Rozen Maiden ~ Ouvertüre ~ Discussion Thread

[Kageitenshi]

If anyone thinks what I write is my opinion and attacks it as being against their opinion, then that's just their opinion of what my opinion is, based on their basic assumptions. It's just the tip of the iceberg, I only ever speak my mind for others to see and tell me what I can't

What you just said is just about exactly what I meant in the first place, save for a few minor details that seems to have caused the wrong assumptions. That's exactly why I am so concerned about other people's point of view, since what people say can be interpreted in as many ways as there are people.

The reason I used the more or less neutral definitions "gentle/stern, subtle/bold" etcetera (including but not limited to, using legaleze jargon) instead of the good / evil axis is exactly the reason that how you define evil and good are also interpretable in some 6 billion ways. And things that can be considered good without needing anything to be negated with to be such is entirely besides the point and only adds one minor detail to the bigger picture, so thanks for addin another detail. Had I used only my definitions I could be considered arrogant in the way that I don't take other points of view into consideration, though it is quite normal. Also the knowing about something, and actually doing it is a whole different deal and is besides the point, knowing when to and when not to is my point. Indeed one has to know the what, if and when and consider the what if; I'm speaking knowledge here really, what would be worse than committing an act of evil against someone when you weren't even remotely able to consider the fact that it might be considered bad by this person? I put good emphasis on good intentions versus bad intentions, good outcome versus bad outcome. Not doing anything at all versus at least trying. And don't start quoting Yoda for me. Details on how the good outcome based on good intentions is reached is besides the point but shouldn't be forgotten.

The exact reason why I post anything here is to be informed of what can be considered wrong or what needs clarification and to learn from mistakes and from the ideas and opinions of others. I believe the Rozen Maidens exist to learn from experience where to draw the line between selfishness, altruism and all the other not included but not limited to - where the limits within and without to their own existence and abilities lie.

Also the reason I used the perfect sword / shield example as fitting is just because neither are inherently evil but sword is only capable of offense and shield capable of defense and are as such flawed but depending on how they are used, they're quite sufficient alone. Since a sword can be used to cut down those who would selfishly violate others, but it's still offense. Shield can only be used to defend against such people but isn't able to bring an end to the battle. It's entirely irrelevant whether or not it is righteous or just to cut down these people or whether their reasons for attacking are such or whether or not the defenders are any more rightly doing so and in whose opinion. I actually admire the katana in the concept of being the soul of the samurai, the use of it defining the man not to forget the beauty and the fact that in the end it is but a tool.

I stress once again that perfect doesn't have to BE both good and evil and stand in the middle, perfect has to know what it is to be good or evil and in whose point of view and to be able to decide themselves when to intervene and when not to and if yes, then how to best deal with the situation for everyone's benefit without asking too much of the outcome. To find a balance, even if it means sacrifice on everyone's behalf, not to try and force bliss unto everyone even if there aren't the means to do so. To make the best of what's available so to speak.

The current money and ego driven society we're living in has caused a horribly twisted and contradicting idea of what is good for you if you ask me; "advertising causes need" to quote Pizza Pie by System of a Down. "Buy this or you'll end up bald" "Eat this and you'll feel good" "no sugar!" (now they're marketing "energy drink" without sugar... ye, drink minus the energy part O_o? ) Ah well, that's starting to go a bit offtopic, but to point out just what happens when people don't do the necessary thinking or aren't able to being "brainwashed" by all kinds of marketing jargon and religious and political groups seeking their own good. And what of the people who refuse to follow the norms enforced on them... Hikikomori and burnouts etc. and all the less visible or hidden are symptoms, how long does it take to fix what's wrong.

Looking at the whole bigger picture, isn't most anime indeed supposed to make us think what we're doing wrong to begin with and to possibly fix that to become Alice in our own right? Just watched both Battle Royale movies, with all the blood and gore there actually was a good and valid message behind it, clearly broadcasted to every viewer.

