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Old 2006-11-03, 16:03   Link #101
musouka
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Whoa, whoa. You are blaming L for having FBI agents do their job? Gee, I guess we should let everyone who's ever killed a cop out of prison. Clearly it's not the murderer's fault, the blame must be placed on the chief of police who sent them to that district!

L did not murder those innocent people in cold blood. Light did. That's the difference.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:06   Link #102
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Read Chapter 19 of the Manga and judge Kira for yourself.

If you actually think Kira is good then you are pretty much the chick in the Anime ep.01 that asked Kira to kill everyone on her phone.

Whats the reason why L, ASKED the police force to help him? To do their job and catch killers. He never once refused their resignation or forced them to do an investigation. These are men that have one aim and it so happen L is the leader.

i cant even believe people think Kira is innocent as well as L. Both of them broke the law, the difference is Kira's rule breaking is sadistic.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:09   Link #103
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I requote that thing, Like someone said before this is a war, a revolution. and please read carefully and stop posting what have been posted before lol. I am tired of keep requote old posts for people who dont read =\
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:11   Link #104
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No one are saying Light is a good guy or innocent, just say this is a revolution and no one is right or wrong.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:14   Link #105
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
I requote that thing, Like someone said before this is a war, a revolution. and please read carefully and stop posting what have been posted before lol. I am tired of keep requote old posts for people who dont read =\
We already read it the first time. I'm not too stupid to understand the point you're trying to make, I just utterly disagree with it. These agents were not like soldiers. Light knew they weren't a danger to him. He killed them anyway, out of his obsession with finding L instead of just evading and continuing what he's doing.

It's an ego thing now.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:21   Link #106
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no one is right or wrong?

kira want to be god and rule people - WRONG
L breaking laws - WRONG
kira individually implement punishments at his choosing - WRONG

this is not revolution, since its being happening for thousands of years. Its called Dictatorship.

you pretty much can compare Kira to Hitler. each strive for their perfect war at all costs. difference is Kira got a book.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:22   Link #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
It's an ego thing now.
Exactly.

Honestly, like I said before, I don't give a damn if Light kills scumbags like murderers or rapists.

But Light is not working towards a noble goal, he's working towars making his already huge ego even bigger. And that's why I think he's no better than those criminals.

A revolution, you say, where no one is "good" or "evil"? I think we all have the right to give and have an opinion on whether something is "good" or "bad", and to me, innocents dying or getting hurt is always a "bad" thing. He destroyed a family in episode 5 - why do you think I absolutely loath scumbags like murderers or rapists? Exactly for the same thing Light last did. I lost any respect I had for him, honestly.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:26   Link #108
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I bet ur "soldier" is someone carrying a gun or weapon going to the battlefield and fight lol. And I guess what NEux was saying was an analogy like Trax. No matter what, these Fbi agents are risking their lives to stop//catch//kill "Kira". And even that Fbi agent didnt suspect Light(ok now Light is in no danger), they are still those people who are willing to RISK THEIR LIFE TO CATCH//STOP//KILL "Kira" (which are L's Units) . Light = alone doing the revolution. L supports = CIA, FBI, Japanese police etc......
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:31   Link #109
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Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
I think the different is here For some reason (possibly revenge) vigilante and Kira.
Also neighborhood safe vs. making the world safe,

Neighborhood = a group of people. Just like Raito only protecting his own family (or some group of people) only to me.
World = Everyone in the world.
Sorry but what is your point? I even mentioned the difference in scale already. That's why it's an analogy.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:32   Link #110
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If u think they are wrong then they both are wrong.

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Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
Actually, they did a lil discussion in the manga
Spoiler for Near 's opinions:


Spoiler for Light kun' opioions:
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:38   Link #111
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsDream View Post
No matter what, these Fbi agents are risking their lives to stop//catch//kill "Kira".
No, they're risking their lives to find Kira. Then, if they find him, they report to L and he is the one that decides what to do. I highly doubt their orders were to actually engage Kira and try to take him down. Furthermore, their investigation was moving away from Light. There was a danger there, but Light had already passed it.

Also, quit acting like I'm an idiot. I understand analogies. I'm not a moron. Not everyone that doesn't buy into your viewpoint is refuting you because they're just too stupid to understand you.

EDIT: Also, Light did not kill the FBI agents because they were going against him. He killed them to A) scare off the police, and B) flush out L by creating tension between him and the police force.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:49   Link #112
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OK scales problem , but i dont know what the possibly revenge has anything do with kira and ya "eventhough they symphatize with the intention, they would probably prefer that the vigilante gets caught." is true, but light is not going to kill them like a dictator.

