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Old 2007-05-03, 20:40   Link #961
Juvyniled
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Lelouch's value as a character lies greatly within his confusion of morals. Simply being evil does warrant the respect of viewers, and being a traditional hero doesn't reward him with favor. The problem with many viewers is their expectations of him; either for him to be a hero or a villain, or even a mix. In this case, Lelouch is a mix, but the important facet is that he is the protagonist. His actions and choices will affect the outcome of this situation, and his 'evil' and 'good' demeanor contributes to that.

Lelouch capitalizing on the situation is an indirect result of a scenario gone awry. It's not as if he wanted to, but he had to. As I said before, it was necessary for his own purposes. You may label that as selfish, but he was already bound to correct the mistake.

Bash Suzaku as you may, but he has never shown any desire to kill his own people. Technically, the rebels he fights against are his people, but that is the life of a soldier - kill or be killed. Why should the rebels spare his life? And in that same respect why should he spare theirs? He already has a methodology established, so he's going to inevitably pursue his goal. And for those that still insist on it, he is not a pacifist nor does he oppose violence.

If you want to support arguments on the basis of technicalities, go ahead. But I don't believe that nationalist rebels qualify wholly as "his people" because they do not represent an entirety of the people. Only now that the situation has surmised the way it has, have the people all unified under one common cause.
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Old 2007-05-05, 12:24   Link #962
Flame-X
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It seems that in most war or heavy politcal animes, the story always lean towards to Japan being the number 1 country. After seeing ep 23, I went WTF at the part when Zero says, "United States of Japan". It's just my theory.
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Old 2007-05-05, 18:05   Link #963
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Clamp-X View Post
It seems that in most war or heavy politcal animes, the story always lean towards to Japan being the number 1 country. After seeing ep 23, I went WTF at the part when Zero says, "United States of Japan". It's just my theory.
Pray tell, which country should the story focus on? Yours?

...sorry, but you are the last straw on the camel's back. I am just sick of people complaining about a Japanese show made by a Japanese team for Japanese audiences would somehow prefer to tell the story with Japan at the center, for some mysterious reason other than common sense.

Japan is number-1 in importance because guess what? That's where the story is told from. Other than that though, it is still a tiny piece of land sandwiched between the Chinese Federation and Britannia. Using political terms, it is like the lone Independent who holds the balance of power with the two major political parties with one needing its support to defeat the other to pass legislation; CF needed Japan because Britannia exists as a threat. This means political power, though an unreliable one.
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Old 2007-05-05, 19:30   Link #964
GarBhaD
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You forget to add that Japan always gets nuked. Whatever the story, if there's a nuke, it always explodes on Japan no matter what.
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Old 2007-05-05, 21:15   Link #965
ashlay
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Originally Posted by GarBhaD View Post
You forget to add that Japan always gets nuked. Whatever the story, if there's a nuke, it always explodes on Japan no matter what.
unless you're every gundam series ever made, in which case its either australia, space, or both.
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Old 2007-05-05, 21:28   Link #966
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
unless you're every gundam series ever made, in which case its either australia, space, or both.
Australia didn't get Nuked in Gundam though, just pulverised.

As an Australian, I can personally declare there is a lack of presentation in anime of Australia. In some cases when anime portrays the world getting engulfed by aliens, they didn't even bother to put Australia on the map.

Gunbuster mentioned Australia, but only because the entire landmass was taken off the map. The country was dug up as materials to help make the Jupiter Bomb.

RahXephon was one of the few recent stories that had Australia in it. But most of the "Major cities" that were supposedly destroyed from what I can tell from the map, were tiny settlements IRL. Sydney was blown up, yet Melbourne was spared? Not far!

Gundam Seed had Australia being the major Earth ally of the Coordinators, and ZAFT placed a rather important base there. But otherwise they are completely out of sight.

We Aussies are desperate enough to get international screen-time, that we won't mind if it means getting blown up.
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Old 2007-05-05, 23:03   Link #967
m-san
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Mao mentioned Australia. He wanted to bring CC there to live in solitude together

Anyway, I totally agree with what you said on Suzaku being the perfect Number and Lelouch being the perfect Britannian, which pretty much explains the Emperor's wicked laugh after Geassing Euphie to kill all Japanese It really does seem like everything that's happened is part of the Emperor's scheme -- one big plot to make Lelouch a leader, perhaps as a replacement for him.

