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Old 2006-11-02, 08:59   Link #81
tehtf
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And is it possible that Takano's "madness" is also driven by the Hinamizawa Syndrome?

Keichii, an outsider, only moved to the village one month ago and he is already an infected carrier of the syndrome. Thus for Takano and Ire who work and stay there for years, they probably also are infected by the paranoid as well. If that's the case, it may explain well why Takano wanted "to destroy all of hinamizawa" after hearing the news that the research centre is going to shut down...
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Old 2006-11-02, 09:22   Link #82
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errr... i think you are thinking too much

except for hanyuu (with some extent : the reboot thing, and memories of rika), everything in HNNKN is pretty rationnal (even the syndrome isn't really unreal, it could be possible, based on the possible delusions with only psychological unstability). the world still has its mysteries, but it's rather possible to determine things with scienc and such (the story is fictionnal, yet, almost everything is based on facts)


for takano, you are mixing paranoia and... well, megalomania.
the syndrome is just putting the person under severe paranoia, creating fear, delusions, killing frenzy, and huge urging scratching need around the throat.
takano is simply a huge megalo, because of her grandfather (the syndrom could increase the effect though)
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Old 2006-11-02, 09:47   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
errr... i think you are thinking too much

except for hanyuu (with some extent : the reboot thing, and memories of rika), everything in HNNKN is pretty rationnal (even the syndrome isn't really unreal, it could be possible, based on the possible delusions with only psychological unstability). the world still has its mysteries, but it's rather possible to determine things with scienc and such (the story is fictionnal, yet, almost everything is based on facts)


for takano, you are mixing paranoia and... well, megalomania.
the syndrome is just putting the person under severe paranoia, creating fear, delusions, killing frenzy, and huge urging scratching need around the throat.
takano is simply a huge megalo, because of her grandfather (the syndrom could increase the effect though)
well like the original post stated, I'm just trying to link all of the above together. Cos sometimes folktale actually facts of the past but explained with the people's limited knowledge, and there maybe some truth in it. Like from example for all the folktale we heard, "the demons come from the swamp"/"the people have demon blood in them" etc, and if we link the "demon" to be " Hinamizawa Syndrome ", it actually makes pretty good sense.

But i admit that post was just another form of "takano's scrapebook" to try to rationalise how the syndrome come about lol.
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Old 2006-11-02, 22:48   Link #84
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I have to confess I had a good ride on tehtf post right there xD~

also, Takano scrapbooks are all lies made up to instigate further madness on her victims. Notice how she handles precisely the scrapbook which would trigger the most delusional behaviour for each character when needed (notes on Gosanke/Shinozaki wrongdoings for Shion, notes on the whole alien/bio weapon conspiracy to Rena), though Oishi apreended lots of her scrapbooks and none of them make sense at all.

I bet she is just having fun, but that's actually pretty smart, that's called "desinformation warfare", spreading incorrect information so you never know if you got is right or not.
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Old 2006-11-03, 08:16   Link #85
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Hey, everyone, this is my first post to the Higurashi board on the AnimeSuki forums; I'd like to thank the translators for all their hard work. This post contains a number of questions and guesses/theories, so please bear with me. I'm going to use the spoiler tags to save space, since this is kind of long

Spoiler for Why Rika's parents were killed:
Spoiler for The syringe Mion and Rena used on Keiichi:
Spoiler for How much of the first arc were Keiichi's delusions and hallucinations:
I'll post more later, but I really have to get some sleep now.
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Old 2006-11-03, 10:07   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
Hey, everyone, this is my first post to the Higurashi board on the AnimeSuki forums; I'd like to thank the translators for all their hard work. This post contains a number of questions and guesses/theories, so please bear with me. I'm going to use the spoiler tags to save space, since this is kind of long

Spoiler for Why Rika's parents were killed:
Spoiler for The syringe Mion and Rena used on Keiichi:
Spoiler for How much of the first arc were Keiichi's delusions and hallucinations:
I'll post more later, but I really have to get some sleep now.
On Tsumihoroboshi, it's already clear that there was no syringe or needle... It was a crayon in the first case

The reason of this specific hallucination?
Ooishi mentioned to Keiichi that Tomitake could have died from abuse of some drug (drug calls syringe, isn't it?)
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Old 2006-11-03, 10:49   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
Spoiler for Why Rika's parents were killed:
there is indeed a high chance that rika's mother was the "second sacrifice" (the sixth dam manager murderer would be the first)
also, this wouldn't be surprising if rika's father was in fact murdered by the yamainu, to put some chaos and paranoid beliefs (they were taking the opportunity with the 2 previous coincidence : dam manager murder, and houjou couple accident).

i agree with this : takano would have be behind the scene concerning the third incident.