Actually, when Light kill the criminals which L used to test where Kira located. The msg is kind shown - Who ever want to find "Kira" out and stop him he will hunt them down.
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Old 2006-11-03, 16:55   Link #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
No, they're risking their lives to find Kira.
Yup, he is a unit from L'side
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Then, if they find him, they report to L and he is the one that decides what to do.
L supporters = CIA, FBI, Japanese polices etc.... Vs 1 person Light, While L can send (innocent) people to find L out, but Light cant send anyone to find L out. That is inevitable.

Last edited by ThisIsDream; 2006-11-03 at 18:17.
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Old 2006-11-03, 17:02   Link #114
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But the point is Light doesn't have to find L. He just has to evade him. The only reason he really wants to find L is because of his ego.
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Old 2006-11-03, 17:12   Link #115
ThisIsDream
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Ya, u can say that so both of them are wrong, because of the ego thing. Not only Light is wrong. Also they both think they are justice.

In Light's view, L is a big threat to him as well. L isn't dumb like ordinary detectives, he also gather (innocent)people who would risk their lives to go against Kira.
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Old 2006-11-03, 17:30   Link #116
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Many revolutions are a group of people Vs a group of people, but this time Light is the only one who is doing the revolution. "Kira" such a God-Like position which are playing by a human being, it is really sad and pathetic. It is not an easy job to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexu
Spoiler for Successful leader:



Working on the ideal, for the world's sake, while he didnt gain anything from doing it. He sacrificed many things in his life.

First, Light is not like all GREAT FAMOUS Kings, rulers or revolution leaders etc..., getting worshippers, forming army, creating authority, setting his own position, getting his own benefit. Instead, he didnt get anything from doing it, but lots of negative things. He didnt come out and take the creadits (Well u can say he doesnt want to expose himself) and so it proves that he isnt doing that for his own benefit.

Second, in the manga, the reason Yagami Raito setting that fire trap in his desk is becasue he doesnt want to end up killing his own family. He would rather let the Death note get burnt than end up killing his own family.
Well in the anime is more like eliminating evidences, but then he would also lose the power to create the utopia world -_-; If he really gone mad about the power to become God, he wouldnt use such a way to hide the death note.
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Old 2006-11-03, 18:49   Link #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neux
When people say killing is wrong regardless of intention, and that that is murder no matter what. How about euthanasia? Someone who lives in pain and wants to die but cannot...A person sees this and wants to end that person's misery. Is that person committing murder? That person's intent was to help relieve that person of pain and let that person die..leaving that person live on in pain can arguably also be seen as cruel....
Since the "victim" actively makes a choice to terminate his life, it's better to equate euthanasia with suicide than with murder. Suicide does not actually harm any other parties, it's not really morally wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsDream
So u guys are saying Light is a murderer because u dont like the Death penalty he gave for criminals? Then all executers in the world are murderers... Like I mention before, this is the penalty problems. All police put human being in jail, treating them like an animals in Zoo. What are they lol?
PLEASE dont come up with the "right" problem again -_-. all human are the same.
What Light did and what executioners are essentially different. In the case of condemned criminals, they are deemed to have committed a crime that deserves the punishment of execution. Thus when executioners carry out their duty, they are only doing so as that act of punishment. On the other hand, Light's killings don't have that veneer of legitimacy, and they are nothing more than Light exercising his power. The problem is that just because Light has power doesn't mean that he is also accorded the authority to wield it against other people.

When it comes to jailing criminals, society does so as a punishment for crimes committed. By committing a criminal act, they effectively forfeited their freedom. In effect, they are no longer treated as having the same rights as everyone else.

In addition, we have nothing more than Light's word that the people he killed deserved to die. While he may be right in some cases, he is unlikely to be right in all of them. Another way of looking at it is if Light thought that you deserved to be written in the Death Note, would you die willingly, or would you think that this is unfair?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsDream
First, Light is not like all GREAT FAMOUS Kings, rulers or revolution leaders etc..., getting worshippers, forming army, creating authority, setting his own position, getting his own benefit. Instead, he didnt get anything from doing it, but lots of negative things. He didnt come out and take the creadits (Well u can say he doesnt want to expose himself) and so it proves that he isnt doing that for his own benefit.
Even if someone selflessly commits an immoral act, it's still an immoral act. It's quite possible to do horrible things, that will not benefit the perpetrator personally, in the name of good intentions. In the real world, we tend to call such people monsters. I don't think that it would be inappropriate to equate Light with this kind of person.
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Old 2006-11-03, 19:04   Link #118
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But the point is Light doesn't have to find L. He just has to evade him. The only reason he really wants to find L is because of his ego.
I think you're underestimating L. Evading him isn't an easy thing to do.

