AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Higurashi

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-06-03, 00:13   Link #1181
Kochiya
Lv.6 Railgun and violin
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chireiden
Send a message via MSN to Kochiya
Hi all, I'm new to this forum. Look forward to knowing all.

Just in passing, does anyone know which magazine Minagoroshi is currently published in?
Kochiya is offline  
Old 2010-06-17, 01:26   Link #1182
xavior686
Professor Insanity
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Louisiana
Age: 30
Remember the embarassment Takano's adopted grandfather went through when his papers were stomped on? Miyo went through a very similar ordeal when she was presenting the case for prolonging research on HS to her new funders (after Koizumi died there was a changing of the guard.)

This, combinded with the "Tokyo" organization promising her revenge since they were Koizumi sympathizers, and no doubt a good ol' bit of HS occuring inside herself, my take is she figured she'd use drastic measures to prove to everyone her research.

If she can do this, she can show the world her grandfather's great achievements in research and that he (and her) would live on eternally in the minds of people, thus becoming an eternal "god."

EDIT: OK I'm an idiot. My post was in response to uhhh....page 2 of this thread. I thought I was actually posting in response to the latest post. Don't ask why.
__________________
The Doc's got your prescription...for LOVE!

xavior686 is offline  
Old 2011-06-21, 18:33   Link #1183
Yirba
Spider Lily Translations
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: England
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kochiya View Post
Hi all, I'm new to this forum. Look forward to knowing all.

Just in passing, does anyone know which magazine Minagoroshi is currently published in?
I believe Minagoroshi-hen was published in Monthly GFantasy. I'm not entirely certain, but I think it's finished now.
Yirba is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 08:53   Link #1184
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Recently I've started reading the Higurashi sound novels after watching the anime a few years ago.
I have just finished tatarigoroshi but there's something that really bothers me about this arc.

The first thing is the fake alibi that Mion & co. made up to protect Keiichi. Isn't that something that would be extermely easy to bust? It's not like they are saying they have been with Keiichi playing in some isolated place. They are saying that he was in the middle of festival with literally all of Hinamizawa and part of Okinomiya in it.
And they didn't stop there, they said that Keiichi went through many stands and with his oratory abilities made people flock around them, and they described how Keiichi knowcked down the giant teddy bear with the cork guns.

There's literally a hundred of people that could deny that all of that ever happened. Plus all of Hinamizawa knows Keiichi and therefore all of Hinamiza could technically claim they have never seen Keiichi at the festival.

Does that mean that Mion managed to get all of Hinamizawa in it? Of course we know that this is not impossible, we know that such thing happened during the dam construction resistance. But then doesn't that mean that practically anyone on Hinamizawa knew what Keiichi did?

Anyway let's assume they'd testify a lie for Keiichi's sake and that Mion could make it happen. But if Mion had that power wasn't there a better option for her to choose? Wasn't it better to get a few people helping Keiichi (or covering his back) rather than letting him do anything alone with the risk that he would mess up, and be killed, injured and/or arrested?

More importantly, why when Keiichi tells Satoko that her uncle didn't return home that night, Rena later inquires about that? Why Rena inquired about that rather than trying to cover Keiichi's ass? I suppose that if they played that charade at school was because there were people there that didn't know what happened, like Chie sensei and some of the kids. What was Rena's big idea?


The second thing that bothers me is how conveniently Keiichi managed to "predict" so many people's death and disappearances. I guess that for what concerns Takano, Irie and Ooishi he was simply cursing people at random and Hinamizawa was in a crisis so it could easily happen. I could bitch about the perfect timing and order but I think it can pass. His wish about the whole Hinamzawa disappearing was a bit out there, though, and then again the timing was absolutely perfect. But okay... let's even say that it was a very funny coincidence.
But then what about the reporter that interviewed him later? Yet again Keiichi wishes him to die and he actually dies prematurely later. Not only that, Keiichi predicts that he will drown and that's exactly how he dies.