Quote:
Spoiler for The syringe Mion and Rena used on Keiichi:
as said by theacefrehley above, in Tsumihoroboshi, it was revealed that the syringe was in fact a marker. Mion and Rena was only playing fools with punishment game, while waiting some help from Irie (since they weren't "evil" they were concerned about keiichi's erratic and strange behaviour).
that's why, you noticed yourself : it would be a bit weird for irie to come, while he gave a syringue to mion. this proves again that mion didn't have any syringue.

every scene with people under oyashiro-sama mode (AKA the "seed mode", cat/lizard eyes) are always delusions (they are only found in Onikakushi-hen, and Watanagashi-hen at the very end, when keiichi "saw" a "bloody mion" assaulting him, which was denied by the end scroll )

the 3 yamainu men were under irie command, and was supposed to take care of keiichi and bring him back home, under mion and rena's care, while he was coming with some treatment. (since keiichi was under L5 state). however, he didn't make in time...

but, you are right for one point : rika's syringue content is the C103. according the comments of irie about it, the C103 has nasty effects on sane people, which is why rika was really in a bad shape when shion injected her the C103, at meakashi-hen.
Quote:
Spoiler for How much of the first arc were Keiichi's delusions and hallucinations:
I'll post more later, but I really have to get some sleep now.
#4 : though the anime didn't show anything about this, if i'm not msitaken about some spoiler i could read somewhere, the "trap"ohagi was in fact filled with tabasco (or another really spicy sauce).
it is then assumed that keiichi thought his toungue was hurting and bleeding, although there wasn't any needle.

#2 : correct : Mion probably cursed ooshi, because of his way to solve the mysteries, causing probably keiichi to distrust everyone. (and indeed, keiichi misunderstoot it, with his delusions)

#1 : correct. (in the manga and the game, rena told in fact that she indeed saw keiichi buying instant noodles.)

#3 : again, correct : we can assume that rena was really scared, and begging keiichi to believe her, especially when she tried to hug/approche him. the laughter is, again, misterpretation due the paranoia.

for the other scenes, mainly "oyashiro mode", they are also delusions, either the speech or the action (rena trying to force the door while she was offering some dinner would in fact only put her fingers slowly, but keiichi took it as an attack, especially that she said he was lying and was a bit persistant and worried, so keiichi panicked again)
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Old 2006-11-03, 13:27   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
there is indeed a high chance that rika's mother was the "second sacrifice" (the sixth dam manager murderer would be the first)
also, this wouldn't be surprising if rika's father was in fact murdered by the yamainu, to put some chaos and paranoid beliefs (they were taking the opportunity with the 2 previous coincidence : dam manager murder, and houjou couple accident).
And slowly, but gradually, all the pieces are coming together, aren't they?
See Piece #07 which has just been posted as the truth behind that will be uncovered there.

Last edited by kj1980; 2006-11-03 at 13:38.
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Old 2006-11-03, 13:43   Link #89
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oh my... this is a fabulous piece oO
thx KJ, that is sure a perfect timing !

not only the "curse" system is now complete (mix of takano, sonozaki and anciant belief), but also the extent of takano power.

and iof course, with the H170, it wouldn't be hard for takano, to force rika's mother into a L5 state, which irie would not suspect at all. (previous queen thing, always next to rika etc...). takano is really smart and cunning ~~

but hell... she is REALLY THAT nuts
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Old 2006-11-03, 14:22   Link #90
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Yes, this and the putting the pieces thread together shows just how
diabolical Takano Miyo is - remember, this is her grandfather's research.

No cost is too extreme apparently for her. Yeow. This is a hell of a story.

You have to wonder what the 7th Expension group does for fun on the
weekends? Grim stuff!
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Old 2006-11-03, 14:58   Link #91
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quite nice piece there, thought that was pretty obvious already after we saw that Rika's mother was trying to stop the research and we knew she and her husband were going to be the next to die =p
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Old 2006-11-04, 01:15   Link #92
Khym Chanur
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Again, this is rather long, so using spoiler tags to not take up so much vertical screen space.

Spoiler for Responses to other posts:
Spoiler for Response to Piece #07:
Spoiler for About the reboots:
Spoiler for About Hanyuu and Oyashiro-sama:
Spoiler for Speculation about Satoshi's fate:
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Old 2006-11-04, 08:01   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
Ah. I was wondering why Mion and Rena would try something like water filled syringe penalty game on him given how unstable he'd been acting. Question: what delusion/hallucination caused Keiichi to rip out the portion of the note talking about the drugs and remove the crayon from the back of the clock? Or did Irie have that done to prevent the authorities from figuring out just how far Keiichi's delusions had gone? Or did Takano have it done, just for the fun of screwing with the minds of the police? Or (my final theory) the whole scene where Ooishi talks about what was found on the back of the clock was a dream/hallucination Keiichi had as he was dying.

