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View Poll Results: How would you rate these genious'?
Itatchi is the best genious to date, there are no comparisons. 37 56.92%
Neji can compare to Itatchi, both are more of a genious than Sasuke. 21 32.31%
Sasuke can compare to Itatchi, both are more of a genious than Neji. 7 10.77%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-11-14, 10:25   Link #21
DestinyFate
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In terms of genius I think is neji and maybe sasuke in 2nd as there isn't anyone around to teach him the dragon fire jutsu and phoenix fire jutsu either

In terms of fighting ability itachi owns them all!!
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Old 2006-11-14, 10:41   Link #22
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
Also, for those who joked about "what the majority believes doesn't determine the truth", look that it even has a definition:
I wasn't joking about that statement. I just anticipated your argument based on your posts, which stress strict and literal adherence to manga and databook facts. And it looks like you did just that based on the statement in your previous post.

Quote:
BTW, the results of a poll its not a reflection on Facts, why????
That's why I added the laughing emoticon.

So no need to go researching textbook definitions when I wasn't disagreeing in the first place 'kay Matlock?

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Originally Posted by DestinyFate
In terms of genius I think is neji and maybe sasuke in 2nd as there isn't anyone around to teach him the dragon fire jutsu and phoenix fire jutsu either
Sasuke's father taught him the handseals for those jutsu, plus Katon jutsu is commonly used outside the Uchiha clan.
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Old 2006-11-14, 10:54   Link #23
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I wasn't joking about that statement. I just anticipated your argument based on your posts, which stress strict and literal adherence to manga and databook facts. And it looks like you did just that based on the statement in your previous post.

That's why I added the laughing emoticon.

So no need to go researching textbook definitions when I wasn't disagreeing in the first place 'kay Matlock?.
You should be clear as You used my name, And make the quote as it seems as a Sarcasm, and not an agreement, if you had let the Laughing icon out of it, I would had see it as you agreeing with it, and not a sarcasm.

But, Practically all I have posted in this Thread is strongly my Opinions, which, Yah, You could say, its is very rare to see me Making Opinions that are no way tied to Factual information.

And donít worry, I did not research for the terminology, as Iím very well familiar with those type or terminologies as one of me degree works very closely to this types of terms.
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Old 2006-11-14, 10:57   Link #24
DestinyFate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I wasn't joking about that statement. I just anticipated your argument based on your posts, which stress strict and literal adherence to manga and databook facts. And it looks like you did just that based on the statement in your previous post.



That's why I added the laughing emoticon.

So no need to go researching textbook definitions when I wasn't disagreeing in the first place 'kay Matlock?



Sasuke's father taught him the handseals for those jutsu, plus Katon jutsu is commonly used outside the Uchiha clan.
I only remembered his father teaching him gokakyu or grand fire ball jutsu
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:01   Link #25
s-class uchiha
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I voted for the second choice, as After Itachi reach 11 YO he gained the MS (which gaining MS the way he did does not has anything to do with Genius), which practically help him jump his level of strength and power, whereas Neeji, Get to create 2 Jutsu that already existed, that is as he invented them by himself.

For what Neeji did, I consider him to be above Itachi in terms of genius. and if of any Help, I consider also Yondaime, Orochimaru and Kakashi above Itachi in terms of genius.

-------


BTW, the results of a poll its not a reflection on Facts, why????



Rave could be the one Been right, and the one who is better genius is Sasuke.

Also, for those who joked about "what the majority believes doesn't determine the truth", look that it even has a definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Well you are basing your argument on an assumption that Itachi has the MS before he was Anbu captain. I have to disagree b/c he got it after he killed Uchiha Shishui and shortly after he killed the clan. I don't think the was captain for 2 weeks...

Also, how do you know that Tsukiyomi and Amateretsu are easy to discover, they may in fact be harder to figure out than kaiten and 128 divinity blah blah hands or whatever.

