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Old 2009-06-16, 11:01   Link #1081
maximilianjenus
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oh, the last posts almost did not make sense, are you making the antyfantasy vs antymistery thing again?
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Old 2009-06-16, 11:12   Link #1082
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hmm?? again?

No im just going with the flow of the converstation as to pinpoint whats the reality within the story vs the ilusions of the characters thats all.
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Old 2009-06-16, 17:29   Link #1083
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From a normal point of view you'd say Rika suffers from multi personality disorder. Between her Nipaa self and her 100+ years self. From Rei point of view she'd wish to be friends with everyone while clearly shes not.

But this all is only when you consider that world to be the real one!
I wouldn't say that MPD is necessary. Schizophrenia can cover that, since one of the symptoms can be a lack of desire to form relationships. Even her alcoholism can be explained by it, as substance abuse is quite common in affected individuals.

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oh, the last posts almost did not make sense, are you making the antyfantasy vs antymistery thing again?
If one uses Saikoroshi-hen as a foundation, I don't see a way to take an anti-mystery stance provided one treats Rika's beliefs and experiences as suspect. Neither Rika nor anyone else displays any supernatural powers, so everything can be explained as the effects of Rika being schizophrenic and experiencing delusions of grandeur and hallucinations. Even the scene in the end where she's reunited with her friends could be seen as a final hallucination which Rika experiences as she's ending her life.
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Old 2009-06-16, 21:39   Link #1084
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Would it explain the first question arc? Where Rika wasn't all that central to anything (or at least as presented since it was all K1's point of view)? Possibly the second question arc as well.
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:02   Link #1085
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Eryops, Higurashi ≠ Umineko.
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Old 2009-06-16, 22:20   Link #1086
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Eryops, Higurashi ≠ Umineko.
It does provide an interesting story-interpretation perspective, and it might be true in a particular instance, so that's not a bad thing all things considered.
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Old 2009-06-16, 23:05   Link #1087
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Would it explain the first question arc? Where Rika wasn't all that central to anything (or at least as presented since it was all K1's point of view)? Possibly the second question arc as well.
You can still assume that all the previous arcs before Saikoroshi-hen are stories that Rika has made up. It's just that she didn't make herself the protagonist in all of them. Perhaps the fact that she focuses on her classmates are going crazy in these imaginary worlds and killing each other is her way of having revenge against them for not being her friends.

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Eryops, Higurashi ≠ Umineko.
I'm aware of that. It's simply that since the point of Umineko is to deny witches and magic, I wanted to see if it was possible to do the same with Higurashi. It can actually be done surprisingly easily.
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Old 2009-06-17, 08:16   Link #1088
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I think its hard since there are many different options available to be the true story. This last one is treated as a dream or perhaps the other way around. Or maybe it realy happend and still everything is real but Rika caused it all by butchering her mom?
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Old 2009-06-17, 11:03   Link #1089
maximilianjenus
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Reminds me of the ending of a certain manga made by the author of sayonara zetsubou sensei, in which everything was a delusion in the end or one of the alternative endings of pretty face where everything, again, was a delusion of comatose randou.
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Old 2009-06-17, 13:01   Link #1090
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I think its hard since there are many different options available to be the true story. This last one is treated as a dream or perhaps the other way around. Or maybe it realy happend and still everything is real but Rika caused it all by butchering her mom?
The sinless world was real. Firstly, Hanyuu does tell Rika that she died and the way she arrives to that world is like she did in all the previous ones. Secondly, Rika feels convinced that it was a real world. Thirdly, Hanyuu tells Rika to treat that world as a dream because Rika can never return to it and her decisions there do not affect the world she's in afterwards and because Hanyuu wishes to assuage Rika's guilt. And finally, Hanyuu truly cared about Rika. She would have never given her a choice that would effectively be between awakening into the real world or staying in a coma for life. That world had to have been real.

What happened was that Rika had her head crushed by the truck and ended up in the sinless world. Then she killed her mother and allowed Hanyuu to enter that world, after which she killed herself and Hanyuu transferred her memories to a world where the truck by chance only sent Rika into a coma instead of killing her.
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Old 2009-06-17, 13:11   Link #1091
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I have my doubt about that:
1) Hanyuu could have lied about it
2) being in a false world/dream doesn't mean the impression of "real" world isn't possible.
3) If we speculate that Hanyuu created this one for Rika's sake, it would be also something she would decide to never show it to her ever again
4) We can speculate that Hanyuu made this world because she care about Rika. And there is no proof she would be stuck in "this world" if she made the other choice.

What makes this world special is that it is so wrong that it is hardly possible considering the hundred years worth of torture both Rika and Hanyuu had to get through.
My own view is that Rika was indeed in the coma and Hanyuu decided to teach her a lesson and apposed this "world" to Rika.

