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Old 2008-08-17, 10:44   Link #681
Eryops
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Originally Posted by devilkiller7 View Post
sorry if this a bother but i read somewhere that takano was the actual creator of the irie clinic to research the syndrome in secret while helping patients to secure their level 5 status and that koizumi was her support with the tokyo organization. some people also said takanos goals were to prove the syndrome and conduct a bioweapon for the fun of it and tokyo was not having any intentions for any bioweapons. it was koizumi and tokyo that helped takano continue the research only for her grandfather so why would she want to take the time to make a bioweapon? since when did her grandfather say anything about using it as a bioweapon? wouldnt this waste her time as well? when koizumi died it turned out they knew takano was trying to make a bioweapon from her research when they told her to stop it as it would waste too much money, how do you explain this? wasnt takano originally working for the tokyo organization, and that this whole bioweapon thing was tokyos idea, so takano was just following along with it to also research for her grandpas theories?
Please try to use proper spelling and grammar and not to ramble so much.

Tokyo's old guard was interested in creating weapons that would bring some parity between Japan and the US. Just because Koizumi was sympathetic towards her doesn't mean that he could support Miyo without some justification for his actions. He could only secure the funding from the Alphabet Project by promising the creation of a useful and unique biological agent.

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Originally Posted by devilkiller7 View Post
it was said irie was killed for the same reason as tomitake for refusing her schemes, but was this the case? she didnt talk with irie. now i'm confused with iries death, he was said to have committed suicide with sleeping pills, but i thought okonogi had killed him. any explanations?
It's obvious that his "suicide" is just a cover story.
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Old 2008-08-17, 13:32   Link #682
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It is heavily hinted that Okonogi killed Irie, putting a huge narcotic dose in his tea. (and considering the Yamainu, they are obviously skilled enough to copy his handwriting, so hence the "suicide note").
Minagoroshi showed Irie with Okonogi, the former thinking takano is truely dead, while Okonogi mentions her as she is alive, and "keep going according to the plan", with Irie completely dumbfounded.

Basically, he was doomed the very moment he was alone with Okonogi.
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Old 2008-08-17, 17:16   Link #683
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Sorry if my question has been already answered, but i've read more than half of the thread and i don't see much posts about tatarigoroshi, whis is the arc that has left me most doubts.

let's see, I have two lines of thinking:

the first one, assuming that K1 actually killed teppei, that mion and rena were lying in classroom about being at the festival that night (trying to protect him by providing an alibi), that mion used the sonozaki house to hide the corpse (tsumihoroboshi), or even that they carried it to rena's treasure's mountain (and they were trying to tell him that evening inviting him there)... and, in a whole, that satoko was having hallucinations of his uncle and thus saying he was still home...
(alternatively, the keiichi who went tho the festival might have been shion in disguise? maybe hanyuu knows some henge no jutsu?)

the second one is assuming he actually was seeing delusions the night of the festival, and after that he went crazy running around, bruising his arms and legs and digging holes for nothing.... then the next morning rena, mion and satoko were saying the truth, and teppei was alive for one more day. Then that night, maybe both mion and rena killed him (and they were inviting K1, of course), hide the corpse... while poor satoko was left taking a looong bath at home

i think the former theory is stronger, because teppei appears to be missing when ooishi talks about the death of tomitake i the TIPS "The victim of the fifth year" (五年目の犠牲者)

in both cases, there's a BIG question at the end of the arc: what happens with satoko? the list of victims says "missing"
i somehow think the TIPS "note of grudges?" (恨み帳?) is about a grownup satoko living a sorrowful life far from hinamizawa, with the hinamizawa syndrome attacking her mind. but then again, that would mean the "dead guy" shouldn't be teppei? then she though something was posessing hi uncle, just like with keiichi?

to make long things short:
to which extent was actually satoko bullied, and how much of that bullying could be delusions?
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Old 2008-08-17, 17:38   Link #684
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Keiichi did murder Teppei. The first scenario is the correct one. Teppei goes missing on the night of the Watanagashi ritual, so the theory that he's left alive for another day and then killed by the Sonozakis cannot be correct.

