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Old 2007-07-22, 16:50   Link #201
Rias
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But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?
In Minagoroshi-hen, it was expressed that "a tragedy should not be adverted by killing another person.". Also whenever one of the club members has to kill someone, that world is considered "lost" to Rika. That was what made me feel that the moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei, Tsumihoroboshi-hen started.


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She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.
There's no edvidence to suggest that if Rena killed Rina, she doesn't kill Teppei after. It just seem quite natural that once Rina's been killed (after approaching Rena's father), that Teppei would show up and try to blackmail Rena's father anyway. When that happens, since Teppei doesn't even move back to Hinamizawa, Satoko isn't affected. The only guilt Rena might have towards Satoko is the disappearance of Satoshi, as they couldn't do anything to help Satoshi/Satoko. Of course, more guilt when Tatarigoroshi/Tsukiotoshi occurs.
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Old 2007-07-22, 20:01   Link #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Yes I never wanted to contradict that. I think her Delusional Parasitosis started after the tried-rape during her school-time outside Hinamizawa, she felt dirty and the guilt she felt because of the divorce of her parents added to her weak psychological state. She just managed to supress it after she returned to Hinamizawa, but when Rina made a pass on her father it was getting stronger again and she started lossing her sanity.
Well, the syndrom really begun when rena begun to self mutilate. but not really important anyway ^^"
I believe the curse of Oyashiro-sama is just a catalyst but also a "limiter" to her madness. Basically, she put EVERYTHING she thought guilty/filth and the like into Oyashiro-sama. This belief is really peculiar with Rena, since the Curse has 2 effects :
  • Decreases her own doubts, guilt, misconception, since "everything is because of oyashiro"
  • Increase her down doubts and paranoia, when anything looks related with the village and the like.
Considering the dicease triggers and a possible "placebo" effect (since she believe she will be forgiven if she returns to hinamizawa), Rena was indeed able to suppress the effects of the syndrom by returning in the village.
It is safe to assume that her "Hauu" behaviour was also another "inhibitor" to her madness, as explained in Tsumihoroboshi.

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Hmm ok so I think the biggest problem is which medium we see as the really 'true' Higurashi, because in the PS2 version there is a scene, very early in the game, when you go shopping with Rena, that shows that Rina seems to be a certain factor in her life.
This scene occurs, as far as I know, without any real connection to the following arc, so I stay with my theory of them being a permanent factor.
But I think that is also part of finding your own explanation to Higurashi
The thing is Matsuri game was designed so the world would be coherent, and so, the starting point can lead to anything. So that starting point must have the "basis" events, so it would make sense for the rest.

Considering the lack of evidence in either the PC VN or the manga, it is pretty safe to say that every "trigger" scenes doesn't always ocur in each Chapter, or else, there would be many problems...


Quote:
Well this is the problem with Takano, I don't think that she intentionaly chooses one of the gang in each arc and that she always gets the right one who is in a weak emotional state.
Because in Tsumihoroboshi Oishi was able to aquire several of Takanos scrapbooks, some of them from the Sonozaki household, it seemed to me like Takano approaches several people in each arc, but only those who are in a weakened stage show real 'interest' in her theories, while others cast her aside as a random Occult-otaku.
The fact that none of the friends really share something other than their daily life in school with each other they never even get to think about Takanos involvement.
This is why i put " on "prey" ^^
Of course, she absolutely doesn't focus any specific person per se. The number of scrapbooks, and so, theories is large enough so she can reach/affect a large range of "paranoid subjects".
That said, i believe she somewhat "targets" a specific person when the condition are met (basically, obvious hints that person has a growing paranoia, i.e shion, thinking about the link between the murders and the Gosanke)
Of course, the fact that "madness" only touch Rika's friends might be more than a simple..."coincidence" with her...
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Old 2007-07-26, 13:21   Link #203
Davidj
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Originally Posted by Regel View Post
First of all, does Takano really wants to wipe Hinamizawa because of personal grudges?