Chi-no: You're correct that indeed Barasuishou was built by Enju, BUT based on the true seventh doll Kirakishou we see at the end of last episode of Träumend. But ever since Ouvertüre the dolls have known there to be seven dolls, they believed in Barasuishou claiming to be the seventh since they simply didn't know that there could be another with abilities of a Maestro. They believed although, Shinku doubted all along in Suigintou being the first.
Quoting from 1st ep. of OT
Sarah: "There are seven Rozen Maidens, right?"
Shinku: "Yes. But I have only met the third, the fourth and the sixth. That is all.
Sarah: "Shinku is the fifth, the ones remaining are the 1st, 2nd and 7th?"
Shinku: "Yes that is correct. But Hina-Ichigo said she has met the second doll before... Her name is... Kana... something... Kanabu?"

Since the dolls basically assume there to be only Rozen Maidens in existence and seven altogether, all being valid to play the game, they couldn't possibly find out about Enju's part in the game until too late. Kirakishou will likely take a big part in 3rd season.

[npal]

Well, you do need to add clarifications here and there you know Those specific details are NOT beside the point, they explain things that have weight and aren't in the original post, and as far as I'm concerned, their statements does make a difference, or I wouldn't be bothering adding them

[Kageitenshi]

Besides whose point? How can I add clarifications without knowing what needs to be clarified? How could I possibly know just how multifaceted a dice any other person is when it comes to knowing how and what they think and about what. I'd end up underestimating people if I had to add every detail in a way that even a child could understand my ideas. I'd overestimate myself if I went on to think that everyone could make the same assumptions based on what I write or say. I don't like giving my answers since everyone should find their own.

So for your sake I sure hope you didn't write the next line thinking that I might need the clarification.

You do realize that a sword or shield aren't inherently good or evil, right? They are tools, it's the cause they are used that can give us reasons to define them as being good or evil. Just wanted to point that out.

Just as long as you or anyone else doesn't think that I (or anyone else) haven't possibly thought of another possibility for something I write, that's just arrogant and not very mature. Since I have to make decisions here on what to write and what to omit and I reduce the number of details for others to fill in with their own little heads based on their very own ideas instead of mine. If they wish to add those details here for everyone to see, they're free to do so and I'd verymuch like that. But they're besides what I have to say, even if they're included and are a more or less important part of the bigger picture.

I could write a friggin book out of all the possibilities I can come up with, like thinking that I used the sword and shield as examples of evil and good when the context they were put into in my opinion was neutral and entirely dependant on who ever wields the tools, that is who ever is reading this and uses their own ideas of how certain things are to be used or what their meaning is.

Edit: It is quite sufficient that if someone asks me "what is Hydrangea?" for me to say it's a flower with white to purple petals that form semi-spherical clusters. Assuming that whoever asked knows the meaning of flower, colors, semi and sphere, I don't have to go on and explain every single detail about these definitions, unless they ask for a further definition. If they want to know about what kind of leafs and how tall it grows, then it's a whole different matter and out of the context in which an overall definition is asked for and given.

[npal]

Ok ... I understand that discussion between us is rather pointless, as I feel that trying to reason why there should have been clarifications in a logical argument that you wish people to understand would be falling on deaf ears, apparently. Suffice it so say that many people can't fill in the details you omitted, and ALL people can't possibly imply the details you omitted from information that DOES NOT imply them without making a leap of thought to a specific direction, which shouldn't have been the case.

The example above also doesn't relate to the sword-shield, whether you believe it or not, you used them in an argument for the overall good-evil axis, so the fact that they are indeed tools and nothing more needs to be clarified, otherwise they get drawn into opposite sides of the good-evil axis because of the way they are used in the argument, because, in contrast to your opinion, I don't think they are in a middle-ground place in your argument, and that's the reason I thought a clarification was needed. While a sword and shield are primarily tools, tools are neutral, yet the argument is on a good-evil axis and they are used as opposites, so it's actually the context that reinforced that they are not neutrally used. Instead of going out of your way to argue about omitting information or not, it was suffice to say that you meant that indeed and it should have been added, for if one points it out, there have to be others who'll also misunderstand the argument, unless you consider all of those to have mild retardation.