Does L5 grants the supernatural power to predict the future? That seems quite a long series of coincidences to me.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 10:30   Link #1185
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 20
Send a message via MSN to Bluemail
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
More importantly, why when Keiichi tells Satoko that her uncle didn't return home that night, Rena later inquires about that? Why Rena inquired about that rather than trying to cover Keiichi's ass? I suppose that if they played that charade at school was because there were people there that didn't know what happened, like Chie sensei and some of the kids. What was Rena's big idea?
Maybe she was trying to say to Keiichi in a roundabout way that he shouldn't talk about it, that he should just pretend it never happened? But Keiichi didn't get it and the talk before and it made it look like Rena was just suspicious of him and there was a doppelganger running around. The constructed alibi was a bit too detailed, as you say. Ryukishi just goes a bit too far sometimes. Mion only has a couple of people in it in order to convince Keiichi only, and as Keiichi never asks any random people about if he was in the festival... But yeah, maybe Ryukishi didn't think it through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The second thing that bothers me is how conveniently Keiichi managed to "predict" so many people's death and disappearances. I guess that for what concerns Takano, Irie and Ooishi he was simply cursing people at random and Hinamizawa was in a crisis so it could easily happen. I could bitch about the perfect timing and order but I think it can pass. His wish about the whole Hinamzawa disappearing was a bit out there, though, and then again the timing was absolutely perfect. But okay... let's even say that it was a very funny coincidence.
But then what about the reporter that interviewed him later? Yet again Keiichi wishes him to die and he actually dies prematurely later. Not only that, Keiichi predicts that he will drown and that's exactly how he dies.

Does L5 grants the supernatural power to predict the future? That seems quite a long series of coincidences to me.
Okay, my theory for the final death: Takano hears the interview and as she finds out how everything fits in her plan and sort of seems to frame Keiichi as the killer, she takes care of drowning the reporter, further strenghtening the image of Oyashiro-sama's curse and her place as a god. But well, the earlier deaths were probably just convenient coincidences for the story. It is just that the readers need to understand the real events behind the different deaths and not happening because Keiichi curses them.
__________________

Umineko no Naku Koro ni ~Rondo of the Witch and Reasoning~ for PS3/PSP
NISA publisher support thread - AKSYS publisher support thread - Facebook group - deviantArt group - Petition
Bluemail is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 13:10   Link #1186
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Didn't he drown because he was on a boat and that boat sinked? That's quite an overkill for a single person ^^; Did Takano still hold that much power after the Hinamizawa disaster?

Actually is there any official information concerning what happens to Takano after the disaster in the many worlds where everything goes according to her plans?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 16:38   Link #1187
Kantoku
見ぬが花
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I think she and Tomitake said she would "stop living as Takano Miyo" and return to be "Tanashi Miyoko". Her only goal in life is to have her and her grandfather's name revered, so once Hinamizawa is destroyed, her theory is effectively proven, and there is no reason to keep that name anymore. But that's all that that was stated; as for what really happens aside from that, nobody really knows.

As for Rena, I think she and Mion were simply trying to heavily imply to Keiichi that he should shut up and quit asking what happened. Basically, "don't ask, don't tell". Nobody except the club members knew what Keiichi did, so there would be no reason for anyone to really inquire of his presence. He might as well just blended in with the non-locals. They probably had the same thought as Keiichi: if everyone keeps quiet and he goes along with their story, everything can be covered up and they can go on living the happy days again. Quoting my answer to a similar question in the Q&A section,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kantoku View Post
Should the series have stopped at Tatarigoroshi-hen, then the theories of Keiichi being mistaken (since he was already at L5) and the Yamainu disposing the body would be plausible. But as Bluemail said, it's more likely that Mion and Rena were the ones who hid the body, since they said (correct me if I'm wrong) "We're going treasure hunting in the forest. You can't refuse, right?". Mion was also the one who hid Rina's body in Tsumihoroboshi-hen.
If the whole group disappeared on the night of the Watanagashi, that would raise suspicions among everyone. Mion and Rena, even though they knew Keiichi would do something to Teppei (as said in the TIPS, "Just like Satoshi"), probably did not realize he would murder Teppei on THAT night specifically, so they had to forge something quickly to cover for him. Then again, what if everything Keiichi heard was a lie, aside from Teppei's death? He isn't a very reliable narrator after all

As for the prediction of deaths, yes, they are all merely coincidences that happened with awfully perfect timing.

