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Old 2008-11-26, 11:37   Link #741
xoxobleach
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Originally Posted by Mirakuru View Post
That makes sense.. but then why are Zero & Ichiru always referred to as exceptions? When Kaname first met Ichiru, I think he said something along the lines of that being his first encounter with a living hunter twin. So I think they were both able to escape a doomed fate.. at least until they grew older. >.<
i found it weird cos havent kaname met zero isnt zero a twin haha!

anw i think the hunter president is a male...
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Old 2008-11-26, 16:44   Link #742
freedomrulez
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Whether the things Kaname does are justified doesn't mean I have to like his actions. And I wouldn't say Zero is anywhere close to a "simple character." Yes, we do see more of his character so we have a much better sense of who he is than Kaname. Kaname is more of a mystery, but mysterious doesn't equal complex. Once the mystery is broken I doubt he'll be anywhere as complex as Zero who has a torrid of emotions towards many issues. Kaname is not evil but at times he is not likable in my mind either.
Well, you can't expect to please everyone in this world, can you? My purpose was not to convince people that Kaname's actions are "good", but pointed towards those who make false judgement on his actions, saying he is evil in a sense that he will do anything to achieve his goal (for instance; killing Shizuka, wiping out the council..etc). I would like to have more clarification regarding why you dislike his actions, instead of laying out blatant reasons. From the very beginning up till now, Zero has been driven by revenge toward the purebloods (Sasuke anyone?), however with the cure by his hand (Yuuki I mean). This basically sums up his character. Mysterious characters are designed to be mystery throughtout the series. This characterization never gets broken despite their equalities with the other charactecters in the series (the amount of screen time they get). However, the screen time doesn't answer the mystery, because the more you see of that character, the more questions arise. Kaname is one of the prime example of a portrayal of a mysterious person. Kaname is not as complex as Zero? explain. When a character is shrouded in mystery and unfathomable, his complexity is infinite.

Ofcourse you have to take one step further to appreciate Kaname. When you look at Kaname the same way as you look at Zero, you perceive them differently. Because Kaname was born a pureblood vampire, hence his behavior and actions tend to reflect toward what he is.

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Yes, I can definitely say otherwise to him committing Suicide if Yuki wasn't there after his parents died! Zero was not suicidal! The things he did were a natural self-defense against deep emotional pain but that does not come anywhere close to suicidal. From I believe if he had been in a environment outside of vampires he would have been much better of. What they did to him was akin to when a child is bitten by a dog, throwing him a cage with a bunch of other dogs to make him get over his fear. Even if those dogs are gentle his fear and hate will just grow more by being around them.
Enlighten me here, but I've failed to understand how cutting youself (and scratching till bleed) is a natural self-defense. This is actually a mental disorder, that people need help with, caused by intense emotinal pain. Not to mention that its a shallow way to deal with your pain. If Yuuki weren't there to take good care him, he probably would be dead by now. He even said so himself, that he is living only for her sake now (because Yuuki asked him to to live for her). If he had been placed in a different location where there is no existance of vampires, things wouldn't have looked any better for him, in fact he probably would have killed himself with no purpose to live for or he might have started to pursue his revenge and get himself killed in the process. It's not like it made any difference, living at the Cross Acadamy, before he became aware of the presense of vampires. On the contrary, he stopped cutting himself after Kaname came into his existance. Ironic isn't it? You would think that Kaname made his life even miserable, but I bet you will be proven otherwise at the end of the manga.

Here you are comparing "dogs" with "vampires", declaring their specie as some bad monsterous leeches that feed on human's blood. Throwing Zero into his own ideal group, vampire hunters, will not serve him any good either. Perhaps, it was best to put him in a place where he is surrounded by vampires in order to overcome his prejudice against pureblood vampires. Of course if he had fully given himself as a hunter, he would be slaying vampires regardless of their nature by the request of H.A. Had Zero not been with Yuuki, who is a pureblood, he wouldn't have given a second thought to pull the trigger on Yuuki. May be, he has come to realize a little that not all vampires are bad afterall, though someone still needs to knock some sense really hard into his thick skull.

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Whether Kaname had a lot of suffering in his past is inconsequential. The past is over and can't be changed but the fact that his actions cause Zero pain and he is well aware of it, doesn't make me take any sort of sympathy for his possible past suffering. Kaname also seemed to angst over every time Yuki was shown being close to Zero. At least Zero has better reasons to angst over things. I'm not a fan of silent brooding type. If Kaname also had the "strength to live under any circumstance" he wouldn't have gone to sleep for many generations. That's just a way to run away from a situation.
Somehow I get the feeling that Kaname's past is overlooked, but in Zero's case, it is justified. Past is never insignificant as the present is the reflection of past events. I myself don't sympathize Kaname, nor do I think he ever needed such a pity that slows him down along his profession. But, what he needs is though understanding. Is Kaname really the cause of his pain, or is it something he inflicted on himself? Zero is part of Yuuki's pain, Yuuki is part of Kaname's pain, and vise versa. Have you forgotten the first time when Zero met Kaname, he viciously stabbed Kaname with a knife? Nonetheless, Kaname told Yuuki to not to worry about him, and it is Zero who is suffering. All Kaname asks Zero to do is to protect Yuuki, though he constantly has to remind Zero by the means of what you call, manipulation. He had to compell Zero to drink his blood to temperarily stop him from falling into Level E vampire, so that he could stay by Yuuki's side to protect her. Sometimes, you have to go hard despite it being harsh, which is what Kaname did/does to Zero as stubborn as he is. May be it is part of Kaname's inherited trait, and having lived as a Vampire King in his former life, I would be damned if he didn't know how and when to ensnare his enemies if neccessary.

I also think you are confusing jealousy with angst. Kaname even said that he is jealous of Zero for being able to stay by her side. Given the circumstances, he had to forgo his girl for the sake of her protection. And you must be kidding yourself if you think Kaname literraly put himself into sleep for several ages. If that were really the case, Rido wouldn't have needed to give his blood to awaken him, let alone needing a new body to exhibit the soul (spaculation at this point). You don't think he chained himself after his slumber, and god knows why the crest was used.

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I also disagree with the statement that Kaname doesn't need someone to have a purpose. He most certainly does and that person is Yuki, just like Zero. The key difference is that Zero doesn't seek happiness for himself just for her and seeks to end his curse existence after but Kaname on the other hand wishes to live on with Yuki. If Yuki died Kaname would have a similar death wish that Zero has now.
Kaname's purpose of coming to Cross Acadamy is not just to protect Yuuki, but also to get what he wants and to retern a favour. He made it clear in the second volume. Even Yuuki figured that out in chapter 41 ("...please go and do the things that only you can accomplish"). He wanted equality and peace between vampires and humans (even in the past). That is his primary goal, but Yuuki is his lifemate. Though, I agree that both Kaname and Zero would put thier life at stake to protect Yuuki, I highly doubt Kaname will lose his life over Yuuki's death. It is not like his character. Kaname was able to endure the pain of his foster parents death. Most definately he lost his real parents in the past too if he had one, that is. Did Kaname lose his mind or self-control? He knows he has responsibilities and need to be strong if he wants to live on with all the people craving for his blood.

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Once again I don't in anyway hate Kaname but Zero makes this manga great and he's who I sympathize with much more. And I don't want to bang Kaname so that pretty much 90 percent of his appeal down the gutter.
I guess it all comes down to one's opinion. Personally speaking, if it weren't for Kaname, this manga would be like those stereotypical shoujo mangas out there. I don't prefer a character due to sympathy. ^ ^
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Old 2008-11-26, 18:58   Link #743
Slick_rick
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by freedomrulez View Post
Well, you can't expect to please everyone in this world, can you? My purpose was not to convince people that Kaname's actions are "good", but pointed towards those who make false judgement on his actions, saying he is evil in a sense that he will do anything to achieve his goal (for instance; killing Shizuka, wiping out the council..etc). I would like to have more clarification regarding why you dislike his actions, instead of laying out blatant reasons. From the very beginning up till now, Zero has been driven by revenge toward the purebloods (Sasuke anyone?), however with the cure by his hand (Yuuki I mean). This basically sums up his character. Mysterious characters are designed to be mystery throughtout the series. This characterization never gets broken despite their equalities with the other charactecters in the series (the amount of screen time they get). However, the screen time doesn't answer the mystery, because the more you see of that character, the more questions arise. Kaname is one of the prime example of a portrayal of a mysterious person. Kaname is not as complex as Zero? explain. When a character is shrouded in mystery and unfathomable, his complexity is infinite.

Ofcourse you have to take one step further to appreciate Kaname. When you look at Kaname the same way as you look at Zero, you perceive them differently. Because Kaname was born a pureblood vampire, hence his behavior and actions tend to reflect toward what he is.
Zero has never been driven my revenge actually. In most cases he seems to want to avoid all contact with any vampire if possible. He most certainly doesn't like them nor trust them but the only time he actually set out for revenge was against Shizuka after he bit Yuki and was in turmoil. You fail to grasp Zero character. He not bloodthirsty at all and if he could never again have to deal with a Pureblood in his life he'd be ecstatic. Yuki a cure? GTFO! More like a poison.

A guy you don't know is standing in the street staring at the building for many hours. He does this each day and you don't know why. This is a mysterious character. You don't know what he is up to but that doesn't add any complexity to his true character. One day you go asked him you talk to him and find out why he does it. The guy is unemployed and has not better to do so each day he goes there to hang out. Mystery solved. Not a complex person at all. The reasoning behind mysterious persons actions are similar to that of a normal person the only difference is that you, the reader, are not privy to the information. The fact that you see Zero actions and thoughts way more than Kaname and still aren't able to grasp his character shows how complex he is. The complexity of a mysterious person is not infinite. It like saying a machine is infinitely complex because you haven't opened it. Until you open it you don't know.

I appreciate Kaname character. I don't know where you got the idea that I didn't. As for the actions I dislike I could get specific but I won't as it would get long. I generally dislike when he manipulates people, which he has done on numerous occasions. That I understand that his manipulations are generally justified in his mind I don't like them. His actions actually contribute more to Zero hate and create a dangerous situation in the school with the unknowing day class.


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Enlighten me here, but I've failed to understand how cutting youself (and scratching till bleed) is a natural self-defense. This is actually a mental disorder, that people need help with, caused by intense emotinal pain. Not to mention that its a shallow way to deal with your pain. If Yuuki weren't there to take good care him, he probably would be dead by now. He even said so himself, that he is living only for her sake now (because Yuuki asked him to to live for her). If he had been placed in a different location where there is no existance of vampires, things wouldn't have looked any better for him, in fact he probably would have killed himself with no purpose to live for or he might have started to pursue his revenge and get himself killed in the process. It's not like it made any difference, living at the Cross Acadamy, before he became aware of the presense of vampires. On the contrary, he stopped cutting himself after Kaname came into his existance. Ironic isn't it? You would think that Kaname made his life even miserable, but I bet you will be proven otherwise at the end of the manga.
Sure, I'll enlighten you. People have natural self-defense when it comes to emotional pain. Sometimes people will block out memories of traumatic events or even change the events around to cope with the memories. Other times when unable to forget or they constantly are thinking about something painful they will resort to inflicting wounds on themselves. It is not a mental disorder in anyway. You will often have to take counseling to resolve such an issue, often times for years. It is far from shallow to deal with it in such a way. People often wrongfully judge someone who does this as weak but people fail to grasp that person's pain. You yourself would not know how you would react if something like that happened to you and every person would react different. To judge a person when yourself could never grasp the pain they are in is extremely unfair. People like to believe they are stronger than they actually are and look down on others.

I'll repeat again Zero is not suicidal! He was living for Yuki sake but that doesn't mean he was suicidal. He accepted his fate to fall to level E and die. Even now we nor he are sure if that fate is avoided or can ever be. I don't see a problem with him seeking revenge and dying in such a quest. Everyone dies sometime.