As a final note, thinking that people haven't thought about something isn't arrogant or immature, as many of us can't consider all possibilities (or there would have been no need to debate, just what weighs more for each person), so if someone points out something, he have to either think how it can be countered, incorporated into the argument, or change stance altogether. That's a vital part of discussion anyway, and since people can't be in everyone's mind, you add details to be exact about the meaning you wish to convey and should someone point out something that you thought should have been known, instead of blaming other people for not getting it (I reduce the number of details for others to fill in with their own little heads based on their very own ideas instead of mine) , turn and blame the argument and incorporate the detail in since you meant that indeed.

Plus, the whole point of omitting details because other people must come up with them seems arrogant to me, but that's my opinion.

And since, judging from this and the previous RM discussion, discussion between us gets nowhere, I'll stop commenting your posts. No point in two people talking if a discussion doesn't go anywhere.

[Kageitenshi]

As long as you ignore the opinions and rights of others and enforce your opinions on them, following the Golden Rule of "Do unto others..." you clearly ask for it to be done to yourself.
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. "
Matthew 7:1-2
Atheist I may be, but some of the things in the Bible are still as valid as ever.

Spoiler for Details:

Neither are wrong, neither are correct either since we're both looking at the world with different eyes. Sorry if you feel your opinions are being ignored or twisted by me, but no one is forcing you to voice out your opinion. Change the subject all you like. I think you think you're right and I think you're right to think you're right. About myself, I think that there's an infinite number of things I have yet to learn and take into consideration. I write for personal agenda only, I don't care what kind of assumptions people make out of what I write or how they convey it, what I care about is how that affects me and my ideas. If that's wrong then do tell me to just stop. If people actually do wish to "learn" something from what I've written, they're free to do so but I am not obligated to answer everything or include every minor detail. I said it before and I say it again: I only ever speak my mind for others to see and tell me what I can't. If my whole point is that I wish to hear from others how they fill in the details I omitted or find contradictions and what not and hopefully add to what I have to say, then quite clearly my whole point is not to be fully understood? I don't need to hear from you what you think I should be thinking, just like you argue against my way of thinking and if I add my opinion only to make it clear that I have thought of the possibilities...

I don't know why you even go as far as "arguing" about anything I write, but clearly you have your reasons for doing so. No one what so ever is forcing you to read what I have to say, no one is telling you to NOT TO fill in with your own little details that you very much seem to be capable of. I'm merely answering with the best of my ability to anything I consider to be a violation towards myself. No different I imagine to anyone who subjects their opinions and ideas to public scrutiny. I could simply remain silent and ignorant about how other people think of what I have to say...

Arrogance of ignorance
Ignorance is a bliss, knowledge is pain.

Read the first paragraph of my previous post again and again until you see the wrong in what you try to point out to me as something I should apparently know to begin with. And you're no better yourself since quite obviously what you say can be interpreted in as many ways as there are people. The sword, the shield... that's your opinion, just because you ignore the fact that there are people who can see it the way I see it doesn't invalidate it. Just like my inability to see the way you see doesn't invalidate anything you say. Just because in your opinion I should take into consideration the fact that there indeed are people who are not able to think the way you think I think they should think doesn't in any way obligate me to add those details, since I'm not writing to any one person. Just speaking my mind for my own end. Arrogant, yes, morally and ethically questionable? Depends on who you ask.

Truth hurts and no one's forcing you to post back about anything I have to say. So quite basically if you have nothing to add to further the actual Rozen Maiden related discussion and only causing me to answer to the mistakes and things I've overlooked in your opinion, then please continue doing so with private messages.