As for the reporter, Takano / Tokyo / the Yamainu probably drowned him to reinforce the theory that Oyashiro-sama has the power to kill, and maybe also to silence the reporter from researching the matter any further. Tokyo is very fearful on how quiet things are kept, and since the organization has so much power, it would not be surprising if they nitpicked every detail of the death ^^;

Sorry if any of this is hard to understand ;;

Last edited by Kantoku; 2011-09-12 at 16:58.
Kantoku is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 21:18   Link #1188
Toia
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brazil
Wouldn't Nomura kill Takano after she accomplished her goal? Okonogi said something like that in the end of Matsuribayashi-hen.
Toia is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 22:04   Link #1189
Kantoku
見ぬが花
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toia View Post
Wouldn't Nomura kill Takano after she accomplished her goal? Okonogi said something like that in the end of Matsuribayashi-hen.
I sort of took his statement as applying to if she only failed and caused too much trouble for Tokyo. I'm not sure if Takano would be the type to simply take her death so willingly just like that my memory of the last arc was quite vague, though, I'm not sure if there was any other explicit evidence that she would definitely be killed upon killing Hinamizawa.
Kantoku is offline  
Old 2011-09-12, 22:10   Link #1190
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
She served her purpose and she wasn't completely sane, I wouldn't be surprised of Tokyo decided to silence her forever.
And by the way, if I remember correctly Tokyo never had any interest in the curse of Oyashiro or the creation of a myth, its reasons have always been political. Once the Hinamizawa disaster operation was completed it had no longer any reason to support Miyo's crazy plan.

I think the reporter death was simply another crazy coincidence after all.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2011-09-13, 13:01   Link #1191
Toia
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brazil
Were Hanyuu and Akasaka originally planned? In the Tatarigoroshi-hen wrap party the characters said the next episode is Meakashi-hen. Could be that R07 had planned Rika to act alone, but then decided to add Hanyuu?
Toia is offline  
Old 2011-09-13, 15:44   Link #1192
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
The reporter drowned 7-8 years after the GHD, and the interview wasn't discovered for another 7-8 years after that. It's just a coincidence.
rogerpepitone is offline  
Old 2011-09-15, 14:47   Link #1193
PBsaffran
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toia View Post
Were Hanyuu and Akasaka originally planned? In the Tatarigoroshi-hen wrap party the characters said the next episode is Meakashi-hen. Could be that R07 had planned Rika to act alone, but then decided to add Hanyuu?
Considering Hanyű's first appearance is in the first sentence after the intro of the first novel, I would say that she was pretty much planned along.

What wasn't planned along is the time Ryűkishi needed to complete the damn thing. He thought he'd be done with the whole story within a year (and that's on his free time from a full time job). So yeah, basically, after tatarigoroshi, he "missed" a Comiket (the next game scenario was not finished) so that's probably when he decided to do Himatsubushi in between (because Meakashi was still not finished I suppose).

It migh come up again in the interviews he's given for the book releases.
PBsaffran is offline  
Old 2011-09-23, 15:11   Link #1194
L in Hinamizawa
I guess Erika would be E?
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In Hinamizawa trying to solve the Curse of Oyashiro Sama
Age: 21
I finally finished the last episide of Maturibayashi hen! Victory for the Cliub!
And I must say that I cried watching little Takano's scene at the very end.

