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Old 2007-06-16, 03:43   Link #521
gaguri
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I know I know , sometimes, as if it's some kind of natural phenomenon, there's budding of endless discussions born from endless branches of what is essentially one root idea.

*edit: I looked back at your first response and assuming that you are looking at character comparison, I have to disagree. Same can't be said about Twelve Kingdoms because it doesn't put less focus on the main character like Seirei. Through the main Youko's eyes and her struggle, the world of intrigues flesh out and from there rise a profound development of Youko as a character. Definitely not the case with Balsa.

I don't know how you (and maybe 4tran, I'm not sure) see the show placing less focus on Youko, because this is clearly focused on Youko as a character, and the world is fantastic only through her fear of unknown, fear of herself, intrigues of the political and spiritual mechanics, significance of virtues such as loyalty and benevolence. Without less focus on Youko and her responding to all these intrigues of the world that is built up through her journey, this world we see will not be possible.

Last edited by gaguri; 2007-06-16 at 03:57.
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Old 2007-06-16, 06:16   Link #522
kujoe
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To cut my point short, what I'm really trying to say is that, while Twelve Kingdoms portrays Youko's struggles at the center, its story is viewed more from an omnipotent perspective than Seirei, which is why they're quite different from each other. The setting gets such a focus. This is especially evident in the novels, which go beyond Youko's story (from what I've heard).

Last edited by kujoe; 2007-06-16 at 06:27.
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Old 2007-06-16, 07:50   Link #523
BluWacky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Th View Post
I'm pretty sure teenagers weren't E7 main audience... the best show for a comparison there is Gurren-Lagann, both shows' intended demographics is pretty much the same even if the second one is even more confusing due to the heavy classic references.
Part of the problem with E7 was that its intended demographic was never made quite clear. To quote this interview:

"There was a director, who wanted something that reflected the music and subculture of his generation - and a love story. The producer said we need transforming robots that fight each other. The sponsor said that the show must come on at 7:00 in the morning on Sunday, and that it should be for kids... Everyone has to be satisfied."

Did they satisfy anyone, though?

Anyway, still catching up slowly with SnM. Really not "feeling" the show very much; I appreciate it from a technical viewpoint and appreciate how well crafted it is, but somehow it just bores me to tears on a regular basis which is really disappointing. I'd love to read the books, though. Maybe it'll pick up in a bit.
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Old 2007-06-16, 08:30   Link #524
kari-no-sugata
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Episode 11

Bit surprised to see no comments on this ep yet.

More awesomeness that can hardly be conveyed in mere text
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Old 2007-06-16, 09:25   Link #525
gaguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe
To cut my point short, what I'm really trying to say is that, while Twelve Kingdoms portrays Youko's struggles at the center, its story is viewed more from an omnipotent perspective than Seirei, which is why they're quite different from each other. The setting gets such a focus. This is especially evident in the novels, which go beyond Youko's story (from what I've heard).
o_0

Let's forget for a moment, that what you're saying now about the Twelve Kingdom's focus on Youko's struggles contradicts your initial statement about Twelve Kingdom placing more focus on building the world than the main character. I find the above statement still hard to swallow. Are you sure you didn't mean exactly the opposite?

Most of her insights come from her narratives in first point of view, either from her conversations with the monkey sword, or reflecting on the rat, Yuka, the band she travelled with, etc. Of course you have few comments from rat, Yuka and Shoryu on her change and strength, but that's rarely done compared to the intense and thorough tale unfold from her viewpoints.

Look back at Seirei on the other hand. This is less 'omnipotent' view than 12 kingdoms? Are you sure this world we see are all unfold from mostly Balsa's hands? Not from Chagum's PoV on the spectrum of lives from poor to royal, from his tutor's and brother's on the balancing importance of brotherly love and kingship, from his mother's on equally important maternal love, smiths on the role of weapons and Diviners and Shamans on blind pride and compromise? Were these all minor compared to Balsa taking her time-out healing her wounds and having some chat hinting about her past? I don't know about the novel but from everything anime version suggests, I'd like a bit more convincing notion.

Nice to see that at least BluWacky feeling somewhat similar to mine despite the overwhelming praises. Undeniably technical merits are high, but it hasn't been very blood-stirring like early episodes for a while. But I need to watch the latest episode so,
*goes off to download epi 11 too.
*edit: wait a minute...I've only seen nine...