Also, is there a summary/transcript of the Tsumihoroboshi game out there somewhere? I'm pretty sure that this wasn't revealed in the Tsumihoroboshi anime arc.
not really easy to answer this..
i guess the syringue matter was a problem for irie, since he gave to keiichi a shot (which was really suspicious, since it's quite bizarre to give a shot for the flu, and even worse when you know that keiichi faked a flu). so, they possibly misunderstood what keiichi meant with the syringue (but it would be a bit strange for them to remove the "syringue" which is in fact the marker )

but the police investigation is fact : we have another point of view, from ooishi. and this time, we know only what the police have found.
so, the note was really cut, and something is missing behind the clock.

Quote:
Okay, leaving someone in a L5 state alone with two civilians who have no idea how dangerous he is is really stupid. Why didn't the Yamainu babysit him? I suppose Irie didn't want Keiichi to associate the Yamainu with him, but they could have done something like tie him up and leave him somewhere where Irie could conveniently stumble upon upon him. So for whatever reason he decides to leave Keiichi in the care of Rena and Mion, but he can't warn them about how dangerous he is because he can't reveal anything about the Syndrome... But then how was he planning on injecting Keiichi with the C103/sedative all by himself, and without the girls knowing? If he was going to have the two of them hold Keiichi down for him, he'd have to give them some reason the injection. And why didn't Irie tell the Yamainu to disarm Keiichi? Gahhhhhh...
here is my little speculation :
although keiichi was under L5 state, i would say that irie was gambling with Mion and Rena, since they "are" his best friends. Even if keiichi was under L4-L5, he wouldn't expect him to have an immediate killing frenzey (probably just like satoko, who was kinda calm).
So, he probably asked for them to soothing a bit with some fun etc.
unfortunately for them, Keiichi was way more dangerous than expected.

like you said, he couldn't reveal what's the hinamizawa syndrom, so, his actions were really limited.
another problem : rena was around when keiichi snapped and get caught by the yamainu, so they wouldn't be able to take him to the facility (keiichi would witness the facility, and rena would think strange that they wouldn't let him rest, etc)

for the injection, i guess he will still inject him the C103, but lying to the girls saying : this is a sedative, he will be calmer, and with some time to rest, he will be better. he had probably too much stresses, homesickness etc.
Mion and Rena have witnessed keiichi's erratic behaviour, so some sedative would sound really normal i guess.

as for the bat, it's highly probable that the yamainu was simply underestimating like irie, his killing power. since keiichi was only defending himself and running away, they could think he was using this bat as only a threat and have no plan to smash anyone with it (and since keiichi is a kid for them, you can bet they were really not expecting him to cause a real threat to them...)



Quote:
Huh, wasn't Keiichi in oyashiro-sama mode back when Rena confronted him over the fact that he'd lied to cover up his first meeting with Ooishi? Do the delusions start as early as L1? Or was he already in a more advanced state?
we don't know how the scale goes for the Hinamizawa Syndrom, but we can expect that L2 and L3 just give some creeps, paranoia + some speech change and slight physical delusions (rena would probably say "uso da" but in another manner etc)

Quote:
Also, is ep 4 when Rena was telling Keiichi how she wouldn't let him be demoned away, was he hallucinating her carrying the hatchet, or was she really carrying it?
i think this is also an hallunication. (her school bag?)
keiichi was really under huge stress : seeing mion about the delusion "killing ooishi" would probably give him more creeps and would feel some direct killing attempt on him.


Quote:
And an unrelated question about the first arc: in ep 4, when Rena is apologizing for "taking the joke to far", is the joke her pretending to be all knowing by revealing what Keiichi is eating for dinner, the "trap" ohagi, or both?
this is hard to answer : according the manga, Rena didn't know about the trap ohagi. (and as far i could remember about the ohagi, it was mion, so...)
now, if we can imagine how rena would react "normally" here, it would be the first time that keiichi "attacks" her directly, leaving her no clue why he do that, though he is yelling "go home!". and we probably know : rena would feel herself guilty and could felt like it was her fault, and she was "fooling around".
however, the "too much" is really weird... it is also possible that it's ANOTHER delusion (it could be a mistake from the anime too).


Quote:
So the psychological trauma of being knifed by "Mion" was enough to send Keiichi straight from L0 to L5? Hmmmm, and is Keiichi infected with the parasite in every world? Obviously, not everyone who visits Hinamizawa becomes infected, so why is Keiichi always infected? Does the Irie clinic infect all newcomers to the area with the parasite? They already have several thousand native inhabitants to study, I would think that they'd want to see how quickly newcomers would be infected naturally, if at all. Or do the researchers think that the native inhabitants might have evolved a inheritable resistance to the parasite, and they want to see how someone with without those genes will react to the parasite?
i don't think you have to be under L5 for this kind of delusion. (i guess the terminal stage is some crazy behaviour with the killing frenzy. just compare how far keiichi was crazy in onikakushi hen, with rena in tsumihoroboshi hen)
it would be the L3-L4.
though, keiichi had experimented 2 near death experience with a "oni" mion : the silly "demon" case was really sticking his mind. with the stress and pain with theses 2 situations, it is kinda huge already. now, if you add some silly ooishi's "undead" comment, it would make sense.

i don't think there is anything special with the inhabitants, but like any pathogen, some people are more resilient to X pathogen than another etc.