And Light's ego? Sure, Light is confident of his abilities. If he is planning to change the world to a "better" place, he better be confident and have thought things out. If you're a general leading an army, and you better be confident of your battle plans and not hesitate among other things, or else the general is gonna find himself on the losing side pretty quickly. He is going after L because he knows L is a very perceptive person, who is not to be underestimated.

Anyways, Kira's goal isn't to run and hide like a coward, Kira is supposed to be a powerful, maybe even God-like figure in the eyes of the public to be able to kill criminals anywhere anytime, so he can't be hiding from someone like L. If Kira stops delivering "justice", the criminals won't fear Kira anymore, and his plans will have gone to waste. Light had to maintain Kira's image as an all powerful figure who will deliver judge criminals.

If Light wanted to he could have killed his father when he said that he was gonna catch Kira no matter what. Light wasn't happy that his father said that, but he wasn't gonna kill his father because he didn't share his ideals. He even made a promise to himself: if Kira kills his father, he will take himself down. Of course, you could also say that he wanted to keep his father alive to get L but, Light probably said that because he knows that will never happen...that he will never take himself out because he will never go after people like his father.

Quote:
Since the "victim" actively makes a choice to terminate his life, it's better to equate euthanasia with suicide than with murder. Suicide does not actually harm any other parties, it's not really morally wrong.
That's not always true. Sometimes they "victim" can't speak or communicate that they want to die. But they are in a lot of pain. Anyways, euthanasia is murder in some places....and is against the law. After all, another person knowing does something to kill someone...that is murder to some people, even if it's "assisted suicide"

Quote:
In addition, we have nothing more than Light's word that the people he killed deserved to die. While he may be right in some cases, he is unlikely to be right in all of them.
Same thing with the jury system. They don't always make the right choices and can be susceptible to bribes among other things. Neither system is perfect, and no human is perfect. The question is whether the end result will be better or worse.
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Old 2006-11-03, 19:20   Link #119
musouka
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It would certainly be easier to evade him if Light didn't keep on giving him huge hints about himself and his habits. L is hard to evade, but killing the FBI agents just makes L realize that he was on the right track. Any tactical advantage Light gained by forcing L to make a move is lost when you realize he just narrowed down who Kira could be substantially. The smartest move in this case is to evade and deflect L's probes as best he can, not meet them with a reaction that lets L know when he's getting close.

The problem with Light is that he has too much pride to do that. The gauntlet has been thrown, and it wounds Light's ego too much to go into a defensive position. The stupid idiot...

It would be better for Kira's image if he could keep on killing and ignore L, which is what I mean when I say he should go on the defense. As time goes on without results, L would begin to look bad. If Light was smart enough and willing enough to play the waiting game longer, L might even have been taken off the case officially, and lost the support of the police forces.
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Old 2006-11-03, 19:33   Link #120
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This is a question that has been asked for centuries and i for one dont think there a solid answer to it. One could argue the fact that Kira is only killing criminals (so far) thats all well and good but being a citizen of whatever country you happen to be in obligates you to follow the rules. Take justice into your own hands only causes more problems imo. Also who gave Kira the right to take life and to pass judgement on these people. The crimianals that were in prison were already convicted which means they are doing their time they are being punished. I dont think anyone has the right to take a life on their own sense of justice.

One could also aruge the fact that crime has gone down since Kira has started his killings. But are people not commiting crimes out of fear or have they really tried to turn over a new leaf. People who live in fear usually rebel in the end.

Example are people who killed or persacuted for religious belief. Some people think its ok to kill people women and children because their god commands them too. The end result is world free from what ever religion that group hates or fears but would god really command people to kill innocents in him name?

So I think in some cases the end does justify the means but not in the case of Kira i think he is only causing more harm than good in the long run. If a person has killed a person stands trail and is convicted by his peers in a court of law and sentence to the death penlty then yes the ends justify the means because that person was found guilty in a court of law that has been established and recongnized by the govornment. Kira kills who HE feels is guilty thats murder not justice
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