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Old 2009-10-16, 01:11   Link #1121
Slick_rick
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
That's not quite what I was implying. The purebloods became "endangered" out of assimilating with another species. They Didn't make the measures to preserve their species until they were almost totally assimilated (which is the reason for their low numbers). Then, after, the danger of the society became immanent, and when their blood's use became public that's when they were in that hopeless situation (aka, Them against the world). The thing is though, They didn't make any more enemies. They only ignored the ones they had. I'm sure some purebloods would like to live peaceful lives then constantly fighting/controlling the endless numbers of the vampire society (As the Kuran Family gave up the monarch system). Of course, Kaname being the exception to that.
This seems a fairly illogical theory. Purebloods live for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years. It is pretty impossible for assimilation to have done them in. I doubt they had many Purebloods alive to begin with but I find it hard to believe that they couldn't make 1 or 2 children to make the count even before they died. It's much more likely that they were being killed of due to VC using their children as experiments and infighting between them.

It certainly wasn't a hopeless situation. Kaname clearly demonstrates that Purebloods>the world for the most part, excluding Zero. Even the chairman, the Vampire without fangs, got his ass handed to him by a pregnant pureblood. The only one who can stop them are other purebloods.

The purebloods certainly make enemies. Zero is one of them but the fact that the only ones who can turn humans into Vampires is certainly telling. We seen our fair share of ex-human Vampires. This is purebloods and only purebloods doing and certainly builds a lot of enmity between the two species. Rido, Shizuka, and Kaname are all people who compounded wrongs with more wrongs, Shizuka and Kaname especially.

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Why take out the VC when they pretty much leave you alone? The council will not attack purebloods openly, dealing with them would only give more opportunity for the purebloods to show their weakness.
My point is the fact that they didn't deal with them is a sign of there own weakness and stupidity. It led to this situation. If you see smoke coming out of your oven and you ignore it don't be upset when your house burns down. The VC was certainly not leaving them alone with keeping Shizuka in a cage and whatever experiment they might have presumably done on Kaname in the past.
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Old 2009-10-16, 14:11   Link #1122
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
This seems a fairly illogical theory. Purebloods live for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years. It is pretty impossible for assimilation to have done them in. I doubt they had many Purebloods alive to begin with but I find it hard to believe that they couldn't make 1 or 2 children to make the count even before they died. It's much more likely that they were being killed of due to VC using their children as experiments and infighting between them.

It certainly wasn't a hopeless situation. Kaname clearly demonstrates that Purebloods>the world for the most part, excluding Zero. Even the chairman, the Vampire without fangs, got his ass handed to him by a pregnant pureblood. The only one who can stop them are other purebloods.

The purebloods certainly make enemies. Zero is one of them but the fact that the only ones who can turn humans into Vampires is certainly telling. We seen our fair share of ex-human Vampires. This is purebloods and only purebloods doing and certainly builds a lot of enmity between the two species. Rido, Shizuka, and Kaname are all people who compounded wrongs with more wrongs, Shizuka and Kaname especially.
If the Purebloods had to ability to procreate constantly, with their long life spans the problem would be solved with one family, have a kid every year or two. Since that hasn't happened, It's pretty safe to say that they can't have more then X amount of children, leading to assimilation as at least part of the problem (as other purebloods would take on Human partners/vampires). Infighting certainly would be as well.

Anyway, until we get a clear answer from Hino Sensei, we'd just be left speculating the entire time.

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My point is the fact that they didn't deal with them is a sign of there own weakness and stupidity. It led to this situation. If you see smoke coming out of your oven and you ignore it don't be upset when your house burns down. The VC was certainly not leaving them alone with keeping Shizuka in a cage and whatever experiment they might have presumably done on Kaname in the past.
So If there is a Burning Oven in your house, just move to a new one. That way you won't have to continuously fight a fire that is ever expanding and waste your efforts. Shizuka slaughtered a Human family, which is murder, as the VC is the vampire side representative, it would obviously force them into involvement (wasn't Rido trying to control her anyway?). while Kaname most likely left to set up the Vampire side of Cross Academy, which means he would have to go through the VC. Both cases forced the VC into the situation.
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Old 2009-10-17, 07:44   Link #1123
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If the Purebloods had to ability to procreate constantly, with their long life spans the problem would be solved with one family, have a kid every year or two. Since that hasn't happened, It's pretty safe to say that they can't have more then X amount of children, leading to assimilation as at least part of the problem (as other purebloods would take on Human partners/vampires). Infighting certainly would be as well.