Quote:
Hmmmm, I don't think that she would inject Rika's mother with H170. First, if someone who was daily in the presence of the queen went as far as L5, it would discredit her queen carrier theory. She could tell her superiors back in Tokyo what she'd done while keeping Irie in the dark, but feeding your chief researcher false information isn't a good way to run a research project, and it would likely get the project defunded. Second, I think Takano would have wanted to compare a pure, untampered queen to a pure, untampered previous queen, and injecting the former queen with H170 would have muddied up the data they would have gotten. So I think that Takano did the research/vivisection on the mother herself, and then presented the resulting data to Irie as a done deal, rather than have Irie do the procedures herself; after all, Takano did say that she wanted to get revenge on the mother herself.
Following the comments in the pieces, the queen has just the capability to suppress the "automatic L5 evolution". it woudn't always prevent any infected people to get crazy, or the very first case they were studying, the sixth dam manager murderer, would already nullify the theory.

we will see at another piece probably, but well... it is certain that takano will toy a lot with rika's mother, as the former queen or/and as a L5 state.
Spoiler for Response to Piece #07:


it's way too vague to understand her point of view, despite her comment about the queen etc. ~~

Spoiler for About the reboots:


about hanyuu : hanyuu is a part of rika's past and she will be always in her memories.
so the first theory is false i think : i don't think hanyuu will simply travel between the universe to help.
she will probably reboot to the maximum she could in the past, and when she succeed, it would create in the time, another universe.

so, you second theory is most likely the good one.

as for the second theory problem : this was a bit convenient, but most of the random and dangerous factor happen around 2 weeks befor ethe watanagashi festival.

keep in mind that several parts of the story are canon in any chapter like : the 4 oyashiro-sama incident, rena's past, ekiichi's past, shion and satoshi's story, shion who snapped towards mion etc.

they can't alter this, since it doesn't belong to the rule X, they are "inevitable".
Spoiler for About Hanyuu and Oyashiro-sama:


huho, long and nice theory ^^.
humm let's see...

why hanyuu is tied in hinamizawa?
this is hard to determine it, since we don't know how she was "born".
my guess is she didn't even try to find someone who can see her outside hinamizawa : she isn't really a brave character to begin with. so i would assume that she would think "this is useless, no one will see me anyway and even if someone does, it will reject me since i'm not human and i'm ugly" (i'm referring it with TIPS #136 )



Spoiler for Speculation about Satoshi's fate:

i don't really see his smile as a evil smirk (though his eyes are not visible, which would give this feeling)
in fact, the anime messed up this part of Tatarigoroshi.
according Sushi-Y, there wasn't any satoshi memory when keiichi pats her head.
as soon as he touches her, satoko snapped.
the main difference in the game and anime is : it's too late, she is broken. (i guess Deen made the "good" choice though : the anime watchers wouldn't have enough clue to guess it was already too late. so they put some satoshi memory to justify why she gets crazy like this)