As we know, she does all of these to become a "god"? How the Hinamizawa wiping will make her "god"?

And with the "Queen Carrier Theory" we get this: she want's to get that "queen" virus somehow from Rika. Then she'll become (as she thinks) the "reincarnation of oyashiro-sama" herself. In other word she thinks she will become a "god".
------------------------------

And what organizations do we have?
What is SDF and what is the "Yamainu Organization"?
SDF is merely the Japanese military. Yamainu (wolf) is the codename for the unit assigned to the project. For a while I entertained the theory that Takano did in fact want to replace Rika as the virus "queen"...but the fact is, her actions in the end are inconsistent with it. The Hinamazawans are killed at her urging and there's no point in being the queen without a hive.

It helped when I realised that the cannibalism thing is just one of Takano's lies using the eating of intestines to try to increase Shion's paranoia by freaking her out. Eating people's intestines is after all the closest thing Shinto has to blasphemy, which is why it features so prominently in Claymore. But the torture instruments are just torture instruments from the bad old days when the three families chose some rather harsh ways to keep people in line (or in the case of the Sonozaki, how they still express their displeasure with people who cross them). They are not cooking utensils.

I've heard this "become a god" thing in translation before and I think it would be more accurately be translated in this case as "playing god" in English, to make decisions and take actions which will determine who lives and who dies on a fairly large scale. She kills several thousand people believing that in so doing, she may be saving at least as many others by keeping Hinamazawa from turning back into Onigafuchi.

Incidentally I don't think it's a virus. Assuming I'm right and the vector is the town water supply then viruses don't fit the bill because viruses can only reproduce with the assistance of living cells. They don't float around freely in the water. That's why the diseases associated with water supply contamination tend to be bacterial growths like typhus, cholera and e. coli. Viruses are passed directly from animal to animal and we aren't seeing that here. The disease isn't spreading to people who don't live in Hinamazawa and the person we saw get infected didn't come into physical contact with an animal in the vicinity. Such an intensely localised infection militates in favour of environmental contamination.

I also considered and rejected prions. There was talk about eating people but no actual people-eating in the present going on. Tomitake and Keiichi developed massive cases without eating suspicious meat. Oiichi on the other hand didn't, but I credit that to his preference for coffee and beer.

Lastly I thought about bacteria, but that may not be quite right. I'm sure Japanese has a word for "bacteria" but the word used to describe the infection is always translated as "parasite". What's more, in 1983, they had loads of very effective antibiotics that worked on just about everything bacterial until over-use bred new more intractible strains. But what they didn't have was an antibiotic that would work on malaria, because malaria is not a bacterium. It's a protozoan parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoan. There were and are antimalarial drugs, but the course of treatment is long and uncertain even now. Assuming that they modelled HS on malaria, that also explains why Takano wanted to vivisect patients. Malaria operates by setting up an infection reservoir in the liver from which periodically the patient is reinfected. The proposed vivisection could have been with a mind toward locating the specific organ where the infection lies dormant so they could then pursue more targeted treatments.

