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Old 2006-12-12, 03:06   Link #21
gummybear
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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This will be offensive to some people. If you choose to open it and read it, then don't flame about it cause I already warned you about it.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-12-12, 05:22   Link #22
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
This will be offensive to some people. If you choose to open it and read it, then don't flame about it cause I already warned you about it.

Spoiler:
I do not dispute your claim of Koreans being guilty of being unoriginal and copying the works of others. My point is that in the field of manwha, not anime, Koreans have shown much originalities that have had some imfluence in Japanese manga. Korean Animation still has long way to go and the biggest problem is the general Korean attitude towards anime that prevents making any large scale investments.

Korean movies are mostly 2nd rate stuff. There are some works that deserves much attention, but doesn't. A good movie I recommend is Memories of Murder ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0353969/ ) which is based on real historical event in 1986.

As far as Korean television, I have never paid much attention to them and will not defend against charge of Korean shows copying things from Japan or other countries. I do want to ask you how many Korean Dramas you have seen, for there are many noticeable difference between Korean Dramas and dramas of other countries. Although I consider most of the Korean dramas as waste of time, I must insist that most of these dramas are not copies; In fact, many of them are based on Korean history, folklores, or Korean manwha.

Here are my sets of questions for you.

1. Please tell me some of Korean dramas ( not shows ) you have seen. Since you didn't mention the drama, would you concede that these, however bad they might be, are not copies of something from Japan or Hong Kong?

2. You have taken hard to defend position of accusing everything instead of most of the things. Will you be willing to agree to my rebuttal that 10 ~ 20% of things Korean is not something Koreans stole from others? Notice that I didn't even say quarter.

3. If you worry about copyright infringements and intellectual property right violations, I would love to see what some Japanese company men would say about China. May I point out that 30 years ago, Japan was accused of the same thing, except in much bigger scale? A good example is how SONY takes credit for 'inventing' Walkman when it was someone in Europe who made it first. His error was showing his product too early in an international trade fair. Who do you think made bigger transgression, some small Korean entertainment producers or the big major corporations in Japan?

4. I see companies showing off many latest innovations which, in end, is nothing more tha small change in fragrance or the color of the products. Yes, Korean companies are notorious for that but I doubt other companies, throughout the world, is much better. Why is it that most companies in USA doesn't sell much of cheap and practical items that other countries have been using for decades? How many of innovations you see advertised by non-Korean companies be of real importance to people's daily life as well as being something that changes how people approaches the task?

5. Is any culture really isolated from other cultures? How can two adjacent countries like Korea and Japan not influence each other? Most people know about how often Koreans copy things from Japan. The problem is few, even among Koreans, know how much effect today's Korean culture has on today's Japanese culture. May I point out that expansion of Japanese anime industry into an international phenomenon coincide with the re-opening of Korean TV markets to Japanese Anime? Korea still is #2 Anime market in the world after Japan and the Japanese anime producers are well aware of this.

Notice how often Korea is mentioned in report from Japan Economic Monthly, apparently by Japanese government.

http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/tre...jem0506-2e.pdf
http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/tre...4_07_anime.pdf
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Old 2006-12-12, 08:34   Link #23
sukreih
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
This will be offensive to some people. If you choose to open it and read it, then don't flame about it cause I already warned you about it.

Spoiler:
I know what you mean.Reminds of me of my high school memories (and I was too sweet to say FU)
Pesonally,defining originality of such and such is an endless chain.Nothing in the world is original; you know the saying: 'everything's from China (or I add 'from Nikola Tesla')'
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Old 2006-12-12, 08:44   Link #24
wontaek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukreih View Post
I know what you mean.Reminds of me of my high school memories (and I was too sweet to say FU)
Pesonally,defining originality of such and such is an endless chain.Nothing in the world is original; you know the saying: 'everything's from China (or I add 'from Nikola Tesla')'
Still, I get somewhat ticked off when English media says Japanese proverb or Japanese teachings when it really is Chinese proverb or Chinese philosophy. ESPN does this a lot.
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Old 2006-12-12, 10:38   Link #25
gummybear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
I do not dispute your claim of Koreans being guilty of being unoriginal and copying the works of others. My point is that in the field of manwha, not anime, Koreans have shown much originalities that have had some imfluence in Japanese manga. Korean Animation still has long way to go and the biggest problem is the general Korean attitude towards anime that prevents making any large scale investments.

