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Old 2008-04-23, 14:32   Link #501
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon-kun View Post
2. They weren't under the orders of Irie. Not really.O_o Takano had bribed them into being her henchman, which is how she was allowed to kill Tomitake. They did lots of things for her that Irie knew nothing about.
You mistook what I said.
Obviously, the Yamainu was under the direct orders of Takano. However, Irie wasn'ta ware of that and pretty much thought they were working well and closely for the institute. Hence, they followed his orders as well, as long as it isn't hindering Takano's plan. (hence why i said "still")

Episode 4 of the first season demonstrates that the Yamainu was dispatched by Irie himself to seize Keiichi before he is left wild in the nature, going on rampage.
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Old 2008-04-23, 14:42   Link #502
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Then, why did you say my explanation was wrong? Takano could very well have told them to attempt to run over Keiichi to increase his paranoia. We already know she played around with it before, when she gave Rena and Shion those scrapbooks and told them all that stuff.
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Old 2008-04-23, 15:01   Link #503
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This is because Takano does not know which "kid" is going to go insane whatsoever. Indeed, she play the biggest part of RULE X, however she isn't omnipotent, and she was out of stage quickly (she doesn't play anymore mind toying after her "death" as the Yamainu is more busy with the preparations of the Disaster plan)

Also, It is pretty much shown that Irie was monitoring and worrying for Keiichi from quite a time, with that shot for a "flu" (which shouldn't be) and the fact that Rena and Mion probably contacted him more than once.

Considering what happened in the game, it is safe to assume they didn't do it on purpose.
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Old 2008-04-23, 15:20   Link #504
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Also in the game the Van honked for Keiichi to get out of the way
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Old 2008-04-23, 16:31   Link #505
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Well, I never said they were actually trying to hit him, just to scare him up. Takano is pretty twisted, so there's no way to know for certain if it was or was not her doing.
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Old 2008-04-23, 20:11   Link #506
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
All the characters that go L5 have reasons that make them do so. People with Hinamizawa syndrome won't normally progress beyond L1; there needs to be something that drives them to it. For Shion it's her bitterness at losing her position as heir to the Sonozaki house as well as the boy she loved. For Rena it was her parents' messy divorce that she blamed herself for, as as the incident at her old school. For Satoko it was the fact that she believed that her parents didn't like her and saw her as a burden, which made her think that they were planning to kill her. For Keiichi its the suspicion that his friends are hiding things from him and that they might be involved with the Watanangashi murders.

Mion quite simply doesn't have something driving her towards L5 like all the other characters do.


Are you suggesting that she's being treated for it? As Meakashi-hen showed us, the Sonozakis don't even know of the existence of the Irie Institution or of Hinamizawa Syndrome. They are completely unaware of the fact that it was the Yamainu who kidnapped the minister's grandson. The only person from Hinamizawa that knows about them is Rika.
<this really should've been in the discussion thread>
Perhaps I should've rephased my question. I know very well what the requirments is, and how the other people got to L5. The question is, I wonder why while everyone else in the club had a chance to go L5 (except Rika for obvious reasons), Mion was never given the chance to do so. We see that when she was confined underground by Shion, she was heading towards the worst, but just didn't get to L5 yet.

As to there's no link between Yamainu and Sonozaki family...it's shown in Himatsubushi-hen that Yamainu wanted to know what the main family was aiming for during the kidnapping incident. Seeing the influences that the Sonozaki family has around the area, it's not suprising if they have established contact. It's also not something you would talk about with other people so the meeting of the three family can also be a show pu up by Mion/Oryou.

There's also suggestions that "successor mode" Mion is indeed a manifestaion of the syndrome. As shown, she has ordered her men to proceed with Shion's punishment, and also suggested to Oryou that Akasaka be elimated.

In the end it's probably due to her personality that she hasn't been L5...
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Old 2008-04-23, 20:14   Link #507
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Just as there's no suggestions that Takano ordered Yamainu to scare Keiichi, there's also no evidence to go against it. However, seeing how she keeps a low profile after her death, and just enjoys the fact that people were driven crazy by her as a by product (where she doesn't do any more than that), it's likely that she didn't have anything to do with it.
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Old 2008-04-23, 20:17   Link #508
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
There's also suggestions that "successor mode" Mion is indeed a manifestaion of the syndrome. As shown, she has ordered her men to proceed with Shion's punishment, and also suggested to Oryou that Akasaka be elimated.