Last edited by Davidj; 2007-07-26 at 13:35.
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Old 2007-07-27, 05:33   Link #204
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err... not really useful to quote and answer a post from october heh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidj View Post
I've heard this "become a god" thing in translation before and I think it would be more accurately be translated in this case as "playing god" in English, to make decisions and take actions which will determine who lives and who dies on a fairly large scale. She kills several thousand people believing that in so doing, she may be saving at least as many others by keeping Hinamazawa from turning back into Onigafuchi.
Considering the letter, there isn't really a clue if Takano Hifumi asked her to do a massacre. I believe he was rather asking her to do a genius stun, so she will be reverred. But Miyo has a rather twisted mind, and associated this with something else... (both carnage, and the "hero" part)
Quote:
Lastly I thought about bacteria, but that may not be quite right. I'm sure Japanese has a word for "bacteria" but the word used to describe the infection is always translated as "parasite". What's more, in 1983, they had loads of very effective antibiotics that worked on just about everything bacterial until over-use bred new more intractible strains. But what they didn't have was an antibiotic that would work on malaria, because malaria is not a bacterium. It's a protozoan parasite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoan. There were and are antimalarial drugs, but the course of treatment is long and uncertain even now. Assuming that they modelled HS on malaria, that also explains why Takano wanted to vivisect patients. Malaria operates by setting up an infection reservoir in the liver from which periodically the patient is reinfected. The proposed vivisection could have been with a mind toward locating the specific organ where the infection lies dormant so they could then pursue more targeted treatments.
Though the Syndrom is based on some effects really possible to happen in reality, the whole thing is rather a complete fictional point. Thus, we can't really assume if it might be "X", considering that some factors. (the fact the "bacteria" isn't trackable, and can't be found just a few hours after the death of the host)
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Old 2007-07-28, 23:41   Link #205
sezen_atacan
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I have a question about Saikoroshi-hen, it is suppose to be an extra arc but the summary for it seems interesting. What "perfect world" did Rika found herself in that makes her go off in a killing rampage(?)

After seeing 2nd series episode-4 today, isn't saikoroshi-hen the type of world Rika seeks? Now why would she want to destroy it? In Saikoroshi-hen. I don't know if this is suppose to be parody/dark-comedy since the other extra arc that came with this package is pure parody.
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Old 2007-07-29, 01:37   Link #206
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Originally Posted by sezen_atacan View Post
After seeing 2nd series episode-4 today, isn't saikoroshi-hen the type of world Rika seeks? Now why would she want to destroy it? In Saikoroshi-hen. I don't know if this is suppose to be parody/dark-comedy since the other extra arc that came with this package is pure parody.
Imagine, like Rika, that you spent a countless number of years trying to save the lives of yourself and friends... suffering in silence, as you put up a facade that isn't you in order to keep everyone happy. Finally, you accomplish your goal. But then, the past changes, and none of that ever happened; your friends no longer needed saving; all your effort was for naught. Moreover, you're just an ordinary person again. No one would possibly believe what you went through. If you want to interact with those you love, you'll have to put up that facade again.

Wouldn't you be a little bummed?
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Old 2007-07-30, 12:36   Link #207
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No, i Believe Rika wouldn't mind if after the struggle, everything became a happy ending.

however, what makes her insane is rather the "too happy" part of this world.
Since no character had their "drama", their developments weren't applied thus far.

As far as i could understand, Keiichi isn't there (since he probably didn't got any problem in school and/or didn't go psycho with airsoft gun), Shion and Mion didn't switch their places, Satoko has her niinii and her parents, thus far, Satoko is kinda spoiled, and the like. (IIRC, Rika also wanted to kick satoko's ass)

another player might confirm or not, but i believe Rika wasn't pleased with her friends become goody 2 shoes, without any "mature points" present in their struggling.
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Old 2007-07-31, 23:42   Link #208
Rias
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Basically the world of Saikoroshi-hen is the best for everyone but Rika.

Spoiler for saikoroshi-hen elements:
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Old 2007-08-01, 12:11   Link #209
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To add to what Rias said:

Spoiler for Yes, this is a major spoiler summary:
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オヤシロさまドットコム テレビアニメ「ひぐらしのなく頃に解」公式サイト
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Old 2007-08-01, 19:25   Link #210
sezen_atacan
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So Rika can fight? Doesn't she always fail no matter how much she has tried to jump someone? What plan does Rika have this time? Take on Takano's role and have everyone turn against each other?
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Old 2007-08-01, 19:32   Link #211
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Originally Posted by sezen_atacan View Post
So Rika can fight? Doesn't she always fail no matter how much she has tried to jump someone?
Well the only people she's ever fought have had loads of adrenaline pumping through their veins and are hypervigilant. But apart from that you know she helps Satoko set traps.

