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Old 2006-11-20, 14:32   Link #1
Sonhex
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Code Geass presents us with a diverse set of characters with opposing moral standpoints. Lelouch, in his determination to destroy the Empire of Britannia, is willing to use any means necessary at his disposal to do so. On the otherhand Suzaku, Lelouch's polar opposite, believes only by changing the Empire from within can it be cured of its current cruel ways. While the former is presented as morally grey, the latter is presented as whiter than white. However the show leaves us, the audience, to decide on whether the Lelouch's actions are right or wrong.

Consider also the politics of Britannia and its Emperor, who actively encourages inequality and rivalry - even amongst his own children. The Emperor seeks to propel Britannia to even greater heights through military might. How has the politics of Britannia, and those who oppose it, influenced the actions and decisions of the characters?

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Last edited by xris; 2006-11-20 at 15:02.
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Old 2006-11-20, 17:18   Link #2
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Ill have to side with Lelouch on this. I think people have the right to fight against what they believe is wrong especially if a huge foreign government jsut came in and told you all what to believe. Now we dont know all of why Lelouch is going up againist Britannia (I forgot what he's consider...it he a Britannian? I know Suzaku is consider a Honored Britannian but he's also an Eleveth...Sorry not trying to get off track, I just want to make sure Im backing what I say with correct information) We know it involves the death of his mother and Im sure alot about Britannia's gobal dominance. Lelouch's tactic's might be off, dressing up as Zero but he's fighting a power he believe should be taken down.

Not saying Suzaku's method is wrong but its hard for one person to change an entire military state based on the fact that he can make it better. Lelouch is working the angle of better man wins (I think) and wants to dispose of Britannia at all costs. I find Suzuka's way just harder to accomplish then Lelouch way.

So may main state of this thread is I think Lelouch's actions are justified at this point. Since I also dont agree with the Emperor's speech on humans are not equal, I feel that Lulu should fight him with what ever means necessary at the this point.

I hope what I said made sense to everyone and thanks for making this thread
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Old 2006-11-20, 17:30   Link #3
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Remember Lelouch's answer to how to stop the fighting. "It's simple. The fighting stops when someone wins." Okay, it should be obvious that this is completely and utterly wrong. This is exactly what Britannia has been doing, and guess what? They're busy fighting terrorists constantly. Conquering is clearly not the solution, and Lelouch's goal seems to be to fight Britannia on their own terms (war) and win, thereby conquering them. Even if he manages to do this, he's no different from them, the cycle continues. The conquered Britannians rebel against Lelouch-land or whatever. The only way his method could really stop the fighting is complete genocide, which I'm sure no one endorses. Even then civil war is still a possibilty.

Suzaku's answer (change from within) would actually work, although it'd be much harder to pull off. Obtain a position of power and gradually grant rights and autonomy (and proper names...) to the already conquered areas. Sure, the grudges will die slowly, but its certainly better than reigniting war in a recently wartorn country. And grudges can die over time in times of prosperity, as history has shown. Prosperity for all may be an impossible goal though.

Edit: Come to think of it, I'm arguing for the ends on Suzaku's behalf. Both Lelouch's ends and means are questionable. Hmm...

Last edited by Clarste; 2006-11-20 at 17:46.
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Old 2006-11-20, 18:01   Link #4
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Originally Posted by White Manju Bun View Post
Not saying Suzaku's method is wrong but its hard for one person to change an entire military state based on the fact that he can make it better. Lelouch is working the angle of better man wins (I think) and wants to dispose of Britannia at all costs.
However considering the super power that is Britannia for Lelouch to end Britannia's drive for apparent world conquest and dominance is going to cost lives especially since behind the emperor are the nobility, the military and everyone else who benefits and strives for Britannia and her goal. To destroy Britannia, you probably will have to carry out a purge of those people.