Wow. You have some crazy logic. So just because at the time the that Zero stopping hurting himself Kaname also appeared means that Kaname was the one that influenced the change right? I think the solar eclipse the day had just as much to do with the change as that. I also think Kaname will come out smelling like a bed of roses at the end of the manga doesn't mean I have to believe the mangaka take on certain events.

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Here you are comparing "dogs" with "vampires", declaring their specie as some bad monsterous leeches that feed on human's blood. Throwing Zero into his own ideal group, vampire hunters, will not serve him any good either. Perhaps, it was best to put him in a place where he is surrounded by vampires in order to overcome his prejudice against pureblood vampires. Of course if he had fully given himself as a hunter, he would be slaying vampires regardless of their nature by the request of H.A. Had Zero not been with Yuuki, who is a pureblood, he wouldn't have given a second thought to pull the trigger on Yuuki. May be, he has come to realize a little that not all vampires are bad afterall, though someone still needs to knock some sense really hard into his thick skull.
Zero needed to get away from Vampire entirely. Put him in cross academy didn't seem to change his opinion of vampires any and instead he seems to hate them even more now! I don't know what people find so wrong with him slaying vampires. It been going on for probably thousands of years and god forbid that the ones he kill a poor innocent vampire. I wish he didn't give a second thought to killing Yuki now and commit to his goal of ridding the world of purebloods. But Zero in the end is a much nicer guy than me and that's the reason the mangaka can abuse him so much and not have him go wild killing everyone.



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Somehow I get the feeling that Kaname's past is overlooked, but in Zero's case, it is justified. Past is never insignificant as the present is the reflection of past events. I myself don't sympathize Kaname, nor do I think he ever needed such a pity that slows him down along his profession. But, what he needs is though understanding. Is Kaname really the cause of his pain, or is it something he inflicted on himself? Zero is part of Yuuki's pain, Yuuki is part of Kaname's pain, and vise versa. Have you forgotten the first time when Zero met Kaname, he viciously stabbed Kaname with a knife? Nonetheless, Kaname told Yuuki to not to worry about him, and it is Zero who is suffering. All Kaname asks Zero to do is to protect Yuuki, though he constantly has to remind Zero by the means of what you call, manipulation. He had to compell Zero to drink his blood to temperarily stop him from falling into Level E vampire, so that he could stay by Yuuki's side to protect her. Sometimes, you have to go hard despite it being harsh, which is what Kaname did/does to Zero as stubborn as he is. May be it is part of Kaname's inherited trait, and having lived as a Vampire King in his former life, I would be damned if he didn't know how and when to ensnare his enemies if neccessary.
The knife encounter was entirely Cross fault. You take a child into your home who has been through such a traumatic event and then unexpectedly have one of the causes of that trauma show up then you are a horrible guardian. Yes, Kaname didn't kill Zero's parents but the unexpected arrival of him should have been known to be traumatic to someone in the state of Zero. Should I give Kaname a cookie for understanding the situation he placed Zero in? What Zero did was very understandable for someone who had his parents murder by a vampire and then have a vampire appear out of the blue. Cross is a horrible parent/guardian/person. Like I said I grasp why Kaname does what he does but I don't like it. He pushed Zero to his limit and Zero is justified in my mind in wasting him. He will? Probably not.

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I also think you are confusing jealousy with angst. Kaname even said that he is jealous of Zero for being able to stay by her side. Given the circumstances, he had to forgo his girl for the sake of her protection. And you must be kidding yourself if you think Kaname literraly put himself into sleep for several ages. If that were really the case, Rido wouldn't have needed to give his blood to awaken him, let alone needing a new body to exhibit the soul (spaculation at this point). You don't think he chained himself after his slumber, and god knows why the crest was used.
Angst and jealously go hand in hand. That's obvious. In chapter 43, Kaname mentions awakening from a slumber that lasted many ages. This might just be a mistranslation but I'll take it as probable until shown otherwise. I don't know if you're mixing in Anime junk into a manga thread but I don't remember those scenes in the manga.


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Kaname's purpose of coming to Cross Acadamy is not just to protect Yuuki, but also to get what he wants and to retern a favour. He made it clear in the second volume. Even Yuuki figured that out in chapter 41 ("...please go and do the things that only you can accomplish"). He wanted equality and peace between vampires and humans (even in the past). That is his primary goal, but Yuuki is his lifemate. Though, I agree that both Kaname and Zero would put thier life at stake to protect Yuuki, I highly doubt Kaname will lose his life over Yuuki's death. It is not like his character. Kaname was able to endure the pain of his foster parents death. Most definately he lost his real parents in the past too if he had one, that is. Did Kaname lose his mind or self-control? He knows he has responsibilities and need to be strong if he wants to live on with all the people craving for his blood.
That's a false statement. We don't know what Kaname felt in the past about equality and peace. All that we know is his parents were the leaders of the pacifist movement. I don't think you grasp much of Kaname character if you don't think he go haywire if she died. He place his entire happiness in being with her. We don't know what Kaname did it the past. All we know is that he sealed himself away after he became disillusioned with the world. The actions he is carrying out now seem to be the drastic actions he stopped himself from doing a long time ago.

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I guess it all comes down to one's opinion. Personally speaking, if it weren't for Kaname, this manga would be like those stereotypical shoujo mangas out there. I don't prefer a character due to sympathy. ^ ^
Is that suppose to be funny? A dark, handsome and mysterious man is as ubiquitous of a character as you can find in shoujo manga.

Exactly my point. To sympathize with a character you have to relate to that character on a emotional level. The fact that you don't prefer a character due you can sympathize with shows your focus is shallow. You only see the outside and unable to connect with the real person. Like I said 90 percent of Kaname appeal is only in his outward appearance and the fact he is "mysterious".

By the way by sympathize I did not mean pity which is what you most likely misinterpreted my statement to mean.
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Old 2008-11-27, 02:51   Link #744
freedomrulez
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Zero has never been driven my revenge actually. In most cases he seems to want to avoid all contact with any vampire if possible. He most certainly doesn't like them nor trust them but the only time he actually set out for revenge was against Shizuka after he bit Yuki and was in turmoil. You fail to grasp Zero character. He not bloodthirsty at all and if he could never again have to deal with a Pureblood in his life he'd be ecstatic. Yuki a cure? GTFO! More like a poison.
What does being bloodthirsty have to do with revenge in the first place? His eyes were always filled with hatred, which is what Shizuka wanted to see. What Shizuika saw in Zero was herself, driven by revenge that led her to wipe out the Kiryuus. Now his madness got the best of him by wanting to destroy all the purebloods. Zero always wanted to kill that woman, but he couldn't due to master-servant bond they shared between each other. Only after he witnessed Yuuki inclining to offer her blood to Shizuka, he became strong and shot his own leg to get out of the bond, allowing him to shoot Shizuka. Zero said he's lived only for that day, to kill her. It was Yuuki who was slowing him down from sinking into a despair. And you call her a poison? let me speak on behalf of Zero, "because Yuuki was there, I might've been able to live on". I failed to grasp his character? please.

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...Mystery solved. Not a complex person at all. The reasoning behind mysterious persons actions are similar to that of a normal person the only difference is that you, the reader, are not privy to the information. The fact that you see Zero actions and thoughts way more than Kaname and still aren't able to grasp his character shows how complex he is. The complexity of a mysterious person is not infinite. It like saying a machine is infinitely complex because you haven't opened it. Until you open it you don't know.
Your interpretation is almost laughable. What you had in mind is a doubt that you wanted to clarrify, not a mystery. If he really was a mysterious person, he wouldn't have given a straightout answer to begin with, nor would you think that the mystery is resolved just like that. Thus, comparing Kaname with some random guy who had nothing better to do but to stare at the buildings to kill his time (talk about better things to do) is like comparing grapes to grapefruits. Purebloods are hard to understand which adds complexity to their nature. The great saying "Yesterday is a history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...and that's why it is called present", your outlook on the future is a mystery, because you will never find out your future as it will keep adding on itself. Mystery is an aspect of complexity of a person. Do you know the definition of infinite? it means "god knows", literally.

Perhaps, I grasp his character must better, and hence with Zero, he is "what you see is what you get". But, Let's just put the whole grasping business aside as it seems more personal rather than a tool, what could be used to determine the complexity of a person.

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I appreciate Kaname character. I don't know where you got the idea that I didn't. As for the actions I dislike I could get specific but I won't as it would get long. I generally dislike when he manipulates people, which he has done on numerous occasions. That I understand that his manipulations are generally justified in his mind I don't like them. His actions actually contribute more to Zero hate and create a dangerous situation in the school with the unknowing day class.
I never said you don't appreciate his character, but I was talking in more general term that it takes matuarity to understand his actions in addition to his character. Bare with me here, but I can't argue if you don't get general to more specific. How does he manipulate "people"? how does his actions contribue to Zero's hate? and lead to dangerous sitation in the school? Seems to me, you are just throwing own vandetta against Kaname rather than providing any reasonable argument.

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Sure, I'll enlighten you. People have natural self-defense when it comes to emotional pain. It is not a mental disorder in anyway. You will often have to take counseling to resolve such an issue, often times for years. It is far from shallow to deal with it in such a way. People often wrongfully judge someone who does this as weak but people fail to grasp that person's pain.
It is not a "NATURAL" self-defense. Consult any doctor, and he will will tell you "oh..he surely needs help", even though doctors thoroughly knows that the person is going through some intense emotional pain. What you just described, cutting oneself to avert the pain, is a perfect example of a person with mental disorder which should be taken seriously. It is mostly caused by the pain, but not everyone attempts to seek the same path as Zero, only the weak minds do. The best way to seek help is to talk to adults, but the shallow way to deal with it is to cut yourself which basically leads to even more pain in the long run. In Zero's case though, Yuuki was there to help him out.

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I'll repeat again Zero is not suicidal! He was living for Yuki sake but that doesn't mean he was suicidal. He accepted his fate to fall to level E and die. Even now we nor he are sure if that fate is avoided or can ever be. I don't see a problem with him seeking revenge and dying in such a quest. Everyone dies sometime.
Sarcasm got the best of you. Knowing that it is Yuuki that keeps him alive, you still call her a poison. I wonder if there is a poison that could actually prevent one from endangering oneself. Did Zero not attemp to shoot himself after having a taste of Yuuki's blood? Point me at a good wisdom of life or a great person that actually claimed killing youself is justifiable. Under any given circumstances, killing yourself will not solve the issue nor will be you able to find the answer you are looking for.

Yeah, everyone dies at one point, then why not die after killing everyone? good logic. If you don't find any problem with Zero seeking revenge, then Shizuka shouldn't have been accused of having her revenge on the Kiryuu family either, since they were the ones who killed her lover. What is the difference between the woman who was called, insane, and Zero? revenge or suicide are not something to be encouraged in the society.

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Wow. You have some crazy logic. So just because at the time the that Zero stopping hurting himself Kaname also appeared means that Kaname was the one that influenced the change right?
Crazy for some, but ironic for most. Have you not read chapter 44, where Zero slowly started to realize that it was actually Kaname that influenced Yuuki, who in return helped him out in times of need. Denial much? well so was Zero.

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I wish he didn't give a second thought to killing Yuki now and commit to his goal of ridding the world of purebloods. But Zero in the end is a much nicer guy than me and that's the reason the mangaka can abuse him so much and not have him go wild killing everyone.
Mangaka abusing him so much? cry me a river.
There is not much to argue with you finally resorting to this. Even after Zero turned away from killing Yuuki, what is that it makes think he should've pulled the trigger? What do you hate about Yuuki that Zero isn't aware of? and wiping out all the purebloods?

"If" doesn't answer the situation here. Zero was brought to the cross acadamy for a reason. There are those that believe in co-existance between vampires and humans (Kaname, Yuuki, Cross, Night class..etc), and then there are some that don't (Zero, The council, H.A..etc). You pick the side.