Of course, since there is absolutely no proof whatsoever, there can be even more speculation about what this world "really is".
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Old 2009-06-17, 13:14   Link #1092
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It could have been to get Bern to stop playing the game and move on. Hanyuu might have been trying to get Bern to go and do something else (Assuming Hanyuu knows Bern as well as Rika). Also could have been a setup so the author could move on to his next project with a possible connection to his previous project for the players to connect with (real or not).
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Old 2009-06-17, 13:43   Link #1093
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Of course, since there is absolutely no proof whatsoever, there can be even more speculation about what this world "really is".
I think that Hanyuu telling Rika she can choose freely only to dump her back in the previous world if he makes the "wrong" choice would render the whole thing pointless, since that was meant as an actual choice for her. Hanyuu is trying to ensure Rika's happiness, so I don't think she'd present her with an option only to snatch it away afterwards.

Also, I think it makes sense that simply due to luck Rika dies in one world from the truck and survives in the other one, as that fits with the random variation seen between the previous worlds as well.

There's also the fact that we witness the creation of the sinless world. After all in the 52nd piece Bern saves Miyoko's parents and also mentions that she wishes to see a world where Satoshi is present, the Sonozaki twins don't change places and where Rika's and Satoko's parents are alive, which are all features of that world. Having this world actually is assembled by Bern beforehand only to have Saikoroshi-hen get set in a dream seems implausible to me. As to why that world is so different, it may simply be because since the game is over, ΛΔ no longer uses her power to ensure that the tragedy repeats itself.
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Old 2009-06-17, 14:10   Link #1094
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It could have been to get Bern to stop playing the game and move on. Hanyuu might have been trying to get Bern to go and do something else (Assuming Hanyuu knows Bern as well as Rika).
I don't even think Hanyuu knows the existence of Bernkastel.
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Old 2009-06-17, 16:13   Link #1095
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Hmm the thing is this *sinless* world shows its dull boring and there is no friendship for Rika with her friends. Also the village gets destroyed in the near future. So if the Dam war never takes place with all its atributes all the good that comes after it never happens.

The abcense of Keiichi is easy to explain, his dad wont move to a village thats about to be a lake ^^.
So no real-estate project.

Shame tho that Rika didnt check if there realy is a keiichi dr Irie or Takano in the world somewhere, it could prove if shes nuts or not.
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Old 2009-06-17, 16:16   Link #1096
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Hmm the thing is this *sinless* world shows its dull boring and there is no friendship for Rika with her friends. Also the village gets destroyed in the near future. So if the Dam war never takes place with all its atributes all the good that comes after it never happens.
The whole point of it was that Rika had the option of making friends at the school. And after she moved away she'd be able to make new friends as well. That world would have been as dull as Rika would choose to make it.

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Shame tho that Rika didnt check if there realy is a keiichi dr Irie or Takano in the world somewhere, it could prove if shes nuts or not.
There was no Takano. A Tanashi would exist but she'd be completely different.
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Old 2009-06-17, 16:52   Link #1097
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eh, i know she took on her adoptive fathers name and her real name is diff. But you get the point right?

About the happy future Rika wants/seeks thats a world with Keiichi, Rena, Mion & Satoko as always having fun and playing their games. And those are the people she trusts. All the others she cant reach anymore or she gave up on. Like her parents & Satoshi.

Interesting enough the only person she did reach is just as much a key to solving the endless june thats Akasaka but even he doesnt show up in this last story. Even tho he did hear the entire story and came seeking her in the worlds that matterd.
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Old 2009-06-17, 17:09   Link #1098
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About the happy future Rika wants/seeks thats a world with Keiichi, Rena, Mion & Satoko as always having fun and playing their games. And those are the people she trusts. All the others she cant reach anymore or she gave up on. Like her parents & Satoshi.
She only gave up on them because she couldn't prevent their deaths or disappearances. In what way is that relevant in a world where they are still around?
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Old 2009-06-18, 06:38   Link #1099
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Very relavant since parents like Satokos or Rikas could make a difference in many ways. As she was able to save Akasaka's wife and he eventualy was 1 of the factors that made victory possible. Now what if she were able to save any of the others?

Btw talking negativly never helps ^^
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Old 2009-06-18, 07:35   Link #1100
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Very relavant since parents like Satokos or Rikas could make a difference in many ways. As she was able to save Akasaka's wife and he eventualy was 1 of the factors that made victory possible. Now what if she were able to save any of the others?

Btw talking negativly never helps ^^
Reading comprehension (and writing skills) aren't your strong points, huh?

What I was saying is that Rika distanced herself from her parents because she couldn't save them. However in the sinless world that was not an issue as they would not die and Satoshi wouldn't disappear. Therefore she had no reason not to get closer to them, which can serve to compensate for the loss of Hanyuu and her friends. The whole point of Saikoroshi-hen is that the two worlds were balanced and neither choice was obviously better.
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