However, some things about it have been bugging me about it since I watched it.
1. Why on earth did everyone seem ok with Mion taking Takano's final bullet? it seemed extremly out of character for anyone there to just let her eat lead so to speak. I was under the impression that what they had learned throughout the various worlds was that they needed to trust and love each other. I'm just surpirised that the only one who did anything was Hanyuu.
I assume the game explains this scene much btter than the anime, can someone help it make sense please?

2. Why does Hanyuu's personality shift so much between the last 3 arcs? Rika's true personality also seems to shift wildly from unbreakable determinator Rika( Like when she kills herself and when she nonchalantly declares that the Atonement chapter was a lost cause so she'll just go the "next" Hinamizawa.)In the next arc(The Massacre Arc)She seems to be almost completely broken mentally. She seems rather like that in Matsuribayashi hen too.
Is it because of their powers falling apart or is it a simple explanation?

If anyone could make sense of all this I would greatly appreciate it!
L in Hinamizawa is offline  
Old 2011-09-23, 21:24   Link #1195
Dante of the Inferno
Turnin' the Tables
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Where dimensions collide...
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by L in Hinamizawa View Post
2. Why does Hanyuu's personality shift so much between the last 3 arcs? Rika's true personality also seems to shift wildly from unbreakable determinator Rika( Like when she kills herself and when she nonchalantly declares that the Atonement chapter was a lost cause so she'll just go the "next" Hinamizawa.)In the next arc(The Massacre Arc)She seems to be almost completely broken mentally. She seems rather like that in Matsuribayashi hen too.
Is it because of their powers falling apart or is it a simple explanation?

If anyone could make sense of all this I would greatly appreciate it!

The best way that I can explain this is to refer to Rika as having 3 different personalities that work in concert: "Sweet Rika-chan" (the persona shown to other characters), Dark Rika aka Frederica Bernkastel (the Macro-level consciousness that remembers all events of all worlds experienced), and Core Rika (the personality that communicates with Hanyuu and personally experiences each world). Core Rika recalls experiences (some, but not all) from Frederica, which allows her to speak as someone with wisdom and knowledge far beyond her years or what "Rika-chan" would display. If we look at the various situations in this context, in becomes clear that Core Rika has tried and been defeated many different times in a multitude of ways. As such, Core Rika is very cautious to reveal herself until Keiichi relates his revelation to her in Tsumihoroboshi-hen. She recognizes that this is truly miraculous, because in no other world has any other person been able to "remember" other worlds' events. However, even with that knowledge, and even though this time Keiichi saved Rena, it didn't matter. Rika was still marked for death (and it's likely that Miyo saw Rena's meltdown as the perfect time to initiate the Terminal Operation), and there would be no way for anyone to help her in time. It's likely that Rika acted cold (enter Dark Rika) towards Rena as a defense mechanism (note that she does this towards Shion and Miyo/Irie) to make it herself seem braver/tougher than she would appear to be. Remember, Core Rika acts almost nothing like Sweet Rika-chan, because that nicer personality is more-or-less an act.

If Core Rika's personality seems more depressed in Minagoroshi-hen, it's because:
a.) The Disaster Awakening Chapter was an anime original arc that helps to better transition the overall story into the Minagoroshi-hen.
b.) She is coming to the realization that she may never escape June 1983. Even after a purely unprecedented set of events, it doesn't change her outcome (or anyone else's) in the slightest.

