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Old 2009-03-12, 19:45   Link #361
sakuraame
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After reading all these posts and theories, I think that Isshin must have been either a captain or a vice-captain during Shinji's time or directly after.

When Isshin is first shown in his shinigami form and talks to to Urahara about the Vizard (Ch. 188) he calls them, "the criminal group of ex-shinigami that uses forbidden spells to acquire the power of hollows. We never found their base of operations nor uncovered their goals. They're a tough one." (From scanlations, so if the official translations say something entirely different, I guess my point wouldn't hold.)

That sounds like an official definition given out by the government or something, well, I guess Yamamoto in this case. I would also guess that they would keep the fact that they believe some shinigami have gone hollow a pretty guarded secret and only higher ranking shinigami that were present at the time would know. And the fact that Urahara doesn't correct him means that Isshin was not directly involved with Urahara and co. at the time and doesn't know the true story and thus probably doesn't know about Urahara's involvement.

But the arrancar seem to be something known among shinigami, either from textbooks or from their superiors, because Renji yells at Ichigo for fighting against an opponent of which he had no information (Ch. 195). That and when Toushirou tells Ichigo about the arrancar the doesn't mention anything about it being top-secret or that he just found out. It reads like Rukia telling Ichigo about shinigami basics, albeit without the Chappy drawings. But mentioning of the Vizard doesn't come from anyone not directly involved with them. Isshin, Yoruichi, Urahara, Ichigo, Inoue, Rukia (?) and the Vizards themselves seem to be the only ones to make mention of the Vizards or know that they exist.

Thinking about it, Isshin being a vice-captain during Shinji's time and then being promoted to captain after would make sense. You would expect that Shinji could recognize the reiastu signatures of all the captains at the time, but I wouldn't expect Shinji to recognize the reiastu signatures of his peers' vice-captains too.

I don't have any theories about when Isshin left Soul Society and why because there is so little info about that, but I definitely think that Isshin was a pretty high ranking officer during Shinji's time.

Wow... this post is a lot longer than I thought it was going to be... sorry...
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Old 2009-03-12, 20:06   Link #362
Kyo69
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Originally Posted by Schnitzel View Post
doubt it.....she could save Ichigo and be still alive, she should have notice the fisher's presence.
~just my opinion...
Maybe she wanted to ignore him so that she wouldn't scare Ichigo, then she fought the hollow that used dirty tricks. Also, the fisher didn't take his desert and left Ichigo alone cuz he was injured after his fight with her. Well this is just speculation, but an explanation could be found.
I just really like the ideea of her being a shinigami.
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Could be... but then the only reason we see Isshin with shinigami clothes and what appears to be a captain's cloak would be to mindfuck the viewers/readers.
Which would make it epic level of lame.


And we know that because??
I didn't notice the captain cloak. It just seems kind of wrong. If Isshin was a real shinigami than it means he's actually dead and Ichigo and his sisters were conceived by an artificial body and a human/something else.
And we don't know that about Masaki it's just what I belive. Cuz she seems like a really enigmatic character and we still don't really know how she actually died.

Last edited by Kyo69; 2009-03-12 at 20:17.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:27   Link #363
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isshin is a capatain, atleast from the insignia and cape when he kills grand fisher. we don't know anything about misaki, we only know that she is ichigo's mom and she was killed by grand fisher. that is all.
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Old 2009-03-12, 22:28   Link #364
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In order to live as humans, both Isshin and Masaki would require a gigai to completely suppress their powers in order to hide their spiritual pressure and to have physical bodies. It could be that Masaki was just unable to get out of the gigai which made her weak and defenseless.

But more then likely, Masaki is just a human that Isshin saved or something as a soul reaper. They fell in love, blah, blah, etc.
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Old 2009-03-13, 09:59   Link #365
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It has been 20 years since he lost his powers. We might assume that he left soul society right about that time. Even if he didn’t & just quit his “job” at Seireitei. The problem is that the name KUROSAKI is not familiar to either any of the new nor the old (like Yamamoto, Ukitake & Shinsui) shinigami. Isshin can’t be THAT old & since he seems like he used to be a pretty high seat then he should have been known.
It's actually quite easy...
Isshin was once, until 20 years ago member of the royal guard.
Soul Society has no insight of the royal dimension and their members.