There have been lots of ppl who have gotten to be jounin early on, however Itachi is the only one so far who has become ANBU captain, only thing more impressive is Sarutobi being officially recognized as going to be hokage so early on.

Also, in terms of genius, Kakashi is "comparable," but its like if you take 2 ppl who got 100% on their SAT but one goes on to win the Nobel Prize and the other wins a local competition not much of comparison.

Besides, if you look at young Kakashi at 13 he was NOWHERE NEAR ANBU captain level.
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:03   Link #26
Rurik
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Originally Posted by s-class uchiha View Post
Well you are basing your argument on an assumption that Itachi has the MS before he was Anbu captain. I have to disagree b/c he got it after he killed Uchiha Shishui and shortly after he killed the clan. I don't think the was captain for 2 weeks...
.

It is a fact that he gained the MS when he was 11 Years old, 2 years before the Massacre.

We know that because it was the same day Sasuke received his first semester scorecard, And Sasuke joined the Academy when Itahci was 10 and something years old, So that makes Itachi around 11 When he gained the MS.

And this is not about strength this is about Genius, Kakashi has done a couple of thing, which make me consider him better genius than Itachi. So taking the level of power Itachi had compared to Kakshi does not serve to determine a better genius.
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:33   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
Yes, I agree with this.

I always liked to say Itachi is a genius multiplied (genius by himself + Sharingan = great results) whereas Sasuke is a genius just because of Sharingan. Itachi is a genius himself like Kakashi and Neji are, plus the Sharingan which greatly improves growth and whatnot hence he managed to get so far at a really young age. If we are just to be honest, Sasuke has never done anything really that outstanding before he aquired Sharingan.
I mean what did he do? Train like fucking hell just so he could show his dad his super grades in school? Next thing, train like fucking hell because he wished to some day defeat his brother. And still he was mediocre, imo, for someone classified as a genius.

Fact is, which no one can deny, Sasuke had to practice and train like fuck in order to get the rep he got at the end of his times in the academy, whereas Itachi was a natural genius and didn't seem to put any effort into stuff at all. And still, Itachi was considered a greater genius than Sasuke, by far.
In fact, if it wasn't for Sharingan, Sasuke would be a mere dropout like Lee and Naruto. A hardworker instead of a genius. Cause frankly that's what he used to be, a hardworker.

Now to the idiot Sasuke fans who will likely all jump on my throat for this, I'm not saying Sasuke sucks, or won't get just as strong. I'm saying he doesn't seem much of a genius, which isn't that important a feature (I mean just look at Naruto). Especially compared to Yondaime and Neji, who managed to come up with stuff by themselves. Their genius minds, capable of coming up with stuff of their own, whereas Sasuke needs / depends on Sharingan.


Both inherited their clans ability apparently to the max. But, Sharingan is what makes you grow fast, not Byakugan. Byakugan's ability requires a lot of training still if you are to take advantage of it, Sharingan's ability is exactly what makes you skip training, so there's just a little difference. And it's in favor of Itachi.

That said, they're both equal geniuses, it's just Itachi's kekkei genkai is exactly what defines a genius, so it gives him a boost, unlike Byakugan for Neji. If we were just to think his additional "unfair" growth away, both would be fairly equal.
You bring up some good points. First off being that actually both Sasuke and Neji had to do some hardcore training, while Itatchi was even more of a "natural" then they. He was just naturally talented, more so than others.

Now when comparing him to Neji we have to think, was Itatchi exceling faster than others like Sasuke/Neji because of the sharingan, or because he was naturally gifted as a fighter and Sharingan user. Sharingan certainly helps in learning hand seal jutsu, but it doesn't help in other important training like molding chakra (etc), speed, power, and cunning.

Besides his jutsu, i believe his speed/overall ability was much higher than both Sasuke and Neji at any age. He would have to be, because when he defeated his entire village it certainly wasn't using MS, and he would have to be fast enough to actually hit other Sharingan users, and fight cunningly to defeat an entire clan.

