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Old 2009-05-20, 08:02   Link #41
ShinAkuma135
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Originally Posted by kitten320 View Post
Why not improve it against someone who is at your level or a bit stronger?
Not against who is 10 times stronger!

Was it some other espada, same Lupi, I wouldn't mind.

But what irritates even more is the fact that he is placed against enemy who gives him advantage(Water VS Ice)... why others can't get such bonus?

For example Soi Fon on the other hand is put at the biggest disadvantage ever! If it was at least half of dissadvantage, it would be fine but not 100% dissadvantage!

If Soi Fon won't pull any tricks then those 2 fights will be really fucked up
i completely agree with this. he seemed to be barely managing against lupi the lunatic and all of a sudden he's doing fine against 3rd espada??? it would work if halibel ends up having a lightning ability...oh wait a minute...there's two lightning marks on her face so mayyyybeeee....GASP! could halibel possibly have dual elements?

lol at the soi fon thing....her speed is useless, as is pretty much anything else.
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Old 2009-05-20, 08:17   Link #42
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Originally Posted by ShinAkuma135 View Post
i completely agree with this. he seemed to be barely managing against lupi the lunatic and all of a sudden he's doing fine against 3rd espada??? it would work if halibel ends up having a lightning ability...oh wait a minute...there's two lightning marks on her face so mayyyybeeee....GASP! could halibel possibly have dual elements?

lol at the soi fon thing....her speed is useless, as is pretty much anything else.
Now that you meantion it... it really could be!
Then her powers will be almost the same as Ukitake since he also must control both of them.

Exactly! This is so unfair!
If she was a popular character who appears as much as Hitsugaya, that wouldn't really matter... but we never saw her in proper fight and she never had a chance to do something and now she has even less chances to show what she is capable of

Althought she always was thoughtful and now it seems she has something planned, hope it'll work.
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Old 2009-05-20, 08:31   Link #43
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I hope kubo don't cave and have hitsu pawned. The most realistic character in bleach deserves all the glory he can get.
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Old 2009-05-20, 10:08   Link #44
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Originally Posted by reinloch View Post
I hope kubo don't cave and have hitsu pawned. The most realistic character in bleach deserves all the glory he can get.
Its probably the other way around, Kubo will probably have Hitsu own halibel since hes the most popular character.
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Old 2009-05-20, 10:15   Link #45
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Okay, here's the problem with these arguments. They are all the same. No new points are ever brought up. Let's look at it this way ... The whole "he's popular so he gets screen time and power ups!" thing is getting old. You know who else is popular? Shunsui. You know who else? Ukitake. But do they get any screen time? No. Point is, it's not so much the FANS who are judging how much air time he gets. It's Kubo. Hell, he was getting a lot of airtime even before those polls. Maybe Kubo just really likes this character. But regardless, that argument is old.

Another thing is the whole "well he's fighting 3! But he was struggling with Lupi! This is so stupid!" You know what? I can kind of agree with this. Accept, I see the WHOLE situation as stupid, where other people are just seeing it as stupid BECAUSE It's Hitsugaya. Nevermind the fact that Soi Fon absolutely should NOT be fighting Barragan. The fact that in all reality, Captain-Commander should have taken out as many Arrancar as possible when he released his Shikai. Because it's a WAR. War is all out chaos.

Point is, this whole scene shouldn't be happening unless it's being used as Dues Ex Machina. The reason I say that is because we were told that Shinigami had a limit, and to break that limit you must gain hollow powers. Therefore Hollow/Shinigami hybrids should be just stronger. Period. Just better in EVERYWAY. But from what we've seen, these "incredibly powerful" arrancar are nothing more but fodder. Again. Which is really depressing. If the storyline was going in the same direction as it was trying to direct itself to a couple of years ago, we wouldn't have this battle at all, really. It'd be up to the Vizards to match the might of the Arrancar. But instead ... The captains are able to do it.

If Ichigo is captain level, and also a Vizard, yet he straight up died to the level four Espada, then how is it that captain level shinigami with no hollow powers are holding ground? Any of them?

