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Old 2006-10-31, 10:42   Link #21
^_Usagi_^
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Christianity is a joke,
even though I might share your view, not everyone does.

Where di you get this "left out part"?
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Old 2006-10-31, 10:55   Link #22
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It can be found in the uncut version of the Book of Revelation. I'll see if I can dig up the link.
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Old 2006-10-31, 11:02   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Aiden
Just out of curiosity, who out here that opposes Kira's ideas is a christian? (cause as far as I see it now, your these two are exactly the same)
You seriously don't want to continue this discussion..
It's too.. volatile..
And BTW, it's against the rules.
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Old 2006-10-31, 11:08   Link #24
^_Usagi_^
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You seriously don't want to continue this discussion..
It's too.. volatile..
And BTW, it's against the rules.
somebody just need to ruin my fun
I'll stop it when you tell me what volatile means. heh.

But I was being curios without the insultive side, but actualy wanted people to question whether Kira & xian God is any dif (besides one failing... or is it both?...)
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Old 2006-10-31, 11:28   Link #25
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Going off topic
Spoiler for on god and Kira:
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Old 2006-10-31, 12:08   Link #26
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Originally Posted by mantidor View Post
Its a complex issue, personally I think that no human has a moral ground high enough to kill anyone, no matter what, yet I would find impossible to not use the Death Note if it ever falls in my hands, Im almost sure we all have our list of people the world would be better without, as much as I would feel terrible about it, Im willing to do it, at the very least, the people I care about would be in a better world, its a price fair enough in my eyes..
I agree partially with you, I never supported the ideals of Killing the criminals as a way of punishment. But I donít think Humans has the right to kill because the crimes others have committed, no matter how bad it was.

So even if Lights reasons are god intentioned, I donít agree with the approach he has on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azuma Denton View Post
One thing i want to ask Light, "Will u be able to kill your sister if she becomes a criminal?" Since her sister is the most important person to him.
I think he made it clear in Episode 2 that he kill his family if necessarily, So I donít think he would hesitate to Kill his sister if she became what he is trying to get rid of.
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Old 2006-10-31, 12:12   Link #27
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He's targeting criminals that are already in the slammer.. what good does it do..
If they were criminals from the outside it would be all heroic and such but because they're locked in they're cells serving time.. it's just mass murder..
Really?

The guy who was holding those kids hostages wasn't exactly in the slammer. Neither was that bank robber who later died. Then there was also that thug who was trying to rape that girl.

I agree though that he became drunk with his power though. Though the question remains whether or not the good people would've died if they had not targeted him. A docile spiderl does not strike if it is not harmed.

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, who out here that opposes Kira's ideas is a christian? (cause as far as I see it now, your these two are exactly the same)
Not even close. Say if God/Jesus was doing the death notes he would never EVER target innocent people who opposed him. Actually I'm not even sure if he would ever do something on this magnitude. NOTE: I mean in relation to Death Note.

If you want to relate to real life, I doubt anyone would actually say that some guy was responsible for this "unknown" deaths and be able to catch him.
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Old 2006-10-31, 12:35   Link #28
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Say if God/Jesus was doing the death notes he would never EVER target innocent people
But he did order the Israelites to destroy the other nations. I repeat DESTROY, no matter if kids or women (especially women should be killed) (+he also punished Israelites if they actually left people alive). Ya sure they might have been pretty bad & sinful, but NOT ALL (if we just take little children for example)! It's as when God punished the descendands (basically innocent, unless getting idiot parents is your fault) of a king because he sinned but not from him.

God caries out his justice, so does Raito. Ya sure God is an all powerful being with foreseeing & etc (though I doubt this in some way or otherwise he would have know everything that happened up until now; in my view, no offences please, he either likes to see people squirm - implying he's a sadist; or he was extremely bored so created a world which he already knew would be messed up)
Funny, wasn't Raito also BORED in the 1st chapter.

Somebody say stop, cause I'm starting to turn this into a religious debate. grrr
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Old 2006-10-31, 13:31   Link #29
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Originally Posted by ^_Usagi_^ View Post
But he did order the Israelites to destroy the other nations. I repeat DESTROY, no matter if kids or women (especially women should be killed) (+he also punished Israelites if they actually left people alive). Ya sure they might have been pretty bad & sinful, but NOT ALL (if we just take little children for example)! It's as when God punished the descendands (basically innocent, unless getting idiot parents is your fault) of a king because he sinned but not from him.