And I actually honestly gave you credit for adding those details...
Please, do tell me what I should learn from you that you wouldn't go on rambling about an argument that doesn't go anywhere, since quite basically I can't see your point anywhere. Or are you simply arguing for the argument's sake or out of a personal grudge?!? And make it simple enough so that even a child could understand it since clearly I'm as ignorant as an infant.

While at it, why not explain the self-contradiction of the following:
"Rozen's evil though, unless we get his side of the story, his actions speak volumes." Translated as "Guilty until proven innocent" that written on the very same post as the following line "Some of us are actually true to ourselves with liking nice things and a just world." it is clearly self contradictory as basic juridical and moral sense states that people are innocent until proven guilty, and it is only righteous and just to believe so.

Edit: and here I was thinking I had made a mistake in the way of having people think that what I meant with the equal good and evil in Alice to be so that she'd have to BE both good and evil BUT "what good would this Alice be without knowing what it is to be evil" if that can be interpreted the way you did in having to go as far as pointing out that Alice doesn't have to be both good and evil, then uhh... my mistake O_o? And about the gentle / stern etc. being forced into the context of the previous paragraph's balance in good and evil, defense and offense, for that I can say it's mostly your fault in thinking I must have thought of them as such. My fault is only that I did nothing more than separate the two concepts into different paragraphs thinking they wouldn't be forcibly mixed together and taken out of context... and there you go as far as pointing out that they don't fit in the good / evil axis!

You know what the fundamental difference between the two of us seems to be? You blame anyone but yourself for misinterpreting what you or others have to say and claim the argument to be pointless when you don't get your point through. I blame myself for not considering some option or not being careful enough with my words. You overemphasize details, I put too much emphasis on the bigger picture. And you make too many assumptions based on your limited knowledge of how others think refusing to ask before forcing your opinions and details as being relevant. There wouldn't even be an argument if you didn't go on pointing out things you consider to be flaws in other people. Ever considered being more subtle?

Quess I couldn't have asked for a better outcame than you keeping your insults to yourself, since it'll save me from sleepless hours from now on. I find it wierd that after wading through all the posts you couldn't come up with anything better to say than pointing out things you consider to be major flaws in an insulting manner none the less... I wonder if you even read the meaning of anything I had said before instead of picking out details to be scrutinized, since you're making an example of yourself of what happens when people don't even remotely consider or aren't able to consider the possibility that what they're doing might be wrong.

As a final note, just because you so love details, making the basic assumption that someone hasn't thought of something and acting disrespectfully in "kindly" pointing out things like you did is indeed arrogant and insulting and therefore not mature. Considering the possibilities and respectfully asking first is not only polite but mutually agreeable. You still don't even understand why I didn't originally intend to have my opinions understood and added the details you so much wanted me to add assuming that I wanted to be understood, do you? How about asking next time before forcing opions unto others, which is something you clearly don't want to be done to yourself.

Back to the actual Rozen Maiden related stuff, finally >__<

Does anyone know if the ED song - Utsusemi no Kage by Kukui has been released in any form? It's a shame there's only the 1 min 29 sec ending of the OVA when it's such a beautiful song

[Chi-no]

Ok, Kageitenshi thanks for the info ...

If there is ever a 3rd season, Would like to watch it. Yes indeed like you quote from the overtune, they did say that. And at the end of the 2nd season there is a look-a-like Barasuishou in the end. Would like to see them in action again.

Though not them fighting for the Alice game... Thanks.

[QueenNori]

Originally Posted by Chi-no

And at the end of the 2nd season there is a look-a-like Barasuishou in the end.

That's Kirakishou, the real 7th doll.

[_duangelique]

Owww... that was a little harsh, but reasonable.
Now, when I said that Alice's best qualities were supposed to be taken to the highest point, I didn't mean them to be the ones that we believe are the best. In astrology, specially, we know how thin is the line dividing good and bad qualities, since we are not telling you who you are, or what are you supposed to be right now, but predicting the aspects that you will have, only parting from the day you were born. I know very well that a person whose astral card is formed only by armonic, benefic relations and positions between planets, would be nothing but a worm without any kind of personality.

