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Old 2009-03-15, 15:11   Link #381
Byakko1011
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Again your ignoreing the fact that Rukia would know everyone that has been a captain for about the last 50 years on sight.
"Again"? That was my first post in months, so relax my friend.

Also, you ignored what I said at the end of my post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byakko1011 View Post
I'm assuming that Soul Society assumes he's dead and I mean "died a horrible death so there's no way he could have survived" dead, which might explain why no one from SS has recognized him.
And to add to that, we have no idea whether or not he is actually using a gigai or what kind of gigai his actually is. Urahara could've invented a gigai that ages like a normal human would, which could also explain why Rukia wouldn't recognize him. Then, there's also the possibility that he just flat out changed his appearance. Nothing is stopping anyone in SS from shaving or getting a nice, clean haircut. Also, we're assuming that Rukia knows how they look and is able to recognize every captain from the last fifty years.

If SS thought Isshin was dead and he came to the world of the living, a beard and a new hairstyle may have done the trick...well a name change helps.

Last edited by Byakko1011; 2009-03-15 at 15:49.
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Old 2009-03-15, 15:54   Link #382
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If I know KT he will have come up with something we all didn't think of.

This has been said before, but Isshin said he was Captain level not a captain. AS I remember there are plenty of shinigami in the SS that are captain level but not a captain. So he could have been a second or third seat or part of a special group such as 0 devision, or maybe even kido corps. I still think he was a captain because I would like for him to be.
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Old 2009-03-15, 15:58   Link #383
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But doesn't he have a captain's haori wrapped on his arm?<-chapter 187 page 2,same for 188, there's no division number on it though.
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Old 2009-03-15, 16:01   Link #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byakko1011 View Post



And to add to that, we have no idea whether or not he is actually using a gigai or what kind of gigai his actually is. Urahara could've invented a gigai that ages like a normal human would, which could also explain why Rukia wouldn't recognize him. Then, there's also the possibility that he just flat out changed his appearance. Nothing is stopping anyone in SS from shaving or getting a nice, clean haircut. Also, we're assuming that Rukia knows how they look and is able to recognize every captain from the last fifty years.

If SS thought Isshin was dead and he came to the world of the living, a beard and a new hairstyle may have done the trick...well a name change helps.
Thats a load of bullcrap.
It easy, Shinigami sense rejatsu, everyone does anytime. Every shinigami emits rejatsu ANYTIME (only uraharas cloak could stop this for as long as you wear it). Also rejatsu is unique like DNA, naturally

so we can assume that all person that met Isshin of felt his rejatsu at this point, were never together in gotei 13 at the same time.
this includes rukia, shinji and all those guys

its easy for me: he is ancient, kinda as old as unohana retsu and got into zero division (the royal guard) before shinji even entered gotei 13... which makes it like a couple of decades before "turn back the pendulum"
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Old 2009-03-15, 16:44   Link #385
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But doesn't he have a captain's haori wrapped on his arm?<-chapter 187 page 2,same for 188, there's no division number on it though.
It was white, It looked like a haori, but it was not a haori because like you said it did not have a number on it. I'll say it again, KT will probably pull something out of his ass that we did not think of. My money is on that he was the captain of or in the zero div. but we shouldn't rule out the unexpected. That is all I am trying to say.
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Old 2009-03-15, 16:58   Link #386
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It was white, It looked like a haori, but it was not a haori because like you said it did not have a number on it. I'll say it again, KT will probably pull something out of his ass that we did not think of. My money is on that he was the captain of or in the zero div. but we shouldn't rule out the unexpected. That is all I am trying to say.
His haori is ripped. Could be that the part with the division number was torn off?
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Old 2009-03-15, 18:08   Link #387
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
His haori is ripped. Could be that the part with the division number was torn off?
But whats holding it is a shoulder plate of some sorts, like from an armor
and who wears armors ? right, (royal) knights (guards)

its kinda obvious
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Old 2009-03-15, 18:16   Link #388
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I'm sorry, but did anyone have already mention what was told in one of the lastest episodes -
when Urahara comes to Mayuri and he implies that Hiroyi is a boy, the one they talked about.
Something makes me think that this boy was Isshin.
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Old 2009-03-16, 02:12   Link #389
Byakko1011
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Originally Posted by Ryuuken View Post
Thats a load of bullcrap.
It easy, Shinigami sense rejatsu, everyone does anytime. Every shinigami emits rejatsu ANYTIME (only uraharas cloak could stop this for as long as you wear it). Also rejatsu is unique like DNA, naturally

so we can assume that all person that met Isshin of felt his rejatsu at this point, were never together in gotei 13 at the same time.
this includes rukia, shinji and all those guys

its easy for me: he is ancient, kinda as old as unohana retsu and got into zero division (the royal guard) before shinji even entered gotei 13... which makes it like a couple of decades before "turn back the pendulum"
Actually, you're forgetting that one of the reasons that Urahara was said to have been thrown out of Soul Society, aside from the vizard incident, was for creating a gigai that could hide spiritual pressure and one that would hide it through diminishing a Shinigami's reiatsu. Rukia was given a gigai after she gave Ichigo her powers, that would conceal her powers and eventually turn her into a normal human, which is why it was so hard to find Rukia in the first part of Bleach. It was also meant to help hide the orb thing, whose name escapes me, that Aizen took out of Rukia's body after the Byakuya/Ichigo fight.

