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Old 2007-08-03, 11:56   Link #1041
JagdPanther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
And yet ironically, it's called a law. kinda like murphys law.
And I love Murphy's Law. Because they're funny. Not because they are actually provable laws.
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Old 2007-08-03, 12:47   Link #1042
Var
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What exactly did you expect Lelouch to do during that massacre? He'd be shot on sight if he went any where near the prince near the start, she was surrounded by guards and he is there enemy. Falling into shock, he ordered the OoTBK to quickly save who ever they could, of course they couldn't save everyone but they did save some.

Lelouch using Euphie's massacre is so that her life doesn't go to waste. He can't leave it as it is, and he can't tell everyone that he did it. He spun it to unite the people and give them some hope after several thousand were just brutishly massacred. The only sound choice who could have made.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:11   Link #1043
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
If you join the invador's army and fire at your ppl, then you will be a traitor no matter what you really want (Except if you are a spy).
That's only really true if your country is still intact. This had no longer been the case for seven years. It can also be argued that the Japanese insurgents were generally making things worse for their people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
Although he tried not to kill civilians (which is considered micracle actually ), he killed the Japanese solders, and save the Britainian solders who are going around killing the Japanese solders and civilains.
There are no Japanese soldiers - you can call them rebels or insurgents or terrorists, but as the Japanese government is defunct, they cannot be said to represent that entity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
About "greatness" and "naive" thing: In short I don't care about Lulu's ruthless because it is more realistic
No it isn't. To be more ruthless is to be more ruthless; it has nothing to do with being more realistic. Besides, ruthlessness is hardly an admirable trait, so what's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
but he is not "great" because he is "too naive for a hero"
Why do you attribute this to naivety rather than Lelouch's lack of ability? This looks a lot like a non sequiter to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
so you need to hear the exact words to know that she order the massacre ?
Not quite. All that is necessary is to logically infer that she was the one behind that particular order. However, both Cornelia's attitude and her subsequent actions suggest that she's not particularly interested in killing the Elevens, and we already know that her subordinates were far from lacking in this respect. Hence, the simpler explanation would be that they acted on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mangastuff
So simply saying "make another Sinjuku" without adding "dont harm the civilians" means to do what the army did do in Sinjuku, including killing civilians.
Not quite. To tell one's troops "don't harm the civilians" when the insurgents are known hide themselves within the civilian population is rather foolish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
And Lelouch genuinely believed that his actions would benefit the Japanese and all the colonies, even if to him it would be more of a side effect.
I agree. However, his primary interest is still in benefitting himself and Nunnally, and if the two conflict with one another, it's the selfish interest that will win out. Normally, this isn't much of an issue since both sets of goals are generally in agreement, but it does come up from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
The default assumption is that she didn't give any particular orders, and doing so knowingly and deliberately let her soldiers act like they usually do and kill all the civilians.
This comes back to my original point that she should have known that her troops would be so bloodthirsty. However, I don't know if there's enough evidence to attribute malice to Cornelia's part. Another thing to note is that Cornelia was relatively new to her command, so ignorance is a very real possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
Unfortunately, he can't go help the japanese because he killed his father and basically lost them the war, so the only way he can keep going forward and not invalidate his previous choices is to join the brits.
Not quite. Japan had already lost the war by that point. It was in everyone's interest to surrender. Granted that's not exactly why Suzaku killed his father, so it hardly excuses his behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_-
That's exactly my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
edit: As for selfishness "being largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't", I'd say that's iffy.
While I don't altogether disagree with the points you bring up, they also don't really address the issue of selfishness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
So those who want to keep the status quo; like say certain britainnian royalty and certain knights, aren't they selfish as well?
Yes and no. While they would definitely gain from maintaining the status quo, it's arguable that they're acting primarily to defend their country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
Man, godwins law strikes again -_- Lulu <> Hitler.
There's nothing wrong with invoking Godwin's Law if it's relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Sorry, but Mao gave us Suzaku's genuine thoughts. He only cared about wanting to die as repentance for killing his father. Not because what he believed he was doing was right.
Perhaps, but Suzaku was also fairly delusional in suppressing his memory of the murder, so he still may have been quite sincere. In any case, his suicidal tendency is hardly likely to override his wish to helping the Japanese people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Sorry but Fallujah was an attempt to smoke out hundreds of guerillas hiding in an urban area. Saitama was a mass murder in order to lure out one man for Clovis's revenge.
Actually, it was a combination of two operations: to crush a insurgent force holed up in Saitama, and to trap Clovis' murderer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Um, sorry but would the Japanese have even had a shot to begin with if Lelouch hadn't done this? I would say the majority of Japanese would be appreciative of the actions of Lelouch so far.
Why does this matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy
Sorry, but when Cornelia says "Shall we begin?" and Darlton responds by giving an order to destroy the Saitama ghetto. You can't say it didn't come from Cornelia. Sorry but that excuse about aiding the rebels is just a ruse in order to draw out Zero.
Much like how the American troops destroyed Fallujah - isn't that what I've been saying all along?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
Lelouch using Euphie's massacre is so that her life doesn't go to waste.
Not quite, his taking advantage of the situation only further reinforces the impression that he's not a very nice person.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:15   Link #1044
JagdPanther
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The fact that 4tran and I are even in partial agreement about something means that the world will probably end today.