God caries out his justice, so does Raito. Ya sure God is an all powerful being with foreseeing & etc (though I doubt this in some way or otherwise he would have know everything that happened up until now; in my view, no offences please, he either likes to see people squirm - implying he's a sadist; or he was extremely bored so created a world which he already knew would be messed up)
Funny, wasn't Raito also BORED in the 1st chapter.

Somebody say stop, cause I'm starting to turn this into a religious debate. grrr
Nice, yesterday I was trying to use some religion's example such as Bible, but I couldnt give specific detail in the manga thread. In the Bible I only remeber the about but not the Detail.
After Jesus die on the Cross, God shooting Fire Balls from the sky to kill everyone (Some people are the doing their job like The FBI Agent, But the point is if those people really recognize the him, they would even abandon their Job, Duty to worship JEsus.)


Light kun kill people who are trying to catch//stop//kill him. He is not going to kill Everyone in the world who are oppose him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neux (Manga Thread)
Spoiler:

Last edited by ThisIsDream; 2006-10-31 at 14:07. Reason: I thought this thread is for ppl who have read the series, so they can give example from the story to support their points :)
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Old 2006-10-31, 13:50   Link #30
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Thanks for quoting me, ThisIsDream, but the thing you quoted is from the manga thread...and I'm sure that quote contains spoilers...you might want to fix that

Quote:
One thing i want to ask Light, "Will u be able to kill your sister if she becomes a criminal?" Since her sister is the most important person to him.
Well if Light doesn't kill her, would that mean Light is harbouring a criminal? Wouldn't that also be wrong? Because then there is justice only for some people and not for others...I mean where is the justice for the victims of her sister is she was a criminal? Another question is if Light's father discovers that Light is Kira, what would his father do? His father is on the side of the law ("justice"), and considering the stuff Light has done, he would no doubt be executed. So if his father turns him in, Light will be killed. But Light is his own son, his own flesh and blood. What would his fater do, save his son or take a hard stance and turn Light in knowing full well he will be executed? Kinda reminds me of the hunter x hunter question, "your mother and wife are held by hostages. you can only save one. which do you save?" where there is no "right" answer.

Last edited by Neux; 2006-10-31 at 14:02.
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Old 2006-10-31, 14:10   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Neux View Post
Thanks for quoting me, ThisIsDream, but the thing you quoted is from the manga thread...and I'm sure that quote contains spoilers...you might want to fix that

Well if Light doesn't kill her, would that mean Light is harbouring a criminal? Wouldn't that also be wrong? Because then there is justice only for some people and not for others...I mean where is the justice for the victims of her sister is she was a criminal? Another question is if Light's father discovers that Light is Kira, what would his father do? His father is on the side of the law ("justice"), and considering the stuff Light has done, he would no doubt be executed. So if his father turns him in, Light will be killed. But Light is his own son, his own flesh and blood. What would his fater do, save his son or take a hard stance and turn Light in knowing full well he will be executed? Kinda reminds me of the hunter x hunter question, "your mother and wife are held by hostages. you can only save one. which do you save?" where there is no "right" answer.

Yea that exactly what I thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsDream (Manga Thread)
I dont know why ppl hate Light, look he is just defending himself. May be he did many cruel things during that, but I am sure Light is the absolute right type person to be God in that "Kira World". You cant be mercy, or emotional. It will only create unfair and u will get defeat by that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
Going off topic
Spoiler for on god and Kira:

Actually, it is not off topic. The word "God" did mentioned in Death note, so we gotta know the definition of "GoD" first. Again, different point of views, what is the definition of GoD to everyone?
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Old 2006-10-31, 17:28   Link #32
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It doesnt matter what is moral or not. Light sets the new morals and ethics and he knows this. Which makes him so damn scary. For now he is testing the Death Note and seeing what works and what doesn work. Of course some of the things he needs to try out are unethical. But the thing that I dont get is this, yes Ive noticed a few people that this world dont need. And Im talking major scum bags like Castro and so on. But I dont think I could use the Death Note to rid the world of this garbage. So what I dont understand is How Light can use it so trivialy. He did have a mildde breakdown once he learnd that it was for real, but he got over that fairly quickly and he even takes pleasure in useing it. This kid who is no older than I am may be a genius but he truly does have some issues.
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Old 2006-10-31, 17:40   Link #33
Aidan
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Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
Again, different point of views, what is the definition of GoD to everyone?
My definition would be, the collective of higher consciousness of all in the universe, basically one huge entity which we are all a part of, yet don't know.
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Old 2006-10-31, 18:07   Link #34
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The protagonist
This Light guy has the most simplistic idea about the world, it would show that he is one of those people who is so weak and cowardly that they have to cower behind the law in order to feel save and security. Seeing the law as some absolute guide, rather than the joke it really is. A world without crime would be perfect? We'll still get all the natural disasters, where people die and property gets destroyed. Perfect world? Nope. I can go on a killing spree and not be a criminal. I simply have to enlist in the army. I can sell weed and not be a criminal, I simply have to go to Holland. Perfect world? Nope. It takes more than a world free of crime for it to be perfect.
I think he is trying to make a better world, not a perfect world...that's a big difference, and a perfect world is not really possible for the reasons you mentioned. I think Light is thinking of a world perfect in the sense that there is no crime, but not perfect in that there won't be deaths from natural disasters and the like. I think Light's goal is to make people be afraid of committing any crimes...someone could go on a killing spree if they are not afraid of being killed by Kira. But if a criminal values their lives, they wouldn't go on the killing spree you mentioned...I think that was what Light was getting at. Of course, for the people who don't care about being killed....well, fear won't stop them from committing more crimes. He is working towards a "better" world, doesn't mean he will really create it. Reducing crime to the extent that crime almost never happens is his goal I think. (And I don't think he is hiding behind the law...if anything he is using and taking advantage of the law and every person around him to his advantage to achieve his goal of creating his "better" world)

And this talk about God....eh, Light is not God, but Kira his public facade is supposed to be a God-like figure that delivers justice. God and God-like is pretty different to me. Even then Light who pretends to be Kira (this God of Justice) is still human and so will make mistakes. Besides, who's to say that gods can't make mistakes...Kira may attempt to only kill criminals...but he might still kill people who are innocent. In the same way, the judge and jury can make mistakes about people and say an innocent is guilty.

In the end, no one has the right to judge who is "guilty" or who is "innocent" as someone said before since values differ from person to person and from place to place, and likewise the same can be said about who is a "criminal" and who isn't. But if no one does that, if no one judges, then we will have a society without laws...since there will be no criminals and no innocent people. If there are no laws, there may be chaos and everyone can do whatever they want...even if laws are imperfect, arguably, they are still necessary to ensure order. A lesser evil if you will.
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Old 2006-10-31, 18:24   Link #35
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It's funny for you to mention Castro, when Light is the epitome of the violent revolutionary; he and those who attempt to reforge society in the crucible of war and dispose of all those who oppose the new order are doing pretty much the same thing. He's just less traditional in his methods. And somehow his methods and arrogance, lack of sacrifice combined with absolute belief in both his ability to realize his ends and the righteousness of doing so make him especially repugnant to me.
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Old 2006-10-31, 18:39   Link #36
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Just a Suggestion. Since the topic - Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means? I think it would be better for people who have read the whole series to judge. If you have only read a lil or half then judge the morality or some characters it might not be a good thing. And when other people reply it they might use some examples from the series to support their point which u havent read yet.
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Old 2006-10-31, 19:05   Link #37
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Light thinks that he is doing the right thing in his own opinion but inreality who is he to judge people? by killing off criminals, light himself has become tainted...its like yea light can judge people...but who is going to be the one to judge light? God? then one can also argue who is the one to judge God? and so on in an endless cycle...
tbh what goes around comes around (twice as hard in some cases) and its better to leave things like fate/destiny to judge the outcome...by breaking this chain and intentionally killing off criminals Light is becoming erm..."evil?" he might be doing the world some good but he is hurting himself...hence "he who uses the death note cannot go to either heaven or hell"