don't think too much about satoshi, he is alive, but his wherabouts aren't shown yet.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2006-11-04 at 08:13.
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Old 2006-11-04, 16:34   Link #94
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Old 2006-11-04, 22:51   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
but the police investigation is fact : we have another point of view, from ooishi. and this time, we know only what the police have found.
so, the note was really cut, and something is missing behind the clock.
Here's another theory: the police have already found one L5 sufferer, Tomitake, even though he was a corpse when they found him, and the parasites had already broken gone. Keiichi was the second L5 sufferer the police had found, and he was still alive for 24 hours after the police got him. From the two L5 sufferers, the police might have a one in a million chance (or even a one in a billion chance) of figuring out what's going on, but for Takano even that small risk is too much. Leaving the intact note along with marker on the back of the clock would give the police the knowledge of just how delusional Keiichi was, which would increase their chance of figuring out what's truly happening. Taking everything off the back of the clock leaves the police with the one in a million chance of figuring out. But ripping out the middle of the note and taking the marker (while leaving the tape that held the marker, showing that something had been taken) muddies the waters and greatly reduces the already incredibly low chances of the police coming to the right conclusion. Tampering with the evidence reveals that there's somebody out there who's behind what happened to Keiichi (and by extension, what happened to Tomitake, since both of the scratched their throats bloody), but Ooishi already thinks that the Sonozaki family is behind everything, so Takano doesn't give the police any additional hints by revealing that there's some organization that's responsible for Keiichi's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
we don't know how the scale goes for the Hinamizawa Syndrome
A question about the syndrome scale: for the vast majority of the villagers who are infected with the parasite but have no symptoms, are they L0 or L1? Also, what does the "L" stand for? And while on the subject of letters, what does the "C" of C103 and the "H" of H170 stand for?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
i don't think you have to be under L5 for this kind of delusion. (i guess the terminal stage is some crazy behaviour with the killing frenzy. just compare how far keiichi was crazy in onikakushi hen, with rena in tsumihoroboshi hen)
But wasn't Satoko at L5, yet still pretty calm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Following the comments in the pieces, the queen has just the capability to suppress the "automatic L5 evolution". it wouldn't always prevent any infected people to get crazy, or the very first case they were studying, the sixth dam manager murderer, would already nullify the theory.
I can't remember where this is revealed, but I do remember that, according to the research done by Takano's grandfather, some of the villagers who left the Hinamizawa area developed lower level symptoms of the syndrome, yet when they came back, they almost instantly calmed down once they talked to the current queen carrier. Am I remembering this wrong, or is this a part of the theory that the grandfather discarded? If being in the queen carrier's immediate presence, not merely in the Hinamizawa region, suppresses the syndrome, then Rika wouldn't have prevented the damn manager and the construction workers from developing the syndrome, but would have prevented her mother from doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
huho, long and nice theory ^^.
humm let's see...

why hanyuu is tied in hinamizawa?
this is hard to determine it, since we don't know how she was "born".
my guess is she didn't even try to find someone who can see her outside hinamizawa : she isn't really a brave character to begin with. so i would assume that she would think "this is useless, no one will see me anyway and even if someone does, it will reject me since i'm not human and i'm ugly" (i'm referring it with TIPS #136 )
Oops! According to TIPS #136, Hanyuu was present at Rika's birth, which completely shoots down my convoluted theory. Wait, my theory could still be somewhat salvaged if a new Oyashiro-sama is born with each eighth generation Furude girl, and Hanyuu was born eight generations ago, when the previous Oyashiro-sama died. Hmmmm, I wonder how much I'm missing about Hanyuu since I haven't played the games and only know about Minagoroshi-hen by reading the translated TIPS. So, some questions about Hanyuu that might have been answered in the game:
  • Does she have any memories of parents, family, others of her kind, how she got her name, etc?
  • Is there any indication of how old she is?
  • Is Rika the only person who has ever been able to see Hanyuu, or was there a previous eighth generation Furude girl who could see her?
  • Why was Hanyuu present at Rika's birth? Had she heard the story about how the eighth generation Furude girl would be Oyashiro-sama's reincarnation, thought "Wait a minute, I'm Oyashiro-sama, what will happen to me if this child is a girl?", and waited around to see what would happen? Or has she been hanging around the Furude family for generations since the Furude's, being Hanyuu's priests and priestesses, are the closest thing she has to a family? Or both?
  • Can Hanyuu affect the world in any manner except for talking to Rika and turning back time? I get the impression she can't.
  • Is Hanyuu incorporeal (can move through solid objects), or does she have a solid body? (If she has a solid body, but can't affect the world in any way, she's incredibly vulnerable, and I can understand why she'd be so cowardly)
  • Does she need to eat, drink, breath, etc?
  • Does she know about the Great Disaster? Or, another way of putting it, how long after Rika's death does she wait before rewinding time?
  • What is she cowardly about? She doesn't always stick around Rika, because she was at Satoko's house at least once, saying "Sorry" over and over again, and she was at the government/village meeting where the Houjo/Sonozaki split happened. The arguments, shouting and threats and the meeting didn't scare her off; would she have fled if it started getting violent?
  • Are there any hints in the first six games that there might be an invisible entity with which Rika can communicate?
  • Satoko at least once hears Hanyuu saying "Sorry". Was this because she was starting to suffer from heat stroke from the hot-bath punishment? Because she was suffering from the syndrome? Both?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
i don't really see his smile as a evil smirk (though his eyes are not visible, which would give this feeling)
in fact, the anime messed up this part of Tatarigoroshi.
according Sushi-Y, there wasn't any satoshi memory when keiichi pats her head.
as soon as he touches her, satoko snapped.
the main difference in the game and anime is : it's too late, she is broken. (i guess Deen made the "good" choice though : the anime watchers wouldn't have enough clue to guess it was already too late. so they put some satoshi memory to justify why she gets crazy like this)
So in Rika's and Hanyuu's quest to create a happy ending for everyone, they're too late to create a happy ending Satoko, and are reduced to trying to find a least unhappy ending for her instead? That would really suck for Rika. And as a viewer/reader of the series, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth: I found Satoko's story to be the most pitiable and heart wrenching, yet in the end she has no chance for redemption? Or maybe she can be fixed, but it take years of therapy, years of therapy Satoko won't get if Rika isn't able to create the June 1983 happy ending?