Korean movies are mostly 2nd rate stuff. There are some works that deserves much attention, but doesn't. A good movie I recommend is Memories of Murder ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0353969/ ) which is based on real historical event in 1986.

As far as Korean television, I have never paid much attention to them and will not defend against charge of Korean shows copying things from Japan or other countries. I do want to ask you how many Korean Dramas you have seen, for there are many noticeable difference between Korean Dramas and dramas of other countries. Although I consider most of the Korean dramas as waste of time, I must insist that most of these dramas are not copies; In fact, many of them are based on Korean history, folklores, or Korean manwha.

Here are my sets of questions for you.

1. Please tell me some of Korean dramas ( not shows ) you have seen. Since you didn't mention the drama, would you concede that these, however bad they might be, are not copies of something from Japan or Hong Kong?

2. You have taken hard to defend position of accusing everything instead of most of the things. Will you be willing to agree to my rebuttal that 10 ~ 20% of things Korean is not something Koreans stole from others? Notice that I didn't even say quarter.

3. If you worry about copyright infringements and intellectual property right violations, I would love to see what some Japanese company men would say about China. May I point out that 30 years ago, Japan was accused of the same thing, except in much bigger scale? A good example is how SONY takes credit for 'inventing' Walkman when it was someone in Europe who made it first. His error was showing his product too early in an international trade fair. Who do you think made bigger transgression, some small Korean entertainment producers or the big major corporations in Japan?

4. I see companies showing off many latest innovations which, in end, is nothing more tha small change in fragrance or the color of the products. Yes, Korean companies are notorious for that but I doubt other companies, throughout the world, is much better. Why is it that most companies in USA doesn't sell much of cheap and practical items that other countries have been using for decades? How many of innovations you see advertised by non-Korean companies be of real importance to people's daily life as well as being something that changes how people approaches the task?

5. Is any culture really isolated from other cultures? How can two adjacent countries like Korea and Japan not influence each other? Most people know about how often Koreans copy things from Japan. The problem is few, even among Koreans, know how much effect today's Korean culture has on today's Japanese culture. May I point out that expansion of Japanese anime industry into an international phenomenon coincide with the re-opening of Korean TV markets to Japanese Anime? Korea still is #2 Anime market in the world after Japan and the Japanese anime producers are well aware of this.

Notice how often Korea is mentioned in report from Japan Economic Monthly, apparently by Japanese government.

http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/tre...jem0506-2e.pdf
http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/market/tre...4_07_anime.pdf

1+2)
I watched way too many of the drama during my bored times, since my parents are into them (I have no clue why but they find them “refreshing” ever since 2000). If you want to know the list of drama I seen will be difficult because they DL, buy and watch the satellite Chinese dubs on daily bases, and not to mention the titles are in Chinese. I don’t have the time to search and print a list for you. But as far as I am concern, majority of the Korean dramas I had seen do seems like dramas that I seen before; the storyline and the context of twist and turns, etc. There are some, I guess is very good like you said, but then they were mostly a clever twist to “what if it end like this instead of that”. Then again I can see why they can’t come up with too much materials due to their laws and teachings on young people which then lead to the killing of their creativities. I remember how my Korean groupies used to tell us horror stories of their school life in Korea, where “fun” shuts down around one or two months before their exam season. I know for a fact that Korean government demand the online game industry to stop and even pull the plug during exams, that’s why you see many Korean MMO like RO virtually stop making new contents or do anything cool 2 months before the exam seasons. I remember hearing some of the brutal childhood of my Korean friends, how they get punish if they show to their parents, things like a pretty craft that they made; where then they get beaten because the parents view that was a waste of time and resource. I guess they just feel that creativity is a sign of foul play and meant the person won’t take whatever he/she is doing seriously. Which I think why so much of what they do have so little originality to them, because 1) they were raised that way, 2) their laws just really kills the entertainment for any one who are not “full adults”, so there is very little reasons on why they need to come up with things for themselves.