Anyway, until we get a clear answer from Hino Sensei, we'd just be left speculating the entire time.
I can see the women have longer menstrual cycles and the men have always seemed a bit on flaccid side but even so I can see their sperm and ovaries deciding to stop working after X amount of kids. Kaname and Yuuki were born only a few years apart. It might be just a conscious decision of the purebloods not to have many children as they for the most part seem pretty apathetic towards their own plight anyway since they don't act. Assimiliation seems to me to be extremely unlikely due to their lifespan. If it played any part in the current situation I'd expected it to be minimal at best.

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So If there is a Burning Oven in your house, just move to a new one. That way you won't have to continuously fight a fire that is ever expanding and waste your efforts. Shizuka slaughtered a Human family, which is murder, as the VC is the vampire side representative, it would obviously force them into involvement (wasn't Rido trying to control her anyway?). while Kaname most likely left to set up the Vampire side of Cross Academy, which means he would have to go through the VC. Both cases forced the VC into the situation.
Maybe it just me but I'd rather that the 30 or so minutes to fix my stove than have to get a new house. Houses might grow on trees where your from but I have a little more respect for them. You're not always assured of find a new one and what will you do if an appliance there acts up? Ignore it again till you burn that house down? The VC was broken but instead of fixing it the purebloods let it rage out of control and its where I find them so foolish.

I don't know where you're going with the second part. I agree both Shizuka and Kaname went lolly-gagging around while the VC was doing it's thing.
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Old 2009-10-17, 12:16   Link #1124
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yeah i'm readin the manga and i'm still stuck at volume 4 but i have a Q's


Spoiler for manga scene ,,:


thx alot ^_^
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Old 2009-10-17, 15:36   Link #1125
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yeah i'm readin the manga and i'm still stuck at volume 4 but i have a Q's


Spoiler for manga scene ,,:


thx alot ^_^
At the end of V5. You're almost there.
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Old 2009-10-17, 18:32   Link #1126
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Maybe it just me but I'd rather that the 30 or so minutes to fix my stove than have to get a new house. Houses might grow on trees where your from but I have a little more respect for them. You're not always assured of find a new one and what will you do if an appliance there acts up? Ignore it again till you burn that house down? The VC was broken but instead of fixing it the purebloods let it rage out of control and its where I find them so foolish.

I don't know where you're going with the second part. I agree both Shizuka and Kaname went lolly-gagging around while the VC was doing it's thing.
Unfortunately, it would take a little longer than 30 minutes to take over, and then keep in control the entire Vampire society, Rather they would be engulfed fighting it. It's not just a small flame that can be handled quickly, it's a huge flame in the numbers of all of the vampires in society. It's not possible for the Purebloods to constantly have all the vampires in their control. If you can put out a raging Fire with a squirt bottle of water, go for it.
The VC is just full of elder vampires with larger families which would simply take their place. the Purebloods would have to reestablish monarchy (like Kaname) to prevent another VC from popping up. Obviously they weren't interested because the Kuran's stepped down. I don't mind that you call the Purebloods foolish, but you called the VC a plot hole, which it isn't.

With the second part, they both brought the VC into their situations, had they not gone and done something that would interfere with inter-species relations, they would have been left alone.

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on about this forever, So we should just agree to disagree.
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Old 2009-10-17, 19:03   Link #1127
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Unfortunately, it would take a little longer than 30 minutes to take over, and then keep in control the entire Vampire society, Rather they would be engulfed fighting it. It's not just a small flame that can be handled quickly, it's a huge flame in the numbers of all of the vampires in society. It's not possible for the Purebloods to constantly have all the vampires in their control. If you can put out a raging Fire with a squirt bottle of water, go for it.
It certainly is possible. That's what rulers do. They chose not to be that and instead to ignore the problems. Hence why they get what they deserve.