What I think Lelouch is good at is showing the big picture through his results, rather than invest on little details -- methods. He shows and gives the Elevens what they want: independence and justice, without letting them realize that innocent, weaponless, and weak people perish in the process. In short, he's sort of like a good salesman -- someone who knows how to market good things and hide bad ones.
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Old 2007-05-06, 02:27   Link #968
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Originally Posted by m-san View Post
What I think Lelouch is good at is showing the big picture through his results, rather than invest on little details -- methods. He shows and gives the Elevens what they want: independence and justice, without letting them realize that innocent, weaponless, and weak people perish in the process. In short, he's sort of like a good salesman -- someone who knows how to market good things and hide bad ones.
Actually, I don't think people are blind to the fact that innocent people are going to die as collateral damage. Zero never claimed to save absolutely everyone, only that he do what he can. All that his followers know is that Zero never intentionally targeted civilians; something Britannia government doesn't mind doing themselves.
As for collateral damage? It is no more than expected. Without Zero, the Black Knights would have been simple minded terrorists blowing up trains and restaurants. Zero focused them into a coherent group that could actually achieve things.

And regardless of his intentions (which is a mystery to all but those who knew who he is), Zero is on the side of the Japanese.
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:33   Link #969
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Correction: Zero never made a proposal to save anyone. Only to do what falls under the category of "justice."

To be honest, I have yet to see any other high ranking official call for the massacre of civilians apart from Clovis (Euphemia doesn't qualify because she was "under the influence"). True, the Britannian army is by no means merciful, but the top tier of the government knows better than to cause a commotion amongst things. Would they WANT to do something like that? The Purists most definitely would, but the government wouldn't do anything to jeopardize the situation at hand.

Collateral damage is indeed an undeniable fact. It's bound to happen in any situation because the rebels will continue their opposition for as long as they exist.

It is for all intents and purposes that Zero is on the side of the Japanese. After all, he needs pawns and other pieces to checkmate the opposite king, no?
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Old 2007-05-06, 20:19   Link #970
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Cornellia also ordered the mass slaughter of civilians, and her generals seemed all to happy to oblige.

Also, don't think of Lulouch on the side of the Japanese. things are too complex to just label him on one side of the conflict.

Also, they didn't inflict colateral damage, they had "targeting systems malfunctions"
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Old 2007-05-10, 02:03   Link #971
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Lelouch does not want to liberate the Elevens/Japanese, his sole purpose is to make a world where his precious Nanaly can be happy. if that means wiping humanity out of the face of the planet, so be it. Lelouch is just manipulating everyone else to meet his own needs, using terms like "freedom", "independent", "justice" and such things to trick the others. He's not a completely colde-blooded bastard or anything, but if something must be done to reach his goal, he'll do it, whether it's at the expense of other innocent's life or the destruction of the world.

Suzaku, on the other hand, was just suicidal after he killed his father and saw that Japan was still ruined with numerous death. So he goes the opposite extreme, to strictly obey rules and following orders without doing anything "wrong" himself again. The Elevens are not strictly "his people", since Japan was conquered by Britannia, so now Japan is part of Britannia, so by rules all Japanese people are now Britannia people. And now he just fights to get revenge for his girl, nothing else.

In many aspects now Lelouch and Suzaku are quite alike. one wants to kill his father, and killed his brother and sister, the other killed his father. both fight so-called "their own people", both betrayed their own country. both now fight solely for the girls most precious to them.
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Old 2007-05-10, 14:45   Link #972
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Lelouch isn't deluding himself to believing that Nunnally will be happy with the destruction of the empire or even with the way this war is "evolving". The way things are progressing, there is no possibility of coexistance for Britannians and others in the near or even distant future (and therefore, the Japanese won't be content with Britannian presence in their community and Nunnally will be discriminated against or even victimized). For both Lelouch and Suzaku, the key thing is revenge. If Lelouch doesn't rid the world of his father, his sister's and his own life will forever be in constant jeopardy. And coexistence for Britannian and Eleven peoples is no longer possible since Suzaku's biggest supporter just got whacked. One thingis s for sure though, Suzaku's no longer looking at the bigger picture, which is independence for his country... but would the Elevens take him back? Traitor to one country, and then a traitor to another... he won't fit in anywhere. So it's hopeless for him really (on a side note, the one who entrusted her life in him, vouched for him and essentially "supported" his cause was killed... by the person he's held a grudge against; Suzaku had insisted on accompanying her in her private conference with Zero and was declined, and that is really a big hit for anyone, anyone who's in the position of preventing catastrophes).
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Old 2007-05-10, 17:54   Link #973
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Originally Posted by HunterRequiem View Post
Cornellia also ordered the mass slaughter of civilians, and her generals seemed all to happy to oblige.
That's a different situation.

