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Old 2007-08-03, 09:21   Link #1021
mist2123
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lol why do people hate war???? you know its fun seeing people killing each other
Lulu go for it kill em all!!!!!
damn i hate pro-life j/k

also suzaku is doing the impossible he cant change the inside because the emperor doesnt even give a damn when lulu's mom was killed and her sister injured.
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Old 2007-08-03, 09:40   Link #1022
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
I wonder if this can be said in light of how Suzaku thinks and acts now. Even before Euphie died he was selfish towards his warped ideals, trying to push them onto everyone else while never really giving a moments thought to any other view point.
Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies. However, his vendetta against Zero may well push him into that territory. By the way, not listening to anyone else's viewpoint is a matter of stubbornness and close-mindedness, not selfishness.

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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Didn't she and Darlton discuss remaking the Shinjuku incident by removing the 'monsters' as she calls them? I could be mistaken but I could have sworn she either gave the order or sat there when the order was given.
I don't think so. I believe that she simply was recreating the conditions of Shinjuku - i.e. a siege of a rebel held enclave. Again, it brings to mind direct parallels to Fallujah.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
How has he been more selfish? Because he wants to change the status quo so that his sister will eventually be able to live happily ever after? I really don't see how he has been any more selfish than the rest. You can argue that because of his beliefs, hundreds of people have been killed. But let's look at it this way, Kallen is fighting for the sake of her mother, and for that persons sake is willing to kill enemies on the battlefield until japan is liberated. How is that any more or less selfish than Lulu? Suzaku is fighting because he wants to die and because he wants redemption and vengeance, and to do that, he'll kill enemies on the battlefield until he dies/or is redeemed. How is that any more or less selfish? Seriously, how do you measure the level of selfishness in them?
It's a matter of who Lelouch is trying to benefit - namely himself and Nunnally. Doing so in the face of the amount of suffering that his actions cause is an extremely selfish sentiment.

Kallen fights for the sake of the Japanese people as well as her mother, and Suzaku, foolish as he is, truly believed that his actions will benefit both peoples. The other telling point is that they have caused far less suffering than Lelouch has thus far.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Okay.....so your basic argument is that even though Cornelia was shown saying that she wanted it to be a replica of Shinjuku so as to lure Zero out, she secretly gave orders when off-screen and nobody could see/verify her to spare the civilians if possible? Um...yeah...I suppose that's not impossible, though the chances are low since basically, there's no proof otherwise.
That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majek
What exactly has changed? All the people in power form before are still there pulling the string. People supported that regime and it's actions that lead to this war. It's leader is assumed to be a rotten bastard, infact in all other media he's been decribed like that so why should i accept Japan as a "good country" when no real facts are given.
The difference is that the previous leaders are no longer in power; Britannia is. The thing is, you don't have to accept Japan as a "good country", until something comes up to show that it was heinous, there's no reason to believe that there was anything particularly bad about it.

And can you tell me why people thought so poorly of Suzaku's father? Was it for domestic or international reasons?
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Old 2007-08-03, 09:52   Link #1023
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
While Suzaku certainly murdered his father, why do you think he's a traitor? Would it be because the death of the Prime Minister finished Japan's resistance or because he joined the Britannian military? I've already explained the latter, but the former is similar to what the Japanese peace faction did at the end of World War II, and I don't think that anyone would reasonably see them as traitors.
If you join the invador's army and fire at your ppl, then you will be a traitor no matter what you really want (Except if you are a spy ). Suzaku does want to fight for Britainian army, not that he pretends to do. As I've said, "changing from within" should be consider "balance" when you do not sacrify one side's lives and benefit. Here, Suzaku is not in the "middle" but too much pro-Britainian. Although he tried not to kill civilians (which is considered micracle actually ), he killed the Japanese solders, and save the Britainian solders who are going around killing the Japanese solders and civilains.

And your example is simply not fit.


Just want to clarify because I see you misunderstood sth:
About the "human" thing: Basically, I cannot stand those heroes who are comprehensively good and/or straightforward, who are always saved by luck and win by love, aka god-like So I consider Lulu "more human" compare to them.