3)
I really won’t blame you for not knowing my history of bashing on the issue of Chinese knock-offs, piracy, etc. Heck, I even use the crime report hot line to report media pirates in the Chinese malls. One will say that is not very Chinese of me since I am not looking out for my own people (I am Chinese too), but seriously, I believe they are evil and must be stop.

4)
I won’t get into too much in this one because I have to go to work soon. If you must compare, try looking up some of the LG or Samsung cell phone ads, you will be amazed on their use of the word “new innovation” to list things that other companies would just list as features.

5)
Did you read those pdf files? Or are you just taking them out of context? I am pretty sure “terrorist” was mention a lot in the US reports, yet it doesn’t mean terrorist is aiding the US economy or the culture….. or do they…..?

Quote:
Still, I get somewhat ticked off when English media says Japanese proverb or Japanese teachings when it really is Chinese proverb or Chinese philosophy. ESPN does this a lot.
ya, it pissed me off a lot as well when people assume ever Asian proverb is from Japan. I remember how one of my high school English teacher always tell people that it's Japanese whenever she sees Chinese or Korean. I always yell out "ARE YOU MAD WOMAN!?!"
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Old 2006-12-12, 16:31   Link #26
wontaek
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The reason for the pdf files were because it demonstrates 'concerns' Japan has with regards to Korean Animation industry, it was the most objective article I could find that might support my claim of Korea being the biggest Anime Market outside of Japan, and that Korea has started making their own animation works.

Korean Education system has gotten much worse in many ways compared to the 1980s. It really needs to make changes to allow students to think more independently, develope their unique aptitudes, expose them more to Korean Cultural heritage, and introduce new stuffs and levels to the existing subjects as many subjects are essentially memorizing some names and dates without informations about how those names and dates might be connected.

I believe it is up to us to teach people that Japan is only a small island in Asia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Japan occupies less than 1% of Asian land and has less than 4% of its population. You cannot use such small isolated sample to describe the whole continent.
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Old 2006-12-12, 19:17   Link #27
Tenki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wontaek View Post
For informations regarding Korean Manwha, the following is a good place to start for those who can't read Korean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhwa
http://www.booksfromkorea.org/books_...bunya=1&no=300
http://www.sicaf.or.kr/2007/2006_eng/2006_main/main.php
http://www.difeca.com/
http://ani.seoul.kr/
http://www.bicof.com/eng-index.php

If you can read French, the following link is much better

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhwa

For those who can read Korean, try these.

http://comic.dreamwiz.com/search.jsp?authorCd=2377
http://jinlove.com/
http://fantaaa.com/woo/main.htm
http://comic.daum.net/search/writerD...AA&writerno=28

Here is the list of manwha that has translation in English

http://www.animeondvd.com/specials/m...hp?view=manhwa

The one I recommend the most among them is Red Moon by Hwang, Mi Na.
Again thanks for the imformation I will check them later.

Well, actually what gummybear said sounds like my Japanese friend but I'd better listen to both sides of story.
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Old 2006-12-26, 17:03   Link #28
Zu Ra
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Isnt most of the Anime animated by Korean artists . If you check the end credits you will always find Koreans . As the standard of living is higher in Japan its outsourced to Korea ... While anime has global popularity Korean Manga is not known well outside Korea . And in animation Koreans stand on the same ground as their Japanese counterparts
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Old 2007-04-14, 13:03   Link #29
tkdtiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papaya View Post
ROFL. That clip was indeed hilarious.