that also explains his unique coat and his power


Quote:
I don't have any theories about when Isshin left Soul Society and why because there is so little info about that, but I definitely think that Isshin was a pretty high ranking officer during Shinji's time.
When Isshin released his powers, Shinji stated that he doesn't know his rejatsu. This is one of the most important facts we know.
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Old 2009-03-13, 13:30   Link #366
sakuraame
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Originally Posted by Ryuuken View Post
It's actually quite easy...
Isshin was once, until 20 years ago member of the royal guard.
Soul Society has no insight of the royal dimension and their members.

that also explains his unique coat and his power
You're stating this as a theory and not as fact, correct? Because there isn't any evidence to prove this. The reason this currently works as a theory is precisely because there is "no insight of the royal dimension and their members" as you put it.

His coat and his power are hardly unique. If the Royal Guard's uniform is simply a regular shinigami's uniform with a captain's haori wrapped around one's arm then Kubo Tite might need to go back to the drawing board to design something more unique. The captain's coat on his arm was to drop to the bomb on readers that Ichigo's father is a shinigami and to prevent us from knowing what division he was in charge of, which would have been easy to find out if he simply wore it regularly. In response to his power, I would argue that a captain class shinigami could probably cleave Grand Fisher in half without too much problem. I don't see Kenpachi, Byakuya or Yamamoto having any problems. Ichigo could probably do it too if he could focus and calm down while facing his mother's killer for a few minutes.


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When Isshin released his powers, Shinji stated that he doesn't know his rejatsu. This is one of the most important facts we know.
True, but it still doesn't point to anything really substantial. It is still vague. I wouldn't expect Shinji to know everyone in Soul Society well enough to be able to recognize their reaitsu. It just means that Shiniji doesn't know who Isshin is. That just eliminates all the captains at the time for sure. He could still have been a vice-captain or a really high seated officer at the time, especially if he became a captain before the time he left Soul Society.
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Old 2009-03-13, 15:40   Link #367
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You're stating this as a theory and not as fact, correct?
Sure, but I'm betting my ass on it. =)
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Old 2009-03-13, 17:18   Link #368
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I think not only Isshin is from the Royal Guard. We could also count Urahara, remember when Urahara said the Vizards will do their part, the Soul Society will do their part and we will do our part which pretty much tells that Urahara, Yoruichi, Tessai, Ryuuken and Isshin are from the same group. I'm just not sure if that means the Royal Guard. It could mean another group yet to be unveiled.
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Old 2009-03-13, 17:23   Link #369
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ryuuken is a different beast, he hates the shinigami and rightfully so. He's always felt the quincy past was pointless due to his pragmatist nature but because it is an attempt to save the world he and isshin seem to have a bond that predates their childrens relationship which would be pretty cool when thats finally revealed. Unfortunately this all speculation and we just haven't really been given any pieces to the damn puzzle, and at least for me isshin, urahara, ryuuken are some of kubo's best characters next to zaraki, zangetsu and the vaizards. here's hoping the future will get us some information on these people.
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Old 2009-03-13, 17:30   Link #370
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Sure, but I'm betting my ass on it. =)
If he really were part of the Royal Guard...wouldn't it be kinda strange that they sorta just let him live happily ever after in the real world? (i'm not exactly sure what the Royal Guard entails...but, i'm pretty sure that if you're part of a really top secret organization/group/guard thing, it's definitely NOT that easy to get out of it)... U know, like kisuke's group, hte people who "left" are the ones jailed up or something like that, you don't have the option to leave. I just don't think the old geezer would let someone off so easily?