This same thing happens with Alice, and I don't wanna add anything more to what you two have said, but to agree that, she has to be good (we may not know what's good or bad by divine revelation, but God does really point that out), and know what is evil or recognize evilness itself. Medieval Age's artists were supposed to live in the most depressing spectacle of human miseries; disasters, calamities, and ruins had pass through the times, yet the gothic cathedrals reflect an incomprehensible serenity, expansion and nobility. The people looks healthy and sane, the angels are in ecstasy, the grotesque demons are more funnier than terrible, and we can't see an expression of true pain and suffering on Christ or any dammed soul, rather they look anesthesiated. We are sure that these artists knew the suffering of the crowd, and the infortunate wince of the vulge, but their artworks were developed freely, due to a stable, secure peace. Is not that the virtue that Alice would be supposed to have? That is the point that I was trying to reach.
Alice, indeed is a true piece of art, made to be praiseworthy through all times.

Moving on with another topic, I will take as an example what Chi-no said about Kira, and that is why I think the separation between manga and anime storylines was a little too wrong (even if the producers did not have enough story plot). People who doesn't know anything about the RM issue (90% of the viewers) would get very confused at the end of Tra&#252;mend because of the similarity between these two dolls, even it is not in personality. I'm not "foreseeing", that truly happened in the spanish fandom.

[Kageitenshi]

Alice, indeed is a true piece of art, made to be praiseworthy through all times.

Nice way to sum it up in one sentence, couldn't have said it better ^__^
If indeed Alice was a piece of art, she'd definitely be one to stir anyone's heart throughout the times and mind no matter the age, gender, life values or personality.

That kind of reminds me of a story from the Bible adapted to modern day, nothing's changed but the names and the settings.
And the funny thing about wine and the arts, they only ever get better by the age; Mona Lisa's smile has only reached more viewers to intrique and to boggle the minds of scientists, modern artists and even conspiracy theorists. There indeed are things in life that hold at least the same value if not more in these modern times
Rozen Maiden sure made me want to get at least one real porcelain doll and if it would be that of Gin-sama it'd be perfect, wouldn't mind having them all ofcourse.

Moving on with another topic, I will take as an example what Chi-no said about Kira, and that is why I think the separation between manga and anime storylines was a little too wrong (even if the producers did not have enough story plot). People who doesn't know anything about the RM issue (90% of the viewers) would get very confused at the end of Tra&#252;mend because of the similarity between these two dolls, even it is not in personality. I'm not "foreseeing", that truly happened in the spanish fandom.

It's indeed confusing and I wonder why Peach-Pit took such a different approach in adapting the story. It's confusing and even more so when people who haven't read the manga hear about it from those who have and try to fill in with it
The difference in itself is not really all that wrong in my opinion, since one can enjoy both the manga and the anime as separate stories instead of having the same thing in two formats. Just wish the manga would be available here
That said, wonder if they'll ever make an anime version from the manga storyline, or at least a couple episodes OVA to compliment the current series. Though honestly some things are better in the good old ink and paper way.

[Blablabla]

People who doesn't know anything about the RM issue (90% of the viewers) would get very confused at the end of Tra&#252;mend because of the similarity between these two dolls, even it is not in personality. I'm not "foreseeing", that truly happened in the spanish fandom.