Last edited by gaguri; 2007-06-16 at 09:55.
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Old 2007-06-16, 10:23   Link #526
wrex_japan
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Seirei no Moribito, ep. 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
Bit surprised to see no comments on this ep yet.

More awesomeness that can hardly be conveyed in mere text
Ep. 11 screenshots and summary. The episode certainly put a smile on my face. We get a mix of romantic feelings, Tanda showing his stuff, and a view of Nayugu.
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Old 2007-06-16, 12:06   Link #527
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Hmm...the episode felt a bit like a filler to me, probably because

Spoiler for episode 11:
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Old 2007-06-16, 15:02   Link #528
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri
Let's forget for a moment, that what you're saying now about the Twelve Kingdom's focus on Youko's struggles contradicts your initial statement about Twelve Kingdom placing more focus on building the world than the main character. I find the above statement still hard to swallow. Are you sure you didn't mean exactly the opposite?
To be honest, I'm at a loss of how to explain myself to you if that still wasn't clear enough so this is my last post on this matter before it gets too out of hand.

An omnipotent, far-reaching perspective and world building—are these two incompatible to you? (Twelve Kingdoms even has narration.) The overall scope, the bigger picture, of the story of Twelve Kingdoms is derived more from the setting itself. In the end, you're really just watching (or reading) about the fantastic world that Youko arrives in. This is not to say that Youko is worthless.

Seirei is something else. Similarly, it's an adventure and a drama, but so far it seems that we're not going to get directly educated about the history of New Yogo and the philosophy and cosmology it abides in—at least, not in the same level as Twelve Kingdoms. Its setting, while beautiful and important, matters "less."
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Old 2007-06-16, 17:14   Link #529
MrProphet
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Wow, episode 11 surprised the hell out of me.

Weird plot sequencing with confusing and unannounced shifts from here to there and then WHAM ... Nayugu.

Nayugu is so beautiful. Seriously, the turtle freaked me out in the ITSSOCOOL sense of the word. 8)

Though, Tanda, you big dolt, you idiot, you coward. Those are the words you say to a girl when she can HEAR you. But, I guess, this was the only time when Tanda was able to gather enough courage to say something to Barsa.

Tanda reminds of an overgrown teenager, so confused and shy around Barsa. 8)

"Couldn't you be a little more gentle?" Ha-ha-ha-ha....
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Old 2007-06-16, 20:50   Link #530
TinyRedLeaf
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^ Well....we already know who the dominant partner in that relationship is after all...

Tanda, from Episode 6:
"I feel like the wife of some warrior."

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Old 2007-06-16, 22:01   Link #531
leongsh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluWacky View Post
Anyway, still catching up slowly with SnM. Really not "feeling" the show very much; I appreciate it from a technical viewpoint and appreciate how well crafted it is, but somehow it just bores me to tears on a regular basis which is really disappointing. I'd love to read the books, though. Maybe it'll pick up in a bit.
I do think it all comes down to what do you expect from the show. It's a talkie for sure and not one where action predominates. If this show is a large jigsaw puzzle, most of the recent episodes are smaller separate parts that we are seeing being made which gives us either a glimpse as to how each of these parts will link up or guessing its eventual placement.

Each episode that does not seem to add on to the main storyline is actually being used to show the world to us and delve deeper into each character so as to let them show more of themselves. The recent episode, Episode 11, gives us a glimpse into the spirit world and a hint of the possibilities that the shamans with the knowledge and skill can do. There's also more exposition between Balsa and Tanda. The speed with which Balsa reacts in late in the episode with respect to Tanda gives us a clear-cut indication how much Tanda means to Balsa when we already know how much Balsa means to Tanda from the earlier episodes.

This show is a very nice change in that not is it just technically excellent but it uses one of the mature ways of storytelling that is not often found in anime that link up in one way or another when it is doing exposition outside the main storyline. Perhaps you are more attuned to a more linear storytelling direction with sufficient and regular doses of action thrown in in comparison with how this show is being done.
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Old 2007-06-17, 03:09   Link #532
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
What's this? A comparison between Seirei and Mushishi? Oh man, what would Cal-Reflector say? *prepares to get stoned in public*
Heh. Sorry for responding late, but yeah that incident (Which one? ). To clarify tho, since people have started wondering about comparisons between the two, I shouldn't have used the word "comparison." As TRL has said, its not a comparison between similarities in the show, but just a similarity in the feeling of me, as the veiwer, when I watch Seirei. What I'm feeling about Seirei now, as how a great show it is and so on, is what I was feeling about Mushishi back then, like TRL.

