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Old 2008-09-27, 08:10   Link #861
Klashikari
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Tohoho... once again Q&A mixed too much things for the own good of the thread. Remember folks: use the spoiler thread for stuff about bern-chan and her merry witches comrades, instead of higu Q&A which is dedicated to answers higu related questions with facts etc (and no spoiler fest etc).

as about Lambdadelta:
since we don't know what happened between them after the game for higurashi, we don't exactly know what are lambda's "feelings"... I don't buy exactly the complete "tsundere" appelation as her dere doesn't exactly seem as the usual one (even if she says she won't forgive battler/the reader if they make Bern cry).

Also, remember that Lambda took it as a game, while Bern, despite pretending acting like a though witch, was utterly stuck by the tragedies, so I don't think Lambda realized the damage she could deal to bern (despite we, readers of both higu and umi, saw how the cycles of fate twisted Rika into Frederica Bernkastel).
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Old 2008-09-27, 08:18   Link #862
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well ... My apologies for not using the spoilers tag ... Back on topic i feel 34 is hiding something
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Old 2008-09-27, 09:24   Link #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Spoiler for :
Spoiler for nice:


@SealedTime: eh? I don't see what 34's hiding?
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Old 2008-09-27, 09:28   Link #864
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well its just a feeling
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:24   Link #865
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
What? No she doesn't.


Rika says that Bernkastel might still exist in the end of Saikoroshi-hen in a higher dimension, so I think that's the point that Rika and Bernkastel diverge.


What? You just said in the previous sentence that Frederica Bernkastel and Bernkastel are the same person.
No I said that I thought that Frederica Bernkastel and Bernkastel are the same persons. But I still don't think that since Bernkastel is a witch that have lived for a thousand years and have no connection with Higurashi, but Frederica Bernkastel watched Rika's struggle. And I don't remember wich chapter though, but I know that Rika somewhere meets Frederica Bernkastel. And if Bernkastel then exists in a higher dimension, that means that Rika and Bernkastel can't possibly be the same persons.
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:26   Link #866
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Originally Posted by SealedTime View Post
they are the same person ... Remember what bern said during umineko? She said she used to say mii... Nippah... Now theres only one person who would say that

Yes, I know that's Rika catch phrases. But Frederica Bernkastel has watched Rika's struggle and perhaps then catched some of her phrases. And then if Frederica and Bernkastel are the same persons it's not so weird that Bernkastel says Mii and Nipah!
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Old 2008-09-27, 10:28   Link #867
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Oops >.< Sorry for not putting in spoilers

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Old 2008-09-27, 10:33   Link #868
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Originally Posted by Beruko08 View Post
wah, it does make sense to say that 34 didn't really understand how much damage she dealt to Bern.
"Ends justify the means". Even if you have sympathy and such, even if you got the same experience, it doesn't exactly tell you how much the person feel and such.

Considering how Lambda is "easy" going with bern and how she uses all the stuff as a game, it would be difficult to imagine lambda being cautious about the hell bern went through.

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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
And if Bernkastel then exists in a higher dimension, that means that Rika and Bernkastel can't possibly be the same persons.
That would actually depend if the entities didn't diverge after a certain point.
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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
Oops >.< Sorry for not putting in spoiler
My warning before was to remind you all to use the spoiler thread, instead of the Q&A thread.
In the spoiler discussion thread, there is absolutely no need for spoiler tags.
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Old 2008-09-27, 14:53   Link #869
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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
No I said that I thought that Frederica Bernkastel and Bernkastel are the same persons. But I still don't think that since Bernkastel is a witch that have lived for a thousand years and have no connection with Higurashi, but Frederica Bernkastel watched Rika's struggle. And I don't remember wich chapter though, but I know that Rika somewhere meets Frederica Bernkastel.
Are you thinking of the start of the Minagoroshi-hen manga? Because Rika is depicted meeting Bernkastel there. However that isn't canonical since in the visual novel Rika/Frederika is by herself in that scene.

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Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
And if Bernkastel then exists in a higher dimension, that means that Rika and Bernkastel can't possibly be the same persons.
One explanation for that is that Bernkastel/Rika could move in and out of that higher dimension until the they diverge at the end of Saikoroshi-hen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Witch Drugs View Post
Yes, I know that's Rika catch phrases. But Frederica Bernkastel has watched Rika's struggle and perhaps then catched some of her phrases. And then if Frederica and Bernkastel are the same persons it's not so weird that Bernkastel says Mii and Nipah!
"Formerly, when I had a human body, I took a hundred years to notice just this much."

Bernkastel used to be human.

"Now, you are just like me when I was trapped in the world of Lamda-Delta previously. You are imprisoned in a labyrinth of a cruel fate and are being tormented by the Witch. ... I am a Witch that was born thence."

Bernkastel says she was the one trapped in the labyrinth of cruel fate.