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Originally Posted by kebukai View Post
in both cases, there's a BIG question at the end of the arc: what happens with satoko? the list of victims says "missing"
The people listed as missing are the ones who escaped being gassed and had to be shot or stabbed by the Yamainu. Since they couldn't leave any corpses with knife or bullet holes around these were destroyed, which is why they are classified as missing. Satoko was probably hunted down like in Yakusamashi-hen by the Yamainu and killed.

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Originally Posted by kebukai View Post
i somehow think the TIPS "note of grudges?" (恨み帳?) is about a grownup satoko living a sorrowful life far from hinamizawa, with the hinamizawa syndrome attacking her mind. but then again, that would mean the "dead guy" shouldn't be teppei? then she though something was posessing hi uncle, just like with keiichi?
That note speaks in the present tense. It couldn't have been written by an adult Satoko because it describes a situation that was still occurring. Besides, Satoko had reverted to L5 so she would have clawed her throat out in a matter of days even if she had somehow managed to escape the Yamainu.

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Originally Posted by kebukai View Post
to make long things short:
to which extent was actually satoko bullied, and how much of that bullying could be delusions?
Satoko was bullied by her aunt and uncle, however it's impossible to know how much of it real and how much of it was hallucinations.
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Old 2008-08-17, 18:02   Link #685
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
It is heavily hinted that Okonogi killed Irie, putting a huge narcotic dose in his tea. (and considering the Yamainu, they are obviously skilled enough to copy his handwriting, so hence the "suicide note").
Minagoroshi showed Irie with Okonogi, the former thinking takano is truely dead, while Okonogi mentions her as she is alive, and "keep going according to the plan", with Irie completely dumbfounded.

Basically, he was doomed the very moment he was alone with Okonogi.
they should have at least shown irie drinking something to give us better clues as to why he had been killed, i think strongly irie had already drank something before okonogi was on standby to write the suicide note after the drug in irie's drink had taken effect. i would not think okonogi tried stuffing sleeping pills in his throat when he was on standby because irie already found out okonogi was one of the enemies when he mentioned takano's message, in any case this would have lead to a obvious struggle.
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Old 2008-08-17, 18:26   Link #686
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
Please try to use proper spelling and grammar and not to ramble so much.

Tokyo's old guard was interested in creating weapons that would bring some parity between Japan and the US. Just because Koizumi was sympathetic towards her doesn't mean that he could support Miyo without some justification for his actions. He could only secure the funding from the Alphabet Project by promising the creation of a useful and unique biological agent.


It's obvious that his "suicide" is just a cover story.
I don't see any problems with my spelling except punctuation but thanks for reminding me.

So koizumi was forced into an agreement to help takano continue with her research, and since he died that agreement was no longer an option and takano was left with nobody to support her research, and money was a mess so bioweaponry along with her research were to cease immediately. Now i think i understand.

That makes sense, thanks for the help
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Old 2008-08-17, 22:15   Link #687
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Originally Posted by devilkiller7 View Post
I don't see any problems with my spelling except punctuation but thanks for reminding me.

So koizumi was forced into an agreement to help takano continue with her research, and since he died that agreement was no longer an option and takano was left with nobody to support her research, and money was a mess so bioweaponry along with her research were to cease immediately. Now i think i understand.

That makes sense, thanks for the help
Koizumi wasn't forced into an agreement to help Takano. He helps Takono Miyo because of his relationship with Hifumi and wanted Miyo to finish what Hifumi left behind: the research in the syndrome. Koizumi was an influencial person in Tokyo, was able to pull alot of strings together, and was the main reason why the institute was established and could continue on in the first place. Once Koizumi died, Takano lost her footing in Tokyo as they were unconvinced by her research. That is, Hinamizawa Syndrome sounded absurd and did not seem like it could be used in bio-warfare.
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Old 2008-08-17, 22:38   Link #688
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
(and considering the Yamainu, they are obviously skilled enough to copy his handwriting, so hence the "suicide note").
True enough, they did the same thing for Rika's mom the third year.


And about Satoko and her hallucination; She call the child protection twice and it said tha the second time she was faking . So the first time should be true ( a ex-stepfather) . It could mean than her hallucination could be ''Teppei'' or ''someone else''
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Old 2008-08-17, 23:20   Link #689
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Originally Posted by devilkiller7 View Post
they should have at least shown irie drinking something to give us better clues as to why he had been killed, i think strongly irie had already drank something before okonogi was on standby to write the suicide note after the drug in irie's drink had taken effect.
Irie is shown drinking tea given to him by Okonogi in Minagoroshi-hen. It is made pretty obvious what's going on.

