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Old 2006-10-17, 17:39   Link #121
Arimfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shounen View Post
So why make it smaller when we can keep at the same size, but with even better quailty. Than making the file smaller and having the same quaility as the XviD version.
Why are you asking this of me?
I'm NOT in the camp that doesn't care about quality... In case you didn't notice.

edit: I think you misunderstood me. I was only explaining to him why and when filesize CAN be compared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harukalover
(And softsubs are superior to hardsubs at least in my opinion)
*Agrees*
I definitely prefer softsubs as well.
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Last edited by Arimfe; 2006-10-17 at 17:51.
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Old 2006-10-17, 17:49   Link #122
Shounen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harukalover View Post
Probably because they usually use MKV for there H264 releases and AVI for XviD. MKV supports softsubs so they take advantage of it. Technically they should probably just do XviD in MKV and H264 in MKV as well if they are willing to do softsubs. Perhaps they don't because of fear of leechers being afraid of MKV's.

Though there could be a second reason. I tried to get a group of mine to convert to MKV only for it's release format. I was quickly shot down by the founder cause she wouldn't be able to directly burn it for her DVD player if it was in MKV only.
And for this reason I kinda made fun of most groups like AHQ, i dident have the dvd's of this Star Ocean EX so i downloaded theirs (dvd rips that is), when i directly saw that they used softsubs and 2 audio tracks i quickly ripped the subs modified em to ssa's (with some minor edits like font, size colour etc) and and cut the "dubbed" audio track, and then embeeded the ssa to into this mkv release. All this was made cuz some friends of mine werent able to get the original audio, or see the subs at all. Quick and easy

So I made a version of my own, by using some others stuff. So I also had to make some other things like fixing some frames to cut out anything that had to do with them ^_^

But of course i respect other groups by not doing anything like this again.

Again this was an XviD version, all eps. An since it wasent for me, I ddient really care that much.
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Old 2006-10-17, 17:54   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shounen View Post
B]offtopic:[/B]
So why dont they embeed the subs too, in their h.264 releases -.-
"And some do, some dont"
There are 3 main reasons for not embedding subs.
  • Embedded subtitles interfere with video quality by adding distortion around the words.
  • Embedded subtitles require an additional encoding step. Some speed groups (stares at Eclipse) make the process faster by encoding their final video before the subtitles are complete. Then the subtitle stream is simply added to the video container.
  • Some people like the ability to turn off their subtites so that they can make higer quality avatars or AMVs from them.
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Old 2006-10-17, 17:56   Link #124
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And for this reason I kinda made fun of most groups like AHQ,
Why make fun of AHQ? I mean they get dvd's and rip out the original Video + Japanese Audio and English Audio and then sub and then mux it into MKV which is the only Container that supports Softsubs and furthermore a good Dual Audio I suppose. Thus why MKV...so i really don't get the point of making fun of em.
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Old 2006-10-17, 17:56   Link #125
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What a miserable thread.

It's pointless arguing over filesizes, simply because of the fact of how diverse and stubbon the scene has become.

You have your regular fansubbers (and perhaps some old schoolers), who will simply do things as they have always done. Work in general with TV rips and aim for the same sort of quality they have trundled along with for such a long time, but since the encoder is more efficient, they can lower filesizes and keep the same quality. No big deal, you aren't losing out on what you had before, and generally if your ASP encodes are of a good standard you wouldn't make hugely worthwhile gains anyway. It's diminishing returns, which is why people have always capped XviD at Q2 (since >Q2 was considered wastage). In a similar vein, I consider >Q18 H.264 wastage; that's not to say I would never use it, just not for fansubs (one of my AMVs was encoded at a target bitrate and it probably ranges in the 16-18 range).