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Cross is a horrible parent/guardian/person. Like I said I grasp why Kaname does what he does but I don't like it. He pushed Zero to his limit and Zero is justified in my mind in wasting him. He will? Probably not.
You have just about accused and blamed everyone in the series to back Zero up for his immodarate actions. And please be more specific about Kaname's actions next time. >_>

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Angst and jealously go hand in hand. That's obvious. In chapter 43, Kaname mentions awakening from a slumber that lasted many ages. This might just be a mistranslation but I'll take it as probable until shown otherwise. I don't know if you're mixing in Anime junk into a manga thread but I don't remember those scenes in the manga.
" Kaname also seemed to angst over every time Yuki was shown being close to Zero. At least Zero has better reasons to angst over things. " <---what you said

What Kaname felt is jealously, not angst. In this case, they don't go hand in hand and be comparable with what Zero felt 99% of the time. You don't think Zero is not jealous of Kaname the same way? Then he must not be in love with Yuuki.

You misinterpreted the meaning of Kaname's deep slumber. Vampires go torpor when the are morally wounded and don't have enough blood pool to keep them running, which leads to their prolonged sleep of many ages. However, this is not the end of their life as they are not fully destroyed. All they need is blood bath to be resurrected. Rido gave his blood to awake Kaname from his slumber, hence he became Kaname's master (Manga- blood on the crest). I didn't make this up, this is an ancient mythology. Kaname didn't put himself into sleep because he wanted to run away from his life. That doesn't make any sense what so ever.

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That's a false statement. We don't know what Kaname felt in the past about equality and peace. All that we know is his parents were the leaders of the pacifist movement. I don't think you grasp much of Kaname character if you don't think he go haywire if she died. He place his entire happiness in being with her. We don't know what Kaname did it the past. All we know is that he sealed himself away after he became disillusioned with the world.
Kaname's parents? Juuri and Haruka? you do know that it was the past head vampire king that abolished the monarchy and gave the power to the council for the sake of equal power among the vampires. Pacifism was already established in the past, but never trully attained. The council existed in the distant past without any powers that they have now. Kaname has already pointed out that he had planned to destroy the council in the past, but held back for a reason. The council is, "A system that could no longer tell the difference between good and evil", as exactly what Kaname described. It is only logical to think that Kaname hoped for peace in the past to, with the whole pacifism and overthrowing the council. Has Kaname ever been against the idea of pacifism? Wasn't it because of Kaname, the night class willingly gathered at the Cross Acadamy? and what exactly is that only Kaname can accomplish that Yuuki is aware of? peace is the only answer if you ask me.

His happiness is Yuuki, but his profession is establishing peace. They shouldn't be put at the same place.

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All we know is that he sealed himself away after he became disillusioned with the world.
Do we really?

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Is that suppose to be funny? A dark, handsome and mysterious man is as ubiquitous of a character as you can find in shoujo manga.
But, not many go as far as Kaname, to be able to put his hand through Shizuka and rip her heart apart, and drink her blood without hesitation for the sake of his love one despite the dark future that he inflicted on himself. Then again, I'm a fan of shounen, and don't read those half assed shoujo mangas that never bring any innovative to the field.

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Exactly my point. To sympathize with a character you have to relate to that character on a emotional level. The fact that you don't prefer a character due you can sympathize with shows your focus is shallow. You only see the outside and unable to connect with the real person. Like I said 90 percent of Kaname appeal is only in his outward appearance and the fact he is "mysterious".
Show me where I said I don't sympathize Zero? showing sympathy means you understand the character more? I said I don't prefer a character because he/she has my sympathy. That has nothing to do with your personal preferences. Don't dispute my opinion, and if I were only seeing the outside of a person, I wouldn't be here arguing as to why Kaname's actions are not wrong as it seems, nor would I be disagreeing with Zero's take on vampires and his quest for revenge. There is more than it seems.
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Last edited by freedomrulez; 2008-11-27 at 03:07.
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Old 2008-11-27, 05:52   Link #745
Mirakuru
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Originally Posted by xoxobleach View Post
i found it weird cos havent kaname met zero isnt zero a twin haha!

anw i think the hunter president is a male...
I think Kaname meant that it was his first time meeting the twin of somebody he already knew.. if that makes sense. ^^;

I guess the gender of the Hunter's Association president doesn't really matter anymore given the events of the recent chapter. ^^;;

On a side note, I really can't wait to see a Kaname/Zero/Yuuki fight, I really hope we get to next chapter~ =D *goes back to college apps*
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Old 2008-11-27, 07:06   Link #746
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by freedomrulez View Post
What does being bloodthirsty have to do with revenge in the first place? His eyes were always filled with hatred, which is what Shizuka wanted to see. What Shizuika saw in Zero was herself, driven by revenge that led her to wipe out the Kiryuus. Now his madness got the best of him by wanting to destroy all the purebloods. Zero always wanted to kill that woman, but he couldn't due to master-servant bond they shared between each other. Only after he witnessed Yuuki inclining to offer her blood to Shizuka, he became strong and shot his own leg to get out of the bond, allowing him to shoot Shizuka. Zero said he's lived only for that day, to kill her. It was Yuuki who was slowing him down from sinking into a despair. And you call her a poison? let me speak on behalf of Zero, "because Yuuki was there, I might've been able to live on". I failed to grasp his character? please.
Zero is far from mad. He definitely did hate vampires and especially the one who caused his suffering. That's only logical. Did he want to kill Shizuka, absolutely. Eventually he wanted to get revenge but he certainly didn't go out of his way to get in the way of other vampires. He did his job protecting the other students but he didn't want anything to do with vampires to begin with. You said "From the very beginning up till now, Zero has been driven by revenge toward the purebloods" and he hasn't. He wanted to kill to Shizuka but mainly what always driven him was he will to remain human until he actually lost to the craving and bit Yuki. Yuki has helped him I definitely give her credit for that but at the same time his dependence on her has always been his greatest flaw holding him back. No, that not entirely Yuki fault most of the blame lies with Zero but and I more or less understand why he does it but still don't like that he does.



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Your interpretation is almost laughable. What you had in mind is a doubt that you wanted to clarrify, not a mystery. If he really was a mysterious person, he wouldn't have given a straightout answer to begin with, nor would you think that the mystery is resolved just like that. Thus, comparing Kaname with some random guy who had nothing better to do but to stare at the buildings to kill his time (talk about better things to do) is like comparing grapes to grapefruits. Purebloods are hard to understand which adds complexity to their nature. The great saying "Yesterday is a history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...and that's why it is called present", your outlook on the future is a mystery, because you will never find out your future as it will keep adding on itself. Mystery is an aspect of complexity of a person. Do you know the definition of infinite? it means "god knows", literally.
If a mysterious person doesn't reveal his secrets then you can investigate and unlock that person secrets and reasoning. Most books will reveal the secrets of a mysterious person to the reader and the reader must get a sense of why this person does what he does. His actions have to based on some logic and reasoning. Infinite means something without an end and by definition a mystery has an answer to it so calling a mysterious person's complexity infinite is silly. All I was pointing out was that the mysterious person is not incomprehensible and you can find an answer to the mystery if you try.


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Perhaps, I grasp his character must better, and hence with Zero, he is "what you see is what you get". But, Let's just put the whole grasping business aside as it seems more personal rather than a tool, what could be used to determine the complexity of a person.
Complexity of a person can be determined by the different things that go in to their feelings. We can say like Zero who hates vampires but it is not anywhere as simple as that. Does he hate them, yes. But at the same time we see him in the past having doubts and reservations about why vampires are the way they are. We see when he encounters the Level E he was sent to kill he pitied it and was reluctant to kill him. We see that he in fact has most of the time a favorable opinion of some vampires. He doesn't completely trust them but he doesn't go out of he way to do anything to them either. His hate of his fate also influences his hate of vampire. Mixed up in his hate is fear, pity, disgust, distrust, an inability to understand them but at time he does seem to try to relate with them and trust them to a certain extent.



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I never said you don't appreciate his character, but I was talking in more general term that it takes matuarity to understand his actions in addition to his character. Bare with me here, but I can't argue if you don't get general to more specific. How does he manipulate "people"? how does his actions contribue to Zero's hate? and lead to dangerous sitation in the school? Seems to me, you are just throwing own vandetta against Kaname rather than providing any reasonable argument.
You misunderstand me. Ok, I'll be specific. Lets take Kaname manipulations in regard to Shizuka. I understand why he did everything he did. I'm not going to argue his reasons, but in the end he got the vampire council after Zero and made Zero be a pawn in his game. Zero sees this and does like it at all that Kaname is messing in his life. This only fuels his dislike more of vampires. Shizuka presence at the school also put many people in danger. Also we also see in Yuki case also. Kaname hiding who Yuki is, while very understandable for her protection in the end the pain and loss it will cause both Yuki and Zero is clear. It has driven Zero right now to his current mindset. Like I said while I understand why he does the things he does that doesn't mean I have to like them. Maturity is not needed to understand his actions because his actions aren't necessarily of a mature person. Manipulating people comes from a sense distrust of others, often that feeling is justified but does not make a case for a person's maturity as sometimes people with no to little maturity are experts at it.



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It is not a "NATURAL" self-defense. Consult any doctor, and he will will tell you "oh..he surely needs help", even though doctors thoroughly knows that the person is going through some intense emotional pain. What you just described, cutting oneself to avert the pain, is a perfect example of a person with mental disorder which should be taken seriously. It is mostly caused by the pain, but not everyone attempts to seek the same path as Zero, only the weak minds do. The best way to seek help is to talk to adults, but the shallow way to deal with it is to cut yourself which basically leads to even more pain in the long run. In Zero's case though, Yuuki was there to help him out.
You mistake "natural" for healthy. I understand that it is far from healthy but you must understand that it is far from uncommon or unexpected. People do it to many different levels. Mental disorder it is not. Perfectly sane people do it and live normal lives on the outside. It is not healthy and counseling should be given but calling them weak minded shows your own ignorance. People rarely open up about painful issues and that why often times years of counseling are need. If you expecting Zero to seek out help instead of internalizing the pain you have no understanding of most people. Don't look down on people when you think you would handle their situation better because you are not them and probably would be unable to fathom their feelings.


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Sarcasm got the best of you. Knowing that it is Yuuki that keeps him alive, you still call her a poison. I wonder if there is a poison that could actually prevent one from endangering oneself. Did Zero not attemp to shoot himself after having a taste of Yuuki's blood? Point me at a good wisdom of life or a great person that actually claimed killing youself is justifiable. Under any given circumstances, killing yourself will not solve the issue nor will be you able to find the answer you are looking for.
I have no problem with Zero endangering himself for a cause. Yuki is his poison because she holds him back. His dependence on her is frustrating. Japanese practiced Seppuku as a way of ritual suicide as a way to die with honor. They found this practice justified. We today in our society would not find that acceptable but then again that doesn't mean we can judge their actions. Many people in history have commit suicide to avoid capture and torture at the hands of enemies and then there is the practice of euthanasia but that a fairly complex argument I would rather avoid.

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Yeah, everyone dies at one point, then why not die after killing everyone? good logic. If you don't find any problem with Zero seeking revenge, then Shizuka shouldn't have been accused of having her revenge on the Kiryuu family either, since they were the ones who killed her lover. What is the difference between the woman who was called, insane, and Zero? revenge or suicide are not something to be encouraged in the society.
Shizuka misdeeds come from her not identifying who was the main object of her revenge. Yes, the Kiryuu were unknowing pawns but killing them solved nothing but her bloodlust. She even compounded her misdeeds by turning, Zero who was in no way a party to the events, into a vampire. Revenge is part of our society whether you like it or not. The U.S. didn't join WWII until after Pearl Harbor, nor did we attack Afghanistan until after the WTC. Blood must be often spilled to prevent even more from spilling in the future.