if anything, i think isshin, yourichi and urahara kisuke are all part of that secret organization or something (STILL PART OF IT), and the captains just think they left. These 3 all seem to be extremely powerful, so i wouldn't be surprised if they were told to go to the real world or somewhere to investigate certain things you know? But it was still kept a secret from those in SS (even from the captains).
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Old 2009-03-13, 19:16   Link #371
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
If he really were part of the Royal Guard...wouldn't it be kinda strange that they sorta just let him live happily ever after in the real world? (i'm not exactly sure what the Royal Guard entails...but, i'm pretty sure that if you're part of a really top secret organization/group/guard thing, it's definitely NOT that easy to get out of it)... U know, like kisuke's group, hte people who "left" are the ones jailed up or something like that, you don't have the option to leave. I just don't think the old geezer would let someone off so easily?
firstofall: what old geezer ? Yama-jii has no jurisdiction in the royal dimension... that would be "the king of soul society".
Well and as for that... Isshin realized sooner or later that protecting the living is most important, like Ryuuken always did. He fell in love with Ichigo's Mom.
As a result, you may call it punishment, The king decided to rob all of his "spirit potential" (reyoku or something like that) / powers, so that supposedly he would never ever regain them. But after 20 years it did happen, which is why Ryuuken was kinda shocked.
Thats my theory for ya
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Old 2009-03-13, 20:44   Link #372
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It's actually quite easy...
Isshin was once, until 20 years ago member of the royal guard.
Soul Society has no insight of the royal dimension and their members.
Soul Society has no insight into the royal family, that doesn't include the royal guard. From Shunsui's description, Royal Guard members are simply chosen from among the Gotei 13 captains. It was no secret when Hikifune, the former captain of the 12th division, was promoted to the guard. If the members are made up of former captains, Yamamoto and possibly Shunsui, Utitake and Unohana should know a good deal about them.

Don't know how much the Gotei 13 cooperates with the Royal Guard, if they cooperate at all, but you could say the same about the Kidou Corps. Except for the Pendulum arc, they were never shown to work with the Gotei 13.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sakuraame
After reading all these posts and theories, I think that Isshin must have been either a captain or a vice-captain during Shinji's time or directly after.
Well, I've always been curious about the captain of the 10th division who was mentioned by Shunsui during the Pendulum arc to have died but who had not (unlike the 11th, 12th and 3rd division captains) been replaced as of the beginning of the arc nor at the end 10 years later. IMO, there's a chance that Isshin either replaced the 10th division captain sometime after the TBTP arc (before Hitsu) or was actually the 10th division captain that "died".

Isshin either being a former-captain or a former Royal Guard..both seem equally plausible at this point.
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Old 2009-03-14, 03:51   Link #373
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Isshin lost his powers 20 years ago, but he wears an unknown captain's haori. Hitsugaya became a captain sometime around 20 years ago.

My guess? Isshin was captain of Squad 10 until 20 years ago when he lost his powers. I'm assuming that Soul Society assumes he's dead and I mean "died a horrible death so there's no way he could have survived" dead, which might explain why no one from SS has recognized.

EDIT: The last part of the post above mine actually adds to my point.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Well, I've always been curious about the captain of the 10th division who was mentioned by Shunsui during the Pendulum arc to have died but who had not (unlike the 11th, 12th and 3rd division captains) been replaced as of the beginning of the arc nor at the end 10 years later. IMO, there's a chance that Isshin either replaced the 10th division captain sometime after the TBTP arc (before Hitsu) or was actually the 10th division captain that "died".

Isshin either being a former-captain or a former Royal Guard..both seem equally plausible at this point.
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Old 2009-03-14, 08:07   Link #374
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Isshin lost his powers 20 years ago, but he wears an unknown captain's haori. Hitsugaya became a captain sometime around 20 years ago.

My guess? Isshin was captain of Squad 10 until 20 years ago when he lost his powers. I'm assuming that Soul Society assumes he's dead and I mean "died a horrible death so there's no way he could have survived" dead, which might explain why no one from SS has recognized.

EDIT: The last part of the post above mine actually adds to my point.
Again your ignoreing the fact that Rukia would know everyone that has been a captain for about the last 50 years on sight.
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Old 2009-03-14, 12:31   Link #375
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also I forgot to add:

Of course, everyone knows this: Ryuuken hates Shinigami, but hangs out with Isshin. And Isshin lost his powers ( or they were suspended), and he is not within the royal jurisdiction or soul society anymore.

and this fact of course breeds the question why that is...
Of course we know that there are an awful lot of things going wrong in SS especially with room 46. ( and the war against the Qunicy obviously)
But at the end of the day SS is doing good things are they not ?