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I find Suzuka's way just harder to accomplish then Lelouch way.
True, however Suzaku's method will probably be less of a bloodbath.
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Old 2006-11-20, 19:04   Link #5
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However considering the super power that is Britannia for Lelouch to end Britannia's drive for apparent world conquest and dominance is going to cost lives especially since behind the emperor are the nobility, the military and everyone else who benefits and strives for Britannia and her goal. To destroy Britannia, you probably will have to carry out a purge of those people.

True, however Suzaku's method will probably be less of a bloodbath.

Good point on both parts. Lelouch's way definitely will cause bloodshed but really its not different then what Britannia is doing now the only point being is Britannia is doing it with out any respect to the countries is taking over.

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Originally Posted by Bahamut89
Remember Lelouch's answer to how to stop the fighting. "It's simple. The fighting stops when someone wins." Okay, it should be obvious that this is completely and utterly wrong. This is exactly what Britannia has been doing, and guess what? They're busy fighting terrorists constantly. Conquering is clearly not the solution, and Lelouch's goal seems to be to fight Britannia on their own terms (war) and win, thereby conquering them. Even if he manages to do this, he's no different from them, the cycle continues. The conquered Britannians rebel against Lelouch-land or whatever. The only way his method could really stop the fighting is complete genocide, which I'm sure no one endorses. Even then civil war is still a possibilty.
Well hereby its the main problem with either way you view the morality in this anime. War is hell and even if Lelouch does win, there will always be someone wanting to take him down. Unless he and the members of the rebellion come up with a better government then Britannia. So there's a morality question right there... can Lelouch defeat Britannia and still have a rebellion that wont be attack again by either rebels from Britannia or another country.

I dont know how much they are going to get into how this take-off effected other countries, I know they mentioned the Chinese but I cant think that all countries really like being conquered but since this revolves around Lelouch we might not see that.
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Old 2006-11-20, 19:19   Link #6
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I think if Lelouch and Suzaku want to change Britannia for real, what will be needed is a combination of their two approaches to doing it. Brute force ala Lelouch will get things moving and get the people to realize that thing need to change, it will start the revolution, but it won't be able to really solve any problems. Any kind of permanent solution will have to be reached from within, via the Suzaku approach. Alone Suzaku wouldn't be able to initiate the change, and Lelouch wouldn't be able to reach any solution the way he is going.

Therefore with the two of them working, although seperately, but toward the same goal, there is a pretty good chance that they will be able to change the system.
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Old 2006-11-20, 19:25   Link #7
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lol i hope this isnt going to turn into the deathnote morality discussion where it just goes around in circles

oki suzaku's way..."to change from within"...erm i dont think its going to happen theres more chance of him getting killed for mutiny than him changing how britannia is ran...

lulu's way...well imo lulu is fighting on behalf of all the nations that were forcibly taken by britannia...hes fighting fire against fire seen as its the only way...its not like britannia will be persuaded to give back their empire...
yep its going to be a blood bath but nothing else can stop the tyranny of britannia...they are not going to sit down and talk...

and tbh its britannia who started it...why should the other contries listen to them? as i see it violence is the only way out of this...crush britannia!

the other reason for lulu's bid to destroy britannia is for the revenge of his mother and sister...rightly so id say seen as his mother was murdered and sister made disable...it must have hurt him soo much...
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Old 2006-11-20, 19:30   Link #8
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Originally Posted by White Manju Bun View Post
Now we dont know all of why Lelouch is going up againist Britannia (I forgot what he's consider...it he a Britannian?
Actually, we do know. Just in case you haven't seen episode 2 or weren't listening at the end of 1, he's the Emperor's son. He wants to see Britannia go down because Pyramid Head basically let his mother die and sister be crippled as part of his 'survival of the nastiest' policy. He's not so much pro-Japan as he is anti-anything connected with his father, which probably accounts in part for his ends justify the means outlook.
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Old 2006-11-20, 20:20   Link #9
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lol i hope this isnt going to turn into the deathnote morality discussion where it just goes around in circles
Amen there.