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Mangaka abusing him so much? cry me a river.
There is not much to argue with you finally resorting to this. Even after Zero turned away from killing Yuuki, what is that it makes think he should've pulled the trigger? What do you hate about Yuuki that Zero isn't aware of? and wiping out all the purebloods?
I have no problem with the Mangaka abusing him actually. I have more of a problem with how nice is he made. The abuse of Zero is what pushes this mangaka threw his pains and trails are what make this story interesting. I don't in anyway fault the Mangaka for this. Yuki has always held Zero back. I don't hate Yuki at all but in the end I think Zero has to seek his own path. I want him to chose a path even if it is one lined with blood.

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"If" doesn't answer the situation here. Zero was brought to the cross acadamy for a reason. There are those that believe in co-existance between vampires and humans (Kaname, Yuuki, Cross, Night class..etc), and then there are some that don't (Zero, The council, H.A..etc). You pick the side.
The Hunters Association of course. I'd rather be with like minded people that people I hate. Killing vampires gets a bad rap I mean he could become a soldier and kill actual humans.



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You have just about accused and blamed everyone in the series to back Zero up for his immodarate actions. And please be more specific about Kaname's actions next time. >_>
I have blamed Zero also. His inability to make a choice infuriates me. I don't think he has to be change his views on vampire in the end either.



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" Kaname also seemed to angst over every time Yuki was shown being close to Zero. At least Zero has better reasons to angst over things. " <---what you said

What Kaname felt is jealously, not angst. In this case, they don't go hand in hand and be comparable with what Zero felt 99% of the time. You don't think Zero is not jealous of Kaname the same way? Then he must not be in love with Yuuki.
Angst means a feeling of anxiety. Anxiety means the painful uneasiness of mind usu over an anticipated ill. Now that we understand the meaning of angst we can see that jealously we lead to such anxiety. Yes, Zero is jealous but he also a lot of other things to feel anxious about also.

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You misinterpreted the meaning of Kaname's deep slumber. Vampires go torpor when the are morally wounded and don't have enough blood pool to keep them running, which leads to their prolonged sleep of many ages. However, this is not the end of their life as they are not fully destroyed. All they need is blood bath to be resurrected. Rido gave his blood to awake Kaname from his slumber, hence he became Kaname's master (Manga- blood on the crest). I didn't make this up, this is an ancient mythology. Kaname didn't put himself into sleep because he wanted to run away from his life. That doesn't make any sense what so ever.
Is that mention in the fanbook or manga anywhere? You have to understand that vampire operate completely differently in different books. Ancient mythology doesn't translate into fiction the same each way. I understand Kaname went into a sleep but the details are a mystery. We can only guess at the reasons. Was Kaname attack or injured and that why he was asleep? We don't know but from his talks in seems that the despair possibly led him to that state.



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Kaname's parents? Juuri and Haruka? you do know that it was the past head vampire king that abolished the monarchy and gave the power to the council for the sake of equal power among the vampires. Pacifism was already established in the past, but never trully attained. The council existed in the distant past without any powers that they have now. Kaname has already pointed out that he had planned to destroy the council in the past, but held back for a reason. The council is, "A system that could no longer tell the difference between good and evil", as exactly what Kaname described. It is only logical to think that Kaname hoped for peace in the past to, with the whole pacifism and overthrowing the council. Has Kaname ever been against the idea of pacifism? Wasn't it because of Kaname, the night class willingly gathered at the Cross Acadamy? and what exactly is that only Kaname can accomplish that Yuuki is aware of? peace is the only answer if you ask me.
We don't know much about pacifism in the past. Even the king who gave up power we have no indication that he was a pacifist. He might very well have been but that doesn't mean he was or that was the reason for the power shift. It is really hard to guess what Kaname's plan are. Usually pacifist don't go out killing people and seems like they are only the start. Good and evil are fairly ambiguous terms too as what he considers evil might not be what we do. You also forget that Kaname was willing to abandon the school and take Yuki with him to safety. I'm not saying he wouldn't have offered them protection but he certainly has abandoned the idea of the school working. Kaname could very well seek peace but we only answer is a bit rash at the current time.


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But, not many go as far as Kaname, to be able to put his hand through Shizuka and rip her heart apart, and drink her blood without hesitation for the sake of his love one despite the dark future that he inflicted on himself. Then again, I'm a fan of shounen, and don't read those half assed shoujo mangas that never bring any innovative to the field.
I can't disagree. Kaname is one of the better characters of that design because he does take things to the extreme on occasions.


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Show me where I said I don't sympathize Zero? showing sympathy means you understand the character more? I said I don't prefer a character because he/she has my sympathy. That has nothing to do with your personal preferences. Don't dispute my opinion, and if I were only seeing the outside of a person, I wouldn't be here arguing as to why Kaname's actions are not wrong as it seems, nor would I be disagreeing with Zero's take on vampires and his quest for revenge. There is more than it seems.
Show me where I said you don't feel sorry for Zero. I was mocking your mistaken impression that sympathy means only to take pity on a character or feel sorry for them. It does not. To sympathize with also means to put yourself in their place and try to understand their pain or suffering. I relate much better with Zero actions and even in his indecisiveness that Kaname though. I believe you look more on Zero and Kaname from the outside. Kaname actions while understandable and cool looking from the outside once you place yourself in his place you see that in the end he has to understand that his actions will cause suffering and put people lives in danger. People could have and should have died during this attack by Rido. I wouldn't feel right about throwing innocent lives away and so I can't sympathize with his actions there.
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Old 2008-11-27, 08:21   Link #747
carmolita
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Originally Posted by freedomrulez View Post
@Carmolita

Actually Rido was referring to Kaname when he said "..What a great pleasure..being frozen by the strongest beast" (cha 38 - pg 21). Rido said those words before he went deep slumber. They say a real warrior finds pleasure in battling his strongest enemy despite his defeat.
My point is: Rido IS the strongest beast ~he was referring to himself as such. Kaname is the one frozen, because he can't completly kill Rido only slow him down for a period of years. I wouldn't be surprised if that monster we keep seeing inside of Ridos' eye is indeed a part of him (rido).

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Regarding the monster; good observation about Yuuki seeing through Kaname's eyes, essentially she is actually seeing Kaname. Though I wonder if we could make any conclusion based on the altered anime scene (Rido wasn't shown in the manga). Unless Hino gave away little bit of information pertaining to that incident, this exposition is pretty much viod.
Yuki is defintley not seeing kaname that part becomes clearer in episode 8. That person is rido~ perhaps during kanames' reawaking. The anime didn't alter all that much...I think they did a very good job with what they had to work with (and time constraints), and didn't change anything that would completly change the story so far.
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Perhaps. However, the Kuran crest must have been used during the sealing process. And do I see Rido giving his blood to awake Kaname? He seems to be feeding the crest rather than the body itself. There must be a strong relationship between Kaname and the Kuran crest.
I think the kuran crest is just a crest that represents the family~ something to identify who they are dead or undead. Even rido's body seems/appears to be unrecongnizable unless you are aware of his lineage. However, if Rido hadn't given kaname his blood he wouldn't have control over him (think of it as the zero x shizuka relationship)in his inability to deliver the final blow in killing his master. Rido did awaken kaname afterall and at this point until the spell is broken..I'm not totally sure if Kaname has regained his original power yet~that part is still unknown.

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And Kaname is definately a good person. I'm actually a huge fan of Kaname. ^ ^
So am I
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Old 2008-11-27, 17:10   Link #748
freedomrulez
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@Carmolita

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Originally Posted by carmolita View Post
My point is: Rido IS the strongest beast ~he was referring to himself as such. Kaname is the one frozen, because he can't completly kill Rido only slow him down for a period of years. I wouldn't be surprised if that monster we keep seeing inside of Ridos' eye is indeed a part of him (rido).
I have a feeling that you misunderstood the context. Rido was not the strongest beast, because he was simply not. And he said "what a great pleasure...being frozen (immobilized for 10 years) by the strongest beast (Kuran Ancestor, Kaname)". He wouldn't be calling himself "the strongest beast" while getting thrashed and eventually broke into thousands of pieces by Kaname.


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Yuki is defintley not seeing kaname that part becomes clearer in episode 8. That person is rido~ perhaps during kanames' reawaking. The anime didn't alter all that much...I think they did a very good job with what they had to work with (and time constraints), and didn't change anything that would completly change the story so far.
Essentially we are both right, but the difference is that we are looking at two diffeerent things. I also understand that it was Rido on the picture that "Yuuki" was looking straight up. However, I was talking about the monster Yuuki saw later through Kaname's vision. Yeah, anime didn't alter the scene as much, except they just made it more easier for us to comprehend what is really going on in the picture, where as in the manga though, it was left open for more spaculation.


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I think the kuran crest is just a crest that represents the family~ something to identify who they are dead or undead. Even rido's body seems/appears to be unrecongnizable unless you are aware of his lineage. However, if Rido hadn't given kaname his blood he wouldn't have control over him (think of it as the zero x shizuka relationship)in his inability to deliver the final blow in killing his master. Rido did awaken kaname afterall and at this point until the spell is broken..I'm not totally sure if Kaname has regained his original power yet~that part is still unknown.
Perhaps you are right, but the crest was never seen or used aftermath. And the blood path needed to be done to awake someone from deep slumber, because there is no other way around it. Can a pureblood take control over another pureblood by merely offering his/her blood to ressurect the dead or undead? If so, it makes you wonder why Kaname didn't take control over Rido after giving his blood to awake him. Kaname said his curse will be lifted after Rido's death, and so he will regain his original power. I guess we just have to wait and see. ^ ^

@Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Zero is far from mad. He definitely did hate vampires and especially the one who caused his suffering. That's only logical. Did he want to kill Shizuka, absolutely. Eventually he wanted to get revenge but he certainly didn't go out of his way to get in the way of other vampires. He did his job protecting the other students but he didn't want anything to do with vampires to begin with. You said "From the very beginning up till now, Zero has been driven by revenge toward the purebloods" and he hasn't. He wanted to kill to Shizuka but mainly what always driven him was he will to remain human until he actually lost to the craving and bit Yuki. Yuki has helped him I definitely give her credit for that but at the same time his dependence on her has always been his greatest flaw holding him back. No, that not entirely Yuki fault most of the blame lies with Zero but and I more or less understand why he does it but still don't like that he does.
What I mean by vampires is the purebloods that he is after, excluding nobles. There is no reason to avenge nobles as they were not responsible for his parents death, not that he ever had any reason to blame all the purebloods anyway. He always wanted to have his revenge against purebloods. When they started appearing right before his eyes, he didn't hold back. This explains his vicious attack against Kaname when he saw him the first time. There is no question that Kaname was one of his targets, but he couldn't kill him because of Yuuki. His "almost" killing spree continued on with Shizuka, Rido--->and now all the remaining purebloods including Kaname and Yuuki. You don't call this madness/crazy? If you think this is normal, then you must be crazy. His quest for revenge and the circumstances he was in driven him to the piont of losing his mind. If his actions are righteous, then ultimately he shall prevail, if not, he will have redeemed himself by the end of the novel which is exactly what is going to happen in the end, if the fundamental principles of moral philosophy still exists.

By holding him back, Yuuki was able to save Zero from letting himself be controlled by his quest for revenge. Keep in mind that purebloods are not as easy to kill. In fact, Had Shizuka was serious about killing Zero, she would've done that without lifting a finger before even Zero loaded his bloody rose. Same goes for Rido who was basically playing around with Yuuki and never really put a fight. Purebloods don't act upon irrasional reasoning.