Aizen also has ambitions, and doesn't give a shit about SS.
He said that it was "to reach the heights", though this is most likely true, there must be more to it than that. A reason why he wants to reach the king...
A reason why mister justice himself, Tousen, accompanies Aizen
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Old 2009-03-14, 14:51   Link #376
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Of course we know that there are an awful lot of things going wrong in SS especially with room 46. ( and the war against the Qunicy obviously)
But at the end of the day SS is doing good things are they not ?
While I agree with you that a lot of things have been /are going wrong in SS and with room 46-it seems really a dumb way of running things if you apparently don't have any contact between room 46 and the outside except for ?? what? Hell butterflies or pneumatic tubes?? I have no idea how they communicate but it obviously was a idiotic way.

But I don't think the war against the Quincys was wrong. That is if what we know is true and Quincy truly destroy and annihilate souls (and not just send them back into the soul flow). Interestingly (or bad writing) we haven't heard anyone mentioning that fact in the series - Ishida is killing hollows by the hundreds and noone seems to care anymore.

From the episode 210 thread:
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Isshin, Urahara, Yoruichi, Vaizards... they seem so conveniently placed at certain areas, don't you think?
A very good point. I've wondered myself why everyone was gathering in this town or for that matter what makes Karakura Town so special that it is to be used as the birthground fopr the King's Key (or did Aizen pick Karakura just because it would piss off out protagonists even more...?)

It is strange as well, if you see that SS "let" Isshin, Urahara, Youruichi and the Vaizards just live in peace. I say "let" because at least Urahara isn't really trying to hide and is even trading with SS and shinigamis.
On the other hand, Soi Fon's first reaction to seeing Yoruichi is to kill her.
But then again SS usually doesn't tell anyone their (secret) plans and Soi Fon seemed more angry about being left behind and not because Yoruichi was a traitor to SS. And seeing how Yoruichi comes and goes as she pleases and interacts with members of SS it doesn't seem that she's wanted that much anyway.

So hopefully, Isshin and co being in Karakura isn't just happy coincidence, but means that Yamamoto isn't as alzheimer ridden as we fear and actually has been part of a plan from the start.
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Old 2009-03-14, 16:30   Link #377
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Originally Posted by Meisterdieb View Post
But I don't think the war against the Quincys was wrong. That is if what we know is true and Quincy truly destroy and annihilate souls (and not just send them back into the soul flow). Interestingly (or bad writing) we haven't heard anyone mentioning that fact in the series - Ishida is killing hollows by the hundreds and noone seems to care anymore.
But killing a whole race because of this is not the right thing to do of course... Qunicys weren't evil D=
As for Ishida I mean... it only a problem if a whole species does this... not one or two people...


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A very good point. I've wondered myself why everyone was gathering in this town or for that matter what makes Karakura Town so special that it is to be used as the birthground fopr the King's Key (or did Aizen pick Karakura just because it would piss off out protagonists even more...?)
It was stated that you need a "spiritual enhanced" area of souls within the living world, which HAPPENS TO BE Karakura Town.
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Old 2009-03-14, 16:35   Link #378
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But I don't think the war against the Quincys was wrong. That is if what we know is true and Quincy truly destroy and annihilate souls (and not just send them back into the soul flow). Interestingly (or bad writing) we haven't heard anyone mentioning that fact in the series - Ishida is killing hollows by the hundreds and noone seems to care anymore.
Good point. I hadn't even thought about why the Quincy clan was destroyed and how that effects Ishida now. I think that Ishida might be left alone because they are in the middle of a war and one more solider is always a good thing, whether or not he destroys souls. I would also think they let him slide because he's one Quincy and not an an entire clan. Ishida might not be doing too might damage to the balance of souls in the long run. It was an entire clan of Quincy, each killing a substantial amount of hollows I assume, that was causing Soul Society to freak out about the balance of souls. We are never told about the exact number of people in the Quincy clan, but I would guess it was a pretty big number if it was considered a war.

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It is strange as well, if you see that SS "let" Isshin, Urahara, Youruichi and the Vaizards just live in peace. I say "let" because at least Urahara isn't really trying to hide and is even trading with SS and shinigamis.

