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Old 2009-04-24, 11:22   Link #1821
Code Geass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Also, I find it interesting that Clovis is the only person Lelouch felt ill about killing.
I agree with morbosfist. The first kill is the hardest one most of the time, especially when it comes to human beings.

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Not only did he remodel the top of the gov't building to match the Imperial villa's garden (which Lelouch noted), he painted a grand picture of Marianne, Lelouch, and Nunnally.
He painted quite a few pictures of his family.
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Old 2009-04-24, 12:29   Link #1822
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Code Geass View Post
I agree with morbosfist. The first kill is the hardest one most of the time, especially when it comes to human beings.
I'm entirely aware of that, I'm just saying its interesting. The one person he felt sick about killing was one person he had quite the history with, regardless of the reasons.

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He painted quite a few pictures of his family.
True, but it was the one of Marianne and her children that stood out the most, no?
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Old 2009-04-24, 13:16   Link #1823
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
I'm entirely aware of that, I'm just saying its interesting. The one person he felt sick about killing was one person he had quite the history with, regardless of the reasons.
I agree with that.
No matter the reasons, it certainly is interesting.

Quote:
True, but it was the one of Marianne and her children that stood out the most, no?
Also, I don't see why anyone should point out that Clovis painted other members of his family, as well, since it is a fact that he cared a great deal about Lelouch, Nunally and Marianne - but especially Lelouch. He may have been fond of many members of his family (even though there weren't all that many paintings in that particular room and very few portraits - I only saw one), but he went to Area Eleven because he thought of it as a way to basically finish their last chess match, and he even said: "It's Lelouch's resting place, after all (...)".
He also build the garden where they "always used to argue" on top of the government building, as it was already mentioned a few times. It seems slightly obsessive... xD
Errr, yeah, anyway, no reason to doubt that Lelouch was Clovis' most impoartant person by far. Except maybe for Gabriella, but he never mentioned his mother in canon, so I'll take a guess and say they weren't that close, for some reason.
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Last edited by Nogitsune; 2009-04-24 at 13:27.
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Old 2009-04-25, 19:26   Link #1824
TimelessEcholocation
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If Lelouch and Nunnally has been discovered seven years after the invasion but both of them refuse to return to the mainland, would that be considered treason?
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Old 2009-04-25, 19:30   Link #1825
morbosfist
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Originally Posted by TimelessEcholocation View Post
If Lelouch and Nunnally has been discovered seven years after the invasion but both of them refuse to return to the mainland, would that be considered treason?
Maybe. Depends on how they treat royalty in that regard. I doubt simply refusing to leave in itself would warrant such a serious charge.
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Old 2009-04-25, 20:24   Link #1826
Nogitsune
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Well... maybe it wouldn't be treason, exactly (then again, it's not a great sign of loyalty to disobey a direct order), but I can't imagine Lelouch outright refusing to return to Britannia after being discovered - it clearly would do him and Nunally more harm than good, since the only way to successfully deny the Emperor would have been to go into hiding again somewhere else, which would have been pretty difficult.
He could have tried to bargain - either with the Emperor or whomever it was that disvored him (convincing Clovis, for example, might have worked pretty well, even though I doubt Lelouch would have bothered trying, since... yeah. Not to mention that it would need to be a scenario without any other witnesses, and Lelouch not having the option of simply killing him).
So yeah, it might not have been treason, but pretty stupid, and not Lelouch's style at all, despite his hatred. It would be like standing infront of a clearly dangerous lion that already killed your favourite puppy and punching it in the face.
Errr... or something like that. xD
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Old 2009-04-26, 07:57   Link #1827
Levy
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Well, Lulu and Nunnaly could have chose to give up their rank and live as commoners in japan without being charged of treason.
I think Schneizel would have kissed his own ass to get rid of a competitor as dangerous as Lelouch, so he might have helped in persuading Daddy that leaving Lulu and Nunnaly where they are was totally the beeeeeeeest thing to do. But who knows, Curly-Charlie is a bit umpredictable in his decision, so, well, I don't know.

Not treason in a military sense anyway, Lulu and Nunna were underaged and not charged with any military duty or something like that. And it was theri father to exile them, they do not flee to Japan to hide deliberately.
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Old 2009-04-26, 08:08   Link #1828
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Levy View Post
Well, Lulu and Nunnaly could have chose to give up their rank and live as commoners in japan without being charged of treason.
Hm... I don't think it would be that easy.
Charles wouldn't let them off the hook so easily - even though I'm not sure what he would do with V.V. around -, and Lelouch probably wouldn't even bother asking. You can never have enough "political tools", after all.