In the end it's probably due to her personality that she hasn't been L5...
There also the "Kei-chan protector mode" in Watanagashi-hen
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Old 2008-04-23, 20:24   Link #509
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There also the "Kei-chan protector mode" in Watanagashi-hen
Hmm, added to the fact that she knows the true nature of Rule Z, I guess it's not that suprising that she doesn't go L5...
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Old 2008-04-23, 20:31   Link #510
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Hmm, added to the fact that she knows the true nature of Rule Z, I guess it's not that suprising that she doesn't go L5...
Didn't she almost kill/choke Oryou when she confronted her about Satoshi when he first went missing?
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Old 2008-04-23, 22:00   Link #511
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Just as there's no suggestions that Takano ordered Yamainu to scare Keiichi, there's also no evidence to go against it. However, seeing how she keeps a low profile after her death, and just enjoys the fact that people were driven crazy by her as a by product (where she doesn't do any more than that), it's likely that she didn't have anything to do with it.
But we don't actually know that she's keeping a low profile. In fact, during the last arc, we see her being quite active, but just staying out of sight. I can't really see her just sitting around when she could make things so much worse. She needed Keiichi to believe he was actually in danger.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2008-04-24 at 11:47. Reason: quote added
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Old 2008-04-24, 00:21   Link #512
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While a guinae pig going on rampage might help her, she doesn't need that fact to be done.
Tatarigoroshi is the best example: the madness wasn't exposed in public and such, and it was unfortunately focalised on the club members, especially Keiichi and Satoko, in a very ironic way (as the flipping paranoia was "Mion and Rena" fault here, not Takano's).

The other proof that she doesn't make them crazy "on the purpose to generate more chaos" is that she would make sure that the target doesn't go crazy and kill Rika before her. And that happened twice "at least" (as there is an infinitisimal amount of worlds). If she has control and such, Shion would be never able to kill Rika.

As shown in every arc, Takano and the Yamainu don't act at all until it is their turn to "shine" after her and Tomitake's death. In Minagoroshi, the only thing she does is that she stalks around Rika, and it was pretty much blatant that she didn't try to brainwash a kid of the club (and she has no way to know about their "reminiscence").
In matsuribayashi, everything goes very wrong as soon as Rike and her friends prepare their countermeasure with Irie etc.

Otherwise, much like what Lambda said in Umineko, Takano just sits back in her throne and throw everything she got for sure win afterwards.

In other words, Takano does that as a "hobby" and sadistic/guilty pleasure, as she knows what will happen if she does that. The very thought of someone going crazy because of the pathogen just relieves her and "more".
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Old 2008-04-24, 01:08   Link #513
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Exactly why she'd do it-for fun. Sitting around and not going out because you're supposed to be dead must be boring, so why wouldn't she want to have some fun. While a lot of people snap without her influence, Rena and Shion are both knowingly influenced by her. You could argue that Keiichi is as well in the Satoko-centric arc. Sure, he "snaps" and kills Teppei without any real influence from her-though, I don't really blame that much on the syndrome, since I think even normal people wanted to kill him,- but afterwards, he meets Takano, who helps add to his madness. She's supposed to be dead and keeping a low-profile, but she meets with him, asks about the body, and antagonizes him, then she has her people move the body, which makes things even worse for him.
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Old 2008-04-24, 04:05   Link #514
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
<this really should've been in the discussion thread>
Perhaps I should've rephased my question. I know very well what the requirments is, and how the other people got to L5. The question is, I wonder why while everyone else in the club had a chance to go L5 (except Rika for obvious reasons), Mion was never given the chance to do so. We see that when she was confined underground by Shion, she was heading towards the worst, but just didn't get to L5 yet.
So the question is why Ryukishi07 includes a character that doesn't go L5 in the club. I suppose its in order to provide a contrast to the insanity of Shion. Besides, there were already two arcs in which one of the twins goes insane; Keiichi does so in two and Rena in one, so including third one would have probably been excessive. And since Mion was written as being stable, I suppose that Ryukishi07 has no reason to change things at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
As to there's no link between Yamainu and Sonozaki family...it's shown in Himatsubushi-hen that Yamainu wanted to know what the main family was aiming for during the kidnapping incident. Seeing the influences that the Sonozaki family has around the area, it's not suprising if they have established contact. It's also not something you would talk about with other people so the meeting of the three family can also be a show pu up by Mion/Oryou.
In Tsumihoboroshi-hen Mion tells Keiichi that the Sonozakis had no idea who was responsible for the kidnapping and that they had nothing to do with it. If they gave instructions to the Yamainu, then she wouldn't have been able to claim that they were uninvolved. Considering how honestly she's talking in that scene, I don't think that she's lying.

I don't remember that bit with the Yamainu; when was it exactly? In any case, it's in the interest of the Yamainu to make it seem that the Sonozakis kidnapped the grandson, since otherwise people might start investigating them, which would lead to problems since some members of Tokyo would have no doubt seen this as them overstepping their bounds. They could have covertly learned what the Sonozakis wanted and acted that way without the latter knowing anything so as to reinforce the illusion that the Sonozakis were behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
There's also suggestions that "successor mode" Mion is indeed a manifestaion of the syndrome. As shown, she has ordered her men to proceed with Shion's punishment, and also suggested to Oryou that Akasaka be elimated.