To sum up, i think Itatchi would still have been better than both Neji/Sasuke without his sharingan at all (at their age).
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:34   Link #28
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
You should be clear as You used my name, And make the quote as it seems as a Sarcasm, and not an agreement, if you had let the Laughing icon out of it, I would had see it as you agreeing with it, and not a sarcasm.
It didn't strike me as sarcastic at the time, but I suppose I can see it interpreted that way. My bad on that one.

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And donít worry, I did not research for the terminology, as Iím very well familiar with those type or terminologies as one of me degree works very closely to this types of terms.
I figured as much reading your discussions.


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Originally Posted by DestinyFate
I only remembered his father teaching him gokakyu or grand fire ball jutsu
Still, Katon jutsu are not restricted to a certain group of users. Though Uchiha use them most. Anyone who wants to learn those jutsu can look up the hand seals and as long as they have the proper chakra capacity/control, perform the jutsu.
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:37   Link #29
Mr. Johnny 5
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Originally Posted by miss rave View Post
I think Neji is a genius to have done what he's done, and in a way equal with what Itachi did yes.

But i don't think either are more genius than my Sasuke, no way.
I've seen so far only 1 post for Sasuke...and i wonder who posted that....
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:40   Link #30
Dauthi
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I've seen so far only 1 post for Sasuke...and i wonder who posted that....
lol.

Seriously though, i didn't think everyone disliked Sasuke this much. I always thought of him as rather gifted. Hell, he is Kishi's fav character, so i thought he was portrayed well as a gifted ninja... *shrug*
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:41   Link #31
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
lol.

Seriously though, i didn't think everyone disliked Sasuke this much. I always thought of him as rather gifted. Hell, he is Kishi's fav character, so i thought he was portrayed well as a gifted ninja... *shrug*

Hahhah, You have no Idea at how much Sasuke is hated
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:52   Link #32
s-class uchiha
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
It is a fact that he gained the MS when he was 11 Years old, 2 years before the Massacre.

We know that because it was the same day Sasuke received his first semester scorecard, And Sasuke joined the Academy when Itahci was 10 and something years old, So that makes Itachi around 11 When he gained the MS.

And this is not about strength this is about Genius, Kakashi has done a couple of thing, which make me consider him better genius than Itachi. So taking the level of power Itachi had compared to Kakshi does not serve to determine a better genius.
Well from the flashback we can see that the death of Shishui (and gaining the MS) is not that much further away than the Massacre. We also know that he was ANBU captain at 13, therefore it was not at age 11 when he got the MS.

yes its not about strength, but I'm was just questioning your assumptions that "just b/c he has the MS" its not impressive that he got so far...

Sounds like also, that Kakashi is not on Sannin lvl b/c he lacks power according to what you're saying.


Edit: From what we've seen minus the MS, there seems to be not too many reasons why Itachi is so far above power as compared to Kakashi than genius, that's why I'm figuring in the power factor.
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Old 2006-11-14, 11:53   Link #33
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The only other person that should be compared to Itachi when it comes to the term "Genius" (with basis of how they use it in Naruto) is Orochimaru.

From my point of view and how I see it. They use the term "Genius" as in naturally talented. For people who astrive with minimal effort.
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Old 2006-11-14, 12:09   Link #34
matsuno
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I love how Xrayz0rquoted part of my statement, and not where I go into why the variables can be misleading. Fact is, now I probly will skip any post he makes in the future, and state without concideration of what he says.

That being stated, I think that people are either over obsessed with Itachi, or overobsessed with Sasuke... or both.

Seriously, the one thing that Kishimoto is making clear to us, is that while 1 may be very strong, everyone has a stylistic disadvantage, and everyone therefore has their foil. Someone that can beat them. He has an equal playing field open to all the nin available. That means that even if your the AL, theres someone out there that has the ability to go one on one with you. Same goes for Itachi, same with every Sannin, the rest of Akatsuki, and every jounin in every other village.