EDIT: And a question about the reboots: with each reboot, the only things that change are whatever leads up to different things happening in June 1983, right? For instance, what happens in London has no bearing on what happens in Hinamizawa, so every last little thing that happens in London happens exactly the same for every reboot, right? Because if, say, random factors caused the people who died in car accidents in London to be different during each reboot, it would be strange that Takano, Tomitake, Irie and all the Watanagashi victims never, ever die in car accidents due to random factors, no matter how many reboots there are.

So, assuming I got that right, the differences between reboots are caused by Rika acting differently. For instance, in different reboots she varies how she plays the game at the toy shop, so sometimes Keiichi wins the doll and sometimes he doesn't, and whenever Keiichi wins the doll he gives it to Rena, resulting in Shion evenutally going crazy and killing everyone (I'm guessing that Rika evneutally figured out that "Keiichi wins doll" -> "Shion going insane", and thereafter insured that Keiichi never won the doll again). However, there are other changes that don't seem to be directly tied to Rika. For instance, in Onikakushi-hen (ep 1-4) Ooishi interviews Keiichi about Tomitake's apparent suicide, but at the start Tsumihoroboshi-hen (ep 22-26) Ooishi interviews Rena instead, and at the end of Tsumihoroboshi-hen he interviews Rika. Does Rika phone in an anonymous tip to the police saying "You should ask X about Tomitake", varying it with each reboot, or is Rika indirectly and unintentionally inlfuencing Ooishi, like through some form of butterfly effect. Or is there someone besides Rika who can behave different during each reboot, independant of how s/he is directly or indirectly influenced by Rika's actions?

Last edited by Khym Chanur; 2006-11-05 at 01:51.
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Old 2006-11-05, 01:27   Link #96
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L = Level

L5 = Level 5.

Hope that clears up that little detail for you
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Old 2006-11-05, 08:48   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khym Chanur View Post
A question about the syndrome scale: for the vast majority of the villagers who are infected with the parasite but have no symptoms, are they L0 or L1? Also, what does the "L" stand for? And while on the subject of letters, what does the "C" of C103 and the "H" of H170 stand for?
as said earlier : L for level. also, there is no L0 (or the subject is sane). L1 refers as "infected, but no symptoms"
there is no information for the C and H yet. (they are probably generic names)

Quote:
But wasn't Satoko at L5, yet still pretty calm?
that's right, but you can compare how keiichi and Rena's paranoia have grown. at some point, keiichi was having huge delusions without getting its personnal terminal stage (that's also the case for rena).


Quote:
I can't remember where this is revealed, but I do remember that, according to the research done by Takano's grandfather, some of the villagers who left the Hinamizawa area developed lower level symptoms of the syndrome, yet when they came back, they almost instantly calmed down once they talked to the current queen carrier. Am I remembering this wrong, or is this a part of the theory that the grandfather discarded? If being in the queen carrier's immediate presence, not merely in the Hinamizawa region, suppresses the syndrome, then Rika wouldn't have prevented the damn manager and the construction workers from developing the syndrome, but would have prevented her mother from doing so.
the main flaw of this thing is the fact that there is no huge deal with hinamizawa people at Watanagashi-hen and meakashi-hen, so the queen theory is wrong.
the environment could be a factor, but like i said earlier, there are several people who didn't suffer anything from moving away).
thus, it's possible that the cause is the oyashiro belief (it will punish who would try to betray hinamizawa. running away is considered as a sin), or something external from people life (something random etc)
so, returning to hinamizawa could give them a relief feeling, and would suppress some of the symptoms.

Quote:
Oops! According to TIPS #136, Hanyuu was present at Rika's birth, which completely shoots down my convoluted theory. Wait, my theory could still be somewhat salvaged if a new Oyashiro-sama is born with each eighth generation Furude girl, and Hanyuu was born eight generations ago, when the previous Oyashiro-sama died. Hmmmm, I wonder how much I'm missing about Hanyuu since I haven't played the games and only know about Minagoroshi-hen by reading the translated TIPS. So, some questions about Hanyuu that might have been answered in the game:
i will only quote what i can answer ^^;

keep in mind that the following answers might not be accurate/true.
my knowledge is limited to : the anime, manga, the aniesuki translations, the actual minagoroshi translation, and some spoilers scattered around. (i have the game, but since i have no japanese knowledge (patiently waiting for the future patches ), i just took a quick look to matsuribayashi, without spoilering myself too much XD)

for the general information, until it's said in the game, we don't have any clue about hanyuu past. it appears that she witnessed lots of things from the past etc, nothing really accurate.