Quote:
I think Schneizel would have kissed his own ass to get rid of a competitor as dangerous as Lelouch, so he might have helped in persuading Daddy that leaving Lulu and Nunnaly where they are was totally the beeeeeeeest thing to do. But who knows, Curly-Charlie is a bit umpredictable in his decision, so, well, I don't know.
Or maybe Schneizel would try to make Lelouch agree to ultimate world peace? xD
I'd really like to see that.

Quote:
Not treason in a military sense anyway, Lulu and Nunna were underaged and not charged with any military duty or something like that. And it was theri father to exile them, they do not flee to Japan to hide deliberately.
I'm not so sure if their age really matters - it's Charles who makes the rules, after all.
But in any case, they'd need a good excuse for why they didn't attempt to return to Britannia, and they'd probably have to come back immediately.
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Old 2009-04-26, 08:35   Link #1829
lua thien
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Hm... I don't think it would be that easy.
Charles wouldn't let them off the hook so easily - even though I'm not sure what he would do with V.V. around -, and Lelouch probably wouldn't even bother asking. You can never have enough "political tools", after all.


Or maybe Schneizel would try to make Lelouch agree to ultimate world peace? xD
I'd really like to see that.


I'm not so sure if their age really matters - it's Charles who makes the rules, after all.
But in any case, they'd need a good excuse for why they didn't attempt to return to Britannia, and they'd probably have to come back immediately.

What would be the point for Charles to "protect" Lelouch and Nunnally from V.V. when he and Marianne set their hell-bent sights on the Ragnarok Junction, which was said to be able to bring back the dead? Honestly, they don't give a damn about their kids.

Schniezel would still have Charles to deal with and can two princes outdo the emperor?

How about this for the excuse:
"Well, you kicked us out of the house so what's the point in returning unless you didn't kick us harder the first time? We aren't even alive to begin as you so said that day seven years ago."
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Old 2009-04-26, 09:26   Link #1830
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by lua thien View Post
What would be the point for Charles to "protect" Lelouch and Nunnally from V.V. when he and Marianne set their hell-bent sights on the Ragnarok Junction, which was said to be able to bring back the dead? Honestly, they don't give a damn about their kids.
Well, I think R2 was supposed to show us that Charles did indeed care - in a strange, twisted way that makes me want to throw something at him -, and Marianne... errr, let's not go into that, because R2 just didn't do her justice. I'm sure she was supposed to be quite twisted, too, but the person we saw there didn't have much to do with the woman that everyone loved and admired and who should at least have been able to make some sense.
I'm not saying Charles would have gone out of his way to protect his children. But neither would he have wanted to make it easier for V.V. to dispose of them.
He could just have married Lelouch off to China or something.

Quote:
Schniezel would still have Charles to deal with and can two princes outdo the emperor?
Well, two master minds are better than one, so Schneizel could at least have tried. And Charles would have died some day, so they could always have reformed the world together after that... theoretically, if Lelouch wasn't Lelouch and if Schneizel wasn't the epitome of "logic", and if Charles didn't have his own plans for ultimate world peace.

Quote:
How about this for the excuse:
"Well, you kicked us out of the house so what's the point in returning unless you didn't kick us harder the first time? We aren't even alive to begin as you so said that day seven years ago."
That would be more of a truth than an excuse, and it would be nothing more than a repitition of the scene at the beginning of episode 7. Only that Lelouch would be older and still act more childish.
A good exuse would be something like: "We didn't want to risk attracting the attention of terrorists" - something logical rather than something emotional and/or something that openly puts the blame on the most powerful man in the world.
"We thought you wanted to be rid of us" might have worked, as well, if Lelouch wanted to pretend to be stupid and extremely naive, and if his father pretended not to notice, but... xD
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Old 2009-04-26, 12:02   Link #1831
Rising Dragon
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About Schniezel... I don't think he'd convince Charles to exile Lelouch and Nunnally. He, like his brothers and sisters, cared for both, apparently. It wasn't until Euphy's death and the massacre she caused before it that he became disillusioned with the world.
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Old 2009-04-26, 12:35   Link #1832
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
About Schniezel... I don't think he'd convince Charles to exile Lelouch and Nunnally. He, like his brothers and sisters, cared for both, apparently.
I think like Clovis, Schneizel especially cared for Lelouch.
Then again, if he and Nunally wanted to stay in Japan... why not? It's not like Schneizel would want to constantly hug them... I think. xD