I'll say my farewells here too, bye guys!
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Old 2007-06-17, 04:30   Link #533
gaguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
To be honest, I'm at a loss of how to explain myself to you if that still wasn't clear enough so this is my last post on this matter before it gets too out of hand.

An omnipotent, far-reaching perspective and world building—are these two incompatible to you? (Twelve Kingdoms even has narration.) The overall scope, the bigger picture, of the story of Twelve Kingdoms is derived more from the setting itself. In the end, you're really just watching (or reading) about the fantastic world that Youko arrives in. This is not to say that Youko is worthless.
I'm sorry to hear that you completely missed out my question. I'm not confused on what you meant, I was merely expressing the fact that I found your idea ridiculous based on my observations. All I asked for was your reasonings behind it (i.e. examples that you can bring to make me consider it critically, like I did to convince you), since anyone can say just about anything without backing it up.

I was hoping you could provide something more solid to reinforce your idea that is different than mine but I am thinking that is too much to ask without being faced with some level of animosity so I'll stop asking here.

And the last statement applies to just about every anime in existence, you have to be watching the world somehow. I once again, fail to see how majority of all that is seen from anything but Youko's perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe
Seirei is something else. Similarly, it's an adventure and a drama, but so far it seems that we're not going to get directly educated about the history of New Yogo and the philosophy and cosmology it abides in—at least, not in the same level as Twelve Kingdoms. Its setting, while beautiful and important, matters "less."
We were only concerned with in which perspective the world was painted, not how much of it, since no one objected about Twelve Kingdoms lacking any details of its setting.
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Old 2007-06-17, 05:16   Link #534
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
I'm sorry to hear that you completely missed out my question. I'm not confused on what you meant, I was merely expressing the fact that I found your idea ridiculous based on my observations. All I asked for was your reasonings behind it (i.e. examples that you can bring to make me consider it critically, like I did to convince you), since anyone can say just about anything without backing it up.

I was hoping you could provide something more solid to reinforce your idea that is different than mine but I am thinking that is too much to ask without being faced with some level of animosity so I'll stop asking here.
...Animosity? "...like I did to convince you?" Forgive me if I sounded bluntly direct a while ago—which can happen sometimes—but man, what's with the attitude? Moreover, I don't go off saying that another person's comments are "ridiculous" especially if I would like to extend a discussion meaningfully.

As for examples, I already cited some though they may be a bit general perhaps. I respect your opinions, and I simply shared some ideas of my own. But I can already see this is going to go nowhere. If you choose not to consider them critically, then that's your choice. I figured that the discussion would either end up going in circles or confusing, hence why I decided to cut myself short. And besides, such a topic belongs in the Twelve Kingdoms thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri
And the last statement applies to just about every anime in existence, you have to be watching the world somehow. I once again, fail to see how majority of all that is seen from anything but Youko's perspective.
I didn't say "anything but Youko's perspective."


Episode 11. All in all, I think that it's a "feel good" episode overall. A lot of nice moments—from the view of Nayugu, to all those things left unsaid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Tanda, from Episode 6:
"I feel like the wife of some warrior."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrProphet
"Couldn't you be a little more gentle?" Ha-ha-ha-ha....
Heh, those are like two of my favorite scenes from the anime. Tanda better not piss off that husband of his.
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Old 2007-06-17, 05:41   Link #535
gaguri
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...um I will apologise since it is apparent that I have unintentionally offended you. I only said it was ridiculous because, well, it seemed ridiculous. But I guess it may have been more polite to instead use the word 'questionable'. I personally am willing to listen to someone even if he was arguing my points were moot given that it was a reasonable argument that is leading to a 'meaningful discussion', so I'm sorry to have forgotten that not everyone share my feelings. And I too agree that this is going no where ^__^

Quote:
I didn't say "anything but Youko's perspective."
Just to clarify the confusion...I know
I said that. I've been saying that from the beginning as my point of view ^__^