Quote:
  • Can Hanyuu affect the world in any manner except for talking to Rika and turning back time? I get the impression she can't.
  • Is Hanyuu incorporeal (can move through solid objects), or does she have a solid body? (If she has a solid body, but can't affect the world in any way, she's incredibly vulnerable, and I can understand why she'd be so cowardly)
  • Does she need to eat, drink, breath, etc?
  • Does she know about the Great Disaster? Or, another way of putting it, how long after Rika's death does she wait before rewinding time?
  • What is she cowardly about? She doesn't always stick around Rika, because she was at Satoko's house at least once, saying "Sorry" over and over again, and she was at the government/village meeting where the Houjo/Sonozaki split happened. The arguments, shouting and threats and the meeting didn't scare her off; would she have fled if it started getting violent?
  • Are there any hints in the first six games that there might be an invisible entity with which Rika can communicate?
  • Satoko at least once hears Hanyuu saying "Sorry". Was this because she was starting to suffer from heat stroke from the hot-bath punishment? Because she was suffering from the syndrome? Both?
  • She can't, except in Matsuribayashi
  • She doesn't have a body, except in Matsuribayashi
  • no, she doesn't have any body needs.
  • According the Minagoroshi Prologue, Frederica Bernkastel, as Rika, asks to us if we know something that differs between Watanagashi/Meakashi with the rest of the worlds, while saying she is rika, so she can't know anything just before and after her death. We can deduce that either Hanyuu didn't stay long after rika died (according the TIPS #136, she almost always stays close to rika), or she didn't really take the Disaster as a clue.
  • it seems that she is sometimes roaming around, and get really hysteric when she knows that someone else can sense her. She keeps saying "i'm sorry" because she thinks she is the cause of the tragedy / or she couldn't do anything. Her personnality is the main reason why rika didn't use her "ultimate spy" status : she is so pessimist, scared and have a really low self esteem (she keeps saying she is powerless) that rika wouldn't think it would work anyway (though it would be easier if rika sent hanyuu to check what happenned to tomitake and takano) there is however something special said in minagoroshi : when rika presented hanyuu to the reader, she said "only I can see her. or perhaps i should say she lives inside of me".
  • There are some hints i guess, like the TIPS #123. i "assume" that Hanyuu was "officially shown" with Minagoroshi, but again, i'm not sure.
  • One of the symptoms of the hinamizawa syndrom is to be able to hear hanyuu voice and her footsteps. unfortunately, theses facts just make the victiml paranoia worse...
Quote:
So in Rika's and Hanyuu's quest to create a happy ending for everyone, they're too late to create a happy ending Satoko, and are reduced to trying to find a least unhappy ending for her instead? That would really suck for Rika. And as a viewer/reader of the series, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth: I found Satoko's story to be the most pitiable and heart wrenching, yet in the end she has no chance for redemption? Or maybe she can be fixed, but it take years of therapy, years of therapy Satoko won't get if Rika isn't able to create the June 1983 happy ending?
i think there is no particular need to save satoko's parents for a happy end for satoko.
It's true she wouldn't suffer as much, but there wouldn't have any guarantee that she could live peacefully with her parents, whil in Hinamizawa (the dam project and all.)

the past is the part you can't change. granted, the present can be altered to bring a brighter future. so satoko is not really hopeless.
As you could see in the story, satoko is perfectly fine in most chapters, except when her uncle is back. Despite the dramatic end of Minagoroshi, satoko's case will be fixed (you will probably give more than 1 thumb for keiichi ^^)


Quote:
EDIT: And a question about the reboots: with each reboot, the only things that change are whatever leads up to different things happening in June 1983, right? For instance, what happens in London has no bearing on what happens in Hinamizawa, so every last little thing that happens in London happens exactly the same for every reboot, right? Because if, say, random factors caused the people who died in car accidents in London to be different during each reboot, it would be strange that Takano, Tomitake, Irie and all the Watanagashi victims never, ever die in car accidents due to random factors, no matter how many reboots there are.
We don't know since we have a really small amount of "universes".
If i recall right, rika said that she once tried to survive by herself and she hide in the woods. ironically, this was the time she survived the longest period ever. (i don't remember how many hours...)

so, it is possible that in some stories, there are random accidents. However, as you can see, in hinamizawa, there isn't a lot of possibilities of this.
Also, the more hanyuu and Rika reboot the world, the less they can turn back, so there is absolutely no chance that a random factor "helps" and prevents some tragedy (it would be good if takano died a long time ago in a car accident for exemple, but it would end the tragedy immediatelly so )