About "greatness" and "naive" thing: In short I don't care about Lulu's ruthless because it is more realistic (if you see one real one with huge military power who is not ruthless, try to find whether it is an act or not, and then if not wait whether he is going to die soon or not ), but he is not "great" because he is "too naive for a hero", and that include many thing you know, what you list and even more ("a very talented kid is still a kid" )


--------------

I am sorry I have to add this, because it is a so funny arguement
Quote:
That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.
so you need to hear the exact words to know that she order the massacre ? As an experient general, She knew about obvious consequence in such kind of attack, moreover, she knew what really DID happen last time. So simply saying "make another Sinjuku" without adding "dont harm the civilians" means to do what the army did do in Sinjuku, including killing civilians.

Last edited by mangastuff; 2007-08-03 at 10:32. Reason: for grammar, sigh
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Old 2007-08-03, 10:15   Link #1024
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
And can you tell me why people thought so poorly of Suzaku's father? Was it for domestic or international reasons?
They didn't, he was their messiah.
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Old 2007-08-03, 10:33   Link #1025
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies. However, his vendetta against Zero may well push him into that territory. By the way, not listening to anyone else's viewpoint is a matter of stubbornness and close-mindedness, not selfishness.
And Lelouch genuinely believed that his actions would benefit the Japanese and all the colonies, even if to him it would be more of a side effect.

Quote:
That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.
The default assumption is that she didn't give any particular orders, and doing so knowingly and deliberately let her soldiers act like they usually do and kill all the civilians.
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Old 2007-08-03, 10:50   Link #1026
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Exactly. I don't see how you can tell people not to assume things and that doing so would lead to fallacious argument and then assume that suddenly, when someone wants to reenact the massacre of Shinjuku, somehow, secretly, it's assumed she gave the orders to not kill civilians -_- While we do not specifically hear say 'Hey, soldiers, go kill civilians', we do hear her say 'this is going to reenact Shinjuku, so that we can draw Zero out'. REENACT. Which means with the killing of civilians and rebels alike, cause you know...thats what happened in Shinjuku -_-

Plus I disagree that Suzaku sincerely thinks what he is doing will help people. As i mentioned, he's in denial and wants to die and wants redemption. Unfortunately, he can't go help the japanese because he killed his father and basically lost them the war, so the only way he can keep going forward and not invalidate his previous choices is to join the brits.

As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_-

edit: As for selfishness "being largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't", I'd say that's iffy. After all, it can be admitted that Lulu is trying to change the world for Nanali, but then the latter part of the phrase doesn't quite ring true. Why shouldn't Lulu change the world? Is the current state of the world that desireable? Should he just accept the statue quo? Yes, it's true he'll bring lots of suffering if he does try to change the world. But then again, who's to say that those people wouldn't suffer anyway? Isn't there already suffering in the CG world? Isn't it likely to continue? At least if Lulu tries to change the world and succeed, it may end up to be a world with less suffering. So those who want to keep the status quo; like say certain britainnian royalty and certain knights, aren't they selfish as well? Because they want people to keep suffering? Because after all, if the world changes, it might be them that's suffering next and most wouldn't want that.
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Old 2007-08-03, 10:55   Link #1027
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_-
Hitler gave the German people hope.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:03   Link #1028
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Man, godwins law strikes again -_- Lulu <> Hitler.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:04   Link #1029
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
Hitler gave the German people hope.
hitler was a hero!
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:14   Link #1030
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Man, godwins law strikes again -_- Lulu <> Hitler.
Oh Jesus Christ.

I hate that BS. Especially when the "transgression" is totally valid.

Did you actually stop and think about that reference? Just because Zero is giving the people "hope" and "helping" them doesn't necessarily mean the overarching situation is better.

Hitler gave his people hope, while he nearly destroyed the world for the worse. Lulu is supposedly giving the people hope while also killing them.

I go back to the SAZ massacre. Lulu used the situation to his advantage, his SELFISH advantage. He had opportunity to prevent the massacre of over 200,000 people, or at least limit it, and made almost no attempt to do so. He tried at first, and then just let her go after that. Stopped me once? All right... I'll just let her flit around and come back later after everyone's dead... (I just watched this episode last night and I already forget the exact chain of events; I know he did attempt to stop her at first but was stopped by the guards, and then I don't think he tried again until later when he shoots her. He was wandering around the stands and such. Doesn't seem like he was in too much of a rush right now. Okay, so he's contemplating and such killing another family member, this one a sibling he likes. But could ya move with a little sense of urgency there, Lulu?)