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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Koizumi wasn't forced into an agreement to help Takano. He helps Takono Miyo because of his relationship with Hifumi and wanted Miyo to finish what Hifumi left behind: the research in the syndrome. Koizumi was an influencial person in Tokyo, was able to pull alot of strings together, and was the main reason why the institute was established and could continue on in the first place. Once Koizumi died, Takano lost her footing in Tokyo as they were unconvinced by her research. That is, Hinamizawa Syndrome sounded absurd and did not seem like it could be used in bio-warfare.
Agreed. And there was also the fact that the new guard replacing Koizumi's faction who hadn't lived through Japan's defeat by the US wasn't interested in developing new and extremely expensive weapons; especially ones banned by international treaties Japan had signed.

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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
True enough, they did the same thing for Rika's mom the third year.
Or perhaps Takano threatened to murder Rika in addition to Rika's mother and/or vivisect her without the use of anesthetic. In the case of Rika's mother once they had captured her its possible they could pressure her and/or torture her into writing a note. Of course we can't be sure what really happened.
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Old 2008-08-18, 00:21   Link #690
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Originally Posted by Rias View Post
Koizumi wasn't forced into an agreement to help Takano. He helps Takono Miyo because of his relationship with Hifumi and wanted Miyo to finish what Hifumi left behind: the research in the syndrome. Koizumi was an influencial person in Tokyo, was able to pull alot of strings together, and was the main reason why the institute was established and could continue on in the first place. Once Koizumi died, Takano lost her footing in Tokyo as they were unconvinced by her research. That is, Hinamizawa Syndrome sounded absurd and did not seem like it could be used in bio-warfare.
So you're saying that koizumi was the one giving tokyo the funds to begin their research for the biological weapon from the syndrome in order to support takano with her chance to finish off her research. That make sense as developing a bioweapon means you will need to do research about it(takano's life devotion) so basically she somehow got koizumi to involve her in the biological weapon project to finish her research, correct? she did graduate with the highest scores in studies with parasites so i suppose tokyo would also want to recruit her as a member to research the syndrome for them

Last edited by devilkiller7; 2008-08-18 at 01:58.
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Old 2008-08-18, 03:06   Link #691
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So you're saying that koizumi was the one giving tokyo the funds to begin their research for the biological weapon from the syndrome in order to support takano with her chance to finish off her research. That make sense as developing a bioweapon means you will need to do research about it(takano's life devotion) so basically she somehow got koizumi to involve her in the biological weapon project to finish her research, correct? she did graduate with the highest scores in studies with parasites so i suppose tokyo would also want to recruit her as a member to research the syndrome for them
No. Think of Tokyo as a secret society to which a lot of influential politicians belong to. Koizumi is one such individual who is part of Tokyo and who has a high position in it. They are able to subvert and channel government funds to projects that the society considers important. Since one of their interests was weapons development Koizumi was able to use his influence in Tokyo to have them fund one such project as a way of making up for not defending Hifumi earlier on in his career. The reason Koizumi supports Miyo is to redeem himself for not helping his friend back then.
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Old 2008-08-18, 04:01   Link #692
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No. Think of Tokyo as a secret society to which a lot of influential politicians belong to. Koizumi is one such individual who is part of Tokyo and who has a high position in it. They are able to subvert and channel government funds to projects that the society considers important. Since one of their interests was weapons development Koizumi was able to use his influence in Tokyo to have them fund one such project as a way of making up for not defending Hifumi earlier on in his career. The reason Koizumi supports Miyo is to redeem himself for not helping his friend back then.
ok let me try to putting this in my terms, you're saying koizumi was one of the most top persons of tokyo that can raise funds for any project tokyo thinks is worth conducting, and he did this because he wants to make up for not helping hifumi with his career. ok now my question is HOW exactly was he supporting takano by funding the biological weapon project that tokyo wants to conduct? i'm pretty sure i answered this question myself a whole lot of times but i cannot reach a straight forward answer. i just assumed that koizumi was the reason that gave takano her chance to continue her research, because without him the research just came to an abruptly end. koizumi must've told all tokyo members to give takano her wants to research the syndrome she desires as he promised them he would fund for their biological weapon wants.
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Old 2008-08-18, 04:19   Link #693
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ok let me try to putting this in my terms, you're saying koizumi was one of the most top persons of tokyo that can raise funds for any project tokyo thinks is worth conducting, and he did this because he wants to make up for not helping hifumi with his career. ok now my question is HOW exactly was he supporting takano by funding the biological weapon project that tokyo wants to conduct? i'm pretty sure i answered this question myself a whole lot of times but i cannot reach a straight forward answer. i just assumed that koizumi was the reason that gave takano her chance to continue her research, because without him the research just came to an abruptly end. koizumi must've told all tokyo members to give takano her wants to research the syndrome she desires as he promised them he would fund for their biological weapon wants.
Takano is given the funds to conduct the research that she hopes will prove her grandfather's theories because Tokyo wants a biological weapon being produced out of the project. They aren't a charity. It's a trade; Takano gets vast funds she can use to study the syndrome and in exchange develops a biological weapon for Tokyo.