And from the comments made on the latest episode, I might as well give up on my great expectations indefinitely and settle for enjoying the intrigues at a leisurable pace. After all, those moments aren't so bad.
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Old 2007-06-17, 11:33   Link #536
Saffire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
...um I will apologise since it is apparent that I have unintentionally offended you. I only said it was ridiculous because, well, it seemed ridiculous. But I guess it may have been more polite to instead use the word 'questionable'. I personally am willing to listen to someone even if he was arguing my points were moot given that it was a reasonable argument that is leading to a 'meaningful discussion', so I'm sorry to have forgotten that not everyone share my feelings. And I too agree that this is going no where ^__^


Just to clarify the confusion...I know :)
I said that. I've been saying that from the beginning as my point of view ^__^

And from the comments made on the latest episode, I might as well give up on my great expectations indefinitely and settle for enjoying the intrigues at a leisurable pace. After all, those moments aren't so bad.
Well, having read each of your "arguments" to some extent, I really don't find his theory different or wrong at all. I understand what he's trying to get across. I haven't seen the Twelve Kingdoms but I understand what he's trying to say in comparing the two's means of storytelling side-by-side.

Maybe I can help explain what he's trying to say. ^_^

Lets take books for example. There are several types of stories: milieu, character driven, and plot driven. (Maybe more, but these are the main three). Character driven stories are those that focus solely on the characters and use them--the characters themselves--to pretty much be the plot. In the anime world, you'd probably compare character driven stories to "Slice of Life" genre ones. For instance, Haibane Renmei or Azumanga Dai-oh. They don't tend to really have some kind of stellar "save the world" plot... Azumanga definitely doesn't. It depends on the characters to move whatever story they have along. Note that this is at the very high spectrum of character-driven stories.

Plot driven stories are just..well.. pretty self explanatory. You'd probably compare them to "ye olde" main Shounen types of stories. It's the "Character must save the world by collecting so many of these items to default the Ultimate Evil bad guy" or something. Not to say it's just that old story-line I made up. I'd probably call Fullmetal Alchemist one of these, and it still has awesome characters.

Then, there is milieu type stories. This stories pretty much sacrifice everything to focus their story on the setting and culture of the world the characters live in. This is most common in Fantasy Genre stories. The biggest example of a milieu story I could give you would probably be the book The Lord of the Rings. I don't know if you've read it or not, but if you have, you'll probably note Tolkein's long, drawn out descriptions of the land he's made, going so far as to delve into the cultures of the people there. The characters and plot are made rather secondary. I love the characters, but to Tolkein, the setting comes first. I honestly don't know what anime I could compare this to, but perhaps Kino's Journey would fit the bill. Kino gets to travel from world to world, seeing how each and every culture works and operates. From the Book Town, to the town where people's lives are focused solely on work.. whatever.

Keep in mind that all these examples are not to say characters, plot, etc. are still not important to each of these stories. Character driven can have a bigger plot, plot driven can still have incredibly developed characters.... This is just what they tend to be.

What Kujoe was saying was not too far different. All he was saying, whether he was correct in saying so or not (as I haven't seen it, I can't say), was that The Twelve Kingdom's focus and way to go about telling and moving the story is a little different than Seirei no Moribito's.

If I understand things correctly, The Twelve Kingdoms spends a bit of time immersing the viewer into the world itself, how it works, the culture, politics, etc, even if it means warding off the character development somewhat in doing so. The story wants you to see the world and all its complexities. Yoko is there to help you understand it, and though her character development comes, and no doubt comes in loads from what I hear, they still focus a lot on the setting and how the unfamiliar world Yoko's landed in works. In simple terms, they want to Flesh out the World more for the watcher.

In Seirei, it's a little different. They still show us a little bit of the world, yes, but it doesn't seem to be the main focus. From the way the plot is creeping along right now, what we're seeing is pretty much the very characters themselves moving and keeping the story afloat. The world and its customs just isn't the main focus at this point at time, and I somehow don't think it will be. For instance, in Episode 10 we get to see how perceptive Chagum is, and see him get used to daily life.

I dunno if I'm getting what he's saying or not. Maybe I'm just an airhead that doesn't know anything. But in any case, I'd probably enjoy both shows, and no doubt The Twelve Kingdoms is as kick-butt awesome as this one is.

