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View Poll Results: How would you rate these genious'?
Itatchi is the best genious to date, there are no comparisons. 37 56.92%
Neji can compare to Itatchi, both are more of a genious than Sasuke. 21 32.31%
Sasuke can compare to Itatchi, both are more of a genious than Neji. 7 10.77%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-11-17, 19:33   Link #81
NaOH
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lol this is off topic but lol "genious"?
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Old 2006-11-17, 23:48   Link #82
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I think Neji is a genious.
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Old 2006-11-18, 00:25   Link #83
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Getting your sharingan at an early age means nothing. For all you know, he was scared by a cat at night and that brought out his sharingan. We know it is brought out by stressful situations. He may have been getting spanked by his dad and lo and behold...sharingan! Thats all.
umm, just to refresh your memory. [you even keep up with the manga? :/ ]

Sasuke didn't get the Sharingan when encountering Itachi.

Or during the academy training [Itachi got his then]

Or during stressful situations when fighting the demon brothers.

Or for a large amount of time when fighting Haku.

Everytime he's developed it was when he was fighting much stronger opponents and his sharingan became 'fully' developed after fighting opponents like Haku, Orochimaru and Kyuubi Naruto.

Itachi on the other hand got it by the age of 8, just a year after entering the Academy =/
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Old 2006-11-18, 06:08   Link #84
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itachi got the sharingan at early age right like whne he was 8 years old. It means he went through of lot troulbles and more dangerous situation than sasuke to get his sharingan. i wonder wat situation could be or he faced orochimaro,,
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Old 2006-11-18, 12:08   Link #85
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What? What are you guys talking about? Your sharingan comes out when you' think you're in dangerous situation or stressful situation. How does that make the person a genius? He pretty much has nothing to do with it. When Obito was facing that guy who would kill him, he got his sharingan. Its not like he chose to fight that guy. It was an unplanned situation. Same thing for Sasuke and Haku. So getting it at an early age doesn't make you a genius. It doesn't make you a genius! Obito was only 13 or 14 when he got his sharingan. It doesn't make him stupid either! Its like calling boys and girls who hit puberty early, more mature than others. Most of those girls are still idiots and most of those guys aren't any more mature than before. Its just something thats happened to tham. When you're stressed or think you're in danger, your sharingan is most likely to come out. Thats all. It doesn't mean you're better or stronger or smarter than anyone else just because you got it early. For all we know, someone broke into sasuke's house and really gave itachi a scare. Or a cat slinks by really quickly, and bam sharingan. Or he was on a mission and nearly died at the hands of some S class ninja. Who cares? It doesn't reflect anything. What's impressive is that by such a young age and so quickly Itachi mastered the sharingan. Even Kakashi says he hasn't fully mastered everything about the regular sharingan.
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Old 2006-11-18, 12:22   Link #86
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What? What are you guys talking about? Your sharingan comes out when you' think you're in dangerous situation or stressful situation....snip!....For all we know, someone broke into sasuke's house and really gave itachi a scare. Or a cat slinks by really quickly, and bam sharingan.
Did you even read my post? You are undermining the stressful situation, as I mentioned Sasuke got it only after fighting a much stronger opponent than himself, and the fights had to last quite a while before he evolved it, same for Obito's case when he was fighting a jounin, the sharingan isn't as easy to evolve as you seem to think it is, Itachi on the other hand got it in one straight year after entering the academy.

It's impressive he got the sharingan at an early age, it's even more impressive that he mastered it before puberty =/
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Old 2006-11-18, 16:07   Link #87
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Did you even read my post? You are undermining the stressful situation, as I mentioned Sasuke got it only after fighting a much stronger opponent than himself, and the fights had to last quite a while before he evolved it, same for Obito's case when he was fighting a jounin, the sharingan isn't as easy to evolve as you seem to think it is, Itachi on the other hand got it in one straight year after entering the academy.