It's only after Keiichi notices Rika's depression and actively changes the situation, that Rika finds renewed hope in trying to break the cycle. I think that Minagoroshi-hen exposes Core Rika as a very realistic person: a being who is weary of endlessly experiencing happiness and sadness, and then having to mask all of her suffering except to a being that no one else can even comprehend. I don't really sense a feeling of depression coming from Rika during Matsuribayashi-hen, but I DO sense a very real fear. Hanyuu has expressed that this may be the final world that she has enough power to transfer Rika's consciousness to, so she can't act callously or irrationally. If anything, she acts the way you'd expect a little girl to.
__________________
I'm not afraid of tomorrowI'm only scared of myself
Dante of the Inferno is offline  
Old 2011-09-23, 22:27   Link #1196
L in Hinamizawa
I guess Erika would be E?
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: In Hinamizawa trying to solve the Curse of Oyashiro Sama
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante of the Inferno View Post
The best way that I can explain this is to refer to Rika as having 3 different personalities that work in concert: "Sweet Rika-chan" (the persona shown to other characters), Dark Rika aka Frederica Bernkastel (the Macro-level consciousness that remembers all events of all worlds experienced), and Core Rika (the personality that communicates with Hanyuu and personally experiences each world). Core Rika recalls experiences (some, but not all) from Frederica, which allows her to speak as someone with wisdom and knowledge far beyond her years or what "Rika-chan" would display. If we look at the various situations in this context, in becomes clear that Core Rika has tried and been defeated many different times in a multitude of ways. As such, Core Rika is very cautious to reveal herself until Keiichi relates his revelation to her in Tsumihoroboshi-hen. She recognizes that this is truly miraculous, because in no other world has any other person been able to "remember" other worlds' events. However, even with that knowledge, and even though this time Keiichi saved Rena, it didn't matter. Rika was still marked for death (and it's likely that Miyo saw Rena's meltdown as the perfect time to initiate the Terminal Operation), and there would be no way for anyone to help her in time. It's likely that Rika acted cold (enter Dark Rika) towards Rena as a defense mechanism (note that she does this towards Shion and Miyo/Irie) to make it herself seem braver/tougher than she would appear to be. Remember, Core Rika acts almost nothing like Sweet Rika-chan, because that nicer personality is more-or-less an act.

If Core Rika's personality seems more depressed in Minagoroshi-hen, it's because:
a.) The Disaster Awakening Chapter was an anime original arc that helps to better transition the overall story into the Minagoroshi-hen.
b.) She is coming to the realization that she may never escape June 1983. Even after a purely unprecedented set of events, it doesn't change her outcome (or anyone else's) in the slightest.

It's only after Keiichi notices Rika's depression and actively changes the situation, that Rika finds renewed hope in trying to break the cycle. I think that Minagoroshi-hen exposes Core Rika as a very realistic person: a being who is weary of endlessly experiencing happiness and sadness, and then having to mask all of her suffering except to a being that no one else can even comprehend. I don't really sense a feeling of depression coming from Rika during Matsuribayashi-hen, but I DO sense a very real fear. Hanyuu has expressed that this may be the final world that she has enough power to transfer Rika's consciousness to, so she can't act callously or irrationally. If anything, she acts the way you'd expect a little girl to.
That makes much more sense! Thank you!
Now that I think about it, it finally adds up.

The only thing that I still can't figure out is the final showdown with Takano.
When she pulls the gun on them(Honestly why did Okonogi be so nice to her? LOL)
The Club didn't really do much. I'm assuming that they were in effect trying to talk Takano down, I'm just surprised they let Mion take point in front of them like she did. Obviously they were trying to save everyone, I just don't get what it was that they were doing. XD If that makes sense.
L in Hinamizawa is offline  
Old 2011-09-24, 20:37   Link #1197
Kantoku
見ぬが花
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by L in Hinamizawa View Post
That makes much more sense! Thank you!
Now that I think about it, it finally adds up.