So yes, the people are uplifted by they perceive Zero giving them, but so much of their pain and suffering is actually caused by him either directly or indirectly. They don't realize it. That's why I am VERY curious to see how Kallen deals with the revelation that Zero inadvertently caused the SAZ massacre. I don't remember (again, my memory sucks) if Suzaku actually said explicitly that Lulu used his Geass on Euhpie when he confronted Lulu at the end of 25.

And I'm not saying that Lulu is Hitler. I'm saying that Hitler ALSO did what you claim Lulu is doing, giving people hope. Hitler and Lulu are much different, I realize that. But saying that Lulu makes up for the suffering he's caused by giving people hope... nuh-uh. Not a chance.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:24   Link #1031
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies.
Sorry, but Mao gave us Suzaku's genuine thoughts. He only cared about wanting to die as repentance for killing his father. Not because what he believed he was doing was right.

Quote:
I don't think so. I believe that she simply was recreating the conditions of Shinjuku - i.e. a siege of a rebel held enclave. Again, it brings to mind direct parallels to Fallujah.
Sorry but Fallujah was an attempt to smoke out hundreds of guerillas hiding in an urban area. Saitama was a mass murder in order to lure out one man for Clovis's revenge.

Quote:
It's a matter of who Lelouch is trying to benefit - namely himself and Nunnally. Doing so in the face of the amount of suffering that his actions cause is an extremely selfish sentiment.
Um, sorry but would the Japanese have even had a shot to begin with if Lelouch hadn't done this? I would say the majority of Japanese would be appreciative of the actions of Lelouch so far.

Quote:
That's not quite it. We don't see her giving any orders to slaughter any civilians, so the default assumption is that she didn't do so. Besides, I believe that the soldiers' justification for killing said civilians was because they were aiding and abetting the rebels - apparently equivalent to treason and subject to summary execution.
Sorry, but when Cornelia says "Shall we begin?" and Darlton responds by giving an order to destroy the Saitama ghetto. You can't say it didn't come from Cornelia. Sorry but that excuse about aiding the rebels is just a ruse in order to draw out Zero.

If there was a way to sum up Cornelia it would be an honorable Purist. She considers the lives of anyone not Britannian disposable in order to achieve her own goals. However, she will not needlessly risk her Britannian soldier comrades. It's a very good way to create a character that came from nobility.

Honestly, even after the last episode I believe a majority of people still support Lelouch's goal. We've been over the other incidents where Lelouch was responsible for like Narita, and the Euphemia massacre. What you think about those incidents is up to you.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:29   Link #1032
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post

I go back to the SAZ massacre. Lulu used the situation to his advantage, his SELFISH advantage. He had opportunity to prevent the massacre of over 200,000 people, or at least limit it, and made almost no attempt to do so. He tried at first, and then just let her go after that. Stopped me once? All right... I'll just let her flit around and come back later after everyone's dead... (I just watched this episode last night and I already forget the exact chain of events; I know he did attempt to stop her at first but was stopped by the guards, and then I don't think he tried again until later when he shoots her. He was wandering around the stands and such. Doesn't seem like he was in too much of a rush right now. Okay, so he's contemplating and such killing another family member, this one a sibling he likes. But could ya move with a little sense of urgency there, Lulu?)
THE SAZ massacre was an ACCIDENT.

Lelouch was NOT giving an order to Euphie, he was making a casual comment that turned into an order because his Geass power grew to wear he couldn't turn it off .
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:31   Link #1033
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It's a matter of who Lelouch is trying to benefit - namely himself and Nunnally. Doing so in the face of the amount of suffering that his actions cause is an extremely selfish sentiment.

Kallen fights for the sake of the Japanese people as well as her mother, and Suzaku, foolish as he is, truly believed that his actions will benefit both peoples. The other telling point is that they have caused far less suffering than Lelouch has thus far.