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Originally Posted by kazekiri
Actually, we do know. Just in case you haven't seen episode 2 or weren't listening at the end of 1, he's the Emperor's son. He wants to see Britannia go down because Pyramid Head basically let his mother die and sister be crippled as part of his 'survival of the nastiest' policy. He's not so much pro-Japan as he is anti-anything connected with his father, which probably accounts in part for his ends justify the means outlook.
~crawls into corner~ how in the hell did I forget that!!!! Thanks for the reminder. (Baka Manju)
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Old 2006-11-21, 01:17   Link #10
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Actually, we do know. Just in case you haven't seen episode 2 or weren't listening at the end of 1, he's the Emperor's son. He wants to see Britannia go down because Pyramid Head basically let his mother die and sister be crippled as part of his 'survival of the nastiest' policy. He's not so much pro-Japan as he is anti-anything connected with his father, which probably accounts in part for his ends justify the means outlook.
According to the previous episodes...

Lelouch and his sister are on borrowed time. It's only a matter of time before their discovered and targeted again. Thus, in order to make the world a safe place for him and his sister his objective is to take out Britannia (Since elements of the royal family tried to kill him and his mother).

Though I'm curious as to why the Emperor exiled Lelouch to Japan specifically...but in the end, assuming Lelouch sticks to his guns, he'll end up doing exactly what his father wants to do.

Suzuka on the other hand is interesting but since he is in good relations with the 3rd Imperial princess his goals are not that unattainable. Plus, I take it he's already made an impression on Sir Jeremiah and Villete (They will most definetly not forget that he placed himself in danger to save them). Sometimes action speaks louder than words.

So I would say both are justified in their methods, I would go with Lelouch mainly because I'm sadistic that way, but the way Lelouch is going with this is exactly what the emperor wants him to do. It's literally screaming, "Strike me down and take my place as rightful ruler of the empire" Then again, becoming the 99th emperor would still attain the same thing.
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Old 2006-11-21, 05:08   Link #11
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Ill have to side with Lelouch on this. I think people have the right to fight against what they believe is wrong especially if a huge foreign government jsut came in and told you all what to believe. Now we dont know all of why Lelouch is going up againist Britannia (I forgot what he's consider...it he a Britannian? I know Suzaku is consider a Honored Britannian but he's also an Eleveth...Sorry not trying to get off track, I just want to make sure Im backing what I say with correct information) We know it involves the death of his mother and Im sure alot about Britannia's gobal dominance. Lelouch's tactic's might be off, dressing up as Zero but he's fighting a power he believe should be taken down.

Not saying Suzaku's method is wrong but its hard for one person to change an entire military state based on the fact that he can make it better. Lelouch is working the angle of better man wins (I think) and wants to dispose of Britannia at all costs. I find Suzuka's way just harder to accomplish then Lelouch way.

So may main state of this thread is I think Lelouch's actions are justified at this point. Since I also dont agree with the Emperor's speech on humans are not equal, I feel that Lulu should fight him with what ever means necessary at the this point.