Holy crap, I can't believe I forgot that fact in my last post. The type of gigai that Urahara put Rukia in was one that was meant to hide reiatsu and gradually take away a shinigami's powers, thus turning them into a human, which was his plan for permanently sealing the Hogyoku (I think that's it's name) away and thus keeping it out of Aizen's grasp. Now that kind of gigai was used on Rukia for a few months and she almost completely lost her powers and it took her a short while for them to return. Now we have no idea whether or not it's effects would wear off after let's say twenty years, because so far we know that only Rukia has used it. Either that or his powers completely disappeared, he switched to a reiatsu hiding gigai because I'm pretty sure Urahara only made one of those types of gigai. Actually, that might work considering that without that same gigai, it would be possible that his powers could return and that would also explain why Rukia didn't sense it after he regained his powers.



My theory:

During a mission to the world of the living, Isshin meets Masaki Kurosaki, who is able to see him due to her large reiatsu, and they fall in love. Isshin, wanting to settle down and live his life out as a normal human with her, seeks out Urahara and uses a gigai that should drain his powers and turn him into a human. Eventually the effects of the gigai wear off, by either the discontinuiing of its use or through its effect just wearing off, and Isshin begins gaining his powers back.


Take from it what you will, but my main focus is on the gigai allowing him to successfully hide in Karakura Town. Also, it can explain why he "lost" his powers. At this point, I don't care whether he came from Squad 0 or Squad 10, this theory is based solely on 1) The use of Urahara's special Gigai 2) Isshin's love of Masaki 3) The loss and concealment of his powers.
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Old 2009-03-17, 03:40   Link #390
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Originally Posted by 7runks View Post
I think not only Isshin is from the Royal Guard. We could also count Urahara, remember when Urahara said the Vizards will do their part, the Soul Society will do their part and we will do our part which pretty much tells that Urahara, Yoruichi, Tessai, Ryuuken and Isshin are from the same group. I'm just not sure if that means the Royal Guard. It could mean another group yet to be unveiled.
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
if anything, i think isshin, yourichi and urahara kisuke are all part of that secret organization or something (STILL PART OF IT), and the captains just think they left. These 3 all seem to be extremely powerful, so i wouldn't be surprised if they were told to go to the real world or somewhere to investigate certain things you know? But it was still kept a secret from those in SS (even from the captains).
It's interesting that a few people seem to think that Urahara and co. are in an actual official group and not just occasionally working together. When reading that part I had always thought that Urahara was using "us" pretty loosely, just referring these crazy powerful people that have all congregated in Karakura. But it is interesting to think of them as an actual collective group.

Did anyone else feel like it was a reunion of sorts for Isshin and Urahara? Like they hadn't seen each other for a while? Like since maybe Isshin had his powers sealed? But even if that was the case, it doesn't really prove or disprove anything. Just thought it was interesting. Or maybe I'm just reading it wrong.


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Originally Posted by MAQI View Post
This has been said before, but Isshin said he was Captain level not a captain. AS I remember there are plenty of shinigami in the SS that are captain level but not a captain. So he could have been a second or third seat or part of a special group such as 0 devision, or maybe even kido corps. I still think he was a captain because I would like for him to be.
Is that what it says in the official translation? Because the scanlation that I have access to doesn't talk about a Captain's level, but makes it sound like he's referring to himself as a captain. He says "shinigami captains all consciously keep their soul cutters in a manageable size, or else everyone would be holding soul cutters the size of sky scrapers." (Ch. 187) While he doesn't come out and say that he was a captain, the way he tells Grand Fisher about the capabilities of shinigami captains insinuates that he was one. But if the official translation says "captain level" than that might mean something else.