this leads to L...so far all we know about him is that hes a detective...but good or bad? naturally he is catching criminals which is a good thing but is he using underhanded tactics that sacrafices people's lives? that we dont know yet...
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Old 2006-10-31, 19:27   Link #38
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IMO, getting read of evil is a stupid thing. If evil is destroyed then "good" actions will no be able to be recognized, any action would be an action, just that. A world cant exist without good and evil.
But.
I think that the end ALWAYS justify the means. However Raito is killing people, maybe some of them deserved it (yes I know that most of you would think that killing people is always, no matter what, wrong, but I will leave this as a posibility), and I dont think there is an end that could justify a mass murder, even a perfect world.
In fact, I fear the posibility of a perfect world.
I think that humans exist to perfect themselves, but then, what is "perfection"? God? WTF is god????? You dont know what a god is, you just guess what it is. So what when we get perfection? We will dissapear of course. We will not have anything else to do, we are perfect, we already did everything.
But again, we dont know what a perfect world is. Raito thinks he knows that, and he's working to change the world.
I may disagree with Raito's methods and with his ideal, but if I had the oportunity to change the world, I would certainly go for it.
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Old 2006-10-31, 23:00   Link #39
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A Unfortunately Long Disquisition Upon the Nature of Absolute Power

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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
It's funny for you to mention Castro, when Light is the epitome of the violent revolutionary; he and those who attempt to reforge society in the crucible of war and dispose of all those who oppose the new order are doing pretty much the same thing. He's just less traditional in his methods. And somehow his methods and arrogance, lack of sacrifice combined with absolute belief in both his ability to realize his ends and the righteousness of doing so make him especially repugnant to me.
An excellent point, you beat me to what I was going to write about w/r/to Castro.

But to further elaborate the Castro (and by extension, many oppressive regimes) connection: I am sure most people here only think of Castro and Cuba how they are today; a backward country without a free press where one man exerts an untrammeled power which cannot be limited by any action of the people under his rule. But look at history and see how Castro started: he led a rebellion against a very corrupt and brutish dictator (Batista) who had the support of the US government because Batista at least allowed US corporation more or less free reign to do as they liked in Cuba. Castro's revolutionaties followed Communism because they saw the injustices against the common people of Cuba by this untrammeled corporate power allied with police state authority. In their view, the ideal of Communism "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" represented the ideal and just organizing principle of society. (Admit it, it does sound nice, doesn't it? Many people guess that that quote is from Jesus, when asked about its origin.) But it goes wrong when the leaders, no matter how high their idealism, insist that only they know the right way and things must be done according to their will. In the end the old cliche about "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true. And in Cuba we see where this has degenerated to.

This is true of so many other examples. Not to invoke Godwin's Law, but look at Nazi Germany. We see Hitler's ideology as the epitome of evil, but in his own view he was doing good. In his twisted view, he really believed that Jews were at the root of all of Germany's and the world's problems. So if they could only be gotten rid of, society would be peaceful and prosperous. Isn't that the ideal of justice?

Look at the Soviet Union. The Bolshevik revolution was an uprising of the common peasant Serfs against an absolutist Russian monarchy and aristocracy that had brutally opressed them for generations. Again, they saw the concentration of wealth and power in an elite few nobles as the root of the evil that was done to the serfs, and so the obvious counterweight would be to make sure that no one could accumulate so much wealth. Again, in their view the answer to this was communism, that the private accumulation of wealth, and the power that accompanies it, must be outlawed. Accomplish this "just" theoretical goal, however, in practice meant the arrest and murder of people who had large accumulations of wealth and land, or who would support the return of the old regime. To carry out such purges and protect the revolution against those who would overthrow it, more power was accumulated in the hands of Communist Party leaders, culminating in the dictatorship of Josef Stalin, who saw any threat (real or imagined) as a danger to the state which needed to be eliminated. So millions of peasant farmers who resided outside his control in the countryside had to be rounded up and put on state run farms where they could be monitored. Military and party leaders who might question his policies were to be eliminated, because he alone would guarantee the security of the Soviet Union and the success of the Revolution.

The same kind of thing is true in revolutionary France, Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Islamic theocracies like Iran, and on and on. It is always, always, in the name of the highest ideals of justice that the worst crimes are committed: ideals that are so high and noble that they can only be reached by standing on mountains of dead children.