Quality is important, but not of any great desperation since fansubs traditionally are intended to tide people over until an official release is available (and so comes in the part about fansubs not replacing DVDs etc). Some sense of importance is put on "compatability" so as to reach as wide an audience as practicable, which is partially why ASP was stuck into AVI (DivX being a big "helping" hand), since it meant leechers need only update their video decoder. Some of these traditional fansub groups have moved to H.264 + AAC in MP4 which is a step in the right direction away from AVI, but some compatability remains (software support is very good, only thing that lets people down is having computers that are what one might describe as "old").


You also have your DVD rippers. I don't know the motivation behind DVD rippers, but I assume it's to replace the R1's (presumably they don't like how dub companies simply dub it and charge full whack for inferior A/V quality) and/or possibly the R2's. Of course they work with DVDs with no other focus than quality. The aim of the game is to get the best looking encode often at the expense of filesize. This can also extend to mixing and matching the best codecs available at the time, which has lead to some fruity files in the past (such as an instadeath MKV with LTP-AAC, OGM files, VfW H.264, AAC in AVI). I have no doubt that as soon as Snow creeps past x264 (which it no doubt will do, time/interest permitting), they will jump ship and forget H.264 even existed, just like we have with ASP . Nothing detrimental, just pointing out that this behaviour tends not to happen (as much) in fansubbing. It's also no secret that DVD rippers have taken up fansub encoding, which brings me to my next point.

Now I've noticed two divides; one saying "Same quality, lower filesize" and the other "Extra quality, higher filesize, and a crappy XviD for good measure". It's funny how of the people voicing their opinions, few are suggesting the comprimise of "Better quality, same filesize". I won't insult you by pointing out which of the DVD rippers or fansubbers fall into which category, but that seems to be the divide here. Both scenes are too well rooted in their methods to listen to what the other people are saying, which is why this thread is going exactly nowhere. If the fansubbers want to put out 86-140MB TV rips, and the DVD rippers, 233-340MB TV/DVD rips, then so be it. It's a hobby, it takes a damn long time to encode so like it or lump it.

Now before anyone pipes up with derogatory comments like "lol all fansub encoders suck" or "dvd encoders are evil", I'll just say that I'm saying it like it is. We're all (for the most part) videophiles believe me, it just boils down to different requirements, habbits, intended usage and audience.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:02   Link #126
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe View Post
I think you are the one to be congratulated.

If your failings were to be true, then why don't we see any fansubs at 20MB or under?

Higher video bitrate(filesize) allows for higher video quality. Why is this difficult to understand?
Wow, did you even read TheFluff's comment? Or any of the thread? You just earned an award for failure to read. I can make an encode 100mb with 1 codec, or 500mb with another, and they will look THE SAME. I can likewise, with certain series and the same codec, make a 150mb encode and a 250 mb encode, and yet again, they will look the same.

You can graph the file size vs the quality and you will reach two points: 1 where a size increase has no effect on the quality (flat line) and 2 where a size increase starts having almost no effect on the quality (nearly flat line). Encodes should lie somewhere between #1 and #2 in size.

Quote:
At this point, a comparison in filesize isn't pointless. With same codecs, same encoders/settings/filters, same raws, it should be obvious which one has the advantage, a 100 MB encode or a 200 MB encode.
It completely depends on the series. With a dark series like Monster or Witch Hunter Robin, that 200mb encode probably looked no better. With a super bright action series, then it probably made a difference.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:06   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
I have no doubt that as soon as Snow creeps past x264 (which it no doubt will do, time/interest permitting), they will jump ship and forget H.264 even existed, just like we have with ASP .
Snow is still being developed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
If the fansubbers want to put out 86-140MB TV rips, and the DVD rippers, 233-340MB TV/DVD rips, then so be it. It's a hobby, it takes a damn long time to encode so like it or lump it.
Amen.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:08   Link #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
What a miserable thread.

It's pointless arguing over filesizes, simply because of the fact of how diverse and stubbon the scene has become.