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Originally Posted by MAQI View Post
It was white, It looked like a haori, but it was not a haori because like you said it did not have a number on it. I'll say it again, KT will probably pull something out of his ass that we did not think of. My money is on that he was the captain of or in the zero div. but we shouldn't rule out the unexpected. That is all I am trying to say.
It doesn't look exactly like a captain's haori, but I do have some faith in the visual hints that Kubo Tite likes to give. Clues to the fact that Urahara was one time a captain was written into his choice of clothes from the get-go. People pointed out the fact that it resembled a captain's haori except that it was a different color and didn't have a number. They also began to question whether or not Urahara was once a captain when his zanpakutou was introduced and it become obvious that he was pretty strong. So I believe that the fact that it looks so similar to a captain's haori is an unspoken clue from Kubo Tite and could be read as such. I've said it before, but if Kubo Tite wanted to hint at the fact that Isshin wasn't a normal shinigami, why not draw him in an entirely different uniform? That would sure get the rumors going. That and I just imagined the uniform of the Royal Guard/Zero Div. to look different than the attire of other shinigamis. Why not get a swanky new uniform along with a promotion? Of course Kubo Tite could pull a fast one like you say and make him into something that nobody thought of.

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Originally Posted by Ryuuken View Post
But whats holding it is a shoulder plate of some sorts, like from an armor
and who wears armors ? right, (royal) knights (guards)

its kinda obvious
Because no one knows what the uniform of the Royal Guard looks like except for Kubo Tite, the argument that armor automatically = Royal Guard doesn't work. Him wearing armor isn't really evidence of anything besides the fact that it adds to another way to wear a haori. For all we know, the Royal Guard's uniform could be pink tutus and purple spandex. Well, not really, but you get the point.
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Old 2009-03-17, 11:06   Link #391
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Originally Posted by sakuraame View Post
For all we know, the Royal Guard's uniform could be pink tutus and purple spandex. Well, not really, but you get the point.
if this turns out to be the actual uniform, it's totally your fault.

anyways. What if his uniform is slowly reforming itself as he is regaining his power? it could possibly explain why his haori is in such a condition.
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:05   Link #392
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A shinigami's uniform doesn't have anything to do with their soul, as proved by Inoue and Ishida in the SS arc when they dressed up as Shinigami-and Ichigo tends to tear his clothes to shreads in most fights, but I really think he just gets Ishida to sew him a new one.
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:15   Link #393
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Ryuuken View Post
But whats holding it is a shoulder plate of some sorts, like from an armor
and who wears armors ? right, (royal) knights (guards)

its kinda obvious
Or he's just wearing the armband to hold his haori around his shoulder because the sleeves have been torn off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel
A shinigami's uniform doesn't have anything to do with their soul, as proved by Inoue and Ishida in the SS arc when they dressed up as Shinigami-and Ichigo tends to tear his clothes to shreads in most fights, but I really think he just gets Ishida to sew him a new one.
Are you sure? That makes it hard to explain how Ichigo emerged from the shattered shaft wearing a shingami uniform whereas he was just wearing a t-shirt and jeans when he was first thrown down there.
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Old 2009-03-17, 13:41   Link #394
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Are you sure? That makes it hard to explain how Ichigo emerged from the shattered shaft wearing a shingami uniform whereas he was just wearing a t-shirt and jeans when he was first thrown down there.
Aaand that's what we call a plothole
If captains achieve greater shinigami-ness and just magically sprout a white haori above the black hakama, Ichigo would have one already.
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Old 2009-03-17, 15:18   Link #395
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i'd say Orihime dressing as a shinigami to be more of a plot hole rather than the other way around. Ichigo's outfit changes when he enters bankai. perhaps they are given a special seal or some such to produce a captain's haori when they are promoted to the rank
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Old 2009-03-17, 15:32   Link #396
sakuraame
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if this turns out to be the actual uniform, it's totally your fault.
HAHA. I would then push the blame to Kubo Tite for making use of such a left field idea. And then make him pay up for encroaching on my intellectual property. J/K

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
A shinigami's uniform doesn't have anything to do with their soul, as proved by Inoue and Ishida in the SS arc when they dressed up as Shinigami-and Ichigo tends to tear his clothes to shreads in most fights, but I really think he just gets Ishida to sew him a new one.
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Are you sure? That makes it hard to explain how Ichigo emerged from the shattered shaft wearing a shingami uniform whereas he was just wearing a t-shirt and jeans when he was first thrown down there.
I agree that the shinigami uniform is indicative of a shinigami soul and that Ichigo emerging from the shattered shaft in shinigami uniform shows how his soul has changed from that of normal human to shinigami. The fact that Inoue and Ishida dressed up as shinigami reminds us that it's a still a uniform and can be taken off. It's like the soul has changed so that the spiritual body's appearance also changes, but no harm is done to the soul if only the uniform itself gets damaged.

If though I agree with you that Ishida could and probably does mend Ichigo's shinigami uniform from time to time, it doesn't explain how he emerges with what looks like a brand new uniform every time he pops out of his body.