If this weren't the case, there would be no reason for every level of nin to work in teams of at least 2 (save for Jiraiya when we first meet him, though that is more because of dissasociation with others, and striving away from anything that might get him into it with other nin).

P.S. Xrayz0ryour retarded

Jumping onto Itachi vs Kakashi again. Since it seems to be the main flavor of our argument. We learn that Kakashi served as ANBU before attaining a Jounin rank. This signifies that the person, even if in charge of an ANBU squad, are not technically Jounin level (but ostly likely fast approaching it, or just needing the formal designation).

Then to jump on the Kakashi not being a Sannin/Kage level. It would seem that his limitations on his chakra really are the main stem of why he isnt able to be considered as highly as those who have those titles. We know from the fights of those at those levels already used so much Chakra in comparison to the regular Chakra use of the likes of Asuma, Kakashi, and Gai. From summoning things well beyond the size limits most are able to comprehend, to utilizing elemental techniques ranging out of their affilition, and using the top level ninjitsu to try and take an advantage in their fights.

But talking about all that, and talking about it being about how much Chakra one has to use, one could nearly state that this makes Itachi no where truly near a Sannin/Kage level either. He even's up the odds by being able to use techniques that far exceed the strength of regular Jutsus, and has an aility to fully read and not only counter, but develoop a full fight for his opponent, that against most, his Chakra levels mean nothing. Again though, if he uses all his Chkra too fast, he wont be worthwhile in a fight. This also explains why he retreated from Jiraiya in their first meet up (yes I believe that he could take Jiraiya with Kisame's help at that point, had they been at full chakra, reasoning is stated at the start).

Last edited by matsuno; 2006-11-14 at 12:25. Reason: adding
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Old 2006-11-14, 12:22   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I've seen so far only 1 post for Sasuke...and i wonder who posted that....
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Hahhah, You have no Idea at how much Sasuke is hated
-Looks like Miss Rave is all alone on this one. Oddly enough, I feel kind of bad for her. Although I must admit, even I'm somewhat surprised that so many people dislike Sasuke-hime (not that I'm complaining).
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Old 2006-11-14, 12:24   Link #36
Rurik
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Originally Posted by s-class uchiha
Well from the flashback we can see that the death of Shishui (and gaining the MS) is not that much further away than the Massacre. We also know that he was ANBU captain at 13, therefore it was not at age 11 when he got the MS.

Yeah, the Manga is misleading in that aspect, The time Jumps are not indicated, so its really easy to get lost in when Itachi gained the MS, unless you read very well the subtleties in Information:

The fact that Itachi was said to be Chunin at age 10,
then Joining ANBU 6 month later and this same day, Sasuke begun the Academy

And then we see that Sasuke is reading his report card saying First semester report and Sasuke father saying that same day to Itahci that thereís going to be a Uchiha Secret Meeting.

And the next Day The Uchiha cops Saying that he did not went to the meeting last night and that Shisui was found death.

And Also having in mind that Akatsuki stated that Oro left Akatsuki 7 Years Prior to time skip, making Itachi 11 when Oro left Akatsuki, because Oro saw that Itachi was stronger than Him.

If you want me to use Manga Caps for everything I said, just ask, but I think this explanation should help your confusion.

Quote:
yes its not about strength, but I'm was just questioning your assumptions that "just b/c he has the MS" its not impressive that he got so far...

Sounds like also, that Kakashi is not on Sannin lvl b/c he lacks power according to what you're saying.
Iím not saying that is not impressive he has reach so far because the MS, Iím talking about that his source of that Strength of Kage proportions was something he gained not because his genius.
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Old 2006-11-14, 12:45   Link #37
Dauthi
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I love how Xrayz0rquoted part of my statement, and not where I go into why the variables can be misleading. Fact is, now I probly will skip any post he makes in the future, and state without concideration of what he says.

