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Old 2007-08-14, 06:23   Link #861
lommm
l'homme de lommm
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
About the only thing he could do to make it worse is invade Iraq.
rofl
and then go play golf.
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Old 2007-08-14, 07:22   Link #862
gaguri
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Yea, now there are speculations about the Emperor and/or Holy Sage doing the biddings of fire people for a reason completely unknown to us, this is all getting better and better isn't it?

I mean, if I was the Emperor, I too would personally beat the living hell out of Holy Sage if he lied to me and made me go ninja on my own son. But it's not out of question to think that the Emperor has recognised the fault of Holy Sage to be only a human flaw and overwhelmed by the joy of hearing that his son is still alive, he left the issue alone. And it seems like Shuga and the hunters also bought this, and didn't raise any question of punishing Holy Sage more than stripping his control away. Were they so thick to not have realised this most obvious truth behind the Emperor's shocking decision to not punish Holy Sage? I doubt it.


Perhaps he didn't punish the sage because he is more of 'forget the past and lets work towards the future' person (yea that kind of real nice person), or perhaps Holy Sage really was that insignificant and wasn't important enough to spend great deal of unnecessary drama of the series into his head being chopped off. However, there still is the possibility of Holy Sage or Emperor working as a shadow of unknown and larger forces, but I'd be personally disappointed if the series used its remaining episodes to go even more into that messy political web instead of giving more details behind the fantastic elements (which I hope, has a symbolic representation like many great fantasy anime do).
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Old 2007-08-14, 07:38   Link #863
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
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The Emperor and Holy sage are upholding the goverment and traditions of the well...the goverment..the "people" are merely livestock to them.

They found out rather late about the real history and what was inflicting Chagum plus they do not know about "fate" and the reasons why Balsa is not letting go of him, they don't want to know they just do what they are told.

As for Shuga hes in between a rock and a hard place he cares for the prince and is loyal to the court,while he might not dismiss commoners as livestock hes still a bit stuck up and overly focused on getting Chagum to return whatever the cost.

Neither side is ready to talk to each other,well mostly the court is so full of itself it can not stay its hand long enough to be talked too.
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Old 2007-08-14, 09:11   Link #864
gaguri
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I don't know, the emperor seems like a reasonable person to me, who cares a lot about both his people and his son. Although I'd have to say he's a naive character, since he was naive enough to think that Sagum was fit enough as a crown prince and naive enough to let history founded on fallacy take Chagum's life.
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Old 2007-08-14, 11:10   Link #865
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
I don't know, the emperor seems like a reasonable person to me, who cares a lot about both his people and his son. Although I'd have to say he's a naive character, since he was naive enough to think that Sagum was fit enough as a crown prince and naive enough to let history founded on fallacy take Chagum's life.
Mmmm well I might be lumping charatcers together on their distaste for commoners ,however they just found out after the fact what the true history is because it was locked away from everyone but a select few Holy men and even they did not know of it,it took Shuga to find this info out.

What we don't know is whos pulling the strings why for the false history,I believe the court will take care of its own before all else thus we have the current troubles of not trying to reach out to Balsa and talk to her.

there are a lot of pieces moving about
the court will do for the court ( hunters and holy men ).

Shuga aids the court for the prince he knew I believe in the end he would betray them for the prince,Shuga seems the dutiful type not to some abstract goverment but to his prince,because of this he will walk in the darkness.

we have the emperor whos partially aloof due to tradition whos hands are seemingly tied to them.

We have a false history who's true meaning has not been reviled (yes we know it was to create the new goverment but there has to be something more)

We have the empress as well however I believe she has no power right now and can do nothing more than ask Balsa to return the prince,but men being men wont even ask or use this thought process.

We finally also have Balsas group and Chagum and the fate surrounding Chagum and less than 10 eps to finish it all in, let the pieces fall where they may it will none the less be beautiful .
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Old 2007-08-14, 12:32   Link #866
xPresagio
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Finally reached the 17 chapter.

I have been reading your comments and theories in lurking mode, and would actually like to add yet another one that could wrap the questions:

In case it comes true:
Spoiler:


Just a thought.




Extra: The behavior of Karbo after being defeated didn't seem odd to me. At all. When he faces Balsa for the 1st time, he let us know -without any shade or doubt- that even since he was defeated, he has had only one thought: to destroy Balsa. He even said to have "fantasized" about it. And the reason is not that he lost, but rather, that he lost to someone that was using a "poor" objective such as protect someone else (that it was no warrior). He thanks to the gods for getting a new chance. And blatantly says, that if he were to fail once again, it would means total defeat, regardless if he kept practicing. Notice that for him, is not enough to physically kill Balsa. He wants to prove a point -that his motives are superior than those from her, but mostly, that him being defeated and not dying back then, was more due to cheap tricks. That there most have been another reason. That's why he is "trying" to level the ground by using a similar weapon. It's not a matter of a simple "pay back" or vengeance. He is putting his future at stake.