I hope what I said made sense to everyone and thanks for making this thread
Agree with this, suzaku method is not hard , its impossible. He isnt smart, he just has an ability with the Knightmares. Hes more suited to be a follower of someone. Whereas lelouch is smart, could order suzaku to kill himself with geass, which he wont. Obviously other countries are unhappy with Britainnia, if lelouch rebels, other conquered AREAS are sure to support lelouch in defeating Britain. Lelouch fighting with whatever means is of course the right way, hes a very suitable choice to be a king.
If u agree that suzaku method involves less of a bloodbath, lol look what happened at shinjuku. Try rewatching all over again. The fighting stops when someone wins is right, why hasnt it stopped? because britainnia hasnt won over the rebels, understand?
lana3007 is probably right in saying suzaku and lelouch should work tgt, or more effectively,suzaku working FOR lelouch.
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Old 2006-11-21, 06:47   Link #12
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Agree with this, suzaku method is not hard , its impossible. He isnt smart, he just has an ability with the Knightmares. Hes more suited to be a follower of someone. Whereas lelouch is smart, could order suzaku to kill himself with geass, which he wont. Obviously other countries are unhappy with Britainnia, if lelouch rebels, other conquered AREAS are sure to support lelouch in defeating Britain. Lelouch fighting with whatever means is of course the right way, hes a very suitable choice to be a king.
If u agree that suzaku method involves less of a bloodbath, lol look what happened at shinjuku. Try rewatching all over again. The fighting stops when someone wins is right, why hasnt it stopped? because britainnia hasnt won over the rebels, understand?
lana3007 is probably right in saying suzaku and lelouch should work tgt, or more effectively,suzaku working FOR lelouch.
The question was about morality, not ability. Theoretically, Suzaku could simply convince Lelouch to help him. You can't argue that Suzaku's wrong simply because he's not as smart as Lelouch.
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Old 2006-11-21, 07:54   Link #13
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The question was about morality, not ability. Theoretically, Suzaku could simply convince Lelouch to help him. You can't argue that Suzaku's wrong simply because he's not as smart as Lelouch.
Yea ur right, my apologies, kinda got off topic. Well as for morality, i believe in Lelouch, maybe a small amount of blood shed to prevent a larger amount... anyone would avoid that if necessary. But sadly theres no other choice unless going with suzaku idea would only end up with more innocent dying, remember how the soldiers killed the 2 grandparents and the baby? when lelouch commanded the rebels, not one of em were defeated , until lancelot came out (imba sh*t). Thus, i believe lelouch way is the right one,of course, suzaku is not wrong, only he chosen the lousier choice. Working together with lelouch can save the country better. That is moral.
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Old 2006-11-21, 08:05   Link #14
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Yea ur right, my apologies, kinda got off topic. Well as for morality, i believe in Lelouch, maybe a small amount of blood shed to prevent a larger amount... anyone would avoid that if necessary. But sadly theres no other choice unless going with suzaku idea would only end up with more innocent dying, remember how the soldiers killed the 2 grandparents and the baby? when lelouch commanded the rebels, not one of em were defeated , until lancelot came out (imba sh*t). Thus, i believe lelouch way is the right one,of course, suzaku is not wrong, only he chosen the lousier choice. Working together with lelouch can save the country better. That is moral.
My main issue with your views, is I am not sure Lelouch is actually interested in saving Japan. If given the offer of Japan obtaining independence in exchange for coexistence with Britannia, Suzaku would take the option, but Lelouch almost certainly would reject it.

Lelouch wants Britannia destroyed in order to truely feel safe for his sister. Freeing Japan is not actually on his agenda, even if the Resistance want it to happen.
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Old 2006-11-21, 08:16   Link #15
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My main issue with your views, is I am not sure Lelouch is actually interested in saving Japan. If given the offer of Japan obtaining independence in exchange for coexistence with Britannia, Suzaku would take the option, but Lelouch almost certainly would reject it.

Lelouch wants Britannia destroyed in order to truely feel safe for his sister. Freeing Japan is not actually on his agenda, even if the Resistance want it to happen.
Ur right, but fortunately (or unfortunately?) in this case, its a unavoidable case because Britainnia would not actually let japan be free. He works with the rebels because their goals are the same basically.( or uses them as a tool) If Britainnia actually wants peace (which i doubt), then of course my views would certainly change. So with an unvoidable bloodbath, its only *fire at will*
But *just IMHO* , if theres peace and nanaly or suzaku, one which he loves and what he considers his only true friend, request (or beg?) him to stop, he may. After all, they are supposed to be dead and then live happily ever after.....OR NOT! Nanali would probaly die soon, like yuzuha in Utawarerumono.... sorry, im just so evil.
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Old 2006-11-21, 08:37   Link #16
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Ur right, but fortunately (or unfortunately?) in this case, its a unavoidable case because Britainnia would not actually let japan be free. He works with the rebels because their goals are the same basically.( or uses them as a tool) If Britainnia actually wants peace (which i doubt), then of course my views would certainly change. So with an unvoidable bloodbath, its only *fire at will*
But *just IMHO* , if theres peace and nanaly or suzaku, one which he loves and what he considers his only true friend, request (or beg?) him to stop, he may. After all, they are supposed to be dead and then live happily ever after.....OR NOT! Nanali would probaly die soon, like yuzuha in Utawarerumono.... sorry, im just so evil.
Let's assume instead of a peaceful treaty, Lelouch and his militia managed to crush all their opposition, kill many leaders and even some of Lelouch's half-siblings, and essentially took over control of the entire former nation of Japan...