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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Aaand that's what we call a plothole
If captains achieve greater shinigami-ness and just magically sprout a white haori above the black hakama, Ichigo would have one already.
Ichigo wouldn't magically sprout a captain's haori because the distinction of "captain" is an artificially-Gotei 13 made title and the haoris are given to those elected. If the Gotei 13 didn't exist, no one would be at "captain's level" because captains wouldn't exist. They would just be crazy strong. Captain isn't another level of shinigami, but a distinction/category that has been made up to classify shinigami.

But I do agree that it is a little plotholey (I think I made up a new word...). I would think that even if a captain entered a gigai without wearing their haori, they would probably still be drawn emerging out of the gigai with their haori.

A distinctive uniform is important because it visually shows where the characters' loyalty lies and where they identify themselves, granted they aren't trying to fool everyone like Aizen. But when Aizen's ambitions were made clear, he is shown changing his appearance and his uniform, Tousen and Gin also sprout the new uniform. The fact that Isshin is shown in shinigami garb with a possible captain's haori points to his involvement with Soul Society. Even though there is no info on the appearances of anyone involved with he Royal Dimension, an assumption of mine is that their uniform is entirely different. It would visually show that they belong to and identity with the Royal Dimension and not Soul Society.
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Old 2009-03-17, 15:48   Link #397
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i'd say Orihime dressing as a shinigami to be more of a plot hole rather than the other way around. Ichigo's outfit changes when he enters bankai. perhaps they are given a special seal or some such to produce a captain's haori when they are promoted to the rank
In Turn Back The Pendulum we see Shinji putting on the haori without any mumbo jumbo.
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Old 2009-03-17, 16:03   Link #398
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yes, the uniform can be taken on and off. but i am suggesting the origin of the haori comes from the soul itself. either by some kind of spell that "promotes" them to a captain thus producing the captain outfit.
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Old 2009-03-17, 17:24   Link #399
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Isshin haori
1)For one he could be just wearig it that way for fun. Not all the captain's wear it all the time or similarily. Shunsui and Zaraki come to mind.
2) I don't see this "armor" some of the people here are convinced is there. Having ONE piece of wood (or whatever it is) on your arm is in no way indicative of there having to be more pieces or of some armor reforming.

Ichigo's shinigami clothes
Didn't Ichigo always transform into a shinigami? From episode 1 on he manifests with the black clothes.
Also, during the TBTP arc we learn that clothes are somehow part of the souls. Which makes me wonder why Yoruichi starts out as a naked chick when she shapechanges and where she then gets her clothes from all of a sudden.

And you'd have to wonder why people seem to change clothes. We at least see Renji walking around in some night clothes in SS

Isshin's background
Either Tite Kubo has placed some hints, then Isshin has to be something we know about (and we actually don't know zilch about royal guards or dimension except that they exists).
Or he just introduces something completely new - but then we wouldn't have a way to know this. Maybe someone had a lucky guess, but it would be just that: lucky. guess.

For all we know TK could reveal Isshin is the King of the Pedobear Alliance.
And a cloak bound around the arm is the official uniform.
The hints were there: he is kinda coming on to his daughters.
And look at the Prince of the Pedobears: ichigo has quite the loli army following him around.
I rest my case.
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Old 2009-03-17, 20:31   Link #400
Sabaku Kyu
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yes, the uniform can be taken on and off. but i am suggesting the origin of the haori comes from the soul itself. either by some kind of spell that "promotes" them to a captain thus producing the captain outfit.

I'd say the black hakama is the main indicator of shinigami powers. When Rukia gave her powers to Ichigo, her hakama disappeared and she was left wearing the white kimono underneath, which she also wore throughout the SS arc while she had no powers. Whether the captain haori is linked to the soul is questionable, the major obstacle with that theory is that Kenpachi wears the haori of the captain he killed to get the position (which is why it's frayed like Isshin's).

Outfit changes that are the result of bankai (like Renji and Ichigo's) definitely are linked to power. If the shinigami is near death, the outfit will revert to the normal uniform. For the other clothing, I'm starting to agree w/ Kafriel that Kubo switches back and forth on whether shinigami uniforms are just normal clothing, or linked with the soul based on convenience. Like sakuraame said, they're used mainly to show affiliation, characters that are supposed to be ambiguous don't wear uniforms at all despite having powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meisterdieb
Either Tite Kubo has placed some hints, then Isshin has to be something we know about (and we actually don't know zilch about royal guards or dimension except that they exists).
The royal guard is basically the shinigami equivalent of the vastrolorde mystery. We know that the VL exist, the question is whether some of the arrancar already introduced might actually be VL, or whether they will all be new characters. The difference is that there are many arrancar who could possibly VL. Isshin is the only shinigami we know of with the possibility of being a royal guard.
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