This is like trying to draw blood from a stone.
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Old 2008-08-18, 07:27   Link #694
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
Takano is given the funds to conduct the research that she hopes will prove her grandfather's theories because Tokyo wants a biological weapon being produced out of the project. They aren't a charity. It's a trade; Takano gets vast funds she can use to study the syndrome and in exchange develops a biological weapon for Tokyo.

This is like trying to draw blood from a stone.
Ah so i was right afterall XD. After koizumi died he can no longer hold the agreement with the old tokyo members about bioloigical weapons as they were replaced, so they had to conclude the biological weapon project as the koizumi faction was replaced by people who has no intentions of doing this, in addition of wasting money. By "trade" do you mean koizumi negotiated with tokyo about the money thats given to takano about promising that takano will have the knowledge needed to conduct a bioweapon?

Last edited by devilkiller7; 2008-08-18 at 09:29.
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Old 2008-08-18, 12:30   Link #695
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Rehash...step by step. Perhaps not needed, but there seems to be some sort of communications block happening.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koizumi was the last of the "Old Gaurd" type politicials to die. He'd been through the Second World War and the occupation of Japan. In his day, Tokyo wanted something to regain what they lost against the United States. Something either to counter the Americans atom bomb, revenge, or at least a way to become an equal again, rather than a beaten people.

The "New Guard" are people born after the war and occupation. They have no heavy desire to get back at the United States thought military action. They kept with Koizumi's projects out of respect and tradition.

Koizumi failed to give support to his friend, Hifumi (Takano's grandfather), when he was younger. Thus when Takano comes of age and tries to resume her grandfather's research, Hifumi feels guilty and ashamed for not supporting his friend. In order to repay for his debt to Hifumi, he supports Takano as best that he can. A research institute.

However to secure funding for a weird search for a microbre, Koizumi has to provide a cover and a reason to give anything more than just a grant. Potential use as a bio-weapon gets that funding.

Koizumi dies.

The "New Guard" have no used for an illegal bio-weapons project. Takano tries to make them see her grandfather's research is correct. They admit the microbre exists since they have a partial cure for it. However the rest of her theories are laughed at (driving her into depression/madness). The research is cut to three years to cure the town of the microbres and that is final.

No proof for Hifumi's theories and thus to Takano, total failure.
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Old 2008-08-18, 16:41   Link #696
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Rika's blood isn't a cure to the syndrome. Rika's blood and cerebrospinal fluid are studied by Irie, but they have nothing more to do with the C series of drugs.

The syndrome emerged again quite simply because these men were in a stressful environment; battlefields tend to be like that. There's no need to assume a mystical connection there either. There's no evidence the syndrome is supernatural other than the fact it allows people to sense Hanyuu, but that can simply be explained by their senses becoming more sensitive. The fact Irie can develop treatments for it (and he estimates that he'll be able to also eventually develop a cure) indicates that it is a natural pathogen. It seems rather similar to a cross between toxoplasmosis and rabies (with the necessary modifications so that it can advance the plot).