That's why when he hears the actual explanation of why she didn't kill him, he snaps. It wasn't about skills, or about some special, high purpose. She just didn't want to kill people. It would have been the same, if he were anyone else. -His existence, was effectively reduced to nothing.


Later, him rising and acting like that, remembered me to the way young German marines from the Bismarck behaved after it was sunk -back in 2nd WW: They were raised to believe that Hitler, the nazi, and ultimately the Germans, were superior beings. That no one could defeat them. They were even more special, because were staff of the most powerful and impressive ship of all History. Yet, when they faced total defeat, lying there, in the cold waters, it probably felt as if all their existence was just a facade. No longer relevant. It took several days, with strong chemics to bring them back from their almost zombi-like behaviour.


But at the end, the fact that he didn't die (even when Balsa directly says that was her purpose to kill him), it's probably associated to the notion of the "ultimate weapon". I'm not sure that it will be used to kill Chagum, though.

Last edited by xPresagio; 2007-08-14 at 13:10.
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Old 2007-08-14, 14:34   Link #867
EasyPrey
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@xPresagio, great insight! I am impressed by your reasoning.

The only point that is nagging me is why did anyone not ask the most obvious question: Holy Sage, why did you lie to us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xPresagio View Post
Who knows. Maybe the Mon//Jin/big guy may have to face an unexpected enemy, not Balsa herself. And also maybe, the egg eater was more cunning that we initially believed.
I personally think that the "egg eater" is just a being. Kinda like Galactus. Those beings just go about their business and are generally indifferent to the consequences to other species (this is kinda like you eating meat). I just cannot see the egg eater (probably a super natural being), being involved in plots or politics. There is no gain for such a being to do so.

However, the fire people and the water people have a vested interest. They already told us that all the worlds are "linked". The same spirit bestows water on all the worlds. Water is the very source of life (for our planet) and the water people. Water is the very source of death for the fire people. For them, it is a matter of life or death.

There was an excellent story told in Stargate SG-1 (Season 4, episode 16 "2010" and Season 5, episode 10, "2001"). It was a story of a race of beings, that conquered planets (and killed the native population), without firing a single shot. I think the fire people are using the same tactics.

I think it would be difficult for the fire people to actually come here and "fight" (since they cannot exist in our plane of existence). Instead, they put a plan in motion (that appointed a fake emperor). The plan only had a chance of success once every hundred years. But a long term plan is better than no plan at all.

----------------------------------

I would like to thank lommm, gaguri, wao, and xPresagio for getting us started in this great discussion and contributing to it. I think collectively those made this dying thread come back to life.

Spoiler for Episode 19, the "bestest" episode since episode 3:


-EasyPrey
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Old 2007-08-14, 15:12   Link #868
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler for Episode 19, the "bestest" episode since episode 3:
Not really. They do recognize Chagum as the Prince, but they're also loyal to their country, and thus their Emperor. Only time will tell, if their allegiances will shift or not.
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Old 2007-08-14, 16:48   Link #869
EasyPrey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
Not really. They do recognize Chagum as the Prince, but they're also loyal to their country, and thus their Emperor. Only time will tell, if their allegiances will shift or not.
Spoiler for Episode 19 discussion (leading into episode 20):


-EasyPrey
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Old 2007-08-14, 17:15   Link #870
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler for Episode 19 discussion (leading into episode 20):
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-08-15, 01:41   Link #871
wao
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EasyPrey: You don't know what a dead thread is for an ongoing show... yet This gets lengthy discussions almost every other day, I swear!

I have no idea how I came into the picture though, since I've just been watching everyone discuss the motives of the Emperor and Shuga and so on.

I think kujoe nailed the doubt I have about your theory right down when he said
Spoiler for 19/20:
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Old 2007-08-15, 09:52   Link #872
EasyPrey
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Answer encompasing the latest raw (ep 19):


I have said it before, and I will say it again. This Anime spent a tremendous amount of time in building Chagum's character. I guarantee* that the audience will be given a "reward" for this tremendous investment of time. Chagum will take command of the "situation". The only question is whether he does that in the next episode, or the last episode of the season.