Yes, a lot of American and Japanese cartoons "outsource" their actual animation to Korean studios. I've noticed this a lot when watching the credits.
I saw a CNN report that said that South Korea's animation and visual graphics were number 1 now.
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Old 2007-04-14, 13:30   Link #30
tkdtiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
1+2)
I watched way too many of the drama during my bored times, since my parents are into them (I have no clue why but they find them “refreshing” ever since 2000). If you want to know the list of drama I seen will be difficult because they DL, buy and watch the satellite Chinese dubs on daily bases, and not to mention the titles are in Chinese. I don’t have the time to search and print a list for you. But as far as I am concern, majority of the Korean dramas I had seen do seems like dramas that I seen before; the storyline and the context of twist and turns, etc. There are some, I guess is very good like you said, but then they were mostly a clever twist to “what if it end like this instead of that”. Then again I can see why they can’t come up with too much materials due to their laws and teachings on young people which then lead to the killing of their creativities. I remember how my Korean groupies used to tell us horror stories of their school life in Korea, where “fun” shuts down around one or two months before their exam season. I know for a fact that Korean government demand the online game industry to stop and even pull the plug during exams, that’s why you see many Korean MMO like RO virtually stop making new contents or do anything cool 2 months before the exam seasons. I remember hearing some of the brutal childhood of my Korean friends, how they get punish if they show to their parents, things like a pretty craft that they made; where then they get beaten because the parents view that was a waste of time and resource. I guess they just feel that creativity is a sign of foul play and meant the person won’t take whatever he/she is doing seriously. Which I think why so much of what they do have so little originality to them, because 1) they were raised that way, 2) their laws just really kills the entertainment for any one who are not “full adults”, so there is very little reasons on why they need to come up with things for themselves.

3)
I really won’t blame you for not knowing my history of bashing on the issue of Chinese knock-offs, piracy, etc. Heck, I even use the crime report hot line to report media pirates in the Chinese malls. One will say that is not very Chinese of me since I am not looking out for my own people (I am Chinese too), but seriously, I believe they are evil and must be stop.

4)
I won’t get into too much in this one because I have to go to work soon. If you must compare, try looking up some of the LG or Samsung cell phone ads, you will be amazed on their use of the word “new innovation” to list things that other companies would just list as features.

5)
Did you read those pdf files? Or are you just taking them out of context? I am pretty sure “terrorist” was mention a lot in the US reports, yet it doesn’t mean terrorist is aiding the US economy or the culture….. or do they…..?



ya, it pissed me off a lot as well when people assume ever Asian proverb is from Japan. I remember how one of my high school English teacher always tell people that it's Japanese whenever she sees Chinese or Korean. I always yell out "ARE YOU MAD WOMAN!?!"
No offense most dramas in Japan and China look alot like American and European Drams...the truth is there is nothing new or innovating about Japanese production either. I haven't seen anything new in most Chinese makets either.

New innovation doesn't really refer to something that hasn't been used by other companies. It could mean they are using something that has recently come into the market or that's it's new for their product line. It's not just Koreans doing this I've seen terms even in Japanese and Chinese markets that say this is new and innovating, but it's been out for a year. I've even seen American advertisements do the same.

Television is no different. I haven't seen anything really new in any market. Everyone copies from each other. In a globalized world this is to be expected. People begin to fit into a mold and it becomes harder for originality to occur.

Now South Korea is ranked 12th or 13th. GDP is around $25,000.
Their PPP is $1.8 trillion (11th) and the Korean Won is steadily getting closer to the U.S. Dollar. The IMF considered about 5 countries in Asia as being developed, which includes S.Korea, Japan, and part of China (Hong Kong)
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Old 2007-04-14, 15:06   Link #31
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Crap if only I can find a video of that missile propaganda film that North Korea put out that was on the Daily Show. It was made in 2006, but Jon Stewart calls them out on it and says "We're in the 21st century and this is the best Korea can do. I thought American animation was going downhill, but this looks like something out of...Speed Racer or something. Is that a missile or a pen?"