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If a mysterious person doesn't reveal his secrets then you can investigate and unlock that person secrets and reasoning. Most books will reveal the secrets of a mysterious person to the reader and the reader must get a sense of why this person does what he does. His actions have to based on some logic and reasoning. Infinite means something without an end and by definition a mystery has an answer to it so calling a mysterious person's complexity infinite is silly. All I was pointing out was that the mysterious person is not incomprehensible and you can find an answer to the mystery if you try.
We are talking about the mystery of a person as a whole. It was not just one event that lead to his mysterious nature, but because he is fully shrouded in mystery. Mystery is always a mystery, because you and I will always be a mystery. Certain characters are dedicated to such role, and they are never fully explained. A mystery of a crime or certain event can be solved, if one were to look at all the aspects of possibilities. But of a person? It is much like how the conciousness cannot be solved. Mysterious person will always make you think out of curiosity. Have you seen "V for vendetta" movie? V is the masked character in the movie, who was virtually "unknown", but Known. What I'm implying is that nobody knew who he really was, but what they knew was that a person with a mask. He remained mysterious throught out the movie, helping to serve the purpose of the character. Had he fully been revealed, he wouldn't have served his original intended purpose, and his character was just waiting for what has yet to come.

You have probably taught in high school that infinite means a number that goes on forever without limit. This is actually false premise of what it really means, and they just had to make it easier for high schoolers to comprehend. When you get into university though, you will come to use this term a lot, as there are numereous ideas and entities which go beyond our limited mind to explain it. Infinite was derived from the term "god", because he himself is infinite. Likewise, unless you get a sense what Kaname really is, his complexity cannot be determined. And as I mentioned before, mystery might be an aspect of complexity.

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He doesn't completely trust them but he doesn't go out of he way to do anything to them either. His hate of his fate also influences his hate of vampire. Mixed up in his hate is fear, pity, disgust, distrust, an inability to understand them but at time he does seem to try to relate with them and trust them to a certain extent.
Everyone eventually ends up with the same fate, but it is up to us to choose whether to follow the same path as what the destiny chosen for us. Fate is never the end as you don't know your future, because it is dependant on the choises you make along, and the path you follow. If he cannot relate to himself, then there is no point in trying to relate to others. First, he has to accept himself as a vampire.

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...in the end he got the vampire council after Zero and made Zero be a pawn in his game. Zero sees this and does like it at all that Kaname is messing in his life. This only fuels his dislike more of vampires. Shizuka presence at the school also put many people in danger. Also we also see in Yuki case also. Kaname hiding who Yuki is, while very understandable for her protection in the end the pain and loss it will cause both Yuki and Zero is clear. It has driven Zero right now to his current mindset. Like I said while I understand why he does the things he does that doesn't mean I have to like them. Maturity is not needed to understand his actions because his actions aren't necessarily of a mature person. Manipulating people comes from a sense distrust of others, often that feeling is justified but does not make a case for a person's maturity as sometimes people with no to little maturity are experts at it.
Let's look at Kaname with the given choises to play a game with Shizuka. We are already aware of the fact that a battle between two purebloods would only end in stalemate. This is a general notion for all the purebloods, but one is always inferior or superior to another in one way or another, and yet it is still risky to blindly go agasint a pureblood. Shizuka used Yuuki as her pawn to get what she wanted, and she had two plans. Her first strategy was to use Yuuki to assasinate Kaname considering the fact that he only breaks his guard before Yuuki, but she already knew that it was ineffective toward Yuuki, and her second attempt was to drink Yuuki's blood in order to tern her into a servent, and by doing so, she could command her to kill Kaname. Essentially, she had the same goal, to kill Kaname for power, but used different tactics which Yuuki wasn't aware of or anyone for that matter except for Kaname.
Kaname on the other hand didn't literally use Zero as Shizuka did, but he knew that Zero will be thrown there, not by chance, but because of his hatred. See how his revenge gets played out here. Kaname predicted the happening of Shizuka getting shot by Zero, which stopped her ability to heal her wounds. This made it easier for Kaname to kill her without getting physical. I would blame Zero's vengeance if anything. As a matter of fact, Kaname left some of her blood for Zero as a cure for his transormation. He personally told the council to not to interfere with what is happening in the Cross Acadamy to save Zero from getting captured and executed. And he never blamed Zero for Shizuka's death either. Circumstances led Zero to be accused of her death, although Kaname could've revealed himself as the killer, but as a leader, he needed to keep it quite until the right time to confess it. He didn't have any problem with telling Zero that it was indeed him that killed Shizuka, as well as Cross who was aware of the whole thing kept it secret because it wasn't the right time. Why should Kaname be blamed for Shizuka's presense at the acadamy?

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You mistake "natural" for healthy. I understand that it is far from healthy but you must understand that it is far from uncommon or unexpected. People do it to many different levels. Mental disorder it is not. Perfectly sane people do it and live normal lives on the outside. It is not healthy and counseling should be given but calling them weak minded shows your own ignorance. People rarely open up about painful issues and that why often times years of counseling are need. If you expecting Zero to seek out help instead of internalizing the pain you have no understanding of most people. Don't look down on people when you think you would handle their situation better because you are not them and probably would be unable to fathom their feelings.
Ignorance is bliss.
How could "natural" be considered "healthy" when cutting youself will only cause more physical pain? And something that is very common in our soceity doesn't tell us how natural/healthy the problem is. Cancer is also very common these days, but is it healthy? One in every twenty youngsters go through emotional pains, but they don't attempt to queer their life by the means of cutting themselves. Mental disorder doesn't mean he is mentally retarded, it is just an illness and has nothing to do with being sane and insane. Those that have cut themselves due to emotional pain would say that it is not normal. They would actually advice you to not to do it despite the temporary relief you get out of it. One has the capacity to cut themselves, but anxious of letting all out infront of others? Everyone has their ups and downs, but some takes it to the extreme level. How in the world am I looking down at people that cut themselves? who is the one encouraging such act here? I feel their pain, but cutting oneself is by no means something that I would agree with when there is better ways to deal with pain without having to put your life at risk. You need help if you believe that it is perfectly natural or "healthy".


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We today in our society would not find that acceptable but then again that doesn't mean we can judge their actions. Many people in history have commit suicide to avoid capture and torture at the hands of enemies and then there is the practice of euthanasia but that a fairly complex argument I would rather avoid.
There is a lot of controversy around commiting suicide. According to bible, it is a sinful act that you could never seek for forgiving from god unless meant no harm in your life. The reason why it is never justified in our society is because of how it affects the family, the people you relate to, and how it influences our soceity despite one's own free will.

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Shizuka misdeeds come from her not identifying who was the main object of her revenge. Yes, the Kiryuu were unknowing pawns but killing them solved nothing but her bloodlust. She even compounded her misdeeds by turning, Zero who was in no way a party to the events, into a vampire. Revenge is part of our society whether you like it or not. Blood must be often spilled to prevent even more from spilling in the future.
If Shizuka was just as crazy as Zero now, she would've tried to wipe the hunters association, including Kiryuus. You seem to be judging them with Zero tainted goggles that never let you see who is right or who is wrong. You said you didn't see any problem seeing Zero's quest for revenge against all the purebloods, and yet somehow Shizuka killing Kiryuu's, who were part of the Hunters Association, was to fulfill her bloodlust?

And revenge is part our society, regardless of the cause of increase in violense? and blood must be spilled to prevent even more spilling? that's like one of those idiotic governer saying, eveyone should be killed to stop the bleeing. (and plz no need to get political, as this would turn into political based debate)

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..in the end I think Zero has to seek his own path. I want him to chose a path even if it is one lined with blood.
This is something I always failed to see in Zero. But, I won't mind Yuuki stoping him from standing in his way if he intends to seek the path of revenge, because that's like digging your own grave.

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The Hunters Association of course. I'd rather be with like minded people that people I hate. Killing vampires gets a bad rap I mean he could become a soldier and kill actual humans.
Like minded? Zero is now a vampire, remember? Not to mention that they will be coming right after him should he turn into a Level E vampire. Killing is not the answer, but the co-existance.

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Angst means a feeling of anxiety. Anxiety means the painful uneasiness of mind usu over an anticipated ill. Now that we understand the meaning of angst we can see that jealously we lead to such anxiety. Yes, Zero is jealous but he also a lot of other things to feel anxious about also.
Kaname didn't feel anxiety for god sake, he felt jealous of Zero being able to protect Yuuki. Just because they both give the same expression, doesn't mean they can be used in the same context.

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Is that mention in the fanbook or manga anywhere? You have to understand that vampire operate completely differently in different books. Was Kaname attack or injured and that why he was asleep? We don't know but from his talks in seems that the despair possibly led him to that state.
Torpor is another term for slumber that vampires go through, which was derived from ancient mythology. It means exactly what I described in my above comment. Hino didn't come up with that word out of blue hell, and twisted the meaning of it. Feeling of despire led him to the point that he lost his blood pole? If you need specific evidence from manga that tells you step by step that this is how he lost his blood and put into sleep, then you have no basis to claim that Kaname ran away from his life by going deep slumber.

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...Usually pacifist don't go out killing people and seems like they are only the start. Good and evil are fairly ambiguous terms too as what he considers evil might not be what we do. You also forget that Kaname was willing to abandon the school and take Yuki with him to safety. I'm not saying he wouldn't have offered them protection but he certainly has abandoned the idea of the school working. Kaname could very well seek peace but we only answer is a bit rash at the current time.
Kaname is no gentle hero, he said so himself. He wasn't going to abandon the school by taking Yuuki, because what Rido was after is Yuuki. It was because Yuuki decided to stay back, this whole problem arose. Besides, Kaname only wanted to take her to a safe place, that doesn't mean he wasn't going to come back. How else could've Yuuki figured out his motive if he just wanted to leave with her? She knew that Kaname has to do something that only he can accomplish. Which is why she let him go by assuring that she will come back to his arm once again, while he finishes what he started.

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Show me where I said you don't feel sorry for Zero. To sympathize with also means to put yourself in their place and try to understand their pain or suffering.
You said to sympathize a character, you need to relate to him on an emmotional level, and since you have been accusing me of not being able to grasp Zero's character, isn't that what you were trying to imply or am I getting the wrong impression?.
Is this some kind of paradox? you cannot understand one's pain unless you are in the same situation as him/her. You cannot imagine yourself as being one, it doesn't work that way.


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wouldn't feel right about throwing innocent lives away and so I can't sympathize with his actions there.
Who is the one to talk about innocent lives here? Your constant contradictary statements amaize me to no end. Humans are innocents, and vampires are? how does Kaname put innocent lives at risk? I don't think he would ever wish to do such a thing in his life.
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Old 2008-11-27, 21:38   Link #749
Slick_rick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedomrulez View Post
He always wanted to have his revenge against purebloods. When they started appearing right before his eyes, he didn't hold back. This explains his vicious attack against Kaname when he saw him the first time. There is no question that Kaname was one of his targets, but he couldn't kill him because of Yuuki. His "almost" killing spree continued on with Shizuka, Rido--->and now all the remaining purebloods including Kaname and Yuuki. You don't call this madness/crazy?
Wow. This is the most ludicrous argument I have heard. Zero attack on Kaname was more than understandable if you place yourself in his place. It was not madness. I think if after my family were killed by a vampire I might not like one popping up in front of me unexpectedly. I mean I would be surprised if he wasn't afraid for his own life and wanting to defend it when such a thing happened. Yeah, Kaname was one of his targets that's why that the only incident. Shizuka killed his family and came to take him away. Should he hug her and make up? GTFO. Rido fatally wounded his brother and came to destroy the school. Oh, he should just let this go cause you no forgiveness and all that crap. No, Zero is perfectly sane. If he kills all the purebloods no other human will ever be turned into a vampire. A noble end.


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Same goes for Rido who was basically playing around with Yuuki and never really put a fight. Purebloods don't act upon irrasional reasoning.
Zero was wrecking Rido. Zero pretty much destroyed the whole dorm rooms and had Rido retreating. Rido was only able to get in a quick feel up of Yuki before he was done in. Zero does not act irrationally either.