"If, by any chance, you're still hugging your knees, hurry and raise your head.
...... Eerh, in these times, I wonder what I used to say.
......... Eeerh, I mean, ......... Fa,... Fight, Oh~.
Mii, Nipah~☆"


Rika was the one that used to say fight-oh in order to encourage other characters to try harder (e.g. Irie to treat Satoko or Keiichi when he was being tormented by Shion). If Bernkastel existed solely in the higher dimension and only interacted with Akasaka, then she never appears to use it in such a way.

Based on all these quotes, the most obvious explanation in my opinion is that she used to be Rika.
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Old 2008-09-27, 18:53   Link #870
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yeah with that much evidence i think fredrika bernkastel and bernkastel are the same person
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Old 2008-09-28, 00:41   Link #871
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That much only tells us that they used to be the same person at some point, not that they are still the same person at present.
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Old 2008-09-28, 04:40   Link #872
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
Are you thinking of the start of the Minagoroshi-hen manga? Because Rika is depicted meeting Bernkastel there. However that isn't canonical since in the visual novel Rika/Frederika is by herself in that scene.
Every Manga of Higurashi has Ryuukishi's supervision. By that, I think he at least check the storyboards before things get the final art, that is, in the worse case scenario. In the best case, he himself writes the scripts and the mangaka just the art.

It's not like the mangakas are completely free to do whatever they want. If that was so wrong he'd most probably have said: 'Dude, this is wrong, do it again.'

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That much only tells us that they used to be the same person at some point, not that they are still the same person at present.
Or she is just talking about her human counterpart.
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Old 2008-09-28, 05:16   Link #873
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
That much only tells us that they used to be the same person at some point, not that they are still the same person at present.
Define "present".

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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Or she is just talking about her human counterpart.
Why would she refer to her human counterpart as if it had been her though?
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Old 2008-09-28, 05:41   Link #874
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
Define "present".


Why would she refer to her human counterpart as if it had been her though?
Why not?

...........

They are like a team
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Old 2008-09-28, 06:02   Link #875
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Why not?

...........

They are like a team
Just a clarification; you think that Bernkastel and Rika have always been separate entities, correct?
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Old 2008-09-28, 06:52   Link #876
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Just a clarification; you think that Bernkastel and Rika have always been separate entities, correct?
Well,
Ever since Bern came to be
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Old 2008-09-28, 10:30   Link #877
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Define "present".
Your current state in a space time continuum. Past is your relative traversed trajectory in this stream, and future is your planned destination.
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Old 2008-09-28, 13:53   Link #878
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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Well,
Ever since Bern came to be
So do you think Bern emerged from Rika but as independent entity? If so, do you have a specific point where you think this divergence took place?

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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Your current state in a space time continuum. Past is your relative traversed trajectory in this stream, and future is your planned destination.
Cute. What I was asking was what point in the story you define as "present".

I agree that the Rika and Bernkastel diverged, however I think that this happened at the end of Saikoroshi-hen, since that's when Rika decided to die a normal death and stop sending her memories to other worlds. I think that this decision marks a good point for them to become independent since Rika's memories/consciousness will no longer be sent to that higher dimension before going to other worlds.
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Old 2008-09-28, 15:02   Link #879
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Cute. What I was asking was what point in the story you define as "present".
The wrong questions will get you the wrong answers I think there is not enough information as to establish their divergence point with accuracy, only to establish that by the point of Minagoroshi-hen we can already talk about two entities, and by the Umineko timeline they are already independent.
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Old 2008-09-28, 15:18   Link #880
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Originally Posted by Eryops View Post
Are you thinking of the start of the Minagoroshi-hen manga? Because Rika is depicted meeting Bernkastel there. However that isn't canonical since in the visual novel Rika/Frederika is by herself in that scene.
Hmm.. I don't remember wich chapter it was... But I remeber that the scene goes something like this:
Rika: Who are you?
???: I am Frederica Bernkastel
Rika: Frederica Bernkastel? But she looks so much like me.
Frederica: Kuhuhu...


Quote:
"Formerly, when I had a human body, I took a hundred years to notice just this much."

Bernkastel used to be human.

"Now, you are just like me when I was trapped in the world of Lamda-Delta previously. You are imprisoned in a labyrinth of a cruel fate and are being tormented by the Witch. ... I am a Witch that was born thence."

Bernkastel says she was the one trapped in the labyrinth of cruel fate.

"If, by any chance, you're still hugging your knees, hurry and raise your head.
...... Eerh, in these times, I wonder what I used to say.
......... Eeerh, I mean, ......... Fa,... Fight, Oh~.
Mii, Nipah~☆"


Rika was the one that used to say fight-oh in order to encourage other characters to try harder (e.g. Irie to treat Satoko or Keiichi when he was being tormented by Shion). If Bernkastel existed solely in the higher dimension and only interacted with Akasaka, then she never appears to use it in such a way.

Based on all these quotes, the most obvious explanation in my opinion is that she used to be Rika.
Hm... Your probably right... I didn't see that Bernkastel said the thing about human body (I'm not that good at japanese, and I played the game on japanese)
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