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It wasn't until Euphy's death and the massacre she caused before it that he became disillusioned with the world.
Was that officially stated somewhere?
Because I don't think he truly changed in the course of the series. It was more that cirumstances changed, and he adapted and used them to further his own goals.
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Old 2009-04-26, 19:30   Link #1833
Vicious108
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Uh, did you guys miss the part when it was made pretty clear that Schneizel was apathetic towards pretty much everything in life and never truly cared for anything or anyone ever? That was what allowed Lelouch to defeat him after all.
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Old 2009-04-26, 21:55   Link #1834
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Uh, did you guys miss the part when it was made pretty clear that Schneizel was apathetic towards pretty much everything in life and never truly cared for anything or anyone ever? That was what allowed Lelouch to defeat him after all.
Yep. He certainly looked apathetic when he greeted and spoke to Cornelia in the episode after his introduction. And man, did you see how apathetic he looked when he found out about dear sweet Euphy causing a massacre? I mean, seriously!

...

'kay, done being sarcastic now.
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Old 2009-04-26, 23:49   Link #1835
azul120
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Was it because of that incident? Schneizel always seemed to hold his own agenda above all else, even if in secret.
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Old 2009-04-27, 03:29   Link #1836
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Yep. He certainly looked apathetic when he greeted and spoke to Cornelia in the episode after his introduction. And man, did you see how apathetic he looked when he found out about dear sweet Euphy causing a massacre? I mean, seriously!

...

'kay, done being sarcastic now.
Thank god because that was some highly ineffective sarcasm.

And those occasions are hardly enough to disprove it. Him greeting and speaking to Cornelia was just him being his typical smooth stalker to earn other people's trust.

And obviously anyone would be suprised at that massacre, doesn't mean he was concerned for "dear sweet" Euphie.

He'll still do stuff to further his goals and obviously will still be suprised by something unexpected, but he never truly cared for anyone. That was the whole point of his character and I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed on interviews by Taniguchi and whatnot.

Lloyd showed emotions like amusement and suprise too, but he was pretty much apathetic towards anything that wasn't the Lancelot or his other precious tools.
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Old 2009-04-27, 13:29   Link #1837
Nogitsune
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*shrugs*
In my opinion, Schneizel definitely cared... in his own, twisted way.
He had no "attachments", but as he said: Lelouch was the person he feared and loved most.
That doesn't mean he hid in a corner whenever his baby brother showed up, or that he would have hesistated to kill him if he felt it was necessary. But it's something.
In Stage 0.884, Schneizel doted on Euphie, calling her "Ochibi-san" and softly laughing along with Cornelia when she told them about her idealistic goals, and he also seemed to really enjoy embarassing Cornelia by flattering her.
Schneizel cared about his family, but he is not Clovis, who put Lelouch about everything else, or Cornelia, who thirsted for revenge when one of her siblings was killed. He feels, but he doesn't feel deeply, and he gets overs his emotions pretty quickly.
He wanted the Emperor to spare Lelouch, but it's not like he would have felt guilty if that hadn't worked or if he'd later on killed him himself. A slight regret, probably... but that's about it.
That's my interpretation of Schneizel.
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Old 2009-04-27, 19:41   Link #1838
Vicious108
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Well I'm pretty sure Kanon, who probably knew Schneizel better than anyone else, said on a couple or so different occasions that his "weakness" was that he had no motivation and not a single true thing he cared about in the world.

Him being nice to Euphie and flattering Cornelia was simply because being on good terms with them was beneficial to his goals. Cause he didn't really hesitate to shower Cornelia with a gun turret once the occasion arose, now did he?

But oh well, you guys are welcome to your own interpretation I guess. I merely go with the one that makes the most sense according to what we're given.
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Old 2009-04-27, 23:30   Link #1839
azul120
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And wasn't the last occasion when Schneizel was geassed by Lelouch?
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Old 2009-04-27, 23:43   Link #1840
Vicious108
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Uh, not really. The only thing thing Schneizel did after being Geass'd was parade around the streets with skimpy clothing while tied to a cross.
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