General Darlton, who is Cornelia's top general, tried to stop Euphie before getting shot.

Attacking Insurgent fighters with no hands tied behind your backs within civilian quarters is one thing.

Attacking civilians who willingly came to a stadium under the promise of the Britannian SAR is another. That's a can of worms right there. Any leader with half a brain knows how volatile that situation would be.

Quote:
Also, don't think of Lulouch on the side of the Japanese. things are too complex to just label him on one side of the conflict.
He's on his own side, he's fighting for Nunnally's sake.
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Old 2007-05-11, 07:53   Link #974
hipeach
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
One thingis s for sure though, Suzaku's no longer looking at the bigger picture, which is independence for his country...
Suzaku never really looked at the bigger picture, or wanted independence for his country. Those early words were just some self-hypnosis for him, as later when his mind was probed by Mao, it's clearly he was quite suicidal and doesn't want to break any more "rules". And since now Japan is already part of the Britannia, so it'd break "rules" for Japan to get independence. His suicidal self was later cured by Yufei's purity and love, but now he's just a demon of revenge.
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Old 2007-05-11, 08:07   Link #975
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Originally Posted by hipeach View Post
Suzaku never really looked at the bigger picture, or wanted independence for his country. Those early words were just some self-hypnosis for him, as later when his mind was probed by Mao, it's clearly he was quite suicidal and doesn't want to break any more "rules". And since now Japan is already part of the Britannia, so it'd break "rules" for Japan to get independence. His suicidal self was later cured by Yufei's purity and love, but now he's just a demon of revenge.
You can believe what you want, but I personally attribute the treatment of Suzaku's suicidal tendencies to Lulu. Nothing like a rewiring of the brain to make Suzaku change his mind.
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Old 2007-07-16, 02:49   Link #976
holyman282
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I agree, it was because lelouch used geass on him and told him to live that attributed to Suzuka to be incapable of suicide.

As for does the end justify the means, probably not, but compare lelouch's actions to that of the entire Britannia empire.. I personally feel that Britannia is doing the greater amount of damage in the process of achieving their goals.

The end might not justify the means but the means of lelouch is clearly as of the moment better then Britannia, taking into account how many people Britannia killed to make an empire as opposed to how many people Lelouch actually killed.

By the way i also agree that australia is getting enough screen time and wth is with Mao saying that bringing C.C. to australia would bring solitude? Are you serious, Australia isn't just all bush you know..
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Old 2007-07-16, 02:57   Link #977
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The Ozone layer is supposed to be thinner there but even assuming Geass world even has that problem I doubt C.C. would die of any cancer even if Mao didn't cut her into pieces.... But bottom line Australia is a good place to be anyway. I wonder if Australia is a part of the Britannia Empire...

Man, this thread is still going?

Anyway, if the means don't achieve the ends properly then its worthless. At least if the ends actually justfiy the means by getting something done then its harder to argue against it.
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Old 2007-07-16, 03:01   Link #978
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In the end, it all comes down to the results produced for deciding if the means are justified.
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Old 2007-07-19, 23:04   Link #979
narmi
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Both Lelouch and Suzaku are fighting for the right goals. In my opinion Suzaku's methods are ideology while Lelouch's are Machiavellian. In the world of Code Geass and the current events with the situation. Lelouch's method would be perfect but as stated in the begin of the series; "No human is perfect."

Our history was formed through many conflicts and those people who shaped our world new the fact that the ends justify the means.

If Lelouch wins, then history will tell the heroic rebellion of Lelouch against the savage Britannia Empire and how he changed the world for the better. In the other scenerio, Lelouch loses and then history will only tell that Lelouch lead a terrorist organization to cause chaos for the Britannia Empire. Now if Suzaku actually (don't know how) manages to change the Britannia Empire for the good to what Lelouch wanted. Then history would tell how the rebellion was a heroic act. If Suzaku failed in changing the Britannia Empire, history would tell the horrific events that was caused by the rebellion.

One way or the other the ends justify the means for that the winner decides what was right from wrong.
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Old 2007-07-20, 01:30   Link #980
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Now if Suzaku actually (don't know how) manages to change the Britannia Empire for the good to what Lelouch wanted. Then history would tell how the rebellion was a heroic act. If Suzaku failed in changing the Britannia Empire, history would tell the horrific events that was caused by the rebellion.

Dont understand this Britanian and Suzaku's have similar POVs toward the rebellion
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