-EasyPrey

* All Guarantees are non-binding and completely meaningless.
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Old 2007-08-15, 11:03   Link #873
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
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Wall of text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler for Answer encompasing the latest raw (ep 19):
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
Spoiler:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
Spoiler:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
Spoiler:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
I have said it before, and I will say it again. This Anime spent a tremendous amount of time in building Chagum's character. I guarantee* that the audience will be given a "reward" for this tremendous investment of time. Chagum will take command of the "situation". The only question is whether he does that in the next episode, or the last episode of the season.
Oh, I have no doubt that Chagum's character will shine as a character in the story. But like wao, I'm not sure how. I'm sure he won't be ignored in the story. And he isn't being ignored at all.

Last edited by kujoe; 2007-08-15 at 12:57.
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Old 2007-08-15, 11:19   Link #874
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by xPresagio View Post
Finally reached the 17 chapter.

I have been reading your comments and theories in lurking mode, and would actually like to add yet another one that could wrap the questions:

In case it comes true:
Spoiler:


Just a thought.




Extra: The behavior of Karbo after being defeated didn't seem odd to me. At all. When he faces Balsa for the 1st time, he let us know -without any shade or doubt- that even since he was defeated, he has had only one thought: to destroy Balsa. He even said to have "fantasized" about it. And the reason is not that he lost, but rather, that he lost to someone that was using a "poor" objective such as protect someone else (that it was no warrior). He thanks to the gods for getting a new chance. And blatantly says, that if he were to fail once again, it would means total defeat, regardless if he kept practicing. Notice that for him, is not enough to physically kill Balsa. He wants to prove a point -that his motives are superior than those from her, but mostly, that him being defeated and not dying back then, was more due to cheap tricks. That there most have been another reason. That's why he is "trying" to level the ground by using a similar weapon. It's not a matter of a simple "pay back" or vengeance. He is putting his future at stake.

That's why when he hears the actual explanation of why she didn't kill him, he snaps. It wasn't about skills, or about some special, high purpose. She just didn't want to kill people. It would have been the same, if he were anyone else. -His existence, was effectively reduced to nothing.


Later, him rising and acting like that, remembered me to the way young German marines from the Bismarck behaved after it was sunk -back in 2nd WW: They were raised to believe that Hitler, the nazi, and ultimately the Germans, were superior beings. That no one could defeat them. They were even more special, because were staff of the most powerful and impressive ship of all History. Yet, when they faced total defeat, lying there, in the cold waters, it probably felt as if all their existence was just a facade. No longer relevant. It took several days, with strong chemics to bring them back from their almost zombi-like behaviour.


But at the end, the fact that he didn't die (even when Balsa directly says that was her purpose to kill him), it's probably associated to the notion of the "ultimate weapon". I'm not sure that it will be used to kill Chagum, though.
Very nicely said,I think that jin wanted to save the father/on from the horrid fate and kill charum himself but balsa knocked him out before he could,even so it pained him to try it and after which it only stiffed his loylity/worry/care to the prince(if I mixed up charatcers sorry).

I thought the Karbo/Balsa fight was mystical and wonderfully done if you think to much about it might ruin the experance,she has yet to learn to put everything into a fight without killing someone,it shows that if she could throw off her fear and doubts she could destroy her oppants without killing or maiming them.


Thoughts aside that fight was just feelings in motion more than "thinking"..if that makes any sense...
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Old 2007-08-15, 13:58   Link #875
EasyPrey
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Spoiler for Response to kujoe's comments (episode 19 raw):


-EasyPrey
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Old 2007-08-15, 14:05   Link #876
kujoe
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler:
My guess?

Spoiler:
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Old 2007-08-15, 14:06   Link #877
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler for Response to kujoe's comments (episode 19 raw):


-EasyPrey
Spoiler for thoughts mew:
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Old 2007-08-15, 14:38   Link #878
EasyPrey
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
My guess?

Spoiler:
Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:


About the egg eater

The egg eater is most likely not human. We learned about it in episode 14. It is probably from the water people's plane of existence (but not sure). The water people knew quite a bit about it. We know next to nothing about it.


-EasyPrey
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Old 2007-08-15, 14:48   Link #879
kujoe
from head to heel
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey
Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:
Spoiler:

But anyway, from the looks of the preview for the next episode, this matter might not be addressed anyway. It seems like they have a plan of some sort.

Last edited by kujoe; 2007-08-15 at 15:08.
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Old 2007-08-15, 14:50   Link #880
ZippyDSM
Incoherance is my friend!
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPrey View Post
Spoiler for episode 19 stuff:


About the egg eater

The egg eater is most likely not human. We learned about it in episode 14. It is probably from the water people's plane of existence (but not sure). The water people knew quite a bit about it. We know next to nothing about it.


-EasyPrey
Spoiler for mew thoughts:
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