Don't get me wrong, I love Shunsui, and I REALLY want to see him do something amazing. Even if he won, I wouldn't be upset, only because it'd be sort of like a "see? He really is strong, he just never fights", sort of deal. But in all reality, he should lose. Only because of what we saw with the fourth level Espada. As should Soi Fon, and so should Hitsugaya. That is IF these Espada are going to have ANY more character development and actually contribute to the series. If not, they are simply Dues Ex Machina. They are being used to go "man they sure are strong! But look the good guys won! Oh wait .. you mean those Espada weren't the strongest? Then who IS? Oh no!" sort of deal.

The point is, it's stupid to constantly rant about Hitsugaya fighting Halibel when in all reality, it's stupid for any of them to be fighting, unless they were Vizard. But that's just it. It's Shounen, so when you try to make too much sense of it, it's just going to be depressing. You just need to sit back and enjoy what's being given to you and try not to question too much, or you will find the loop holes and end up disliking it. Just. Let. It. Go.
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Old 2009-05-20, 10:24   Link #46
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^ Ukitake and Shunsui are no near Hitsugaya's popularity, actually in polls they are pretty low... Even Momo is more popular than Zaraki! But I can't argue about her since she didn't have that much screen time. I don't care about Momo but I do have to admit that I would like to see her angry again.

Hitsugaya is more popular than Ichigo!
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Old 2009-05-20, 10:24   Link #47
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Originally Posted by SimplyAJ View Post
Okay, here's the problem with these arguments. They are all the same. No new points are ever brought up. Let's look at it this way ... The whole "he's popular so he gets screen time and power ups!" thing is getting old. You know who else is popular? Shunsui. You know who else? Ukitake. But do they get any screen time? No. Point is, it's not so much the FANS who are judging how much air time he gets. It's Kubo. Hell, he was getting a lot of airtime even before those polls. Maybe Kubo just really likes this character. But regardless, that argument is old.

Another thing is the whole "well he's fighting 3! But he was struggling with Lupi! This is so stupid!" You know what? I can kind of agree with this. Accept, I see the WHOLE situation as stupid, where other people are just seeing it as stupid BECAUSE It's Hitsugaya. Nevermind the fact that Soi Fon absolutely should NOT be fighting Barragan. The fact that in all reality, Captain-Commander should have taken out as many Arrancar as possible when he released his Shikai. Because it's a WAR. War is all out chaos.

Point is, this whole scene shouldn't be happening unless it's being used as Dues Ex Machina. The reason I say that is because we were told that Shinigami had a limit, and to break that limit you must gain hollow powers. Therefore Hollow/Shinigami hybrids should be just stronger. Period. Just better in EVERYWAY. But from what we've seen, these "incredibly powerful" arrancar are nothing more but fodder. Again. Which is really depressing. If the storyline was going in the same direction as it was trying to direct itself to a couple of years ago, we wouldn't have this battle at all, really. It'd be up to the Vizards to match the might of the Arrancar. But instead ... The captains are able to do it.

If Ichigo is captain level, and also a Vizard, yet he straight up died to the level four Espada, then how is it that captain level shinigami with no hollow powers are holding ground? Any of them?

Don't get me wrong, I love Shunsui, and I REALLY want to see him do something amazing. Even if he won, I wouldn't be upset, only because it'd be sort of like a "see? He really is strong, he just never fights", sort of deal. But in all reality, he should lose. Only because of what we saw with the fourth level Espada. As should Soi Fon, and so should Hitsugaya. That is IF these Espada are going to have ANY more character development and actually contribute to the series. If not, they are simply Dues Ex Machina. They are being used to go "man they sure are strong! But look the good guys won! Oh wait .. you mean those Espada weren't the strongest? Then who IS? Oh no!" sort of deal.

The point is, it's stupid to constantly rant about Hitsugaya fighting Halibel when in all reality, it's stupid for any of them to be fighting, unless they were Vizard. But that's just it. It's Shounen, so when you try to make too much sense of it, it's just going to be depressing. You just need to sit back and enjoy what's being given to you and try not to question too much, or you will find the loop holes and end up disliking it. Just. Let. It. Go.

