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Old 2007-08-03, 10:50   Link #1021
evil|plushie
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Exactly. I don't see how you can tell people not to assume things and that doing so would lead to fallacious argument and then assume that suddenly, when someone wants to reenact the massacre of Shinjuku, somehow, secretly, it's assumed she gave the orders to not kill civilians -_- While we do not specifically hear say 'Hey, soldiers, go kill civilians', we do hear her say 'this is going to reenact Shinjuku, so that we can draw Zero out'. REENACT. Which means with the killing of civilians and rebels alike, cause you know...thats what happened in Shinjuku -_-

Plus I disagree that Suzaku sincerely thinks what he is doing will help people. As i mentioned, he's in denial and wants to die and wants redemption. Unfortunately, he can't go help the japanese because he killed his father and basically lost them the war, so the only way he can keep going forward and not invalidate his previous choices is to join the brits.

As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_-

edit: As for selfishness "being largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't", I'd say that's iffy. After all, it can be admitted that Lulu is trying to change the world for Nanali, but then the latter part of the phrase doesn't quite ring true. Why shouldn't Lulu change the world? Is the current state of the world that desireable? Should he just accept the statue quo? Yes, it's true he'll bring lots of suffering if he does try to change the world. But then again, who's to say that those people wouldn't suffer anyway? Isn't there already suffering in the CG world? Isn't it likely to continue? At least if Lulu tries to change the world and succeed, it may end up to be a world with less suffering. So those who want to keep the status quo; like say certain britainnian royalty and certain knights, aren't they selfish as well? Because they want people to keep suffering? Because after all, if the world changes, it might be them that's suffering next and most wouldn't want that.
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Old 2007-08-03, 10:55   Link #1022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_-
Hitler gave the German people hope.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:03   Link #1023
evil|plushie
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Man, godwins law strikes again -_- Lulu <> Hitler.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:04   Link #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Hitler gave the German people hope.
hitler was a hero!
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:14   Link #1025
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Man, godwins law strikes again -_- Lulu <> Hitler.
Oh Jesus Christ.

I hate that BS. Especially when the "transgression" is totally valid.

Did you actually stop and think about that reference? Just because Zero is giving the people "hope" and "helping" them doesn't necessarily mean the overarching situation is better.

Hitler gave his people hope, while he nearly destroyed the world for the worse. Lulu is supposedly giving the people hope while also killing them.

I go back to the SAZ massacre. Lulu used the situation to his advantage, his SELFISH advantage. He had opportunity to prevent the massacre of over 200,000 people, or at least limit it, and made almost no attempt to do so. He tried at first, and then just let her go after that. Stopped me once? All right... I'll just let her flit around and come back later after everyone's dead... (I just watched this episode last night and I already forget the exact chain of events; I know he did attempt to stop her at first but was stopped by the guards, and then I don't think he tried again until later when he shoots her. He was wandering around the stands and such. Doesn't seem like he was in too much of a rush right now. Okay, so he's contemplating and such killing another family member, this one a sibling he likes. But could ya move with a little sense of urgency there, Lulu?)

So yes, the people are uplifted by they perceive Zero giving them, but so much of their pain and suffering is actually caused by him either directly or indirectly. They don't realize it. That's why I am VERY curious to see how Kallen deals with the revelation that Zero inadvertently caused the SAZ massacre. I don't remember (again, my memory sucks) if Suzaku actually said explicitly that Lulu used his Geass on Euhpie when he confronted Lulu at the end of 25.

And I'm not saying that Lulu is Hitler. I'm saying that Hitler ALSO did what you claim Lulu is doing, giving people hope. Hitler and Lulu are much different, I realize that. But saying that Lulu makes up for the suffering he's caused by giving people hope... nuh-uh. Not a chance.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:24   Link #1026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies.
Sorry, but Mao gave us Suzaku's genuine thoughts. He only cared about wanting to die as repentance for killing his father. Not because what he believed he was doing was right.