In the end it's probably due to her personality that she hasn't been L5...
Oryou acts in exactly the same way when she's dealing with outsiders. She can be very kind when she's with Mion or Rika (and also secretly wants the persecution of the Houjous to stop), however she has to present herself as cruel and merciless to the rest of the world in order to keep her subordinates loyal and her enemies too afraid to slight her. Since Mion is the successor, it makes sense for her to act in the same way since she'll have to replace Oryou one day and will need to present the same image of a merciless ruler to maintain control. She acts that way because she has to and the fact she immediately rips out her own fingernails after Shion's shows how much she regrets being forced to do that. I don't think that the syndrome has anything to do with her behavior.
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Old 2008-04-24, 05:24   Link #515
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Exactly why she'd do it-for fun. Sitting around and not going out because you're supposed to be dead must be boring, so why wouldn't she want to have some fun. While a lot of people snap without her influence, Rena and Shion are both knowingly influenced by her. You could argue that Keiichi is as well in the Satoko-centric arc. Sure, he "snaps" and kills Teppei without any real influence from her-though, I don't really blame that much on the syndrome, since I think even normal people wanted to kill him,- but afterwards, he meets Takano, who helps add to his madness. She's supposed to be dead and keeping a low-profile, but she meets with him, asks about the body, and antagonizes him, then she has her people move the body, which makes things even worse for him.
No.
In Tatarigoroshi, the club members move the body, and hint so to Keiichi, which freaks him out because he doesn't get it.
Takano meets Keiichi by accident, and freaks him out because she's suppposed to be dead at the time: if she'd just drove by, he could say, oh she couldn't be dead I saw her driving, which would screw up her plan. So yes, here she does it on purpose, but for a reason.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2008-04-24 at 11:47. Reason: quote added
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Old 2008-04-24, 11:42   Link #516
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No.
In Tatarigoroshi, the club members move the body, and hint so to Keiichi, which freaks him out because he doesn't get it.
Takano meets Keiichi by accident, and freaks him out because she's suppposed to be dead at the time: if she'd just drove by, he could say, oh she couldn't be dead I saw her driving, which would screw up her plan. So yes, here she does it on purpose, but for a reason.
She was supposed to be already dead for 24 hours according to the autopsy, so Keiichi seeing her alive at that point wouldn't have mattered since she ought to have been dead from way before the festival. What could have caused a problem is if Keiichi mentioned to the police that he saw her driving with a full trunk and Tomitake's bicycle in the back seat. Takano however doesn't worry about that happening and lets him know these things since she knows that Keiichi would be incriminating himself for Teppei's murder if he told the police about their encounter.
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Old 2008-04-24, 12:04   Link #517
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I don't know about the club members moving the body, because it's always been said that Takano was responsible.O_o

Point is, Takano was supposed to be dead. Even if Keiichi couldn't go to the police, why let him see her? Why talk about the body, why be rude and condescending to him, why let him notice Tomitake's bike in her car, and why let him see her after her supposed "death"? She could have just left him, but it looks like she decided to have some fun.


On an unrelated note, whatever happened to the little girl Keiichi shot and Takano's friends from the orphanage?O_o
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Old 2008-04-24, 12:11   Link #518
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I don't know about the club members moving the body, because it's always been said that Takano was responsible.O_o
Where does it say that?

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Originally Posted by Kanon-kun View Post
On an unrelated note, whatever happened to the little girl Keiichi shot and Takano's friends from the orphanage?O_o
They went to Canada

meaning the author completely forgot about them
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Old 2008-04-24, 14:11   Link #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon-kun View Post
I don't know about the club members moving the body, because it's always been said that Takano was responsible.O_o
It was never said like that. ever.

Mion knew that Keiichi wanted Teppei dead, and Shion knew as well, as Keiichi mimicked Satoshi. As result, the Sonozaki took care of the body, much like what they did in Tsumihoroboshi for Rina's and Teppei's corpses.
In Tatarigoroshi, the Sonozaki took care of Teppei's corpse while the club members tried to cover keiichi. It is pretty much explicit that all the club members knew what Keiichi did (except of course Satoko), hence why they tried to make an alibi, while the evidence was taken care of. Unfortunately, Keiichi was way too paranoiac.
Quote:
Point is, Takano was supposed to be dead. Even if Keiichi couldn't go to the police, why let him see her? Why talk about the body, why be rude and condescending to him, why let him notice Tomitake's bike in her car, and why let him see her after her supposed "death"? She could have just left him, but it looks like she decided to have some fun.
Because no one would ever believe him. Also, Takano "threatened" him, as she figured what he did (probably because of Irie, who saw Keiichi quite angry against Teppei). Because of the threat and the fact Keiichi wasn't at the festival, if he happens to call the police, he will not only discarded for Takano, but he will be immediately arrested as he won't be able to explain himself about the shovel and such.

Actually, Takano was annoyed by his questions. Despite his fatigue, Keiichi noticed the bike nevertherless, despite it wouldn't be that evident that it was tommy's bike.
By nature, Takano just had some fun and toyed with a possible L5 person. Otherwise, she didn't need Keiichi for the chaos at all, it was rather a coincidence which was convenient for her. But in the end, she doesn't have ANY control of the "prey", otherwise, she wouldn't lose idiotically in Watanagashi and Meakashi, because of Shion's insanity.
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Old 2008-04-24, 17:35   Link #520
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I've never heard anything about the body being moved by anyone other than Takano, who was the one who mentioned it in the first place.

And I'm not saying she needed him. She doesn't need to do most of the things she does, but rather does it for her own amusement or to see what happens.
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