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The VC is just full of elder vampires with larger families which would simply take their place. the Purebloods would have to reestablish monarchy (like Kaname) to prevent another VC from popping up. Obviously they weren't interested because the Kuran's stepped down. I don't mind that you call the Purebloods foolish, but you called the VC a plot hole, which it isn't.
It certainly is a plothole. It hard for me to believe than any logical person would allow this to continue. The reason I keep putting down Purebloods is because I feel it is absurb for me to buy that they would allow such treatment of themselves when they are so powerful. We see what Purebloods doing in this story when crossed but then we're led to believe that they ignore these much more dangerous plots and to themselves. It doesn't make sense. It is a contradiction in there characterization. We can come up with all the theories we want to try to fill in the plothole but that doesn't mean that the hole isn't there and isn't gaping.


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With the second part, they both brought the VC into their situations, had they not gone and done something that would interfere with inter-species relations, they would have been left alone.

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on about this forever, So we should just agree to disagree.
That really has no real baring on this argument. Yes, they did involve the VC but the VC was certainly already plotting their downfall long before this. They should have directly taking on the VC instead of going after others which gave the VC valid excuses to employ it powers.
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Old 2009-10-17, 20:11   Link #1128
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It certainly is possible. That's what rulers do. They chose not to be that and instead to ignore the problems. Hence why they get what they deserve.
Breaking down the governing party will only lead to more problems for them.
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It certainly is a plothole. It hard for me to believe than any logical person would allow this to continue. The reason I keep putting down Purebloods is because I feel it is absurb for me to buy that they would allow such treatment of themselves when they are so powerful. We see what Purebloods doing in this story when crossed but then we're led to believe that they ignore these much more dangerous plots and to themselves. It doesn't make sense. It is a contradiction in there characterization. We can come up with all the theories we want to try to fill in the plothole but that doesn't mean that the hole isn't there and isn't gaping.
Common sense can easily address that. It's as simple as: Why do something that takes extra effort, and probably won't succeed, when there is a simpler solution?

Why have your peace interrupted when it doesn't have to be? If you have power do you have to use it? Even currently when Kaname takes out the VC and takes over they're still targeted, and treated disrespectfully. Should Kaname go on to kill the entire society then? The problems of their treatment extend beyond the VC taking them down only leads to more problems for them, which Kaname is willing to do.

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That really has no real baring on this argument. Yes, they did involve the VC but the VC was certainly already plotting their downfall long before this. They should have directly taking on the VC instead of going after others which gave the VC valid excuses to employ it powers.
It does, Because given the proper excuse the VC will meddle with the purebloods. Take that away, and they will not.

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-10-17 at 20:28.
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Old 2009-10-17, 21:01   Link #1129
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Breaking down the governing party will only lead to more problems for them..
Kaname did it in the end so you right it did lead to more problems but if done early and done correctly you can control them without this problems arising. None of this would have occurred if the VC was allowed to get out of control.

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Common sense can easily address that. It's as simple as: Why do something that takes extra effort, and probably won't succeed, when there is a simpler solution?.
Everything takes effort. Waking up in the morning, going to work, fixing problems that pop up. Who to say it wouldn't succeed if you just ignore a problem then certainly you can't expect the problem to fix it self. That is a complete and utter lack of common sense. Problems don't magically disappear when you ignore them.

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Why have your peace interrupted when it doesn't have to be? If you have power do you have to use it? Even currently when Kaname takes out the VC and takes over they're still targeted, and treated disrespectfully. Should Kaname go on to kill the entire society then? The problems of their treatment extend beyond the VC taking them down only leads to more problems for them, which Kaname is willing to do.
We see very good reasons to interrupt this so called peace. It was a sham. The VC were plotting the Purebloods downfall and were working with the hunters. This should be quite evident that the VC didn't wish peace from what happened with his family. Kaname himself pointed out there nature. Ignoring this threat is beyond silly. It's obvious that this situation would come to a head sooner or later.