Quote:
I don't think so. I believe that she simply was recreating the conditions of Shinjuku - i.e. a siege of a rebel held enclave. Again, it brings to mind direct parallels to Fallujah.
Sorry but Fallujah was an attempt to smoke out hundreds of guerillas hiding in an urban area. Saitama was a mass murder in order to lure out one man for Clovis's revenge.

Quote:
It's a matter of who Lelouch is trying to benefit - namely himself and Nunnally. Doing so in the face of the amount of suffering that his actions cause is an extremely selfish sentiment.
Um, sorry but would the Japanese have even had a shot to begin with if Lelouch hadn't done this? I would say the majority of Japanese would be appreciative of the actions of Lelouch so far.

Quote:
That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.
Sorry, but when Cornelia says "Shall we begin?" and Darlton responds by giving an order to destroy the Saitama ghetto. You can't say it didn't come from Cornelia. Sorry but that excuse about aiding the rebels is just a ruse in order to draw out Zero.

If there was a way to sum up Cornelia it would be an honorable Purist. She considers the lives of anyone not Britannian disposable in order to achieve her own goals. However, she will not needlessly risk her Britannian soldier comrades. It's a very good way to create a character that came from nobility.

Honestly, even after the last episode I believe a majority of people still support Lelouch's goal. We've been over the other incidents where Lelouch was responsible for like Narita, and the Euphemia massacre. What you think about those incidents is up to you.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:29   Link #1027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post

I go back to the SAZ massacre. Lulu used the situation to his advantage, his SELFISH advantage. He had opportunity to prevent the massacre of over 200,000 people, or at least limit it, and made almost no attempt to do so. He tried at first, and then just let her go after that. Stopped me once? All right... I'll just let her flit around and come back later after everyone's dead... (I just watched this episode last night and I already forget the exact chain of events; I know he did attempt to stop her at first but was stopped by the guards, and then I don't think he tried again until later when he shoots her. He was wandering around the stands and such. Doesn't seem like he was in too much of a rush right now. Okay, so he's contemplating and such killing another family member, this one a sibling he likes. But could ya move with a little sense of urgency there, Lulu?)
THE SAZ massacre was an ACCIDENT.

Lelouch was NOT giving an order to Euphie, he was making a casual comment that turned into an order because his Geass power grew to wear he couldn't turn it off .
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:31   Link #1028
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Quote:
It's a matter of who Lelouch is trying to benefit - namely himself and Nunnally. Doing so in the face of the amount of suffering that his actions cause is an extremely selfish sentiment.

Kallen fights for the sake of the Japanese people as well as her mother, and Suzaku, foolish as he is, truly believed that his actions will benefit both peoples. The other telling point is that they have caused far less suffering than Lelouch has thus far.

Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies.
1. Lulu doesnot only do all those things for himself and his sister. It is because of his belief about a better world where the weak/poor people can live as well. He does care about equality, he did try to help ppl in those accident where every other ones just emotionlessly looked. Yes he cares for his sister much much much more than the others but he does not try to harm the whole world for that reason, but in contract, he does what he think is better for both (Of course his sis is more important, Lulu you sicko

2. Even when shouldn't ? Suzaku thinks he shouldn't. You think he shouldn't. Who else ? (yes I know there are still some ppl like you, I just happen to see more for-Lulu than against-Lulu opinions in all of the forums I visit, with a proportion of 9:1 ).

3. Despite having a lot of fans, he himself is an anti-Lulu more than most of other characters, except Suzaku and Nina . Although he believes what he did is needed, at times he ussually blames himself. He didn't justify or try to explain (eg., "the Euphie case is an accident" to Suzaku) but simply take the responsibility and goes to hell.

I dont say he is a kind person, and I dont say he is not selfish at all, but considering him that much selfish, you might be driven by your hate

Quote:
Hitler gave the German people hope.
So that they can go out of the country to INVADE other nation.

Tell me what nations did gain back its independence without a leader who could give hope
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:33   Link #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy View Post
THE SAZ massacre was an ACCIDENT.

Lelouch was NOT giving an order to Euphie, he was making a casual comment that turned into an order because his Geass power grew to wear he couldn't turn it off .
Where did I say it wasn't an accident?