It's impressive he got the sharingan at an early age, it's even more impressive that he mastered it before puberty =/
I think I agree with this statement even though we don't really know enough about the development of the Sharingan to make a definite case either way. One thing we do know is the Sharingan does not respond to fear alone. You can't be startled or surprised into getting a Sharingan. It seems to respond to a combat situation where the user is highly stressed, but also extremely determined. At least that's how Sasuke and Obito got it. It may have been different for Itachi. Since he got the Sharingan at 8 years-old, he would've been a genin at the time and would've only been sent on low-danger D-rank and C-rank missions, therefore the chances of him having a life-threatening situation during this time are low. Therefore, it's possible that Itachi simply willed his Sharingan into being through training or meditation. This would indicate that getting Sharingan so early is a sign of genius.
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Old 2006-11-18, 16:10   Link #88
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? Kakashi has a fully developed sharingan, he just can't turn it off due to probably "Uchiha" blood issues, same with why he tires easily when he uses Sharingan.
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Old 2006-11-18, 16:24   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I think I agree with this statement even though we don't really know enough about the development of the Sharingan to make a definite case either way. One thing we do know is the Sharingan does not respond to fear alone. You can't be startled or surprised into getting a Sharingan. It seems to respond to a combat situation where the user is highly stressed, but also extremely determined. At least that's how Sasuke and Obito got it. It may have been different for Itachi. Since he got the Sharingan at 8 years-old, he would've been a genin at the time and would've only been sent on low-danger D-rank and C-rank missions, therefore the chances of him having a life-threatening situation during this time are low. Therefore, it's possible that Itachi simply willed his Sharingan into being through training or meditation. This would indicate that getting Sharingan so early is a sign of genius.
Still like you said, the user is probably highly stressed and highly determined to win or stay alive. However that doesn't make him a genius. It just means he was lucky (or unfortunate... depending on how you look at it) to be in such a situation. Like you said, he was probably doing very low rank missions so being in a stressful situation to where the sharingan developed would be an unplanned event. So how can you give him genius credit for it? He just had good luck (or bad luck depending on how you look at it) to where he was put in a situation that could bring it out and at such an early age.

The other alternative is that he used to scare easily. His dad says "Itachi! You broke the lamp! I'm going to tan your behind". Itachi is highly determined to not be hit and bam...sharingan. Or a cat slinks by quickly and scares him and bam...sharingan. From itachi's character today, this is only a very remote possibility, but you never know.

As for willing it through training, I don't think thats possible. Quite simply put, it'd be odd if by training enough you could develop and pull out your sharingan. If that were true, it'd be logical that a person could train enough and pull out the MS. Remember your argument is that training develops and pulls out sharingan properties. Yet we know that to gain the MS, you have to kill your friend (in essence you have to accomplish some sort of mental or spiritual change. killing your friend is only the physical representation of that change). This is very similar to gaining the sharingan if you think about it. Obito gained his sharingan when he was finally ready to step up and be a ninja and fight for his friends over himself. The same for sasuke. The parallels between how you gain the sharingan and how you gain the MS sharingan are very similar indeed. With one you commit and accomplish a deed of great honor and bravery symbolic of a positive change within you, and to gain the taboo other, you commit a deed of great evil symbol of the negative change within you. So no I doubt anyone could train enough to develop his sharingan.
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Old 2006-11-18, 16:48   Link #90
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
The other alternative is that he used to scare easily. His dad says "Itachi! You broke the lamp! I'm going to tan your behind". Itachi is highly determined to not be hit and bam...sharingan. Or a cat slinks by quickly and scares him and bam...sharingan. From itachi's character today, this is only a very remote possibility, but you never know.
No. You can't gain the Sharingan through fear. In fact, what we've seen suggests the opposite. You have to calm yourself down and gather resolve before the Sharingan manifests itself. I will give you an example. Sasuke basically crapped his pants in his first encounter with Orochimaru. He was scared for his life, but once he snapped out of it and was prepared to fight with everything he had, his Sharingan reached a new level. So you can't just jump from a cat passing by and get the Sharingan, we can be fairly confident it doesn't work that way. It has to be a combat situation.

The thought of Itachi's dad approaching with a switch and kid-Itachi's Sharingan suddenly activating did make me chuckle though