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Mystery is always a mystery, because you and I will always be a mystery.
Mystery does not equal complexity and the fact that a mystery is not solved does not mean that it was in anyway complex. I don't know how else to get it through your head.

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You have probably taught in high school that infinite means a number that goes on forever without limit. This is actually false premise of what it really means, and they just had to make it easier for high schoolers to comprehend. When you get into university though, you will come to use this term a lot, as there are numereous ideas and entities which go beyond our limited mind to explain it. Infinite was derived from the term "god", because he himself is infinite. Likewise, unless you get a sense what Kaname really is, his complexity cannot be determined. And as I mentioned before, mystery might be an aspect of complexity.
Oh College! You know everything! Wow, I is so stupid I is glad you show me the truth of almighty college.

FYI- The fact that you haven't seen who is the older and more experienced of the two of us just plain amazes me.

Infinite is not derived from god at all. While it is studied in theology, as with philosophy and math, the term did not originate from god. Are you saying that understanding Kaname actions are akin to understanding god? Are Kaname's actions are so complex, vast, and awe inspiring that the human mind cannot comprehend it? Wow I underestimated him.

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Why should Kaname be blamed for Shizuka's presense at the acadamy?
You made a huge statement trying to justify Kaname actions for no reason. I really can't understand you. I said I understand his reasons. It is the ends that I am concerned about. Honestly the means mean very little to me in general. The consequences of his actions are what I dislike. Zero growing distrust and hatred of pureblood and endangering of students.

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There is a lot of controversy around commiting suicide. According to bible, it is a sinful act that you could never seek for forgiving from god unless meant no harm in your life. The reason why it is never justified in our society is because of how it affects the family, the people you relate to, and how it influences our soceity despite one's own free will.
Medal of honor winner- John P. Cromwell: Stayed aboard a sinking submarine to prevent military secrets he possessed from falling into enemy hands.

You live in a world of too many blacks and whites and never see outside the box. Society does accept it in some situations. I don't support the bible, so your reasoning on that point means nothing to me.

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If Shizuka was just as crazy as Zero now, she would've tried to wipe the hunters association, including Kiryuus. You seem to be judging them with Zero tainted goggles that never let you see who is right or who is wrong. You said you didn't see any problem seeing Zero's quest for revenge against all the purebloods, and yet somehow Shizuka killing Kiryuu's, who were part of the Hunters Association, was to fulfill her bloodlust?
Zero and Shizuka are different because Zero actually has an end. Killing all the pureblood would allow no other humans to be turned into a vampire. Shizuka revenge was shallow and accomplished no real goal. The end goal and consequences of an action is the true means of determining the right and wrong. Your linear thinking has you believing that an action is inherently good or bad. That you fail to see that these acts right and wrong are determined by what the outcome is show you have trapped your mind in a box of linear thinking.

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And revenge is part our society, regardless of the cause of increase in violense? and blood must be spilled to prevent even more spilling? that's like one of those idiotic governer saying, eveyone should be killed to stop the bleeing. (and plz no need to get political, as this would turn into political based debate)
You are still unable to grasp a concept unless I spell it out for you.

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Kaname didn't feel anxiety for god sake, he felt jealous of Zero being able to protect Yuuki. Just because they both give the same expression, doesn't mean they can be used in the same context.
Have you never been jealous? You confuse me because I think anyone can see how jealousy would be accompanied by anxiety.


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You said to sympathize a character, you need to relate to him on an emmotional level, and since you have been accusing me of not being able to grasp Zero's character, isn't that what you were trying to imply or am I getting the wrong impression?.
You amuse me. Yes, I'm saying that you don't relate to him on an emotional level. That is why I changed "sympathize" to feel sorry for. The sympathize you meant was to feel sorry for and not what I meant in relating to. Once again I was mocking you but you failed to see it.

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Is this some kind of paradox? you cannot understand one's pain unless you are in the same situation as him/her. You cannot imagine yourself as being one, it doesn't work that way.
No, it is fairly basic. You can sympathize with a character to try to understand them and their actions but even then you will never be able to truly understand their pain.

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Who is the one to talk about innocent lives here? Your constant contradictary statements amaize me to no end. Humans are innocents, and vampires are? how does Kaname put innocent lives at risk? I don't think he would ever wish to do such a thing in his life.
What is contradictory? I never said anything about it only being the human students. He put the whole school at risk and that includes the vampires. Wish? He did it! Rido's henchmen were wandering the school looking for sacrifices. I think that's a fairly large risk of lose of lives.
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Old 2008-11-27, 22:20   Link #750
PreSage
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@freedomrulez: I know how you feel about some of the arguments others have posed against Kaname. I can't understand them myself - especially how many dislike Kaname because what he does looks manipulative. I've spent enough time arguing them and providing evidence to support Kaname's character but I'm glad to see your support and opinion as well. b

As for Zero, we all know Zero is a kind-hearted person - and maybe because he is too kind-hearted that he can't mentally handle the darkness which he has the misfortune of being thrown into. So his determination to blindly wipe out all purebloods regardless of who they are (friend or foe), shows his desperation to end his nightmare. If justification should be given for Zero to kill all purebloods because his family was murdered by a pureblood, then those vampires who have been hunted down by humans are also justified in their hatred of humans.

Juuri probably has all the reasons to hate humans, who hunt her and her family down, but she does not. She doesn't seek out all humans to kill them but wants to find a way to live peacefully with them. Hence, Kaname's determination to create the blood pills that would help them avoid biting humans and further a possible co-existence.

In order for peace to be possible, someone must drop their hatred and revenge (even though they know it is a loss for them) and reach out for peace. What Zero is doing is only fuelling further hatred between vampires and human. It is understandable that he has every right to hate them but it does not mean his actions are justified. Furthermore, he blindly blames everything on the purebloods but truth is that the humans (hunters) are equally guilty.
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Old 2008-11-28, 01:13   Link #751
freedomrulez
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@Presage

Thank you.^ ^I have gotten into a lot of arguments with VK fans in the past when VK forum was very active, though it pained me to see a lot of Kaname hatred, yet it was fun. Perhaps, it is because of the complexity of his character that he has fans just as many as anti-fans. Not to mention the fact that japan is crazy over Kaname. It is really frustrating sometimes to see how Kaname gets blamed for everything. Zero is definately a kind hearted person. But the way people go about accepting Zero's quest for revenge against all the purebloods as righteous is beyond me. Revenge is never an aswer to all the question he is looking for. And I whole heartedly agree with what you said.

@Slick_lick

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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Wow. This is the most ludicrous argument I have heard. Zero attack on Kaname was more than understandable if you place yourself in his place. It was not madness. I think if after my family were killed by a vampire I might not like one popping up in front of me unexpectedly. I mean I would be surprised if he wasn't afraid for his own life and wanting to defend it when such a thing happened. Yeah, Kaname was one of his targets that's why that the only incident. Shizuka killed his family and came to take him away. Should he hug her and make up? GTFO. Rido fatally wounded his brother and came to destroy the school. Oh, he should just let this go cause you no forgiveness and all that crap. No, Zero is perfectly sane. If he kills all the purebloods no other human will ever be turned into a vampire. A noble end.
Let's keep it civil here, tention is getting a bit sad in this place. Anyways, if your comprehend ability were any better, it should've been easier to grasp what I said about Zero's madness. I don't recall saying what Zero did to Kaname was out of his madness. Only his prejudice about vampires and declaring to kill all the purebloods are indication of his craziness, if any. Attacking Kaname was just part his revenge against purebloods. You don't get offensive unless your enemy gets it started, or it'd be a false assumption of what is about to come. I perfectly understood Zero's situation there, and hence I said before that Kaname even told Yuuki that it is Zero who was suffering, giving a reason for Yuuki to help Zero. Nonetheless, that wasn't the only time Zero ever thought about killing Kaname (Kaname to Zero : "How many times have you thought about killing me?...but you wouldn't be satisfied if things went that easily, would you?"). They both truly despise each other, but due to Yuuki's happiness, they both are forced to back off. And Shizuka didn't come to take him away, but she came to kill Kaname to obtain his power in order to kill the one that's supposedly ruined the destiny of all purebloods. Now that you are trying to find reasons for his actions against Shizuka and Rido, will you explain his behavior toward Yuuki in the recent chapters, and "all" the purebloods that he wants to kill?

One might wonder who really started it all, the hunter's ancestors that ate a pureblood ancestor to aquire the ability to hunt down vampires, or the vampires themselves? This might explain the curse of hunters for the sin they had commited in the past. Humans are just as evil as vampires in thier own way ("..ill-intention intentioned people who desire purebloods blood for the miracle drug our blood represents").

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If he kills all the purebloods no other human will ever be turned into a vampire. A noble end.
Fear is what drives us, humans, crazy to the point of trying to demolish everything that gets in our way to prevent the "possible" cause, in a real life sense. Beating a centipede to death before it even attacks is our inherited self-defense. But, have we ever thought about centipedes self-defense in trying to stop us from killing them? Your statements comes out as obtuse as it sounds.

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Zero was wrecking Rido. Zero pretty much destroyed the whole dorm rooms and had Rido retreating. Rido was only able to get in a quick feel up of Yuki before he was done in. Zero does not act irrationally either.
I'm sorry but, that was not what I'd call wrecking as he had his fair share with Yuuki to take him down. Rido was after Yuuki, for the most part, and just when he was letting his feeling of despair out toward Yuuki (referring to Juuri), Yuuki stabbed him from behind, and then Zero gave him the final blow. This is far from what I would consider an all out fight. And Rido was retreating? Where did you pulled that out from?

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Mystery does not equal complexity and the fact that a mystery is not solved does not mean that it was in anyway complex. I don't know how else to get it through your head.
Mystery is not complexity, but it might be an aspect of complexity. You are jumping to conclusion that Kaname is not a complex person just because he is mysterious. Ever heard of mysterious person with complex personality?

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FYI- The fact that you haven't seen who is the older and more experienced of the two of us just plain amazes me.Infinite is not derived from god at all. While it is studied in theology, as with philosophy and math, the term did not originate from god. Are you saying that understanding Kaname actions are akin to understanding god? Are Kaname's actions are so complex, vast, and awe inspiring that the human mind cannot comprehend it? Wow I underestimated him.
Oh, forgive my inability to see the very "apparent' age of yours through the so called, internet communication, that displays a blank area under your age profile. The fact that one having more experience in life doesn't tell us how intellectual they are in all aspects of life compare to the younger ones, and your tendency to treat younglings with inferiority is not very comforting either. May be you should consider doing some internet research before thinking about speaking out for youself. It is funny however that I learned from my Math professor.
You really don't have any clue as to what you are talking about. How did you come about comparing Kaname's complexity to that of a god? Like you mentioned before, humans mind can't comprehend what is inside the box, before opening to see what is inside.

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It is the ends that I am concerned about. Honestly the means mean very little to me in general. The consequences of his actions are what I dislike.
I thougth it was the means that you were having problem with (with all the bitching misconception about manipulating people and using Zero to achieve the "end" goal), and as far as I'm concerned, the "ends" have certainly given positive results. Life is never easy, and just as that Kaname is doing whatever he can to minimize the consequesnces of his actions.

You also claimed that it is healthy, but failed to make any sense out of it.


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Medal of honor winner- John P. Cromwell: Stayed aboard a sinking submarine to prevent military secrets he possessed from falling into enemy hands.
Society does accept it in some situations. I don't support the bible, so your reasoning on that point means nothing to me.
Lol political views. It's been almost 69 years since our ancestors experienced the horrible historic event, when even self-righteous turned into ashes, that exposed how dangereous we are (to ourselves), and we are supposed to give our applauds for those that commited suicide in the battle field before spitting out the information to the "enemy"? World has changed since then, may be for the good. I'm not a religious person, but it has nothing to do with me supporting what is on the bible. Your views on the world suprise me.