The only thing that I still can't figure out is the final showdown with Takano.
When she pulls the gun on them(Honestly why did Okonogi be so nice to her? LOL)
The Club didn't really do much. I'm assuming that they were in effect trying to talk Takano down, I'm just surprised they let Mion take point in front of them like she did. Obviously they were trying to save everyone, I just don't get what it was that they were doing. XD If that makes sense.
In the VN all of them heavily objected to Mion's stance of taking the bullet, especially Keiichi, but in the end Mion declared that nothing would make her happier than to protect her friends. I don't think they were trying to move Takano with words; Takano just needed to use the bullet on someone as last-minute revenge, and Mion offered to sacrifice herself.
Kantoku is offline  
Old 2011-09-24, 22:55   Link #1198
Dante of the Inferno
Turnin' the Tables
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Where dimensions collide...
Age: 26
The bullet scene is more of a symbolic confrontation than anything. As we all know, it was finally Hanyuu that came forward to protect everyone, including Mion. However, the "Magic Bullet" played out a little differently in the VN. There, as Miyo fired the gun, Keiichi's will to save everyone became so great, that he (the "Final Piece") obtained Hanyuu's power: time manipulation. With that, he managed to effectively move Hanyuu (or the bullet) off of a collision course, thus saving Hanyuu. Whether or not that seems plausible, using Occom's Razor to decide between a god diverting a bullet or a boy obtaining the power of god to stop time really isn't going to do much good. Remember, this is supposed to be the actual miracle of the story.

If you're wondering why Miyo didn't just use more bullets to try and kill everyone, then you should again consider the significance of this scene. Miyo has lived her life thinking that an iron will can (and will) get you everything you want. However, in order to defeat Miyo, Rika had to crush that will completely, since it's obvious that Miyo simply would not stop otherwise. Miyo (little miss headshot) failing to shoot a sitting duck AT 15 FEET AWAY proves that she is not even allowed a cheap parting shot. That's what makes Miyo seem all the more tragic. Her whole life has been working towards the validation of Dr. Takano (and her) theories, and literally everything has been taken from her in less than a single day (which is likely the exact reason why Okonogi would be "nice" enough to allow her to kill herself than be taken by the Banken).
__________________
I'm not afraid of tomorrowI'm only scared of myself
Dante of the Inferno is offline  
Old 2011-09-25, 12:05   Link #1199
Kantoku
見ぬが花
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante of the Inferno View Post
The bullet scene is more of a symbolic confrontation than anything. As we all know, it was finally Hanyuu that came forward to protect everyone, including Mion. However, the "Magic Bullet" played out a little differently in the VN. There, as Miyo fired the gun, Keiichi's will to save everyone became so great, that he (the "Final Piece") obtained Hanyuu's power: time manipulation. With that, he managed to effectively move Hanyuu (or the bullet) off of a collision course, thus saving Hanyuu. Whether or not that seems plausible, using Occom's Razor to decide between a god diverting a bullet or a boy obtaining the power of god to stop time really isn't going to do much good. Remember, this is supposed to be the actual miracle of the story.

If you're wondering why Miyo didn't just use more bullets to try and kill everyone, then you should again consider the significance of this scene. Miyo has lived her life thinking that an iron will can (and will) get you everything you want. However, in order to defeat Miyo, Rika had to crush that will completely, since it's obvious that Miyo simply would not stop otherwise. Miyo (little miss headshot) failing to shoot a sitting duck AT 15 FEET AWAY proves that she is not even allowed a cheap parting shot. That's what makes Miyo seem all the more tragic. Her whole life has been working towards the validation of Dr. Takano (and her) theories, and literally everything has been taken from her in less than a single day (which is likely the exact reason why Okonogi would be "nice" enough to allow her to kill herself than be taken by the Banken).
I thought in Matsuribayashi-hen, it was Rika instead of Keiichi whose will became so strong and gained her own few seconds of time manipulation when Hanyuu's barrier couldn't block the bullet? Rika walked over to take the bullet, and then grasped it with her hands, thus having the bullet's trajectory path disappear altogether, didn't she? I might have to go back and reread the last part to find that exact scene if I'm wrong though, it's been awhile.
Kantoku is offline  
Old 2011-09-25, 17:03   Link #1200
Orophin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kantoku View Post
I might have to go back and reread the last part to find that exact scene if I'm wrong though, it's been awhile.
No, you're right. I really don't know where Dante got that from. Miotsukushi-hen, perhaps?
Orophin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.