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It does, Because given the proper excuse the VC will meddle with the purebloods. Take that away, and they will not.
The VC aren't going to throw away its plans because the Purebloods do nothing. They might have aggravated the situation but that because they chose not to oppose to council but to go after their own more petty grievances. While the knife wielding murder is right in front of them they chose instead to beat up the little child that accidentally scoffed up their shoe. It ridiculous to believe anyone could be more stupid.

I'm done. While I think Kaname did was extreme it certainly was 100x better than the apathy towards them that allowed them to get this far. He might fail in the end mainly because of his methods but at the very least he now has a chance. Before he was just pointlessly wasting away his days while the VC plotted his and his species downfall. Maybe I overestimated the Purebloods and inbreeding has made them all mentally retarded but still feels like a huge plothole to me. You can go on believing whatever you want.
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Old 2009-10-17, 21:53   Link #1130
Foreshadow
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The entire Society is after the Purebloods Not only the VC
It's not so simple that you can just kill one group off and call it a happy day. It's not even feasible to control the entire society constantly. It only builds more resentment towards the rulers in question. You eliminate some, more will take their place. What's the point? You sacrificed your regular life in return for constantly killing more and more threats? Would you be happy doing that? Had the Purebloods enjoyed it, then they would have kept the monarchy they had in place.

I would love to live my days in some kind of fake constructed peace than constantly fighting more and more threats to my existence. And when it was finally time for me to die, I would accept it. Because I had enjoyed what was left of my life.

Anyway, Nice Discussion We had. It's always nice to see another viewpoint on something.
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Old 2009-10-18, 14:55   Link #1131
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At the end of V5. You're almost there.
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Old 2009-10-23, 14:01   Link #1132
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Spoiler for Chapter 55:
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Old 2009-10-27, 15:46   Link #1133
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Chapter 55 is out people, discussion time!
Spoiler for Just in case?:
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Old 2009-10-27, 15:56   Link #1134
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Old 2009-10-27, 23:46   Link #1135
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I agree! I don't know what to make of it. I wish the chapter was longer!

Zero's wrist started to get agitated, it was obviously from Yuuki's touch, and I was like AWWWWWWW!, but I wonder what exactly the condition is, and what it means?

I loved seeing the Chairman again! And Ichijou!

Stuff happened, but then I felt like it's still building! And the whole Kaname/chess bit? Is Kaname regretting the whole mess he made by using everyone as pieces?
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Old 2009-10-28, 13:23   Link #1136
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The shit is about to hit the fan and i feel multiple peoples sins are going to come back and haunt them. Sara seems hint as to knowing that Kaname was responsible for Shizuka's death. I have no doubt that Sara is involved in whatever is going on however i suspect that she might have a partner in crime who has the same goals as she does to bring Kaname down.

Zero was right, the best course of action for now is to call off the party seal the area and look for clues. Either way once word gets out that not only was a pureblood killed (if that is what happen i have my doubts) but a Hunter was killed as well all hell is going to break loose. Right now they need to keep the information from leaking out. It obvious by now that a third party is at work here and i believe their one of their goals is to get the H.A. and V.C. AKA Kaname to start a conflict. There is always someone who benefits from conflicts.

Zero was definitely reacting to Yuki touch however i do not know why. Two possible guesses was he became emotional causing his blood to stir or his killing intent was so high that it caused it. Either way he reacted to something about it could just be her Pureblood presence. Zero is not going to let what happen to the hunter go lightly. I laughed my ass off when he told Yuki this was not a game and to back off. Yuki states that she is not the powerless Yuki Cross that didnt know anything before and she will protect her loved ones. I find it ironic because she is still in the dark about a lot and she still continues to be a weak heroine. I cant take her words seriously till she proves otherwise.

Kaname's chess game is continuing however we have a new player who seem quite formidable. I still dont trust Kaname and hes still hiding too much from everyone and hes still trying to manipulate everyone. I feel all the things hes done is going to come back on him in ways hes never dreamed. I believe of his weakness is the fact that hes killed another Pureblood in cold blood i believe this knowledge would make the rest of the high ranking vampires not trust him.

