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Old 2006-10-09, 13:57   Link #1
cheese no koma
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Opinions on Hitsugaya Toushirou [spoiler]

i would have to go for hitsugaya because the way aizen finishes him with just one arm makes him look like a total push over.

Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2006-10-09 at 16:32.
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Old 2006-10-09, 14:21   Link #2
Snubben_Pierre
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Originally Posted by cheese no koma View Post
i would have to go for hitsugaya because the way aizen finishes him with just one arm makes him look like a total push over.
Im gonna start with commenting your post, just to try to make you change your mind, although your allowed to think whatever you want..

Aizen first of all is easily above most of the captains in lvl, he finishes komamura,ichigo,renji easily on his own on mount execution.. he stops ichigos slice with a finger, ichigo the one that has defeated 3 captain lvls (although one is ranked vice captain but could probably turn into captain +
Spoiler:
..
so making that comparison is pretty unfair.. Hitsugaya fights pretty evenly with Gin (although unfortunateley we dont get to see such a huge battle there.. Also
Spoiler:
.

Although i think its hard to decide witch captain is weakest since many of them are specialists in diffrent areas i would claim komamura is the weakest, and his bankai didnt give me such a huge impression because of the size of it..

also Unohana, but she is very strong in the sense of medical skills so I cant say she is weakest..

You understand my reasoning? Im commenting on your post so we at least get some discussion in this thread.
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Old 2006-10-09, 14:27   Link #3
hdx514
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hitsu is inexperienced, but loosing easily to aizen does not in any way make him or komamura or anyone total push overs. if you're up to date on the manga...well, IF you are than you wouldn't have made that comment anyway.

there's really not enough evidence to decide who's the weakest. we pretty much know for sure the strongest, and several others who can't be the weakest, but that's all we know
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Old 2006-10-09, 15:10   Link #4
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
hitsu is inexperienced, but loosing easily to aizen does not in any way make him or komamura or anyone total push overs. if you're up to date on the manga...well, IF you are than you wouldn't have made that comment anyway.
You know, forgive me, but how do you know this? Maybe I missed something. Not to mention, What experience has to do Wiht Anything related to strenght?
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Old 2006-10-09, 15:36   Link #5
hdx514
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experience has NOTHING to do with anything strength-related? surely you jest! recall what byakuya was saying to renji when he easily defeated his newly acquired bankai form. why do you think they train for 6 years at the academy? or go on field trips before graduating? for fun? why do you think the oldest captain is also the strongest? and before you say anything, please don't give me the ichigo argument.
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Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2006-10-09 at 16:21.
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Old 2006-10-09, 15:58   Link #6
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
Spoiler:


experience has NOTHING to do with anything strength-related? surely you jest! recall what byakuya was saying to renji when he easily defeated his newly acquired bankai form. why do you think they train for 6 years at the academy? or go on field trips before graduating? for fun? why do you think the oldest captain is also the strongest? and before you say anything, please don't give me the ichigo argument.

Why? because Ichigo in just some 4 months became one of the strongest and thus destroying your assupmtion?

And then in this type of Series, The kids are usually the one that gets stronger than the old and experinced ones.

Ohh reagdading your Observation about the Manga:

Spoiler:


Once again, It seems you did not get my question reagarding your Observation, lets make it more clear:

Where It was stated that Hitsugaya is Inexperienced? You did not say he had less experince than others, You say he was inexperinced. how do you know he does not have more experince than Renji or Matsumoto? or any of the captains?
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:05   Link #7
billbrown
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
You know, forgive me, but how do you know this? Maybe I missed something. Not to mention, What experience has to do Wiht Anything related to strenght?
Experience has a lot to do with strength. What you're thinking of is potential, which Hitsu has in spades, being billed as a genius and achieving bankai at such an age. But what experience does is enhance technique, and technique acts as a modifier to strength; It's not how hard you swing, but how well you can swing it. Now what happens when you can swing both hard and very well? That's the effect experience has on strength.

Take a look at Byakuya's fight against Renji, where he mentioned that it takes years of training to master your bankai after achieving it. Then he proceeded to fight Ichigo, and is the only bankai user if I remember to show multiple facets of his bankai(first the multiple swords, then the combining of them into one powerful sword). I think that second element comes from his experience with bankai.

On a side note, first time poster, long time reader.
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:08   Link #8
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Experience has a lot to do with strength. What you're thinking of is potential, which Hitsu has in spades, being billed as a genius and achieving bankai at such an age. But what experience does is enhance technique, and technique acts as a modifier to strength; It's not how hard you swing, but how well you can swing it. Now what happens when you can swing both hard and very well? That's the effect experience has on strength.
Experience has a lot to do with strength when you need to have an Idea of someone strenght when they are not Characters as Important as the principals, and then, Kubo could care less about that and Have Aizen Beating Yamamato.