Bold part is not all true though.

The part that if you have reached your limit as a shinigami to become stronger you need to go hollowmode is, but everyone have different limits.

So if a weaker shinigami breaks his limits and gain hollowpowers doesnt have to make him stronger then a shinigami that has a higher limit imo
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Old 2009-05-20, 10:28   Link #48
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Bold part is not all true though.

The part that if you have reached your limit as a shinigami to become stronger you need to go hollowmode is, but everyone have different limits.

So if a weaker shinigami breaks his limits and gain hollowpowers doesnt have to make him stronger then a shinigami that has a higher limit imo
True!
actually with the way Ichigo is presented, even his hollow mask doesn't put him at captain level. At least not with biggest part.
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Old 2009-05-20, 11:09   Link #49
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Hm. Was it actually said that people have different limits? I mean, we could assume they do, but I wasn't sure if they actually flat out said it or not.

And, as much as I dislike them, it almost seems as if everyone has the same limit if you go by those old power charts. Simply because each section has a cap to it. Or so it seems.

Granted, you can't really go by those to judge how captains would measure up against eachother, but you could use them to judge how a captain fairs in certain ways of battle. But yeah.
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Old 2009-05-20, 11:35   Link #50
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Hm. Was it actually said that people have different limits? I mean, we could assume they do, but I wasn't sure if they actually flat out said it or not.

And, as much as I dislike them, it almost seems as if everyone has the same limit if you go by those old power charts. Simply because each section has a cap to it. Or so it seems.

Granted, you can't really go by those to judge how captains would measure up against eachother, but you could use them to judge how a captain fairs in certain ways of battle. But yeah.
Well in real life every human has his own limit, so I really doubt that in fictional world they are all the same.
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Old 2009-05-20, 11:41   Link #51
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Hm. Was it actually said that people have different limits? I mean, we could assume they do, but I wasn't sure if they actually flat out said it or not.

And, as much as I dislike them, it almost seems as if everyone has the same limit if you go by those old power charts. Simply because each section has a cap to it. Or so it seems.

Granted, you can't really go by those to judge how captains would measure up against eachother, but you could use them to judge how a captain fairs in certain ways of battle. But yeah.
Ofcourse they have different limitcaps, the databook from where those charts come from shows the captains potential in each area and how much of it they have fullfilled.
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Old 2009-05-20, 11:43   Link #52
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Originally Posted by SimplyAJ View Post
The reason I say that is because we were told that Shinigami had a limit, and to break that limit you must gain hollow powers. Therefore Hollow/Shinigami hybrids should be just stronger. Period. Just better in EVERYWAY. But from what we've seen, these "incredibly powerful" arrancar are nothing more but fodder. .
This is the polnt I want to make absolutely clear with myself. Didn't they imply somewhere way back that only a Vast Lorde would be stronger than a captain? If that's the case then they haven't neccessairly contradicted anything.
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Old 2009-05-20, 12:40   Link #53
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Well in real life every human has his own limit, so I really doubt that in fictional world they are all the same.
You really shouldn't ever say the words "Well in real life" when discussing a manga. Especially one that involves ghosts killing other ghosts with swords.

But yeah. Just because REAL humans have different limits doesn't mean that there can't be a limit on the power shinigami are able to attain. Like as a whole. I mean, I'm open to it either way, but just saying, when it comes to something as unpredictable as Bleach, you can't really knock the idea.



From what I remember, adjuchas class are like the "vice captain" class of Hollow, where as Vasto Lorde are more or less the "captain" class of Hollow. Either that or slightly higher.
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Old 2009-05-20, 13:46   Link #54
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Captain Hitsugaya is a child prodigy. He achieved Bankai at a young age (relative to the others in SS). Worked his way up the ranks and became Captain in record time. Not only that, he's is said to be in possession of the most powerful Ice-Zanpakuto. I don't find it hard to believe that this kid is constantly improving. He's done quite a bit of fighting lately, so those battles have only made him stronger. And the potential is still their for him to get stronger (I assume, he is young). Hell, I doubt any of the current Captain were half as badass at his age. We saw Byakuya training way back when, and hedidn't look half as strong, and look at him now.