That being stated, I think that people are either over obsessed with Itachi, or overobsessed with Sasuke... or both.

Seriously, the one thing that Kishimoto is making clear to us, is that while 1 may be very strong, everyone has a stylistic disadvantage, and everyone therefore has their foil. Someone that can beat them. He has an equal playing field open to all the nin available. That means that even if your the AL, theres someone out there that has the ability to go one on one with you. Same goes for Itachi, same with every Sannin, the rest of Akatsuki, and every jounin in every other village.

.
Just to remind everyone, this is not about how powerful/strong they are. It is about how fast they excelled because they were naturally talented as a fighter (the definition of a genious).

A lot of abilities/jutsu in naruto seems to be paper/rock/scissors anyways.
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Old 2006-11-14, 12:49   Link #38
matsuno
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Originally Posted by Dauthi View Post
Just to remind everyone, this is not about how powerful/strong they are. It is about how fast they excelled because they were naturally talented as a fighter (the definition of a genious).

A lot of abilities/jutsu in naruto seems to be paper/rock/scissors anyways.
I can completely agree with that, and the idea of power levels was brought up after my original post in which I stated that saying the age of a person becoming a chuunin cannot be a measurement of their genious, because of circumstancial differences in the times they were brought up in.

So if any age should be used as a measurement, looking at when one becomes a Jounin is about the only way, if we are to use someting as a moniquer of accomplishment.
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Old 2006-11-14, 13:25   Link #39
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Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Kakashi/Yondaime promoted in ranks quicker than they should have been due to the war and how Konoha lacked men?

Whereas Itachi gained his high rank through sheer skill.
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Old 2006-11-14, 14:03   Link #40
s-class uchiha
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Yeah, the Manga is misleading in that aspect, The time Jumps are not indicated, so its really easy to get lost in when Itachi gained the MS, unless you read very well the subtleties in Information:

The fact that Itachi was said to be Chunin at age 10,
then Joining ANBU 6 month later and this same day, Sasuke begun the Academy

And then we see that Sasuke is reading his report card saying First semester report and Sasuke father saying that same day to Itahci that thereís going to be a Uchiha Secret Meeting.

And the next Day The Uchiha cops Saying that he did not went to the meeting last night and that Shisui was found death.

And Also having in mind that Akatsuki stated that Oro left Akatsuki 7 Years Prior to time skip, making Itachi 11 when Oro left Akatsuki, because Oro saw that Itachi was stronger than Him.

If you want me to use Manga Caps for everything I said, just ask, but I think this explanation should help your confusion.



Iím not saying that is not impressive he has reach so far because the MS, Iím talking about that his source of that Strength of Kage proportions was something he gained not because his genius.
I don't really diagree although I'm not so sure about 6 months joining ANBU thing it does sound good though. I don't think its that your wrong, but mostly likely something Kishi didn't catch.

If you start from when Itachi was ANBU captain (13 clearly stated by Kakashi) than you get this timeline (kudos to leafninja.com)

17 Yrs. BSS - Uchiha Itachi born.
10 Yrs. BSS - Graduates Academy, becomes Genin.
9 Yrs. BSS - Activates Sharingan for the first time.
7 Yrs. BSS - Passes Chuunin Exam.
5-4 Yrs. BSS - Becomes captain of ANBU. Begins to become disenfranchised with his clan. Accused of murdering Uchiha Shisui. Gains Mangekyou Sharingan.
4-3 Yrs. BSS - Wipes out clan, leaving only Uchiha Sasuke behind. Joins Akatsuki Organization.
0 - Series Start

You could be right and I could also be too ie its Kishimoto's fault.

I don't see how Itachi could leave Konoha at 11 and also be ANBU captain at 13. Again I don't think we misread anything, its just a plot hole.

For the second point, I still think it is his genius that allows him to be so powerful. I guess we just see things differently. But I def. do think Kakashi is a dang genius, just that Itachi is more.
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