Now look at Light Yagami. (to get back to the topic) Now I've only seen the first 4 episodes subbed and never read the manga, so I can only draw conclusions based on that. But by the end of episode 4 Light is planning to kill the FBI agent that has been tailing him: a man who has committed no crime, and who probably has a wife and family. Why? Because Light is bringing justice to the world, and only he shall decide what is right, and that ideal is too important to let anyone else interfere with. Also earlier, he killed the false L on the TV broadcast without knowing anything about the person. The phony was said to be a condemned murder, but for all Light knew this man could also have a family, and was working in his own way toward what he saw as justice. When anyone has an unassailable power, no matter how good their intentions, it is very very dangerous.

I have thought of this question with regard to other anime and fantasy as well. Often I've heard people muse "Wouldn't it be cool if we had alchemy like FMA?" or "It would be great to be a wizard like Harry Potter!" I immediately react that both these things would be disasters for a very simple reason: in both these cases it seems that people endowed with these magic/alchemic abilities have them from birth. In Harry Potter world, it doesn't matter how hard you work or study, if you're born a "muggle" you will never have magical ability. It's a little less clear for FMA, but it doesn't seem to me that, say, Sheska the librarian could go off and gain alchemic ability just by studying. Sheska has read every alchemy book in the State Library, so shouldn't she be able to do at least as much alchemy as Ed and Al in the start of the series? Yet she doesn't. It seems that alchemic ability is something you're born with.

And if that's the case, then a world where people have these powers is one where people would be saddled with a natural aristocracy more absolute and pernicious than the worst of the Russian nobility. As with the Ishbalans, if you were a member of a group of "undesirables" in such a world, you would have no recourse to protect your most basic rights if you didn't have alchemic or magic powers. People often ignorantly bash science saying "Science gives us the atom bomb, or global warming!" But anyone can become a scientist or engineer, or a leader in our democracy, if they are willing to study and work hard enough. So any group that feels its rights are being threatened have a recourse to push back.

It is this ability of people to "push back" that prevents the worst abuses of power. But how can anyone "push back" against Light Yagami? Even if his motives (stop crime) may seem good, he is in the end human, and therefore fallible. Can we be sure that all the people he has killed are guilty? How many people on death row in the USA have been released thanks to the development of DNA evidence that proves their innocence years after their initial convictions? If they had been executed (by lethal injection or by Death Note) it would not be possible to recitfy this injustice. How would one appeal a death sentence by Kira? There is no way to ring up and say "Hey, they've got the wrong guy in this case!" And if his plan to kill that FBI agent continues, then likely anybody who tried to rise up and say publicly that Kira had gotten the wrong man would certainly be kacked too, for the crime of instilling doubt in the minds of the public about the honor and justice being served by Kira.

In the end Kira poses a far greater threat than anything he is acting against. In the end he will likely have to kill more and more people who might question his actions publicly or who are trying to stop him. There is a reason that our founders tried to set up system of checks and balances and the rule of law instead of the rule of men: no one person or branch of government should be able to attain this kind of unassailable power.

That's why it seems to me that the most likable character in this show so far is Ryuk.
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Old 2006-10-31, 23:02   Link #40
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Somebody say stop, cause I'm starting to turn this into a religious debate. grrr
Stop. You're playing with fire here. No more religious context here. None. Nothing whatsoever. I can see where you are coming from, but talking about religion isn't the purpose of this author, this thread, or this forum in general. Remember, if people are willing to kill over religion, it has the power to arouse strong emotions.


Well, let me take a very very cynical approach here using statistics.

By the logic of human mortality, killing is evil. So, what exactly does killing do? It reduces the number of human beings. So, are unmarried people evil? After all, they didn't give birth to their fair share of children, constituting the logic that the number of human beings is reduced. Then, let's say that no one is ever killed and not a single population control policy is enforced. The population on earth booms so much that the whole world dies of global warming.

12 million people died in World War II, an event to which we call atrocity. But when every family produces an extra child, the birth can easily exceed the death. Moreover, Europe gains greater stability (discounting the cold war tension) and many people are introduced with this concept called democracy.

What am I getting here?

So, can Light bring about stability of the world with the sacrifice of a few thousand? In the long haul, doesn't he save more lives? That's all theory in his head, anyway. But he endeavors to change the world with good intent.

Do you spite a child who tries to bake a cake on mother's day but ends up burning it? the kid tried, even if he wasted the ingredients to bake the cake.
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