Truth be told, I've been a little disappointed with Hyōrinmaru so far. It never really seemed that strong, compared to Rukia's sword (minus Bankai, since Rukia doesn't have it yet) it seemed pretty average in overall abilities. So I'm happy that he's unlocking more of his sword's abilities. It is best Ice-based weapon, of course it's going to have a multitude of deadly attacks, or it wouldn't be the best.

I figure, Hitsugaya either recently learned these attacks, or he held them back for strong opponents. It's possible, that he had to hold back Hyōrinmaru true destructive power, when fighting in the real world because it would have been way to damaging to Karakura Town. Now that the town is empty, he can fight at 100%. For all we know, Hitsugaya could have Yamamoto level strength in that arrogant, miniature body of his just waiting to break free.

Go Hitsugaya, show then why you're the bestest most popular Shinigami ever.

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Old 2009-05-20, 14:05   Link #55
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Captain Hitsugaya is a child prodigy. He achieved Bankai at a young age (relative to the others in SS). Worked his way up the ranks and became Captain in record time. Not only that, he's is said to be in possession of the most powerful Ice-Zanpakuto. I don't find it hard to believe that this kid is constantly improving. He's done quite a bit of fighting lately, so those battles have only made him stronger. And the potential is still their for him to get stronger (I assume, he is young). Hell, I doubt any of the current Captain were half as badass at his age. We saw Byakuya training way back when, and hedidn't look half as strong, and look at him now.

Truth be told, I've been a little disappointed with Hyōrinmaru so far. It never really seemed that strong, compared to Rukia's sword (minus Bankai, since Rukia doesn't have it yet) it seemed pretty average in overall abilities. So I'm happy that he's unlocking more of his sword's abilities. It is best Ice-based weapon, of course it's going to have a multitude of deadly attacks, or it wouldn't be the best.

I figure, Hitsugaya either recently learned these attacks, or he held them back for strong opponents. It's possible, that he had to hold back Hyōrinmaru true destructive power, when fighting in the real world because it would have been way to damaging to Karakura Town. Now that the town is empty, he can fight at 100%. For all we know, Hitsugaya could have Yamamoto level strength in that arrogant, miniature body of his just waiting to break free.

Go Hitsugaya, show then why you're the bestest most popular Shinigami ever.
Wow just wow, comparing that midget to Yamamoto its just wrong. Yama wouldnt even need to go Shikai to destroy him.
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Old 2009-05-20, 14:24   Link #56
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Why not improve it against someone who is at your level or a bit stronger?
Not against who is 10 times stronger!

Was it some other espada, same Lupi, I wouldn't mind.

But what irritates even more is the fact that he is placed against enemy who gives him advantage(Water VS Ice)... why others can't get such bonus?

For example Soi Fon on the other hand is put at the biggest disadvantage ever! If it was at least half of dissadvantage, it would be fine but not 100% dissadvantage!

If Soi Fon won't pull any tricks then those 2 fights will be really fucked up
I get what you're saying but how does this actually fault Toshiro's character in the manga?

Ice vs water thing: Didnt she say that its not as advantageous as people originally thought it would be. Also Im pretty sure Hitsugaya had dibs on his ice element looooong before she revealed her water affiliation. If people are going to get peeved at the element match wouldnt it make more sense to annoyed at shark lady?

But shes cool right? Its not her fault she was given water is what your thinkng huh?...well then you might as well get angry at the God of bleach and curse Kubo's name instead of Hitsugaya too. Its not his fault he was put up against #3.

With Soi Fon's battle yea, she looks like shes in a corner and struggling, but again how does that relate to Hitsugaya? Why is there rage on him...I get it if he whispered into skeleton emperor over there to go straight for Soi Fons arm...but I dont think he did, so why is Hitsugaya a black hole for all Bleach frustrations?

Again unless people can fault his actually bankai and moves that I explained then actual hate for what the characters does is pretty thin.