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Zero and Shizuka are different because Zero actually has an end. Killing all the pureblood would allow no other humans to be turned into a vampire. Shizuka revenge was shallow and accomplished no real goal. The end goal and consequences of an action is the true means of determining the right and wrong.
The end doesn't justify the means.
Killing all the purebloods is not the end of all this, and certainly not what the writer is trying to accomplish. Your take on Zero completely overshadows the other side of the world, including the characters. Everyone was born with a purpose, and none is superior or inferior at that. Purebloods were not created to be "just enemies" of humans and waiting to be eliminated, in fact they have their own goals and ambitions in establishing their place on earth (VK). Zero's goal will not accomplish anything except for the extinction of purebloods. *Oh great, we have just temoved one of million possible threats to our society*

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You are still unable to grasp a concept unless I spell it out for you.
Perhaps, it is your inability to present a reasonable argument to make it any less ridiculous.

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Have you never been jealous? You confuse me because I think anyone can see how jealousy would be accompanied by anxiety.
I fully know the similarity between anxiety and jealousy, but what Kaname felt toward Zero was wistful thinking of being able to stay by Yuuki's side to protect the one he loves. Angst is not what he felt and is never less than what Zero feels all the time, because when you are in a relationship, it is perfectly normal to be jealous as long as it doesn't physical or aggravated.

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You amuse me. Yes, I'm saying that you don't relate to him on an emotional level. That is why I changed "sympathize" to feel sorry for. The sympathize you meant was to feel sorry for and not what I meant in relating to. Once again I was mocking you but you failed to see it.
I'm glad that I amuse you, and i'm sorry that I failed to see your sarcasm, though I failed to see what point it served, or is it a failed attempt at making sarcasm?

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What is contradictory? I never said anything about it only being the human students. He put the whole school at risk and that includes the vampires. Wish? He did it! Rido's henchmen were wandering the school looking for sacrifices. I think that's a fairly large risk of lose of lives.
I meant innocent lives, not just humans or vampires, but purebloods also. There is always good, bad, and innocents in all kinds. I found it ironic that you claimed killing all the purebloods (including the innocent ones) a noble one. Why is that Kaname always get blamed for every actions. Rido attacking the school has much to do with the council and Yuuki. He confessed at the very end of his life that it was not the weapon he was after, but Yuuki (Juuri's love). It was partially Yuuki's fault for remaining at the acadamy, but I don't blame her. Kaname wiped out the council to prevent them from killing the night class students and creating a chaos at the school. You know, after all the talking about how i'm only seeing the "outside", it is becoming quite clear that you don't look at every characters in a equal manner or see their, whatever you call, "insdie", and hence you falsely accused everyone in the series except for Zero.
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Last edited by White Manju Bun; 2008-11-29 at 15:09. Reason: removed offtopic parts
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Old 2008-11-28, 05:14   Link #752
Slick_rick
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Our philosophies differ greatly so I won't continue to argue that as it would be a redundant argument. For me the ends are more than justified for the means. I would sacrifice the lives of others to save even more lives but even still I must take into account the risk and rewards of such a thing. I have no problem sacrificing innocent purebloods because they are a necessary casualty to achieve his goal. The student though at the school are an unnecessary casualty. The risk of their deaths could be avoided if Kaname and Cross had made proper plans before the end they knew was coming.

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I'm sorry but, that was not what I'd call wrecking as he had his fair share with Yuuki to take him down. Rido was after Yuuki, for the most part, and just when he was letting his feeling of despair out toward Yuuki (referring to Juuri), Yuuki stabbed him from behind, and then Zero gave him the final blow. This is far from what I would consider an all out fight. And Rido was retreating? Where did you pulled that out from?
After Yuki was thrown off the building him and Rido had a fight unseen to us. Rido at the time was focused on making Zero part of his power. He didn't seem to be playing around anymore. We see Rido in one scene jumping off the doom rooms before they came crashing down chased by Zero's vines. From what we see of the battle it is clear that Zero was at the minimum holding his own if not winning outright.

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Mystery is not complexity, but it might be an aspect of complexity. You are jumping to conclusion that Kaname is not a complex person just because he is mysterious. Ever heard of mysterious person with complex personality?
I've never made such an assertion. It was you who claimed that because he was a mystery that Kaname had infinite complexity.

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Oh, forgive my inability to see the very "apparent' age of yours through the so called, internet communication, that displays a blank area under your age profile. The fact that one having more experience in life doesn't tell us how intellectual they are in all aspects of life compare to the younger ones, and your tendency to treat younglings with inferiority is not very comforting either. May be you should consider doing some internet research before thinking about speaking out for youself. It is funny however that I learned from my Math professor.
I don't talk down to people younger than me at all. Just you. You were the one whose statement made the assumption that I was somehow a high school student with no idea about college. You trying to make look like the one who was doing that talking down as I never made any such assertions about your background. I do research. The fact that you are using a math professor to try to prove your argument shows you are relying on the logic fallacy of an "Appeal to authority".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

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You really don't have any clue as to what you are talking about. How did you come about comparing Kaname's complexity to that of a god? Like you mentioned before, humans mind can't comprehend what is inside the box, before opening to see what is inside.
You are the one who made his assertion of the infinite complexity of Kaname. Yes, humans can't comprehend what in a box until they open it but that doesn't mean that it is infinitely complex because you have yet to open it. If you open up the mysteries of God, then it should be so complex that you would never be able to fathom it. Endless and boundless.

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Ignorant as I'm, you are the one keep ignoring a simple fact that it is an illness. Where does it say "natural" or "healthy" on wiki? Did you stop half way through before getting to this line; "...It is sometimes associated with mental illness..or mental traits such as low self-esteem or perfectionism"?
You also claimed that it is healthy, but failed to make any sense out of it.
I don't know how times I have mentioned this but again it is natural. Illness in itself is natural! I never claimed it was healthy at all. That is you putting words in my mouth. I think you are under the false impression that anything that is natural is healthy and anything unnatural is unhealthy. I wonder if you honestly read the words that I write sometimes. Yes, sometimes it's associate with mental illness, etc and I never claimed otherwise.

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Lol political views. It's been almost 69 years since our ancestors experienced the horrible historic event, when even self-righteous turned into ashes, that exposed how dangereous we are (to ourselves), and we are supposed to give our applauds for those that commited suicide in the battle field before spitting out the information to the "enemy"? World has changed since then, may be for the good. I'm not a religious person, but it has nothing to do with me supporting what is on the bible. Your views on the world suprise me.
His name is still celebrated today. And he is remembered with great respect. The world hasn't changed. You, I believe just haven't experienced with the real world yet. We have wars going on today and we will more wars going on tomorrow and such things will happen. Most people don't share your beliefs on suicide being so inherently evil.

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I'm glad that I amuse you, and i'm sorry that I failed to see your sarcasm, though I failed to see what point it served, or is it a failed attempt at making sarcasm?
The sadist in me was only taking pleasure in teasing you. You never understood that my meaning of sympathy was different because you never tried to get what I was saying. You keep assuming my argument was the one way you had already made up in your mind . I quickly got that your sympathy was different than mine after your first statement but you still were unable to grasp it until I actually spelled it out for you. This is a recurring problem I see in your arguments so I wouldn't be me if I didn't have a little fun with it.
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Old 2008-11-28, 17:36   Link #753
freedomrulez
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Our philosophies differ greatly so I won't continue to argue that as it would be a redundant argument. For me the ends are more than justified for the means. I would sacrifice the lives of others to save even more lives but even still I must take into account the risk and rewards of such a thing. I have no problem sacrificing innocent purebloods because they are a necessary casualty to achieve his goal. The student though at the school are an unnecessary casualty. The risk of their deaths could be avoided if Kaname and Cross had made proper plans before the end they knew was coming.
It is quite easy to see how flawed your philosophy is despite your subjective reasoning. When one resorts to use "my opinion", it defeats the whole purpose of debate. I can not change your views, but it doesn't neccessarily mean your take on this world is justified, nor mine. How could the end be morally justified when you just wiped out the existance of a specie from the earth to save your life? aren't you looking at it only from "your" perspective? Let's look at this issue from both point of views, vampires & humans;

Humans say: "let's kill every one of those bastards to prevent the "possible" cause of us turning into mindless monsters in the future" (Purebloods are only minor threat to human society, as only ill-intentioned people would go as far to bite humans. Besides, other purebloods are doing fine job at restraining themselves from drinking humans blood while enduring the pain of not getting thier valued "meal ")

Purebloods say: "As minority as we are, there is a risk of our specie getting extinct" (Extinction is a huge threat, and if the natural selection & evolution, fight for survial, were to take place, undoubtedly purebloods will survive simply because strong survives if all the purebloods join forces together).But of course, this is not what the purebloods want in spite of having the power to seize humans and vampires into an army just as easily. Truth be told, humans even poison themselves from drinking the blood of purebloods (For instance, the leader of Vampire hunter association). Their job is to slay vampires as ordered from The Council, and get pureblood in exchange. So, going by your definition of sacrificing lives to save more, why not first wipe out the evil in us before actually taking any action against other threats? The only thing that should come to your mind is peace. Should we vow to kill all of who we consider, threats, as the only possible way to create a so called perfect utopia, none will survive, not even us. We will become our own pray.

Why do you insist on blaming Kaname (and Cross) for every possible actions? Chaos at the Cross Acadamy was created by the Council and the attack from Rido. Night class, gathered by the request of Kaname, was doing their job to protect day class students from getting hurt in the process. Kaname was out to kill The Council that sent vampires to kill the Night class students. Cross was dealing with his people from Hunters Association to prevent any more corrupt. Not to mentioned that they interfered with Kaien from clearing out the day class confusion (Once again, we ultimately became our own best enemy). And they are accused of not making plan accordingly? speaking of which, why should Kaname, a pureblood that is on your "must get wiped out" list, even be helping them out in the first place? Something to think about.

Quote:
After Yuki was thrown off the building him and Rido had a fight unseen to us. Rido at the time was focused on making Zero part of his power. He didn't seem to be playing around anymore. We see Rido in one scene jumping off the doom rooms before they came crashing down chased by Zero's vines. From what we see of the battle it is clear that Zero was at the minimum holding his own if not winning outright.
If Rido was retreating, he wouldn't be standing by Yuuki's side, pleading for his love in the first place while not taking into consideration of getting stabbed. Also, he came after her as soon as she fell off the building, besides he wasn't even bleeding (Not that Zero could've done anyting to Rido in those 5 seconds anyway). I thought Rido made it clear that he was only after Yuuki. Nevertheless, in an all-out-fight, there is no question that Zero and Yuuki would've won, but with major casualty.

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I've never made such an assertion. It was you who claimed that because he was a mystery that Kaname had infinite complexity.
You still haven't understood the meaning of infinite that I was speaking of. I said it means "god knows", "who knows", "have no idea"..etc. Unless you get a sense of who he really is, you don't know how complex his character is. Of course you can relate infinite with whole different meanings to mathematic, astronomy and what not.

Quote:
I don't talk down to people younger than me at all. Just you. The fact that you are using a math professor to try to prove your argument shows you are relying on the logic fallacy of an "Appeal to authority".
Funny how in my statement I wasn't implying you, as in you, but was speaking on behalf of what I was going through in high school until I got into University. So, unless you happen to fall under it, you shouldn't even be taking it personal. Besides, I'm not stupid enough to claim that you currently attend high school when I don't even know who you are. I would rather learn from a person whose knowledge covers a wide range of field, than someone I don't even know on the internet, because as a math prof who has used the term "infinite" through most of his life, would have a much better sense of what it really means. There is no "known facts" about the meaning of terms, unless we give them the meaning.

Quote:
You are the one who made his assertion of the infinite complexity of Kaname.
I have already pointed out the meaning of infinite that I was referring to, and I was in no way implying that Kaname's complexity is that of a god.