If it's a natural pathogen then you can't have an origin story since it simply evolved in that environment. And Ryuoukishi07 left the details out for good reason. The syndrome is already extremely implausible as a disease; adding more details would only serve to make it seem even more like a plot device. I'd say that the existence of a disease that so closely follows the needs of the story, often contradicting the way diseases and parasites act in reality, is one of the weak points of Higurashi.

Sorry to not reply to this thread for a while, but I've mulled over these points that Eryops made and it is clear to me now that the Rika's samples are probably not connected to the vaccine other than as a facet of Takano's dead-end research from all the clues given. I have to write off the whole blood thing as now being an incorrect assumption that arose partly from confusing cause, effect, and seeming parallels in interpreting the local history and folklore, which ties in well thematically with the contemporary events. I am satsified now that the supernatural (Hanyuu and so forth) and the natural (the Hinamizawa syndrome pathogen) are fully compartmentalized and are for the most part non-overlapping--as they should be.

Yes the minute details and origins of the pathogen are mysterious, but not a whole lot more so than, say, Ebola or AIDS are in the real world, so I can accept that it is simply a natural (albeit a bit contrived, as noted) evolved pathogen and thus isolates the supernatural part of the story merely to Hanyuu's existence and ability to manipulate time. This works best for me as it keeps the supernatural aspect a single conceit that doesn't otherwise interfere with the natural events that comprise the mystery itself once it has been identified and isolated.

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Old 2008-08-18, 17:50   Link #697
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Yes the minute details and origins of the pathogen are mysterious, but not a whole lot more so than, say, Ebola or AIDS are in the real world, so I can accept that it is simply a natural (albeit a bit contrived, as noted) evolved pathogen and thus isolates the supernatural part of the story merely to Hanyuu's existence and ability to manipulate time.
I think the most implausible parts of the pathogen are its distribution and (lack of) resilience. The syndrome is extremely contagious, as a short stay in Hinamizawa is enough to for someone to become a carrier (as evidenced by Tomitake). However despite that fact it is only located in Hinamizawa. Presumably the organism is transmitted aerially (perhaps Onigafuchi swamp is the source since it gets filled in with cement after the disaster). Interpersonal transmission cannot be taking place since carriers would be able to easily spread it to others when they left Hinamizawa and it wouldn't be contained there. However in order for a microbe, whether a virus, bacterium or protist, to be able to survive in the air it has to be very robust as it has to endure both dessication and UV radiation exposure. As a result the fact it's so sensitive that it cannot survive outside of Hinamizawa doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the fact that it completely degrades almost immediately after its host dies doesn't make sense either. An organism this sensitive shouldn't be able to survive, much less act as a pathogen.

Of course the disease being localized and extremely hard to detect is necessary for the plot of the story, however Hinamizawa syndrome makes no sense from a biological perspective.
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Old 2008-08-18, 23:45   Link #698
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Rehash...step by step. Perhaps not needed, but there seems to be some sort of communications block happening.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koizumi was the last of the "Old Gaurd" type politicials to die. He'd been through the Second World War and the occupation of Japan. In his day, Tokyo wanted something to regain what they lost against the United States. Something either to counter the Americans atom bomb, revenge, or at least a way to become an equal again, rather than a beaten people.

The "New Guard" are people born after the war and occupation. They have no heavy desire to get back at the United States thought military action. They kept with Koizumi's projects out of respect and tradition.

Koizumi failed to give support to his friend, Hifumi (Takano's grandfather), when he was younger. Thus when Takano comes of age and tries to resume her grandfather's research, Hifumi feels guilty and ashamed for not supporting his friend. In order to repay for his debt to Hifumi, he supports Takano as best that he can. A research institute.

However to secure funding for a weird search for a microbre, Koizumi has to provide a cover and a reason to give anything more than just a grant. Potential use as a bio-weapon gets that funding.

Koizumi dies.

The "New Guard" have no used for an illegal bio-weapons project. Takano tries to make them see her grandfather's research is correct. They admit the microbre exists since they have a partial cure for it. However the rest of her theories are laughed at (driving her into depression/madness). The research is cut to three years to cure the town of the microbres and that is final.