And yeah, I liked the newest episode, too. Any episode that focuses on Tanda is just bonus points for me. And I love how the roles seem to switched a little bit in this show, with Tanda seeming more like the usual waiting woman and Balsa, the warrior that always leaves. Ah, and Chagum's awesome perception just rocks. I loved that all-knowing look he gave Tanda and Balsa at the end of the episode.
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Old 2007-06-17, 13:21   Link #537
4Tran
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Well, in episode 9, Seirei no Moribito was settling down a little bit, and the wuxia feel started fading a bit. However, it came right back in episode 10. This kind of story is so archetypical of Chinese storytelling that I found it extremely predictable. However, I love the archetype so I found it extremely entertaining nonetheless. It's really a shame that anime is such an unpopular venue for pure historical fiction because I would love to see this kind of thing more often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri
And the last statement applies to just about every anime in existence, you have to be watching the world somehow. I once again, fail to see how majority of all that is seen from anything but Youko's perspective.
While the Sea of Shadows is told mostly from Yoko's perspective (it's only natural given that the orginal novel is told in limited omniscient format), a lot of the focus is less on her character than it is on the setting. What's unusual is the sheer amount of attention to detail that's placed on subjects that really have nothing to do with the characters. Yoko's only a small player on a very big canvas, and that's the very nature of the Twelve Kingdoms universe.

In comparison, so far, the canvas in Seirei no Moribito is only a little larger than what the characters see. While there are many mysteries to uncover, we can be reasonably sure that the majority of them will be addressed by the final curtain. If something doesn't concern the characters, then the story won't talk about it much, and the focus is on the things that do concern the characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffire
I honestly don't know what anime I could compare this to, but perhaps Kino's Journey would fit the bill.
I would venture that the Crest of the Stars series and Legend of the Galactic Heroes also fit fairly well (the former more so than the latter).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffire
If I understand things correctly, The Twelve Kingdoms spends a bit of time immersing the viewer into the world itself, how it works, the culture, politics, etc, even if it means warding off the character development somewhat in doing so. The story wants you to see the world and all its complexities. Yoko is there to help you understand it, and though her character development comes, and no doubt comes in loads from what I hear, they still focus a lot on the setting and how the unfamiliar world Yoko's landed in works. In simple terms, they want to Flesh out the World more for the watcher.
Another way of looking at is that a lot of the things that we learn about the world of the Twelve Kingdoms doesn't have anything to do with the plot, nor do they really affect the characters all that much. That information is intended purely to give the viewers/readers a better idea of the way the different setting elements interact with one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffire
In Seirei, it's a little different. They still show us a little bit of the world, yes, but it doesn't seem to be the main focus. From the way the plot is creeping along right now, what we're seeing is pretty much the very characters themselves moving and keeping the story afloat. The world and its customs just isn't the main focus at this point at time, and I somehow don't think it will be. For instance, in Episode 10 we get to see how perceptive Chagum is, and see him get used to daily life.
That's absolutely spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffire
I dunno if I'm getting what he's saying or not. Maybe I'm just an airhead that doesn't know anything. But in any case, I'd probably enjoy both shows, and no doubt The Twelve Kingdoms is as kick-butt awesome as this one is.
Given your insight, you won't be disappointed.
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Old 2007-06-17, 14:15   Link #538
SeijiSensei
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Ep. 10 is now subbed.

Spoiler for Chagum's luck:

Just a reminder to those of you watching raws. I almost stopped following this thread recently for fear of spoilers. Any time you're discussing an episode that hasn't yet been fansubbed, many of us would prefer that you put any such discussion in spoiler tags. Since I can't tell you where the subs are, I'll be glad to be the official "notifier" and post when they've become available as I have for the last two episodes. Though, to be honest, they're not that hard to find. To give you some idea of how long to wait, the raws for episode ten were posted on 6/9 and the subs became available today (6/17). Considering the quality of the subs, that's pretty damn good. Add a couple of days for everyone to have a chance to watch the subs before removing spoiler tags; ten days after airing ought to be enough.

There are only two series I watch almost immediately after the subs are released, this show and Nodame Cantabile.
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Old 2007-06-17, 17:23   Link #539
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saffire
Maybe I can help explain what he's trying to say. ^_^
Thank you.

Your explanation is much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Spoiler for Chagum's luck:
Spoiler:

On another note, I also like Balsa's final line in episode ten. I'm just wondering if those very same words will prove to be ironic in the coming future.
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Old 2007-06-17, 17:46   Link #540
orion
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Either way, it's dragging imo. We're almost at the half way point for the series and there's no clear direction that Chagum has to go yet. I hope that this doesn't make a mad dash to tie loose ends at the end.
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