Quote:
As for willing it through training, I don't think thats possible. Quite simply put, it'd be odd if by training enough you could develop and pull out your sharingan. If that were true, it'd be logical that a person could train enough and pull out the MS. Remember your argument is that training develops and pulls out sharingan properties. Yet we know that to gain the MS, you have to kill your friend (in essence you have to accomplish some sort of mental or spiritual change. killing your friend is only the physical representation of that change). This is very similar to gaining the sharingan if you think about it. Obito gained his sharingan when he was finally ready to step up and be a ninja and fight for his friends over himself. The same for sasuke. The parallels between how you gain the sharingan and how you gain the MS sharingan are very similar indeed. With one you commit and accomplish a deed of great honor and bravery symbolic of a positive change within you, and to gain the taboo other, you commit a deed of great evil symbol of the negative change within you. So no I doubt anyone could train enough to develop his sharingan.
Well it seems likely that Kakashi did train to develop his MS. He couldn't have copied it from Itachi and he probably didn't get it from a mission either, since he's been in many life-threatening situations and the MS never manifested himself. It seems like he realized by Itachi's statement that he would need MS to match him and so he found a way to develop it himself. I agree with the belief that you have to achieve some kind of mental or spiritual change to gain MS, but what says that can't be achieved in through training or mediation? MS, at its core, requires chakra control and manipulation like any other jutsu.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-11-18 at 17:12.
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Old 2006-11-18, 17:38   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
No. You can't gain the Sharingan through fear. In fact, what we've seen suggests the opposite. You have to calm yourself down and gather resolve before the Sharingan manifests itself. I will give you an example. Sasuke basically crapped his pants in his first encounter with Orochimaru. He was scared for his life, but once he snapped out of it and was prepared to fight with everything he had, his Sharingan reached a new level. So you can't just jump from a cat passing by and get the Sharingan, we can be fairly confident it doesn't work that way. It has to be a combat situation.

The thought of Itachi's dad approaching with a switch and kid-Itachi's Sharingan suddenly activating did make me chuckle though



Well it seems likely that Kakashi did train to develop his MS. He couldn't have copied it from Itachi and he probably didn't get it from a mission either, since he's been in many life-threatening situations and the MS never manifested himself. It seems like he realized by Itachi's statement that he would need MS to match him and so he found a way to develop it himself. I agree with the belief that you have to achieve some kind of mental or spiritual change to gain MS, but what says that can't be achieved in through training or mediation? MS, at its core, requires chakra control and manipulation like any other jutsu.
Precisely, though the sasuke thing with Orochimaru I absolutely don't remember(in fact I think someone said it never happened in the manga, but was a scene inserted in the anime). So I don't know, but I agree with you there. Again, its that resolve and change within the person thing.

The spanking situation was a joke. I see Itachi using the sharingan to dodge the switches! And the dad is all like "as expected of my son!"

As for kakashi training the MS. Here's the deal, which is entirely my opinion. He didn't train to get the MS, just like you don't train to get the sharingan. He just copied it. However, you can train to use it better. For example, I'm sure that itachi's genjutu reversal with his sharingan eye is something that comes with training, not naturally*. Or you might train the sharingan copying ability to remember more seals and faster. But the actual gaining of the sharigan doesn't come with training. Perhaps the same is true of the MS. The MS is just the start. Gaining it is one thing, but the use of it (that is developing techniques like Amaterasu, tsukuyomi, and the kakashi's technique) comes with training. If the MS techniques required no training, then Kakashi would have the same technique as Itachi. Instead it seems like the technique you get out of the MS is up to you or depends on who you are. Thats why if and when Sasuke gets the MS (because I already suspect he has), I doubt he'll get amaterasu, tsukuyomi, or kakashi's technique. He'll probably have his own special MS technique which he developed through training.
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Old 2006-11-18, 20:26   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Suna no Tate
As for kakashi training the MS. Here's the deal, which is entirely my opinion. He didn't train to get the MS, just like you don't train to get the sharingan. He just copied it.
How could Kakashi copy MS from Itachi? Sharingan can't be used to copy techniques that don't use hand seals or body movements. Itachi's MS requires no hand seals to activate.
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Old 2006-11-18, 21:27   Link #93
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How could Kakashi copy MS from Itachi? Sharingan can't be used to copy techniques that don't use hand seals or body movements. Itachi's MS requires no hand seals to activate.
I know... its tricky and I don't really have an answer to that... I remember kakashi saying that even with his eye he couldn't copy other bloodline limits. It doesn't mean he can't copy other forms of the sharingan. Still its weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. After all, if he could copy it, then we should have expected sasuke to show his MS soon. In fact, I DO expect sasuke to show his MS soon. Anyway, my answer is I have no answer! But for now saying kakashi copied it is the best theory floating around. the other one was something about because kakashi feels he killed his friend obito (through some failure) he was all set for the MS and only had to see it done. But wait! Kakashi didn't feel he killed his friend, and none of that theory really makes sense.
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Old 2006-11-19, 11:11   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I don't really remember this. If you could give the reference to the chapter that'd be great. Still its odd that at on any given night all the Uchiha clan members were together in one place. After all, how many nights of the year is Kakashi in konoha? Or Gai? Or any other ninja? From my understanding, Sasuke's father wasn't much more than just a normal police officer or something. Anyway, even if you're right, we really don't know how large the Uchiha clan is either. It could be no more than 50 people. Or maybe a 100...
Chapter 220 mostly.
Like I said at this point of time almost all the members of the Uchiha clan were part of the MPF, hence inside the village.
Sasuke's father was the head of the MPF and the leader of the Uchiha clan.