Last edited by Davidj; 2007-08-02 at 01:21.
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Old 2007-08-01, 23:22   Link #212
Rias
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Originally Posted by Level E View Post
To add to what Rias said:

Spoiler for Yes, this is a major spoiler summary:
Actually...not quite.
Spoiler for saikoroshi-hen character settings:
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:27   Link #213
kgptzac
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Originally Posted by SeventhHS View Post
Imagine, like Rika, that you spent a countless number of years trying to save the lives of yourself and friends... suffering in silence, as you put up a facade that isn't you in order to keep everyone happy. Finally, you accomplish your goal. But then, the past changes, and none of that ever happened; your friends no longer needed saving; all your effort was for naught. Moreover, you're just an ordinary person again. No one would possibly believe what you went through. If you want to interact with those you love, you'll have to put up that facade again.

Wouldn't you be a little bummed?
I'm wondering how "feeling bummed" would actually cause the loli go on a killing spree, and I doubt how it is even done as Rika doesn't look like somebody physiclaly capable of killing "everyone"
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Old 2007-08-03, 19:00   Link #214
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Spoiler for Re: Rias:
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オヤシロさまドットコム テレビアニメ「ひぐらしのなく頃に解」公式サイト

Last edited by Level E; 2007-08-03 at 20:06.
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Old 2007-08-06, 02:24   Link #215
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Question about the way things play out.

Spoiler:


I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.
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Old 2007-08-06, 09:32   Link #216
Davidj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streetor View Post
Question about the way things play out.

Spoiler:


I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.
It's not that she absolutely has to be killed in a certain way. But if she's killed before that time by someone other than the plumbers, the police will come in, denying the plumbers the chance to take control of the situation. The method of death is simply intended to point the finger of suspicion at Hinamazawa natives.
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Old 2007-08-06, 15:11   Link #217
Rias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streetor View Post
Question about the way things play out.

Spoiler:


I've read the TIPS and everything so feel free to give me a full answer.
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Rias; 2007-08-06 at 15:25.
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Old 2007-08-07, 21:10   Link #218
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Question of my own, insipired by the epsiode 5 thread.

What does Rika mean when she said "everyone will die" in epsiode 4?

Spoiler for minagoroshi-hen:
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Old 2007-08-07, 21:14   Link #219
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Um.. I know it would sound funny but.... does the Hinamizawa neuro-disease exist in real life under a different name?? The TIPs section that talks about all the symptoms, delusions, and stuff just coincedently seems to be talked about in regular media and real medical reports too.....

I have no experience in the field of medicine but I don't know such psychosis virus actually exists that causes even the most sane to go insane with only a small push. I guess a vague example would be this one here I guess? => link below

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/of...hlight=haunted
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Old 2007-08-07, 21:56   Link #220
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Originally Posted by sezen_atacan View Post
Um.. I know it would sound funny but.... does the Hinamizawa neuro-disease exist in real life under a different name?? The TIPs section that talks about all the symptoms, delusions, and stuff just coincedently seems to be talked about in regular media and real medical reports too.....
I highly doubt it, but just for kicks I browsed Wikipedia a bit and found these described as symptoms of general paresis, a complication of syphilis:

Quote:
It had been considered a psychiatric disorder before and during the nineteenth century, when it was first scientifically identified and discovered to be extremely common, because the patient usually first sought—or was brought for—treatment because of psychotic symptoms of sudden and often dramatic onset.
Ooh.

Quote:
The diagnosis could be differentiated from other known psychoses by a characteristic abnormality in eye pupil reflexes (Argyll Robertson pupil)
Oh, hey!

Quote:
and, eventually, the development of muscular reflex abnormalities, seizures
That's Season 1 animation for you.

Quote:
memory impairment (dementia) and other signs of relatively pervasive neurocerebral deterioration.
Might be responsible for Keiichi's stupidity in the question arcs.

Psychosis has also been associated with AIDS, influenza, leprosy, lupus, Lyme disease, malaria, mumps, and various autoimmune disorders. Syphilis is probably the most notorious of its infectious causes, though.
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