You have your regular fansubbers (and perhaps some old schoolers), who will simply do things as they have always done. Work in general with TV rips and aim for the same sort of quality they have trundled along with for such a long time, but since the encoder is more efficient, they can lower filesizes and keep the same quality. No big deal, you aren't losing out on what you had before, and generally if your ASP encodes are of a good standard you wouldn't make hugely worthwhile gains anyway. It's diminishing returns, which is why people have always capped XviD at Q2 (since >Q2 was considered wastage). In a similar vein, I consider >Q18 H.264 wastage; that's not to say I would never use it, just not for fansubs (one of my AMVs was encoded at a target bitrate and it probably ranges in the 16-18 range).
I mentioned earlier that it's "trend" like and accustomed too. But I would say that anywhere from 18~22 "could" be perfectly acceptable in some cases. And i know that someone out there could agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
Quality is important, but not of any great desperation since fansubs traditionally are intended to tide people over until an official release is available (and so comes in the part about fansubs not replacing DVDs etc). Some sense of importance is put on "compatability" so as to reach as wide an audience as practicable, which is partially why ASP was stuck into AVI (DivX being a big "helping" hand), since it meant leechers need only update their video decoder. Some of these traditional fansub groups have moved to H.264 + AAC in MP4 which is a step in the right direction away from AVI, but some compatability remains (software support is very good, only thing that lets people down is having computers that are what one might describe as "old").
Well.." Most " groups that use h.264 in MP4 usually have an Avi or an mkv version(mkv making it no better for old comps) but IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE EVERYBODY so people who in which computers are rather old so they have to stick with what they have or suck it up and get a ew computer plain and simple. ASP is compression wise acceptable due to it's compatibility as you know and even being stuck on its main Avi format with DivX or anything -- it's a pleaser not neccessarily quality-wise but gives everyone a decent chance to atleast watch something.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
You also have your DVD rippers. I don't know the motivation behind DVD rippers, but I assume it's to replace the R1's (presumably they don't like how dub companies simply dub it and charge full whack for inferior A/V quality) and/or possibly the R2's. Of course they work with DVDs with no other focus than quality. The aim of the game is to get the best looking encode often at the expense of filesize. This can also extend to mixing and matching the best codecs available at the time, which has lead to some fruity files in the past (such as an instadeath MKV with LTP-AAC, OGM files, VfW H.264, AAC in AVI). I have no doubt that as soon as Snow creeps past x264 (which it no doubt will do, time/interest permitting), they will jump ship and forget H.264 even existed, just like we have with ASP . Nothing detrimental, just pointing out that this behaviour tends not to happen (as much) in fansubbing. It's also no secret that DVD rippers have taken up fansub encoding, which brings me to my next point.

Now I've noticed two divides; one saying "Same quality, lower filesize" and the other "Extra quality, higher filesize, and a crappy XviD for good measure". It's funny how of the people voicing their opinions, few are suggesting the comprimise of "Better quality, same filesize". I won't insult you by pointing out which of the DVD rippers or fansubbers fall into which category, but that seems to be the divide here. Both scenes are too well rooted in their methods to listen to what the other people are saying, which is why this thread is going exactly nowhere. If the fansubbers want to put out 86-140MB TV rips, and the DVD rippers, 233-340MB TV/DVD rips, then so be it. It's a hobby, it takes a damn long time to encode so like it or lump it.