So hopefully, Isshin and co being in Karakura isn't just happy coincidence, but means that Yamamoto isn't as alzheimer ridden as we fear and actually has been part of a plan from the start.
I was always under the impression that Urahara was working in the black market. In chapter 16, Rukia says to Urahara that "you guys are working outside the law anyways" (its the scene where Rukia takes Kon's pill out of Urahara's hands and says that she's okay with the mod soul and won't hold Urahara responsible if something happens). And Rukia wasn't introduced to Urahara by her superiors. He approached her offering her a gigai after she gave her powers to Ichigo. So since he doesn't technically work with SS, he could be easy to ignore for those that do know that Urahara is in Karakura. And I think the official line is that he is exiled/banned from SS. While he himself can't step inside SS, having connections to SS isn't banned explicitly, even if it isn't exactly kosher, but one could view that as a loophole. And Yoruichi just doens't really care if she's been banned or not... she's a cat. She goes where she pleases.

I definitely think that all these major players in Karakura isn't a coincidence. Yamamoto says that Karakura is a "juureichi" which is a "singular spiritual point in the human world whose location changes with time. In every era, the spiritually heterogeneous land in the human world where the most spiritual beings tend to gather is given that name." (Ch. 223) Given the history leading up to these events, I'm not surprised that all these people are here, either on orders from Yamamoto or on their own, given the nature of Karakura. But now that we know that Yamamoto and Urahara worked together to help get captains to Hueco Mundo, I wouldn't be surprised if Isshin is in Karakura under Yamamoto's orders. Yamamoto sometimes seems to know more than he lets on, but has to act a certain way because he has to uphold Gotei 13 and Soul Society laws.

But is Karakura a juureichi because all these people are here or did it become a juureichi after all these crazy people showed up?

EDIT: dang, Ryuuken you beat me to the punch
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Old 2009-03-14, 22:41   Link #379
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But killing a whole race because of this is not the right thing to do of course... Qunicys weren't evil D=
As for Ishida I mean... it only a problem if a whole species does this... not one or two people...
Yes, I agree. That's SS's genocide wasn't the answer.
But we don't know how exactly they came to blows. If SS just plainly attacked the Quincy from one day to the next, then it is certainl yvery wrong.
On the other hand, if the first asked the Quincys to stop their slaughter and only took to wiping them out as a last resort (sure they kill a whole clan but they save all those souls, plus the Quincys may die but their souls get reborn as well).

Seeing how SS acted throughout the series, I fear that method 1 was how it went down. I still hope they tried reasoning and talking first (method 2).


One idea why Isshin and Ryuuken are friends and why Isshin is exiled that I haven't seen anyone mention is that Isshin saved either Ryuuken or his family or ancestors from being killed by the other shinigamis. I know the Shinigami Quincy war is longer ago than the 20 years Isshin is in exile (do we know roughly when that war happened - from the flashbacks we see I get the medieval feel) but either Isshin was only found out very much later or 20 years ago some shinigami tried to kill the last Quincys and Isshin helped the Quincys.
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Old 2009-03-15, 11:28   Link #380
Sabaku Kyu
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Yes, I agree. That's SS's genocide wasn't the answer.
But we don't know how exactly they came to blows. If SS just plainly attacked the Quincy from one day to the next, then it is certainl yvery wrong.
On the other hand, if the first asked the Quincys to stop their slaughter and only took to wiping them out as a last resort (sure they kill a whole clan but they save all those souls, plus the Quincys may die but their souls get reborn as well).

Seeing how SS acted throughout the series, I fear that method 1 was how it went down. I still hope they tried reasoning and talking first (method 2).

One idea why Isshin and Ryuuken are friends and why Isshin is exiled that I haven't seen anyone mention is that Isshin saved either Ryuuken or his family or ancestors from being killed by the other shinigamis. I know the Shinigami Quincy war is longer ago than the 20 years Isshin is in exile (do we know roughly when that war happened - from the flashbacks we see I get the medieval feel) but either Isshin was only found out very much later or 20 years ago some shinigami tried to kill the last Quincys and Isshin helped the Quincys.
It was method 2. SS told the Quincy more than once to cease killing hollows but they continued and the shinigami were forced to wipe most of them out about 200 years prior to the beginning of the story.

After the destruction of the majority of the Quincy the war was over, and the remaining members of the clan were actually under Soul Society's official protection until Ishida's grandfather (who was thought to be the last surviving Quincy) was killed. Mayuri actually played a big part in killing off the remaining members, but he wasn't acting on SS's orders.

So it's not likely Isshin would've have been exiled for saving Ryuuken or his family, but it seems likely that Ryuuken and Isshin fought alongside each other at some point (or maybe against each other).
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