Oh well have this one instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGGSJA3-OLQ . I have no clue where this came from, but its at least somewhat amusing.

Also the obligatory Space Gundam V post and again and then a fake Boss Borot to the rescue It would be funny if it werent' so offensively bad.

And who can forget Defenders of Space and Protectors of Universe

Oh and last but not least Super Taekwon V also known as Yoshiyuki Tomino/Nagahama anime mashup

I see Gundam, I see Xabungle, Ideon, and a little bit of Daimos and Voltes V. Oh and Mazinger of course, gotta do Mazinger. There's also a bit of UFO Robo Diaplon as well.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2007-04-14 at 15:44.
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Old 2007-04-15, 12:20   Link #32
tkdtiger
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Super Taekwon V was from the eighties specifically 1982 so the animation was actually not too bad when I saw it. It's amazing how far they've come in 20 years...Super Taekwon V is based on Robot Taekwon V, which was from the 60's...Anyways Look at Go Bot and Transformers...shoot even power rangers is a knock off of voltron, which brings me to the point that everyone copies everyone.

As mentioned I saw a CNN broadcast about 2 years ago that said that S.Korea is now ranked number 1 for animation and CG animation. I think this has to do with them working with U.S. and Japanese companies so I don't think it's a bad thing. Only problem is as globalization becomes more prevelant one will see less original ideas.

Jon Stewart was of course talking about North Korea. That video was funny though : P
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Old 2007-04-15, 12:34   Link #33
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The view in Korea is slowly changing to acceptance of using Japanese style drawing, which technically is based on older american style of drawing as well as mixing it with asian style of drawing...you can find similarities to some iconic charactes that almost has a somewhat manga look too it. Betty Boop and even the old micky mouse had similar lines drawing that later some manga artists would adopt...Look at the old Annie comic strips...oval eyes with no pupils...Things like this is bound to happen, because of a globalizing world...Many Korean artists freely admit that they style their art off of Japanese art so it's not accurate to say that they aren't willing to. King of Hell writer openly stated that it's based on manga style drawing and that there is no huge diggerence just on how you read it and there are a few cultural differences in the story, but I found them to be subtle...
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Old 2007-04-15, 13:48   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdtiger View Post
Super Taekwon V was from the eighties specifically 1982 so the animation was actually not too bad when I saw it. It's amazing how far they've come in 20 years...Super Taekwon V is based on Robot Taekwon V, which was from the 60's...Anyways Look at Go Bot and Transformers...shoot even power rangers is a knock off of voltron, which brings me to the point that everyone copies everyone.

As mentioned I saw a CNN broadcast about 2 years ago that said that S.Korea is now ranked number 1 for animation and CG animation. I think this has to do with them working with U.S. and Japanese companies so I don't think it's a bad thing. Only problem is as globalization becomes more prevelant one will see less original ideas.