Selfishness is largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't. Since Suzaku genuinely believed that his actions would eventually benefit the Japanese people in general, I don't think that it really qualifies.
1. Lulu doesnot only do all those things for himself and his sister. It is because of his belief about a better world where the weak/poor people can live as well. He does care about equality, he did try to help ppl in those accident where every other ones just emotionlessly looked. Yes he cares for his sister much much much more than the others but he does not try to harm the whole world for that reason, but in contract, he does what he think is better for both (Of course his sis is more important, Lulu you sicko

2. Even when shouldn't ? Suzaku thinks he shouldn't. You think he shouldn't. Who else ? (yes I know there are still some ppl like you, I just happen to see more for-Lulu than against-Lulu opinions in all of the forums I visit, with a proportion of 9:1 ).

3. Despite having a lot of fans, he himself is an anti-Lulu more than most of other characters, except Suzaku and Nina . Although he believes what he did is needed, at times he ussually blames himself. He didn't justify or try to explain (eg., "the Euphie case is an accident" to Suzaku) but simply take the responsibility and goes to hell.

I dont say he is a kind person, and I dont say he is not selfish at all, but considering him that much selfish, you might be driven by your hate

Quote:
Hitler gave the German people hope.
So that they can go out of the country to INVADE other nation.

Tell me what nations did gain back its independence without a leader who could give hope
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:33   Link #1034
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy View Post
THE SAZ massacre was an ACCIDENT.

Lelouch was NOT giving an order to Euphie, he was making a casual comment that turned into an order because his Geass power grew to wear he couldn't turn it off .
Where did I say it wasn't an accident?

I said he used the situation to his selfish advantage once it had begun, accident or not.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:33   Link #1035
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Oh Jesus Christ.

I hate that BS. Especially when the "transgression" is totally valid.
You do realise godwins law just states that the longer an internet discussion drags on, the more probable it is that references to HItler and the nazis will pop up right? -_-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

And I'm not saying Lulu makes up for the suffering by giving people increased hope, but at least he is giving people increased hope. Sure, it'd be nice if the world could just suddenly become better without any suffering, or if everything was just dandy, but from what I've observed, there's usually a bit of suffering with everything that comes along. I guess the adage, no pain no gain, is true.

And Lulu DID try to stop the massacre. Why do you think he had the black knights called in? And besides, he was in frigging shock right after Euphie went berserk. You could see it when the old japanese lady clinged onto him, he recoiled and lamented. I mean, did you expect him to go 'shit, Euphies now gone insane because of me. And is killing lots of people, better stop her now' calmly?

And other than the SAZ blunder, when has Lulu specifically caused pain for the japanese civilians? And even then, he got screwed by his plot device eyes.

edit: Actually, I want to qns the definition of selfish that has been bantered about the forum right now. I mean the definition for selfish is

1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

And the reason I qns that is because if Lulu is so 'selfish' as people put it, why the frigg does he care so much for Nanali and even place her above himself? He's willing to drop almost anything just to go to her side.

And JagdPanther, what would you have done if you were in Lulus shoes? Admitted to everything?
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:37   Link #1036
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
You do realise godwins law just states that the longer an internet discussion drags on, the more probable it is that references to HItler and the nazis will pop up right? -_-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law
Yeah....?

And so what's your point?
Quote:
And Lulu DID try to stop the massacre. Why do you think he had the black knights called in? And besides, he was in frigging shock right after Euphie went berserk. You could see it when the old japanese lady clinged onto him, he recoiled and lamented. I mean, did you expect him to go 'shit, Euphies now gone insane because of me. And is killing lots of people, better stop her now' calmly?
Seems to me there was little urgency to him about the whole matter.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:41   Link #1037
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So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?

And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:43   Link #1038
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?

And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
Plushie beat me to it. To add on to that he now has to kill that first love.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:50   Link #1039
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So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?
The BS is referencing too pulling out that law. The transgression was my apparent proving of a law that isn't actually a law in any sense.
Quote:
And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
And he has enough time to realize, "Hey, I can wrap people around my finger even more by using this situation to my advantage." Yeap.
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Old 2007-08-03, 11:52   Link #1040
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And yet ironically, it's called a law. kinda like murphys law.

And he realised that AFTER he pulled out of his stupor. You know, the part when he went around saving people like you wanted.
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