The suspense build up is quite good we can sense thing moving in the shadows and we can see some serious drama and possible bloodshed is coming up. I cant wait for all the hell to break loose Zero continues to be my favorite his lines are always so dead on. Though he should have suppressed his killing aura a little bit more with that many vampires around im sure all of them could sense it.
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Old 2009-10-28, 20:37   Link #1137
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I believe of his weakness is the fact that hes killed another Pureblood in cold blood i believe this knowledge would make the rest of the high ranking vampires not trust him.
None of the high ranking non-pureblood vampires trust any purebloods, period. And Sara, another pureblood, supposedly killed her fiance - so what Kaname did wasn't any different.

I don't think it's Kaname's chess game, per se, but a chess game that all the characters in VK are playing, including the Chairman. The only two who may not be playing are Yuuki and Zero (and, three, if you count Yuuki's friend). But, by not playing the chess game, does not mean that they are not pieces of the games itself. As I see it, by not "playing", does not mean that Zero and Yuuki are any better, they are just simply letting themselves be pawns - easily manipulated and useless. Although Zero is beginning to get a hold of his own fate, which is good for him.

Sometimes the one moving the pieces are not doing so out of ill intentions, but, rather, move them in order to protect them from being killed by the other player. However, by taking up this role, he placed himself in a bad light in the eyes of the audience for the sake of those he wanted to protect.
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Old 2009-10-28, 22:57   Link #1138
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Sometimes the one moving the pieces are not doing so out of ill intentions, but, rather, move them in order to protect them from being killed by the other player. However, by taking up this role, he placed himself in a bad light in the eyes of the audience for the sake of those he wanted to protect.
Yes, I see that too, when you put it that way. Especially when Ichijou explained how Kaname must have felt all those years. Still, Kaname is blinded by Yuuki-she's all he cares about, and everything around him is falling to pieces. I think at some point he's going to break.

I feel that at some point (hopefully in the near future) Zero needs to get over his oath that he would kill Yuuki and understand that Yuuki had no control over her transformation, and be on the same page with her again. I don't necessarily think Yuuki's weak. She just needs to find in herself who she can really trust in this world that's totally new to her. Personally, I can't imagine all the emotions and worries she must have. Worrying for Yori, feeling guilty and remorseful about Zero, taking in stride the fact that her adopted father is a Hunter, learning more about her past in Kaname, dealing with lust for blood. I mean, she still hasn't found out that Kaname isn't actually Kaname. She's really going to hit the floor when that happens.

I can honestly say, however, that I really don't know who she's going to back up in the end: Kaname or Zero. There's too many variables. Hino sensei has really confused me well!
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Old 2009-10-29, 11:27   Link #1139
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Yes, I see that too, when you put it that way. Especially when Ichijou explained how Kaname must have felt all those years. Still, Kaname is blinded by Yuuki-she's all he cares about, and everything around him is falling to pieces. I think at some point he's going to break.

I feel that at some point (hopefully in the near future) Zero needs to get over his oath that he would kill Yuuki...
What you said brings one thing clearly into perspective, both guys are clearly obsessed with her - more or less on the same line but just on different personal viewpoints (i.e. Zero is in denial that he truly loves her ). And, more importantly, she will be the downfall of both of them. Zero's fate may be salvageable but I believe Kaname will definitely fall because of Yuuki.

Now Ichiou's action, staying by Sara's side, is interesting. Either he's "keeping the enemy closer" or he resides with Sara out of loyalty.
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Old 2009-10-29, 15:23   Link #1140
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Zero's fate may be salvageable but I believe Kaname will definitely fall because of Yuuki.
I agree. I think Kaname's fall will be tragic, because I think in the end he'll regret what he did, while still loving Yuuki, and he'll realize that if he REALLY loves Yuuki, he'll giver her her freedom and the right to choose without being blinded. Or perhaps he'll offer himself as a sacrifice in some way as recompense for his manipulations. I think (or rather hope) that he will realize Zero is good for Yuuki and will eventually let go. Which would be sad. But it would be resolving, as long as Yuuki wasn't scarred by whatever happens to Kaname. Dang it! I just don't know Kaname's REAL intentions are.
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