Jon Stewart was of course talking about North Korea. That video was funny though : P
Robot Taekwon V is from 1976, and his creator says that is bassed on mazinger Z because his popularity in korea in that time.
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Old 2007-04-15, 16:57   Link #35
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Originally Posted by darkscythe View Post
Robot Taekwon V is from 1976, and his creator says that is bassed on mazinger Z because his popularity in korea in that time.
was it...IMBD has it listed as 1966 that's cool I never seen Robot Taekwon V, but I said I think Super Taekwon V is based on Robot Taekwon V...not sure they may be the same franchise...Since Robot Taekwon V was before Super Taekwon V I'm not sure where Robot Taekwon V was based on until you're post...I never heard of Mazinger Z is it any good?
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Old 2007-04-15, 21:27   Link #36
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Originally Posted by tkdtiger View Post
was it...IMBD has it listed as 1966 that's cool I never seen Robot Taekwon V, but I said I think Super Taekwon V is based on Robot Taekwon V...not sure they may be the same franchise...Since Robot Taekwon V was before Super Taekwon V I'm not sure where Robot Taekwon V was based on until you're post...I never heard of Mazinger Z is it any good?
Much better than that stuff on youtube. Gigantor, Reideen, Mazinger Z, Getta Robot, Daimos, Combattler V, Voltes V, are older super robot anime and better animated. They were the granddaddy of all mech shows. I've seen stills of the mech in space gundam v as a macross fan, but I never realised how bad that show looked. I don't have much hope either for the plot
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Old 2007-04-16, 09:20   Link #37
wontaek
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Robot Taekwon V is from 1976. I saw it when it first appeared in the theater ( yes. I am that old ).

The producers themselves admitted that the designs and many of the ideas were from Mazinger Z series, which was very popular. However, its story plots were unrelated to any Japanese animated work and Taekwon V was one of first super robots to have the controller situated in more protected spot like the stomach of the robot. Before Taekwon V, most Japanese anime super robots had the control seat in the head ( the brain ). I do have to say that plots were very cheezy and crappy, even though it was different.

Shortly after Taekwon V, another series came out called 'Golden Wings'. Despite improvements in story plots and better dialogues, the concept of the main giant robot primarily devoted to construction duties and just being occasional muscle man for main super hero did not gather as much popularity and it has mostly faded out of memory.

Among all super robots to appear on manhwa or Korean animated works, I like Go, Yusung's 'Robot King' the best. This manhwa series featured many revolutionary concepts, including mass produced giant robots used in battle to fight along side tanks, fighter planes, and infantry, on both sides.

Due to economic and cultural reality, Korean works excel only on parts that doesn't rquire money. This is why, while many insist that the best Korean manhwa are as good as, if not better, best of Japanese manga, everyone believes it still is unlikely for Korea to produce a lengthy animated work of high quality. A manhwa series, being child of primarily one creator, can be free from various prejudices. Animated film making, requiring vast capital and human resource, is still trapped by the prejudice that 'animated works are for the kids, and they are not worthy for cultured adults.' that is prevalent among Korean political leaders and money movers who bash Japan at all opportunity in the public, yet secretly orders their subordinates to dilligently copy anything Japanese behind closed curtains.
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Last edited by wontaek; 2007-04-16 at 17:14.
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Old 2007-04-16, 09:46   Link #38
Potatochobit
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you guys are silly

first of all gummybear almost EVERY bit of technology in japan was originally stolen or licensed from abroad. Japan has always excelled at improving or changing someone elses' technology.

you think japan invented the RCA cable? its called 'RCA' 'CABLE' does that give you a clue? the ONLY reason japan is so technologically advanced now is because of the US reconstruction effort after World War II. perhaps you should take some history classes.

as for korean animation. yes its cheap and crude right now. but you can see the same thing in america. its cheaper to hire someone in mexico to build your ford ranger pick up truck regardless if the quality is lower and less ethical. they just assemble the parts built in mexico and then put a sticker on it.

The sad thing though, is even with people out sourcing their anime production to cheaper labor, the general public is not seeing those price reductions. its just extra money in the companies pocket. and thats sad.
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Old 2007-04-16, 10:44   Link #39
hobbes_fan
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While I agree that is true, most of what was borrowed was adapted to suit their social and cultural needs. But that doesn't really bother me. My issue is mainly looking at Space Gundam V (gundam in title) Macross VF1s Valkyrie as the main item of interest. There was no adaptation, just plagiarism and it was blatant. I mean seriously you've got to be kidding me with this.

I understand that was the beginning of that industry in Korea and am hopeful that it has changed. Copyright and the like were still ambiguous at that time so it can't be helped
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