Then what?

Obviously, Lelouch would want to go further. He would want his men to go forth across the Atlantic and fight in the American continent, then followed by the ultimate conquest of the British Isles.

But would his soldiers be willing to continue?
After all, they might oppose Britannia, but only for liberty. Once they got liberty, why would they want to keep fighting?

The only way things could work out for Lulu, is if somehow the Emperor visit Japan himself. Otherwise, with the seats of power so far away from Japan, Lelouch's allies simply wouldn't (and couldn't) support him all the way.
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Old 2006-11-21, 08:44   Link #17
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Yeap, absolutely right, the only way to find out is to keep watching i guess.
But making a guess at the ending, *totally random* lelouch would probably lose... its a whole fking empire after all. Edit: maybe b4 even conquering the british in japan, he woulda get his ass whooped by ZegaPain newly created over in Britainnia.
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Old 2006-11-21, 11:55   Link #18
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Though I'm curious as to why the Emperor exiled Lelouch to Japan specifically...but in the end, assuming Lelouch sticks to his guns, he'll end up doing exactly what his father wants to do.
Did Clovis say that he thought Lelouch was killed during the invasion of Japan? Maybe the emperor was planning on that, which is why he exiled Lelouch to Japan, since he'd more then likely end up as a casuality. Too bad for the emporern it didnt happen.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Obviously, Lelouch would want to go further. He would want his men to go forth across the Atlantic and fight in the American continent, then followed by the ultimate conquest of the British Isles.

But would his soldiers be willing to continue?
After all, they might oppose Britannia, but only for liberty. Once they got liberty, why would they want to keep fighting?
Thats the main problem I see with the rebellion at this point. If it is successful, its got the makings to turn into the next Britannia, which was touched on in the some of the above posts. What is stopping Lelouch from creating another "Britannia" type government, but maybe if he does defeat them, he'll leave it at that and just let the other countries Britannia conquered go back to how they were.
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Old 2006-11-21, 12:02   Link #19
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i guess lelouch simply doesn't care about what will happen later.
and he is right for this point : there is no need to think too much about the consequence, while you have a huge task to do first : smashing the iron grasp of the Britannia Empire first.

According lelouch motive, we can say that lelouch just wants to seek and destroy ANY threat towards her sister. the rest, he doesn't give a damn thing.
Lelouch isn't really a conqueror, nor a revolutionnist, but a rogue prince, who seeks only revenge and protects the remains of his life : Nanaly, and his friends.


so, i agree with white manju bun, Lelouch could simply leaves the freed countries as they are.


as for the means and the ends, Suzaku's point of view is idealistic, but rather long and not really guaranteed
if he wants a peaceful change, he would need to change a huge mentality among the britannians (and this WILL be long and hard : the britannians see the elevens not as humans, but just bunch of losers. some would actually still consider them as humans as well, but do you see any agreement to free the area? they simply live on their conquests, nothing else... for now.)
he will have to deal with the purists.
and finally, how are his chance of living to begin with? staying in the very enemy lair for this kind of task is suicide.
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Old 2006-11-21, 12:17   Link #20
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I'm gonna have to go with both. Where both paths carry their interesting ramifications. I'm not exactly in the position to care about morality when it comes to Lelouch and Suzaku. Of course Suzaku's way would seem more unique and "nice" than Lelouch basically doing what the Empire proclaims to believe in but I say both are pretty much valid when you don't get hung on morality.
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