Once again, Experince can help you dictate the strenght but at the end, The most experinced does not equates in the strongest. this is a series where 17 years old are the one that beats everybody.
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:10   Link #9
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Why? because Ichigo in just some 4 months became one of the strongest and thus destroying your assupmtion?
I would agree that you can't pull out an Ichigo card because he is the exception that proves the rule. Everyone is so tremendously surprised by Ichigo's growth that it supports the precedent that bankai achievement and mastery do take experience. Not to mention he's the main character lol. Even Ichigo faltered in his first use of bankai against Byakuya, and without his hollow intervening Ichigo would've been a goner.
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:13   Link #10
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I would agree that you can't pull out an Ichigo card because he is the exception that proves the rule. Everyone is so tremendously surprised by Ichigo's growth that it supports the precedent that bankai achievement and mastery do take experience. Not to mention he's the main character lol. Even Ichigo faltered in his first use of bankai against Byakuya, and without his hollow intervening Ichigo would've been a goner.
Is all the way around, Ichihgo is the example why The Experience is strenght analogy is incorrect, not only Ichigo gets stronger and defeat those who are more expericed thanks to plot drven situations, but Ichigo been a Principal Character does not take the fact that he still Defeated this people with his strenght, Just like Chad And Ishida.
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:20   Link #11
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Is all the way around, Ichihgo is the example why The Experience is strenght analogy is incorrect, not only Ichigo gets stronger and defeat those who are more expericed thanks to plot drven situations, but Ichigo been a Principal Character does not take the fact that he still Defeated this people with his strenght, Just like Chad And Ishida.
We almost never see Chad fight and Ishida uses a more strategic approach to his fighting.
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:25   Link #12
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Why? because Ichigo in just some 4 months became one of the strongest and thus destroying your assupmtion?
here we go again. just what's with you "if it applies to ichigo, it applies to everyone" people? ichigo is the protagonist of the series, he is THE KID. hitsu is a popular supporting role.

you know why we can't use ichigo's argument? because if several months is all it takes IN GENERAL to get to captain class, then EVERYONE in S.S. would be captain class. power is related to experience IN GENERAL. that's why it takes decades to learn and master bankai IN GENERAL. you said experience doesn't have ANYTHING to do with power, i say it does IN GENERAL

Quote:
You cleverly avoided the fact that all of them were under the Control placed on them by SS, so Shawlong Observation is moot about Hitusgaya
didn't you just cleverly avoided my renji example?

Quote:
Where It was stated that Hitsugaya is Inexperienced? You did not say he had less experince than others, You say he was inexperinced. how do you know he does not have more experince than Renji or Matsumoto? or any of the captains?
recall the original name of this thread was who's the weakest CAPTAIN. which means everyone else from VC to seats were OUT OF THE QUESTION at the time of my post. if i say hitsugaya is the weakest in this thread, who'd you think i'm comparing him to, matsumoto? hanataro? ryukongai citizen? geez. compared to all other captains, hitsu the least experienced, obviously because he is the youngest. they wouldn't be calling him a boy genius if he actually became captain after getting more battle/training experience than some of the other captains now would they?
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:35   Link #13
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Hitsu has been a captian for less then 50 years as he had not even started school when Renji and co had. Aside from Gin, and likely Tousen and Komamura all have had at least 50 years as captians plus an unknown time that was > then 50 years as seated officers.

Ichigo's potential is stronger the just about everyone by a HUGE factor, he has never gained a "power up" just learned how to unlock the power he already had and even then I can't think of a single time he has had a clean win durring a fight.
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Old 2006-10-09, 16:42   Link #14
hdx514
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Is all the way around, Ichihgo is the example why The Experience is strenght analogy is incorrect, not only Ichigo gets stronger and defeat those who are more expericed thanks to plot drven situations, but Ichigo been a Principal Character does not take the fact that he still Defeated this people with his strenght, Just like Chad And Ishida.
this is utterly moronic. one or several exceptions to a mathematical model of a real life system does not invalidate that model, just like a crashed 747 does not make commercial fights unsafe, or relativity does not make newtonian mechanics incorrect. heard of the normal/gaussian distribution? with your logic, i could randomly pick the height distribution of any town and totally put this model to rest while getting the fields medal
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Old 2006-10-09, 19:23   Link #15
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Spoiler for manga:
Spoiler for Don't read if you're not up to date with the manga:
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Old 2006-10-09, 22:23   Link #16
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Hitsugaya maybe a prodigy in terms of talent and was also fastest shinigami to attain Taicho Rank .

But he is greeen horn in terms of power . I mean due to excess fan-girlism followed everywhere in terms of his chibi Kwaii-ness . He is overhyped more than his actual poptential . No doubt he is a good Taicho but no where near greatness , as many Bleach Otaku rate him as


Spoiler for Manga:


NO he is not the weakest Taicho in Sendai no Gotei , there are weaker Taichos like Tosen Komamura and Gin
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Old 2006-10-10, 01:45   Link #17
cheese no koma
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i have yet to read the manga, so pardon me. Up till now, histugaya has yet to win a fight, a draw with gin, a lost to aizen, and he's even struggling when facing ichinose, a VC level shinigami. At least Aizen feels the need to use his 'finger' to stop ichigo's slash and a strong kidou to repel kamamura, and besides, ichigo was hurt at that time by byakuya so he's not up to his best yet, and kamamura was fighting with zaraki, but hitsugaya was in tip top condition. i thought that he should at least exchange a few sword blows first before being owned so easily along with his bankai.
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Old 2006-10-10, 02:50   Link #18
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Spoiler for Don't read if you're not up to date with the manga:
click this if u have read the manga
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-10-10, 03:13   Link #19
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@cheese no koma: ichinose is out of discussion, he's a filler character. Aizen had the time to cast a black coffin BECAUSE he had his shikai on. Similarly he oso shikai'ed hitsugaya. Lots of evidence proves that he probably did the same to ichigo, though it isnt clear. You might as well say, aizen didnt even bother to pull a sword against komamura :roll:
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Old 2006-10-10, 03:38   Link #20
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@cheese no koma: ichinose is out of discussion, he's a filler character. Aizen had the time to cast a black coffin BECAUSE he had his shikai on. Similarly he oso shikai'ed hitsugaya. Lots of evidence proves that he probably did the same to ichigo, though it isnt clear. You might as well say, aizen didnt even bother to pull a sword against komamura :roll:

Spoiler:
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