Quote:
So, assuming I got that right, the differences between reboots are caused by Rika acting differently. For instance, in different reboots she varies how she plays the game at the toy shop, so sometimes Keiichi wins the doll and sometimes he doesn't, and whenever Keiichi wins the doll he gives it to Rena, resulting in Shion evenutally going crazy and killing everyone (I'm guessing that Rika evneutally figured out that "Keiichi wins doll" -> "Shion going insane", and thereafter insured that Keiichi never won the doll again). However, there are other changes that don't seem to be directly tied to Rika. For instance, in Onikakushi-hen (ep 1-4) Ooishi interviews Keiichi about Tomitake's apparent suicide, but at the start Tsumihoroboshi-hen (ep 22-26) Ooishi interviews Rena instead, and at the end of Tsumihoroboshi-hen he interviews Rika. Does Rika phone in an anonymous tip to the police saying "You should ask X about Tomitake", varying it with each reboot, or is Rika indirectly and unintentionally inlfuencing Ooishi, like through some form of butterfly effect. Or is there someone besides Rika who can behave different during each reboot, independant of how s/he is directly or indirectly influenced by Rika's actions?
the problem : each different action can lead a different result.
however, the events in hinamizawa can change.
example : rika didn't do anything, but keiichi learns about the hinamizawa serial murders differently (the worse case was he discovered too early while he didn't have a solid trust for his friends, and their denial drive him paranoid).
So, like it is said in the minagoroshi prologue : some events are inevitable, due the "strong will" of certain persons.
Some events happen depending of the previous random and different factors.
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Old 2006-11-05, 11:08   Link #98
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Now it seems to me that the "queen theory" IS a fake.

But there are still some other questions.

The needled (cake, pie) something in the 1st arc. What was that?

Quote:
however, the "too much" is really weird... it is also possible that it's ANOTHER delusion (it could be a mistake from the anime too).
Is that about the part when Rena was standing gomenasaing outside with the box?
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Old 2006-11-05, 11:12   Link #99
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i said it earlier, but nevermind ^^"

i'm not 100% sure, but it was said that the ohagi was filled with tabasco (or another spicy sauce), which mislead keiichi. (under his extreme paranoia, he sensed a wound, instead of the spicy taste... duh XD)

mion didn't denied that she set a trap when keiichi was yelling at her, but she wouldn't understand why he was saying "blood" etc. (rena didn't know anything about the "wrong ohagi" )

EDIT : i found my source! XD (in lostblue spoiler, Tsumihoroboshi Hen )

Last edited by Klashikari; 2006-11-05 at 11:25.
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Old 2006-11-05, 18:29   Link #100
Khym Chanur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
the main flaw of this thing is the fact that there is no huge deal with hinamizawa people at Watanagashi-hen and meakashi-hen, so the queen theory is wrong.
Ah, sorry, I wasn't being specific enough. I know that the queen theory is wrong, what I was wondering is what Takano and her grandfather believe about the queen theory. Her grandfather noted that if a villager left and started developing symptoms, that the symptoms would go away as soon as s/he talked with the current queen carrier. Is this a part of Takano's theory, or did her grandfather discard this belief from the queen theory before his death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
If i recall right, rika said that she once tried to survive by herself and she hide in the woods. ironically, this was the time she survived the longest period ever. (i don't remember how many hours...)
Has Rika never tried to prevent the first the Watanagashi murder/disappearance? I would think that Rika would think "Maybe if I prevent the first Watanagashi incident, I'll stop all the incidents, and my parents won't become victims, even if it doesn't prevent me from dying", and give it a try in at least one reboot. The the first incident would be the easiest one to both understand and to prevent, and if she (unknowingly) prevented Takano from acquiring the first live L5 test subject, things would go a lot differently, and she'd know that she was onto something, so I guess she never tried; I wonder why. I guess she believes that the Watanagashi incidents are just unconnected coincidences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
the problem : each different action can lead a different result.
however, the events in hinamizawa can change.
example : rika didn't do anything, but keiichi learns about the hinamizawa serial murders differently (the worse case was he discovered too early while he didn't have a solid trust for his friends, and their denial drive him paranoid).
Seemingly unimportant actions that Rika takes could indirectly lead to a series of events that causes important changes down the road. For instance, in one reboot Rika could bump into a woman carrying a shopping bag, causing the bag to drop and a jar to break. The woman has to go back to the grocery store to buy another jar, which causes her to be late for something, which causes A, which causes B, which causes C, and so on, ultimately resulting in Ooishi asking Keiichi about Tomitake, leading to Keiichi going crazy. In other reboots, she doesn't bump into the woman, so Keiichi never learns about that Watanagashi incidents early enough to trigger his syndrome.

And an unimportant question (but I'm curious): one of the Pieces reveals that the syndrome researchers intend to trepan Rika so that they can get a sample of her cranial fluid. Does the game ever show the hole in Rika's head?
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