Sure you CAN hate shorty for his POPULARITY but when it comes to his nitpick of the week neutral defenders (not even hardcore fans) will rely on manga canon to show that popular or not, hes not nearly broken as everyone makes him out to be.
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:05   Link #57
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Hm. Was it actually said that people have different limits? I mean, we could assume they do, but I wasn't sure if they actually flat out said it or not.

And, as much as I dislike them, it almost seems as if everyone has the same limit if you go by those old power charts. Simply because each section has a cap to it. Or so it seems.

Granted, you can't really go by those to judge how captains would measure up against eachother, but you could use them to judge how a captain fairs in certain ways of battle. But yeah.
well aizen reached the limit of his shinigami powers at over twice captain level so i think all captains besides yama-jii still have room for improvement
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:52   Link #58
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I try to present it on numbers:
Let's just say that to be a captain you have to be 90-100 points and your limit is like 125 and that is the number that Yama-ji and Azien (if he's not enchanted by some way) have. Then by rising your limit why Arrancars and Vaizard can get to 200 or 300. Even if they can get to 150 that is still higher than 125, right?
Of course those below Espada aren't 100 pointers, but I'm guessing that at least top 4 or top3 Espada are above 125 or else this limit thing would be made up just for giggles. It would be like they can be stronger, but it's so hard that nobody except Aizen and Ichigo can be...

When Ichigo was facing Byakuya he wasn't at Byakuya's "captain level" or at least he was slowing down because he wasn't experianced with his Bankai (that is a joke these days btw). Ichigo had to use his hollow powers to win. Then we meet Vaizards that can kick Ichigo's ass all over the place (unless he goes super hollow on them - Hiyaro had a little dose of what killed Ulq). Ichigo now suppose to be beyond anything we've seen so far. He must maintain his hollow side just to fight Grimjaw that is 6. But then just before the war we get Kepachi deafet 5 and Byakuya deafet 7 - that's the first nonesense, but after seeing him awesoming nobody complains, but that lead us to Espada = Captains. It's just that if you have a technique that has an advantage you can win, like Byakuya could use his bankai to block his opponents super power (if he only took control over his opponent when he had a chance).
Even if Ulq did second transformation on Ichigo, he already was cleaning the floor with him when he first realesed, it was just additional fan service for him. Now we have 4th espada realese > vaizard ichigo, plus superhollow ichigo > 4? Espada (he might be stronger since he said that 2nd realese was a secret). Vaizard Ichigo > Byakuya (fully trained Bankai Ichigo > Byakuya).
Now ask yourself who's stronger enough than Byakuya to even match 3rd Espada...


I'd like to point out that after whole 100years ago time line events we all know that Zaraki was a captain longer than Byakuya or anyonelse than Unohana and old trio.



When I said that Komamaru destroy all logic in bleach I was already aware that it's astory about guys in pijamas (kimono desu ne~) running around being invisible and killing people that put on some masks and become monsters. I was just saying that if you accept a world where something like that is possible (like any other shounen has some creazy shit) then there pops a furry guys with fox head and ruins it. Bleach could be new creazy take on life after death and unexpleinable deaths, but when something as animeish as big talking doggy pops up, it doesn't make sense. Kon makes more sense than our foxy captain.


I understand that Hitsugaya isn't the one that born himself, and it was Kubo that made him do crap, but Kubo made some cool stuff like Rangiku's breast or Helibeli's breast or Yoruichi's nakes scenes so we just blaim him for the bad things he did, not give up on Bleach all togheter cause we all hope that one day Rangiku's boobs might pop out when someone scares her XD


SoiFong had her cariere ruined when she turned out to be lesbian (at least in anime). There are gay guys and lesbians but they get small parts and only for jokes. Kubo doesn't take them even less serious than woman. "Strong woman with personality, right~ Bwuhahahahaha" We can see what happened to Rukia when she had strong personality - she was trown into a cell and sentenced to death till she started crying and being unreiable shits like all the girls should be...
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Old 2009-05-20, 15:54   Link #59
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HitsuBoss is boss, nuff said.
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Old 2009-05-20, 16:15   Link #60
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HitsuBoss is boss, nuff said.
who's that?
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