray.

But had she done, then we wouldn't had the psycho and devious Suigintou that all of us love dearly.

Suigintou needs love.
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Old 2006-12-25, 20:45   Link #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
The problem is, the nurses were instilling the TRUTH. Shinku on the other hand, was lying.

Bottom line is, the Truth hurts... but at the same time, It gives us hope. Nothing wrong with saying the truth.
What do you think Gin would have hoped for if Shinku told her the truth... in particulary after she tried so hard in order to please Rozen ? Man, Ouverture Gin is not the Gin that we know in RM and RMT... No way she would have beared something like that.
Shinku had 2 choices in front of her, telling Gin the truth and broke the last hope she had or let her living in a happy dream because her life whould not last long... Yes, both are cruel in a hand but which one is the "less worse" ?


And that's a point that makes RM's story very interesting and deep. Topics that are dealt with in this story match with some ethic problems in our society. In Traumend, Megu's case, for example, was an illustration of the euthanasia problem (people may have heard about that Italian man's death and the huge scandal created by the religious authorities).
Here is an other one... do you have to tell the truth that would destroy someone if you can help him to spend the short days he has left peacefully and happily?
Shinku made her decision... a decision that I can understand and I think that is unfair to blame her for that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathk
yes i know that too...by lying to her in the first place she tired to get gin's spirit up and for her to find a reason to live and carry on...but she should have considered telling the truth to her sooner...was she seriously gonna just leave gin one day and never return? ~ seems like it to me if boku hadnt spilled the beans...oh and that act by boku is irrational! >.< it set gin up for a harder fall imo...
It's a bit ironic that you are talking about "boku". What she blamed Shinku for, she will do it centuries later with the "old man".

After all; the only rational one among the sisters is... -desu
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Old 2006-12-25, 22:10   Link #329
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After watching episode 2, I can finally understand where all that hatred stems from.

Imagine a person raising your hopes up, and then you had it crashing down. That was what Suigintou hime-sama felt. Sometimes, while the 'truth' (which was true before Suigintou received her Roza Mystica) may hurt, lying to cover it is actually cruelty in the guise of kindness.

And just when Suigintou thought that she was finally a legitimate Rozen Maiden (a belief strengthened by Rozen's appearance, and the gift of the Roza Mystica), Shinku refused to acknowledge it. That is perhaps the cruelest thing one can face, not being acknowledged. Try working hard from a lousy student to a good student and then have your teachers still calling you an idiot. Won't that really piss you off?

And the fact that Suigintou witnessed Shinku as being the most 'loved' while Suigintou was abandoned probably added fuel to the fire.

Suigintou felt that she was lied to and looked down. And she was also envious of Shinku. All that could give rise to a full blown hatred.

By the way, Suigintou didn't initially realize that she was staying in the house of Rozen's most 'beloved' doll at that time, which was why she didn't attack Shinku on sight. In my opinion, she fully reclaimed her memories after she got her Roza Mystica, giving rise to the negative emotions that gave rise to her N-field. The fact she felt lied to also contributed to her current mental state.

And not being acknowledged was the final straw that finally led to the hatred Suigintou shared with Shinku.

And it seemed that Laplace and Enju (strange as it might had seem) could both be the chosen referees of the Alice Game, which might explain why they were looking for the Maidens. Enju was Rozen's apprentice after all, so it wouldn't be surprising that he was also chosen to be the referee. I believe he hadn't made Barasuishou at that era.

And I think this special episode touched upon the subject on the origins of Suigintou hime-sama, but that era was probably not the last time they met before meeting Jun. Probably, after that particular era, there were still several more Alice Games which led to Suigintou eventually be known by not only Souseiseki, but Suiseiseki and all other Rozen Maidens, and especially gave rise to her reputation as a very powerful and dangerous doll.
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Old 2006-12-25, 22:18   Link #330
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Perhaps we should stop saying "I would do this" and "Shinku could have done that." Take things at face value. I'm sure Shinku/Suigintou's actions were carefully written to be in accord with their existing characters and add to them at the same time.

E'rbody be nice. Conversations can be opinionated without us trying to convince others of the one true truth, especially when it doesn't exist. Go ahead and draw your conclusions, but don't get hurt if someone else doesn't see from your point of view. It's just the internet.

/end rational thought
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Old 2006-12-25, 22:23   Link #331
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For Shinku, her actions was probably the kindest to think of, but kindness does not necessarily seem kind to Suigintou.

It was unfortunate, but I do not think Shinku could had done any better. I mean, her hopes was mostly shattered. Suigintou was quite a wreak when she first appeared, and would had stayed a wreak if Shinku hadn't done what she did.

The learning of the 'truth' also returned Suigintou into a wreak, but she was fortunate in that sense that the moment she lost hope, Rozen came and she regained her hope again. But there was a dark side, Suigintou came to hate Shinku.

The world isn't really fair. Kindness to one may seem to be cruelty to another. Kindness does not always get responded with gratefulness, and sometimes kindness hurts more than it helps in the long run.