I said he used the situation to his selfish advantage once it had begun, accident or not.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:33   Link #1030
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Oh Jesus Christ.

I hate that BS. Especially when the "transgression" is totally valid.
You do realise godwins law just states that the longer an internet discussion drags on, the more probable it is that references to HItler and the nazis will pop up right? -_-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

And I'm not saying Lulu makes up for the suffering by giving people increased hope, but at least he is giving people increased hope. Sure, it'd be nice if the world could just suddenly become better without any suffering, or if everything was just dandy, but from what I've observed, there's usually a bit of suffering with everything that comes along. I guess the adage, no pain no gain, is true.

And Lulu DID try to stop the massacre. Why do you think he had the black knights called in? And besides, he was in frigging shock right after Euphie went berserk. You could see it when the old japanese lady clinged onto him, he recoiled and lamented. I mean, did you expect him to go 'shit, Euphies now gone insane because of me. And is killing lots of people, better stop her now' calmly?

And other than the SAZ blunder, when has Lulu specifically caused pain for the japanese civilians? And even then, he got screwed by his plot device eyes.

edit: Actually, I want to qns the definition of selfish that has been bantered about the forum right now. I mean the definition for selfish is

1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

And the reason I qns that is because if Lulu is so 'selfish' as people put it, why the frigg does he care so much for Nanali and even place her above himself? He's willing to drop almost anything just to go to her side.

And JagdPanther, what would you have done if you were in Lulus shoes? Admitted to everything?
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:37   Link #1031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
You do realise godwins law just states that the longer an internet discussion drags on, the more probable it is that references to HItler and the nazis will pop up right? -_-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law
Yeah....?

And so what's your point?
Quote:
And Lulu DID try to stop the massacre. Why do you think he had the black knights called in? And besides, he was in frigging shock right after Euphie went berserk. You could see it when the old japanese lady clinged onto him, he recoiled and lamented. I mean, did you expect him to go 'shit, Euphies now gone insane because of me. And is killing lots of people, better stop her now' calmly?
Seems to me there was little urgency to him about the whole matter.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:41   Link #1032
evil|plushie
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So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?

And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:43   Link #1033
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?

And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
Plushie beat me to it. To add on to that he now has to kill that first love.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:50   Link #1034
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?
The BS is referencing too pulling out that law. The transgression was my apparent proving of a law that isn't actually a law in any sense.
Quote:
And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
And he has enough time to realize, "Hey, I can wrap people around my finger even more by using this situation to my advantage." Yeap.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:52   Link #1035
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And yet ironically, it's called a law. kinda like murphys law.

And he realised that AFTER he pulled out of his stupor. You know, the part when he went around saving people like you wanted.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:56   Link #1036
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
And yet ironically, it's called a law. kinda like murphys law.
And I love Murphy's Law. Because they're funny. Not because they are actually provable laws.
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Old 2007-08-03, 12:47   Link #1037
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What exactly did you expect Lelouch to do during that massacre? He'd be shot on sight if he went any where near the prince near the start, she was surrounded by guards and he is there enemy. Falling into shock, he ordered the OoTBK to quickly save who ever they could, of course they couldn't save everyone but they did save some.