I don't see why. At this point of the story they will know that
- there are actually 7 Rozen Maiden
- Barasuishou is note the real 7th one
- An other doll appears in the last moments of Traumed.
It's quite easy to get that this doll is the real 7th one and that Bara's design may have been inspired by hers (since Rozen was Enju's master). Even they don't know the name of that doll. I watched the both seasons without knowing anything about the manga... And I had no problem with that doll (I even thought that she was a gentle one )

[Kageitenshi]

I agree with this, it's no problem for those who don't know of the manga to begin with. Only some halfway through Tr&#228;umend when we saw more of Bara did I realize from the fanart and such that I had been downloading between the series that there were pictures of another doll looking like Barasuishou. By the time I saw Bara with Enju, it had become clear to me that she was his doll based on the one I had found pictures on the web. I then went on to search forums, including this one as this had been one of my sources for the pics, just to satisfy my curiosity really before continuing with the marathon of watching it all in one night. It wasn't a problem at all, just cleared my mind of doubt. It turned confusing only after going through the talk about differences between the anime and manga.

It's such a great scene with the Kukui's Kamp playing on the background when Barasuishou is introduced. The way she was portrayed attacking without warning and just repeating Gin's words was... spine shiveringly intriquing. Hm, have to put that song on

[Deathkillz]

season 3 seriously need to show how kira smashes, crushes and destroys all the other dolls ~ besides gin as she will be locked up in a cage as kira's sex slave ~ what am i thinking!? poor gin

[Kageitenshi]

You sick bastard!
Oh, wrong animation...

Anyhooo... I wonder about the "cartoon violence" part of season 3, unless Kira is a totally psychotic puppet for Laplace's "fun and games"
How about a love triangle? Between Kira and the reappearing Bara, who refused to be taken in by either dolls' heaven or hell and was thrown back to earth and now lives with Kira and Gin - since both adore Gin... Not to forget Megu the molester. If we need violence, I guess someone could torture Mit-chan into submission before she hugs them dolls into pieces.

[the.Merines]

Yes! That's the plot for season 3 right there: torture Micchan.

[Megu-chan]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

You sick bastard!
Oh, wrong animation...

Anyhooo... I wonder about the "cartoon violence" part of season 3, unless Kira is a totally psychotic puppet for Laplace's "fun and games"
How about a love triangle? Between Kira and the reappearing Bara, who refused to be taken in by either dolls' heaven or hell and was thrown back to earth and now lives with Kira and Gin - since both adore Gin... Not to forget Megu the molester. If we need violence, I guess someone could torture Mit-chan into submission before she hugs them dolls into pieces.

Somehow..and it seems weird, but Megu does sort of seem the type to be a molester...must be her medications she's on

[Kageitenshi]

Megu wa chikan desu wa ne~?


Not just her medication... buchimake matsuri...
Would have translated that pic by now if I had yet to bother reinstalling the dictionaries

[Suiseiseki]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

Gin rape. Gin rape. It's awwwrrrright!

[Deathkillz]

^ but you can tell she is enjoying it otherwise megu will have feathers sticking out of her body XD

and beauty speaks for itself...*jumps up and down*

Spoiler:

[Flo]

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

You sick bastard!
Oh, wrong animation...

Anyhooo... I wonder about the "cartoon violence" part of season 3, unless Kira is a totally psychotic puppet for Laplace's "fun and games"

Honestly I think it'll be the other way round, Kira will be toying Lapace around like a puppet for Kira's psychotic pleasure.

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

How about a love triangle? Between Kira and the reappearing Bara, who refused to be taken in by either dolls' heaven or hell and was thrown back to earth and now lives with Kira and Gin - since both adore Gin... Not to forget Megu the molester.

Chances are Bara will get owned and dies again, mainly by Kira. With Kira's obsession and mind games on Gin, Gin will fear for Megu's safety and breaks her contract with Megu quietly when she's asleep. Megu, who will be enraged, sadden and somewhat lost her mind/rationality after Gin left her and runs away from the hospital to search for Gin. The only thing that sustain her life will be taking painkillers/medication drugs, of course to add some drama her medications will have nasty side effects when taken (hallucination, drug addiction, very nasty head aches etc etc) . Thus making it seems that Gin breaking the contract endangers Megu more rather than saving her.

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

If we need violence, I guess someone could torture Mit-chan into submission before she hugs them dolls into pieces.

No comment.

[QueenNori]