It's true we don't know how large the Uchiha clan was at this time, we only know that the clan grew smaller than it used to be.
But their number is rather irrelevant anyway, slaughtering the Uchiha clan is very impressive simply because Kishimoto presented it that way.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
How could Kakashi copy MS from Itachi? Sharingan can't be used to copy techniques that don't use hand seals or body movements. Itachi's MS requires no hand seals to activate.
Since when?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Data Book
[...]
Sharingan's observation eye, is one of the finest in doujutsu. Within split seconds, this observation eye is capable of exposing to the user all systems of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu, also the movement and attacking path of the opponent, or the opponent's defences against fatal moves, evading movements from the user's attack, etc... These will enhance the overall combat abilities of the user in different situations. This petrifying ability is worthy of the title, "Heaven's Eye".

Plus the ability of copying, Sharingan, can wield its true capabilities... that is to copy and possess jutsus seen only once by the user. Regardless of whether its chakra molding or seals forming, all the under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to weild the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu. However, an Uchiha will not allow himself to be restricted by these conditions. This is because they will utilised their accumulated combat experience, and also bring out their potential when the need arises. The more critical the situation is, the more they are able to harness their potential to the maximum.
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Old 2006-11-19, 12:03   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Hunter
Plus the ability of copying, Sharingan, can wield its true capabilities... that is to copy and possess jutsus seen only once by the user. Regardless of whether its chakra molding or seals forming, all the under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant.
You and your @#$%! databook Hunter. It appears I made a mistake on that statement. I guess this does open up the possibility that Kakashi used Sharingan to copy MS. Still, the fact that Kakashi's MS is different from Itachi's to me supports the idea that he developed it on his own. Somehow, the idea of Sharingan being simply able to copy higher levels of Sharingan doesn't click, though from what we currently know about the bloodline, it seems possible. I really hope Kishi plans to go into detail at some point about how exactly Kakashi got MS.
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Old 2006-11-19, 12:56   Link #96
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Hey it's not like I wrote it ^^
Spoiler:


Oh and use spoiler tag, this isn't a [manga] thread :/
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Old 2006-11-19, 20:34   Link #97
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Hmm interesting... now explain again, why Kakashi can't copy say gaara's sand based techniques? Lets say he actually had the sand sitting around en masse. If gaara shows him desert coffin in a training session, can kakashi copy it? Can he copy temari's wind attacks (assume the training session again)? Can he copy shikamaru's shadow bind technique? Can he copy the distinct chakra molding shino uses to manipulate the bugs? Those 4 cover all the bases for the questionable types of techniques that can be copied and none is genetic in nature. Also all but one requires no seals so its simple direct chakra molding. In addition, kakashi has shown he has A rank form and A rank nature manipulation skills so it wouldn't be because of a lack of skill.... You see you said chakra molding and seals is directly copyable which bothers me. The seals is fine, but direct chakra molding is copyable?.. seems to me that the chakra molding would be out of the question seeing as sharingan can't see it all that clearly* (a byakugan user would have an easier time). So hunter please expand on the info from the data book.

*After all, a sharingan user can't even tell the difference between a water clone and a real person most of the time since they often attack them by mistake. Whereas a byakugan user would never make that mistake.
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Old 2006-11-19, 22:27   Link #98
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I don't know if Hunter will be around to answer this, but let me give it a try:

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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Hmm interesting... now explain again, why Kakashi can't copy say gaara's sand based techniques? Lets say he actually had the sand sitting around en masse. If gaara shows him desert coffin in a training session, can kakashi copy it?
Who said he can't copy it, if the sand Jutsu are not direactly tied to Shukaku, then yes he can copy them.

Quote:
Can he copy temari's wind attacks (assume the training session again)?
If he has the Fan, yes he can.