But heck, if Shinku didn't do what she did, the Suigintou hime-sama we all know and love wouldn't exist.
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Old 2006-12-26, 01:16   Link #332
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Originally Posted by Guido View Post
So this is it for Overtüre. Although Suigintou's course of hatred is not commendable, nonetheless is understandable and verily justifiable.

Shinku indeed needs to reflect upon her choices of words and polish her heart to incline more towards empathy, than just keeping on schedule her manners and etiquette.
She apologize for it in the 2nd season.
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Old 2006-12-26, 01:34   Link #333
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I just have finally translated Ouverture and though it is still not perfect I can sense that this one is not a prelude as was speculated, but a flashback. Be ready for RM3 as it will be at fall '07, rumors say....

And for Gin to just move out of pure love for her father.... well love CAN do miracles... as well as murders...
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Old 2006-12-26, 01:54   Link #334
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I actually could not think of a better prequel. Ouveture was good!
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Old 2006-12-26, 02:21   Link #335
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
She apologize for it in the 2nd season.
Yeah, don't forget Episode 6 of Traumend.

Episode 6 Clip

I still hate STINKU in Overture, but this happens to be one of my favorite moments from the show, one of the very few moments that I actually liked Shinku. Almost redeemed her snobbish, selfish, prissy bitchy attitude.
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Old 2006-12-26, 03:45   Link #336
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Spoiler for Suiseiseki can also be moe, too ~desu:
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Old 2006-12-26, 04:18   Link #337
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the.Merines has a very good point and I hope that my post are not taken as trying to convince others of my POV. As what I am trying to do is to understand the hardcore Gin camp's POV.

Now this is a good clip (even thro it goes against some of the things I have posted )

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaNeko View Post
Yeah, don't forget Episode 6 of Traumend.

Episode 6 Clip

I still hate STINKU in Overture, but this happens to be one of my favorite moments from the show, one of the very few moments that I actually liked Shinku. Almost redeemed her snobbish, selfish, prissy bitchy attitude.
If we take the following scene below, doesn't this mean that Gin believes she is superior?

S - Thank goodness. Just as I thought father...
G - Of course he did! I am the one most suited to be Alice. That is why father revived me.


But also if we take the apology, Shinku realises that it was wrong to call Gin Junk after she sees a doll revived and her arm fixed by Jun. So in the past when Shinku called Gin junk she really believed it was right to do so....

@Blitz - It was good and I loved how nothing stuck out like a sore thumb, it all flowed so nicely. Only thing is I wish I saw more Hina
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Old 2006-12-26, 05:56   Link #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
If we take the following scene below, doesn't this mean that Gin believes she is superior?

S - Thank goodness. Just as I thought father...
G - Of course he did! I am the one most suited to be Alice. That is why father revived me.


But also if we take the apology, Shinku realises that it was wrong to call Gin Junk after she sees a doll revived and her arm fixed by Jun. So in the past when Shinku called Gin junk she really believed it was right to do so....
yes she did but only because she knew that she had to adopt this new personality in order to survive against shinku ~ "well if shinku says that shes the most loved then i will to" ~

yep she believed it *plays dramatic music* and it took her all the way to the 2nd season to admit she was wrong T_T still i congraz her for admitting to it ~ i think that is why gin protected her against bara's attack...

overall ouverture impressed me i was actually scared that it might be screwed up but instead we were bombarded with gin sama moe goodness
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Old 2006-12-26, 06:24   Link #339
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Originally Posted by Dk
shinku was also selfish for being shocked at gin recieving a roza mystica from rozen...but how is it impossible? the proof is right in front of her eyes...the best thing to do would to accept a challenge and fight it over...that way it would have showed that shinku respected gin as a rozen maiden...but well as you can see she still has the image of gin being "less fortunate" than her being not complete...but who cares? gin isnt going to be ashamed of herself because she isnt complete all she wants is to meet rozen...
One must dig into Shinku's mind and try to understand her before proclaiming her to be selfish. All along, to her, the Rozen Maiden's are the epitome of... quality, is the only word I can find (IIRC, in Shinku's words it was "Ultimate"). In fact, they are just missing perfection by a step. Put yourself in her position. When you see this uncompleted doll, who you had teach how to walk, and she says she has become a Rozen Maiden and even show you her RM, what would you have to think? Even if the truth was before her eyes. Would it not be disbelief and shock and denial? "Here, much more this imperfect doll, having the same opportunity as me to be Alice?" It isnt pity. It's disbelief.

You cannot blame her for thinking that. See, its not because she wants to that she said that, not because she's doing it purposely; but it was because of that deep preconceived notion in her that RMs are near perfection; which we cant blame her for, because before Gin, that was the truth. That's why I cannot blame Shinku, as much as I cannot blame Gin.

That's why I can't understand all this Shinku bashing, which kinda irritates me.

I'm gonna take it out on Rozen.
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Old 2006-12-26, 06:32   Link #340
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I'm gonna take it out on Rozen.
Yes, it's his fault!
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