Quote:
I don't know how times I have mentioned this but again it is natural. Illness in itself is natural! I never claimed it was healthy at all. That is you putting words in my mouth. Yes, sometimes it's associate with mental illness, etc and I never claimed otherwise.
The article that you provided in your above comment just proved my case. Here is what you said;
("It is not a mental disorder in anyway" , "You mistake "natural" for healthy")
As the article was saying, it is related to mental illness, and it is not natural. Just put it aside, because you are only making ass out of youself with your contradictory speach.

Quote:
We have wars going on today and we will more wars going on tomorrow and such things will happen.
No shit sherlock. When there are people that don't care about killing innocent lives to save "more", war will never end. But, we can only remain hopeful that we won't ever see another WWII in our life.

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The sadist in me was only taking pleasure in teasing you.
Okie dokie.
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Old 2008-11-29, 08:20   Link #754
Slick_rick
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Quote:
You still haven't understood the meaning of infinite that I was speaking of. I said it means "god knows", "who knows", "have no idea"..etc. Unless you get a sense of who he really is, you don't know how complex his character is. Of course you can relate infinite with whole different meanings to mathematic, astronomy and what not.
Let me see if I can put an end to this infinite argument. You're statement to was:

"Kaname is one of the prime example of a portrayal of a mysterious person. Kaname is not as complex as Zero? explain. When a character is shrouded in mystery and unfathomable, his complexity is infinite."

I'd like to point out I never said Kaname was not as complex as Zero. I said "Kaname is more of a mystery, but mysterious doesn't equal complex. Once the mystery is broken I doubt he'll be anywhere as complex as Zero who has a torrid of emotions towards many issues."

Now the way you use infinite in your original sentence tries to confuse the reader by using a double entendre. The meaning you say it is as "god knows" or "unknown". It can also be taken as being endless and boundless. You trying to imply both meaning at the same time though. If we replace infinite in the sentence with unknown then it becomes "Kaname complexity is unknown". Now if we compare Zero and his complexity we would be unable to determine who is more complex. If we replace infinite with endless, "Kaname complexity is endless". Now if we compare Zero and his complexity we can see that Kaname's compexity would be more than Zero's known complexity. It's also clear why I believed you were going for "endless" because before you said his complexity was unfathomable which would more go with the endless take than the unknown. You were trying to imply both the strict definition and loose definition at the same time. A better wording would have been if you said his complexity is unknown or ambiguous.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infinite

Also you can see that your use of infinite is off also. A mysterious person's complexity would be immeasurable not immeasurably great because you would have no basis to say whether the complexity was great or small to begin with. I also used a double entendre to mock you hopefully you can find it.

Quote:
Funny how in my statement I wasn't implying you, as in you, but was speaking on behalf of what I was going through in high school until I got into University. So, unless you happen to fall under it, you shouldn't even be taking it personal. Besides, I'm not stupid enough to claim that you currently attend high school when I don't even know who you are. I would rather learn from a person whose knowledge covers a wide range of field, than someone I don't even know on the internet, because as a math prof who has used the term "infinite" through most of his life, would have a much better sense of what it really means. There is no "known facts" about the meaning of terms, unless we give them the meaning.
So each time you said "you" you were actually not talking about me but about yourself? So when you said "When you get into university though", and you didn't mean "you" as in me at all but "I" as in you? You should be clearer next time if you don't want to have a misunderstanding then.

You logic was flawed because you relied solely on what he told you and tried to make that the basis for the validity of your argument. He might be correct but I have found no evidence to support it and have found evidence contrary to your claim. Now I could show what I have found but at least try to prove your statement with actual facts instead of my "math teacher told me".

Quote:
The article that you provided in your above comment just proved my case. Here is what you said;
("It is not a mental disorder in anyway" , "You mistake "natural" for healthy")
As the article was saying, it is related to mental illness, and it is not natural. Just put it aside, because you are only making ass out of youself with your contradictory speach.
No, it is you making the ass of yourself. You take my statement, "You mistake "natural" for healthy", out of context. That statement was in regards to the fact you kept saying that "cutting yourself was not natural". I was saying that you are mistaking natural for healthy meaning "cutting yourself was not healthy". You even disregarded my next sentence where I plainly stated that is was unhealthy but natural. You should really learn what "natural" means without me having to explain it.

And no cutting yourself is not a mental disorder in anyway.

It is sometimes associated with mental illness..or mental traits such as low self-esteem or perfectionism"?

Yes, sometimes being the keyword. It is a symptom of possibly having a mental disorder but that is not the same thing as it being a mental disorder. You have to make that distinction. Headaches are a symptoms of some mental disorders but that doesn't mean headaches are a mental disorder.

Quote:
No shit sherlock. When there are people that don't care about killing innocent lives to save "more", war will never end. But, we can only remain hopeful that we won't ever see another WWII in our life.
If they weren't people like that the Hitler's of the world would be in charge. Take the atomic bomb droppings. What are your choices there? You could drop the bomb and kill innocent civilians or you could invade and kill even more American and Japanese in the invasions or you could let them go and "hope" they don't start another war. A war will never end if you aren't willing to make sacrifices. If we left Japan alone we show weakness which will only embolden them to continue their imperialist desires. Your viewpoints are too narrow and idealistic.
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Last edited by Slick_rick; 2008-11-29 at 08:28. Reason: pointing out my double entendre use or else it would go unnoticed otherwise
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Old 2008-11-29, 14:23   Link #755
freedomrulez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Let me see if I can put an end to this infinite argument. You're statement to was:

"Kaname is one of the prime example of a portrayal of a mysterious person. Kaname is not as complex as Zero? explain. When a character is shrouded in mystery and unfathomable, his complexity is infinite."

I'd like to point out I never said Kaname was not as complex as Zero. I said "Kaname is more of a mystery, but mysterious doesn't equal complex. Once the mystery is broken I doubt he'll be anywhere as complex as Zero who has a torrid of emotions towards many issues."

Now the way you use infinite in your original sentence tries to confuse the reader by using a double entendre. The meaning you say it is as "god knows" or "unknown". It can also be taken as being endless and boundless.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infinite

Also you can see that your use of infinite is off also. A mysterious person's complexity would be immeasurable not immeasurably great because you would have no basis to say whether the complexity was great or small to begin with.It's also clear why I believed you were going for "endless" because before you said his complexity was unfathomable which would more go with the endless take than the unknown.
Perhaps, It is my job to finish what I started.

I have already explained it before that I meant "god knows" (meaning have no idea or uknown). But, you insisted on believing that infinite only means endless/uncountable. And if you want me to provide "fact" from internet resources (although not all meanings are based on facts ),

http://www.yourdictionary.com/infinite

"boundlessness, infinity, the unknown"
"untold"

And I don't recall saying that Kaname's "complexity" is unfathomable. I said his character is unfathomable (Difficult to understand). Thus, you are at your fault for misunderstanding my statement and assuming that I meant endless.


Let's examine your remark:

"Kaname is more of a mystery, but mysterious doesn't equal complex. Once the mystery is broken I doubt he'll be anywhere as complex as Zero who has a torrid of emotions towards many issues." - 1st input
"Mystery does not equal complexity and the fact that a mystery is not solved does not mean that it was in anyway complex." - 2nd input

First of all, going by your definition, Kaname's mysterious nature should not have any affect on his complexity (1st input) as mystery doesn't equal complexity (your opinion). You claimed that Kaname's complexity will not be anywhere as complex as Zero once his mystery is broken. Again a lot of contradiction, and you second input is more or less the same, but you just disproved your first statement. However, I kind of picked it up and said "mystery might be an aspect of complexity", and hence they might have affect on each other. Having said that, we can't tell how complex Kaname is (whether he is more or less complex than Zero) unless we get a sense who he is. This is what I was implying in my ogirinal statement as a counterattack to your comment. This topic shouldn't have been dragged on this long.

Quote:
You logic was flawed because you relied solely on what he told you and tried to make that the basis for the validity of your argument. He might be correct but I have found no evidence to support it and have found evidence contrary to your claim. Now I could show what I have found but at least try to prove your statement with actual facts instead of my "math teacher told me".
Look up. That's all I've got to say.

Quote:
..And no cutting yourself is not a mental disorder in anyway.

It is sometimes associated with mental illness..or mental traits such as low self-esteem or perfectionism"?

Yes, sometimes being the keyword. It is a symptom of possibly having a mental disorder but that is not the same thing as it being a mental disorder. You have to make that distinction. Headaches are a symptoms of some mental disorders but that doesn't mean headaches are a mental disorder.
I meant exactly what I stated. So stop uttering bullshit, saying that I mistook natural for healthy. Why don't you explain what "natural" really means in this context to stop further confusion? true to nature? normal? usual? ordinary? (explained why it is not any of these).


Quote:
A war will never end if you aren't willing to make sacrifices. If we left Japan alone we show weakness which will only embolden them to continue their imperialist desires. Your viewpoints are too narrow and idealistic.
I don't like getting into political debates. This is has become a huge issue. Anyways, what good has come after dropping automic bomb on Nagasaki, pearl harbor attack, or killing hitler for that matter? I thought you said war is still on going, and people are dying everyday. And don't judge me on my viewpoint. One would have a better understanding of how terrying war is if they were part of a war, and if your family (I don't mean it) were one of the innocent lives that had to be sacrificed to save others, may be you might understand the whole idiotic concept behind killing some to save more (by saving more, I mean killing even more, because that's what it essentially comes down to). Let it be too idealistic or narrow, but what everyone needs is hope. We've come way too far, killed countless in the process, and have yet to find a conclution to all this.
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Last edited by White Manju Bun; 2008-11-29 at 15:03. Reason: removed off topic parts
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Old 2008-11-29, 15:06   Link #756
White Manju Bun
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Ok Mod Post time.

I can see we're having a "nice" little conversation concerning Kaname and Zero. Please remember this is the manga thread, what is going on here might be better applied in the invdividual character threads.

Also I have removed alot of the off topicness of that thread espc concerning self-injury. This is not something that should be discussed and links about it should not be posted, it has nothing to do with the manga. If you wish to keep discussing it do it in a civil way via pm if necessary.

Also what the language, you can post, convery your point without resulting in name calling.

Failure to adbide by the rules will result in a warning.
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Old 2008-11-30, 09:38   Link #757
n1dh0g
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Actually I have a question that's been bothering me?

In the manga was it implied that Kaname is actually some ancestor of the Kuran family, if so where?
What's his actual relation to Yuuki?

Maybe I was flying through the 45 chapter so I prob didn't notice it. XD Thanks in advance
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Old 2008-11-30, 12:03   Link #758
Queeny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n1dh0g View Post
Actually I have a question that's been bothering me?

In the manga was it implied that Kaname is actually some ancestor of the Kuran family, if so where?
What's his actual relation to Yuuki?

Maybe I was flying through the 45 chapter so I prob didn't notice it. XD Thanks in advance
if You ask where did he said that's.....
Read Ch 38 , Page 27

and ...
about his relation to Yuuki , tell now we don't know what he is ..
but since he's from the kuran Family I think he's just like Grandfather
he's back to life inside Yuuki's brother body and that after Rido killed him , he Put Kaname Soul inside the body
I think it's just like that .____.
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Old 2008-11-30, 22:23   Link #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queeny View Post
...I think he's just like Grandfather
LOOOOL at the imagery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Queeny View Post
he's back to life inside Yuuki's brother body and that after Rido killed him , he Put Kaname Soul inside the body
I think it's just like that .____.
I still have reservation about that. I can't remember for the life of me where in the manga that it explicitly says this. But that may be just me being an idiot skeptic.
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Old 2008-11-30, 22:29   Link #760
carmolita
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That's because it doesn't say it anywhere in the manga~ directly that is. It is implied in the flashback from 10 years ago. You have to pay close attention to what everyone is saying..

I rufuse to take the kaname is a grandfather stance, because that part of his past has not yet been revealed~we'll know more tomorrow..

Last edited by carmolita; 2008-11-30 at 23:42.
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