Quote:
Can he copy shikamaru's shadow bind technique?
Yes.
Quote:
Can he copy the distinct chakra molding shino uses to manipulate the bugs?
He does not have the bugs, so he can't copy it.


Quote:
Also all but one requires no seals so its simple direct chakra molding. In addition, kakashi has shown he has A rank form and A rank nature manipulation skills so it wouldn't be because of a lack of skill.... You see you said chakra molding and seals is directly copyable which bothers me. The seals is fine, but direct chakra molding is copyable?.. seems to me that the chakra molding would be out of the question seeing as sharingan can't see it all that clearly* (a byakugan user would have an easier time). So hunter please expand on the info from the data book.
.Who said that Sharingan Can't see Chakra molding clearly?, let me remind you what was said in the Manga not Databook. Sharingan has the ability to understand All Jutsus, So, The Sharingan will se any Chakra molding Happening and understand what is going on inside the person body.

Quote:
*After all, a sharingan user can't even tell the difference between a water clone and a real person most of the time since they often attack them by mistake. Whereas a byakugan user would never make that mistake.
It does not matter if it can tell or not if its a Bushin, what the Sharingan needs to see is the original that will have the Chakra activity inside his body.
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Old 2006-11-19, 23:50   Link #99
Suna no tate
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Hmm... still I refer to chap 316 in the manga. kakashi talked about the real meaning of the kekkai genkai. In essense its special genetics that allow you to manipulate chakra in a special way (exceptional combination of elements). The same can be applied to clan based techniques. Quite simply, clan techniques don't require genes to be successful, but their techniqes are unique enough to where you probably need some sort of special guidance from a clan member to master it. I just don't see kakashi replicating shika's handseal and pulled off a shadow bind. But who knows

The thing with the bunshin is that if the sharingan could see chakra molding really well, they would never mistake a water clone for a person. Kakashi himself said that water clones have about 10th the power of the original. This at least means that there is some sort difference in the chakra make up of a bunshin and a real person. I'm sure a byakugan user could see through that and would never be fooled, but if a sharingan user can't see that basic sort of info, it suggests to me they can't see chakra flow all that well, or all that finely. I'm saying that if you can't look at a water clone and see the unusual chakra and see that its a water clone, its hard to see him seeing the fine mixing of elements and being able to copy it. The sharingan's eyes just isn't that good. Again in 316 kakashi did refer to the difficulty in copying clan based techniques. So I don't know...
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Old 2006-11-20, 00:21   Link #100
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
[spoiler]Hmm... still I refer to chap 316 in the manga. kakashi talked about the real meaning of the kekkai genkai. In essense its special genetics that allow you to manipulate chakra in a special way (exceptional combination of elements). The same can be applied to clan based techniques. Quite simply, clan techniques don't require genes to be successful, but their techniqes are unique enough to where you probably need some sort of special guidance from a clan member to master it. I just don't see kakashi replicating shika's handseal and pulled off a shadow bind. But who knows [spoiler]
Spoiler:


And then, Guidelines are not needed when you have the Sharingan, even if it is a Jutsu that is pass down exclusively from a clan, there is nothing that make them something that cant be replicated by someone that is not a Nara.

Quote:
he thing with the bunshin is that if the sharingan could see chakra molding really well, they would never mistake a water clone for a person.
The fact that Sharingan can't tell a MItzu Bushin from an original is not tied with the Chakra flow or Chakra molding, rather that Bushin are created to have a Similarity to the original, Maybe a Bushin (in this case specifically Mitzu Bushin) has a regular Chakra flow, and thus Sharingan cant tell the difference.

We have seen other Bushin which the Shairngan can tell perfectly that they are Bushin,in this case Mist based Bushin.

Quote:
Kakashi himself said that water clones have about 10th the power of the original. This at least means that there is some sort difference in the chakra make up of a bunshin and a real person.
No, that only means that the Bushin has a portion of the caster real strength, however, this does not refers to Chaklra molding and Chakra activity.

Quote:
I'm sure a byakugan user could see through that and would never be fooled, but if a sharingan user can't see that basic sort of info, it suggests to me they can't see chakra flow all that well, or all that finely. I'm saying that if you can't look at a water clone and see the unusual chakra and see that its a water clone, its hard to see him seeing the fine mixing of elements and being able to copy it. The sharingan's eyes just isn't that good.
Spoiler:
.
Spoiler:


Either way..Im not that good to explain this sort of things...Hunter..its your turn..I should had not butt in here......
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-20 at 09:59.
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