No proof for Hifumi's theories and thus to Takano, total failure.
Ok this will be the final summary

Koizumi in order to support takano's research must provide an eligible reason to do such research, and that reason is to fund for tokyo's biological weaponry. Since koizumi is the last of the "old" tokyo members, he used their wants of a biological weapon as a reason to help support takano's research. BUT the irie clinic is also there to serve as a disguise to cure the syndrome, is it because a cure will not be any relation to the research itself to prove her grandpa's theories therefore koizumi had to use the bioweapon as the reason as it needs research on it? Why can't he use the "curing the syndrome" reason as it also does needs research of the syndrome to establish a cure? The bioweapon scheme is more unsafe than the cure reason.

The research will still continue as long as koizumi is around preventing the "new" tokyo members from protesting against him as he is still their superior.

Therefore since koizumi died, the "new" tokyo members were able to take control of his matter of biological weapons and put an end to it as they the "new" tokyo members have no intention of conducting such research bioweapons. Thus they concluded the syndrome was absurd at the fact they control human thoughts and mind, and a cure was already in experimental stages of completion conducted by irie who was always looking for a cure and not a bioweapon as the old tokyo had intended. As the cure is nearly complete and the syndrome will soon be extinguished and can never be proven its effect therefore failure in proving her grandpa's theory.

Then along came nomura who wants to help takano for her purpose of causing tokyo to lose political power with their responsible for emergency plan 34 and gains their power to have the research to themselves.

Last edited by devilkiller7; 2008-08-19 at 00:31.
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Old 2008-08-19, 14:59   Link #699
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
I think the most implausible parts of the pathogen are its distribution and (lack of) resilience. The syndrome is extremely contagious, as a short stay in Hinamizawa is enough to for someone to become a carrier (as evidenced by Tomitake). However despite that fact it is only located in Hinamizawa. Presumably the organism is transmitted aerially (perhaps Onigafuchi swamp is the source since it gets filled in with cement after the disaster). Interpersonal transmission cannot be taking place since carriers would be able to easily spread it to others when they left Hinamizawa and it wouldn't be contained there. However in order for a microbe, whether a virus, bacterium or protist, to be able to survive in the air it has to be very robust as it has to endure both dessication and UV radiation exposure. As a result the fact it's so sensitive that it cannot survive outside of Hinamizawa doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the fact that it completely degrades almost immediately after its host dies doesn't make sense either. An organism this sensitive shouldn't be able to survive, much less act as a pathogen.

Of course the disease being localized and extremely hard to detect is necessary for the plot of the story, however Hinamizawa syndrome makes no sense from a biological perspective.
Hm, wasn't Tomitake given the pathogen as an injection?

I am not a biologist, but the degradation indeed sounds more to serve the plot than based in reality.

Now attributing it to the Onigafuchi swamp is interesting in relation to the story of Hanyuu and Ouka, to dip back toward the semi-supernatural. The story suggests that her body had become contaminated by absorbing what sounds a lot like the syndrome from the villagers and then her body was disemboweled and dumped in the swamp. This was one thing I was reading into that part of the story before at least.

One other, weirder thought just hit me. What if Hanyuu actually had the syndrome, hence she went paranoid about what the villagers wanted to do to her and this is why she directed Ouka to kill her? This makes a certain amount more sense than here "absorbing" from the villagers, at least, if what is being described is even the syndrome at all (and not just a normal story of an outcast facing a lynch mob, as I'd originally assume).

Going back to Takano-obfuscates-everything mode, I figured the paving over of the swamp was primarily a red herring either left by the government to give the public the sense that the matter had been dealt with, and thus left as a plot device to confuse the reader/viewer into buying more into Takano's "theories", plus perhaps a number of bodies and evidence was disposed of there. But if there is some connection between the pathogen and the swamp, then I'm inclined to believe that there could still remain some natural or supernatural connection to the Hannyu/Ouka story that hasn't been puzzled out yet.
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Old 2008-08-19, 15:10   Link #700
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The Comet is Coming
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
Could a pathogen survive in the swamp and only live in an airborne state at night or twilight? Thus adding in the figurative sound of the higurashi. If it's tolerances for being airborne are so small, it might only be able to infect people over a given range before daybreak (or the cold of night). It may also only be the narrow band of hot night in summer that allow such a thing to spread and still not have much resilience. Also such a limiting factor would hinder its range considerably. I don't know if such a thing is biologically possible, but it is the best lead so far that doesn't dip into the supernatural.

In the end, the mixed natural-supernatual explaination may be the only possible answer left.
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