Lelouch using Euphie's massacre is so that her life doesn't go to waste. He can't leave it as it is, and he can't tell everyone that he did it. He spun it to unite the people and give them some hope after several thousand were just brutishly massacred. The only sound choice who could have made.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:11   Link #1038
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Originally Posted by mangastuff
If you join the invador's army and fire at your ppl, then you will be a traitor no matter what you really want (Except if you are a spy).
That's only really true if your country is still intact. This had no longer been the case for seven years. It can also be argued that the Japanese insurgents were generally making things worse for their people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
Although he tried not to kill civilians (which is considered micracle actually ), he killed the Japanese solders, and save the Britainian solders who are going around killing the Japanese solders and civilains.
There are no Japanese soldiers - you can call them rebels or insurgents or terrorists, but as the Japanese government is defunct, they cannot be said to represent that entity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
About "greatness" and "naive" thing: In short I don't care about Lulu's ruthless because it is more realistic
No it isn't. To be more ruthless is to be more ruthless; it has nothing to do with being more realistic. Besides, ruthlessness is hardly an admirable trait, so what's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
but he is not "great" because he is "too naive for a hero"
Why do you attribute this to naivety rather than Lelouch's lack of ability? This looks a lot like a non sequiter to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
so you need to hear the exact words to know that she order the massacre ?
Not quite. All that is necessary is to logically infer that she was the one behind that particular order. However, both Cornelia's attitude and her subsequent actions suggest that she's not particularly interested in killing the Elevens, and we already know that her subordinates were far from lacking in this respect. Hence, the simpler explanation would be that they acted on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
So simply saying "make another Sinjuku" without adding "dont harm the civilians" means to do what the army did do in Sinjuku, including killing civilians.
Not quite. To tell one's troops "don't harm the civilians" when the insurgents are known hide themselves within the civilian population is rather foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
And Lelouch genuinely believed that his actions would benefit the Japanese and all the colonies, even if to him it would be more of a side effect.
I agree. However, his primary interest is still in benefitting himself and Nunnally, and if the two conflict with one another, it's the selfish interest that will win out. Normally, this isn't much of an issue since both sets of goals are generally in agreement, but it does come up from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
The default assumption is that she didn't give any particular orders, and doing so knowingly and deliberately let her soldiers act like they usually do and kill all the civilians.
This comes back to my original point that she should have known that her troops would be so bloodthirsty. However, I don't know if there's enough evidence to attribute malice to Cornelia's part. Another thing to note is that Cornelia was relatively new to her command, so ignorance is a very real possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
Unfortunately, he can't go help the japanese because he killed his father and basically lost them the war, so the only way he can keep going forward and not invalidate his previous choices is to join the brits.
Not quite. Japan had already lost the war by that point. It was in everyone's interest to surrender. Granted that's not exactly why Suzaku killed his father, so it hardly excuses his behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_-
That's exactly my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
edit: As for selfishness "being largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't", I'd say that's iffy.
While I don't altogether disagree with the points you bring up, they also don't really address the issue of selfishness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
So those who want to keep the status quo; like say certain britainnian royalty and certain knights, aren't they selfish as well?
Yes and no. While they would definitely gain from maintaining the status quo, it's arguable that they're acting primarily to defend their country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
Man, godwins law strikes again -_- Lulu <> Hitler.
There's nothing wrong with invoking Godwin's Law if it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Sorry, but Mao gave us Suzaku's genuine thoughts. He only cared about wanting to die as repentance for killing his father. Not because what he believed he was doing was right.
Perhaps, but Suzaku was also fairly delusional in suppressing his memory of the murder, so he still may have been quite sincere. In any case, his suicidal tendency is hardly likely to override his wish to helping the Japanese people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Sorry but Fallujah was an attempt to smoke out hundreds of guerillas hiding in an urban area. Saitama was a mass murder in order to lure out one man for Clovis's revenge.
Actually, it was a combination of two operations: to crush a insurgent force holed up in Saitama, and to trap Clovis' murderer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Um, sorry but would the Japanese have even had a shot to begin with if Lelouch hadn't done this? I would say the majority of Japanese would be appreciative of the actions of Lelouch so far.
Why does this matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Sorry, but when Cornelia says "Shall we begin?" and Darlton responds by giving an order to destroy the Saitama ghetto. You can't say it didn't come from Cornelia. Sorry but that excuse about aiding the rebels is just a ruse in order to draw out Zero.
Much like how the American troops destroyed Fallujah - isn't that what I've been saying all along?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
Lelouch using Euphie's massacre is so that her life doesn't go to waste.
Not quite, his taking advantage of the situation only further reinforces the impression that he's not a very nice person.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:15   Link #1039
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The fact that 4tran and I are even in partial agreement about something means that the world will probably end today.

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Old 2007-08-03, 13:18   Link #1040
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
The fact that 4tran and I are even in partial agreement about something means that the world will probably end today.
He also sees some things my way and that's a surprise too, so the end of the forum (not the world) is near.
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