Now before anyone pipes up with derogatory comments like "lol all fansub encoders suck" or "dvd encoders are evil", I'll just say that I'm saying it like it is. We're all (for the most part) videophiles believe me, it just boils down to different requirements, habbits, intended usage and audience.
All a hobby like fansubbing adn if they like to do it then so be it..not like anyone is asking em too. But I will say fansubbers can pump out the same quality as DVD's at a much lower filesize than 340mb and briefly 233mb w/ h.264 in mkv/mp4
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:08   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
Embedded subtitles interfere with video quality by allowing distortion around the words.
Again were talking about low quailty fansubs (at all) not some dvd rips. If you get the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
Embedded subtitles require an additional encoding step. Some speed groups (stares at Eclipse) make the process faster by encoding their final video before the subtitles are complete. Then the subtitle stream is simply added to the video container.
muxing or an reencode again?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
Some people like the ability to turn off their subtites so that they can make higer quality avatars or AMVs from them.
This has really nothing to do with fansubing....we have raws/R2's for that...And amv's is really nothing that I will ever go into. Or els we can screw the whole idea of music artists.
To tell you the truth. I would like to know many of those millions of Amv's, that those not contain english/spanish/german or french music at all. Give me an example.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:17   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchikatsu View Post
(mkv making it no better for old comps)
Huh? It doesn't really matter whether it's in MKV, AVI, or an MP4. CPU usage differences are probably close to nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shounen View Post
muxing or an reencode again?...
Only a remux unless they need to change karaokes or TSing that needed to be hardsubbed.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:23   Link #131
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If people want to make AMVs, they should use the raws if it's not possible to use the DVDs, not some regurgitated 3rd generation fansub encode. 2nd gen is bad enough, but in some cases it's the best you will get.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:24   Link #132
Shounen
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Originally Posted by Harukalover View Post
Huh? It doesn't really matter whether it's in MKV, AVI, or an MP4. CPU usage differences are probably close to nothing.
The AVI has a slighty bigger file header. Making it slow to start upp for some media players, like the one that i use for my PSP >.>
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:34   Link #133
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Starks shut the fuck up bitch if you aren't going to further help the thread or stay on topic with the mother fucking thread. Otherwise go back to sucking it like you do in lots of threads. If you must be a bitch about it gtfo.

Anyways CPU usage technically isn't what i was getting at but why having to waste time for ur comp trying to decode h.264 in an mkv or mp4 and further about cpu usage wasting time on ffdshow or CoreAvc to render/decode. But then that's theoretical.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:40   Link #134
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This requires another post:

Spoiler:


GMT-5 10/17/06
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:43   Link #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchikatsu View Post
Starks shut the fuck up bitch if you aren't going to further help the thread or stay on topic with the mother fucking thread. Otherwise go back to sucking it like you do in lots of threads. If you must be a bitch about it gtfo.

Anyways CPU usage technically isn't what i was getting at but why having to waste time for ur comp trying to decode h.264 in an mkv or mp4 and further about cpu usage wasting time on ffdshow or CoreAvc to render/decode. But then that's theoretical.
(Did I ever say I was exempt?)

Listening to encoders bitch and moan using speculative reasoning doesn't help in properly answering the question this topic was created for.
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Old 2006-10-17, 18:46   Link #136
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The topic was made as a question and there's no technically no right answer to this and thus it turns into a discussion. Whereas Opinion is expressed on said topic or in relating to the topic in order show or represent it as such. Not to just talk about people and how they are now is it?
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Old 2006-10-17, 19:00   Link #137
Shounen
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Ok, since i really suck at finding free hosting sites...
http://www.filefactory.com/file/df1574/
h.264 and AVI, what did you know?
bitrate is at fairly 5000kb/s~....

Did it kill your Persacom, or did it just not play at all

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Old 2006-10-17, 19:05   Link #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shounen View Post
Ok, since i really suck at finding free hosting sites...
http://www.filefactory.com/file/df1574/
h.264 and AVI, what did you know?
bitrate is at fairly 5000kb/s~....

Did it kill your Persacom, or did it just not play at all

It reminds me of foolish n00b encoders in the fansub community. *cough*P2A*cough*
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Old 2006-10-17, 19:08   Link #139
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Pointing fingers again Starks wow *cough* P2a *cough* sucks *cough*

and 5000kb/s bitrate o_o hmm...
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Old 2006-10-17, 19:13   Link #140
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The x264 VfW is the work of the devil.
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