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Old 2007-08-03, 13:18   Link #1045
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Originally Posted by JagdPanther View Post
The fact that 4tran and I are even in partial agreement about something means that the world will probably end today.
He also sees some things my way and that's a surprise too, so the end of the forum (not the world) is near.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:39   Link #1046
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Not quite. All that is necessary is to logically infer that she was the one behind that particular order. However, both Cornelia's attitude and her subsequent actions suggest that she's not particularly interested in killing the Elevens, and we already know that her subordinates were far from lacking in this respect. Hence, the simpler explanation would be that they acted on their own.
She's not new to conquering countries or leading Britanian armies. Even if her personal troops are more elite and disciplined, she knows how the average Britanian soldier feels about Numbers. And how little incentive there is to treating them like human beings.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:44   Link #1047
Blue_Mercy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post

Perhaps, but Suzaku was also fairly delusional in suppressing his memory of the murder, so he still may have been quite sincere. In any case, his suicidal tendency is hardly likely to override his wish to helping the Japanese people.
You can't have it both ways, either he was fighting for repentance or fighting with sincerity.

Quote:
Actually, it was a combination of two operations: to crush a insurgent force holed up in Saitama, and to trap Clovis' murderer.
Sorry but Cornelia could care less about the small amount of insurgents in a ghetto.

Quote:
Why does this matter?
It matters because if Lelouch keeps winning battles for them against Britannia, they don't need to know Lelouch's motives. It's the same with alliances you might not agree on some of the same issues but if you are fighting against a common enemy you can put those issues aside.

Quote:
Much like how the American troops destroyed Fallujah - isn't that what I've been saying all along?
I'm saying its not like Fallujah, the American troops weren't killing people who were surrendering after fighting. With Fallujah the phosphorous did more extensive damage than American troops realized. I know that sounds like American propaganda speaking, but it isn't. It's not the same as a general telling them to go in a kill every single person in a suburb man, woman, or child. As we saw with the destruction of the Shinjuku ghetto thats what that order means.

Quote:
Not quite, his taking advantage of the situation only further reinforces the impression that he's not a very nice person.
Nobody is saying he is a nice person, he even admits to be a devil. However, the question is if people are willing to support Lelouch as he walks his path of carnage. Some on the forum are, and some aren't.
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Old 2007-08-03, 13:47   Link #1048
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Quote:
Much like how the American troops destroyed Fallujah - isn't that what I've been saying all along?
who cares about fallujah??

does everybody here really know what justice means.(dont put the meaning in the dictionary)
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Old 2007-08-03, 14:47   Link #1049
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
She's not new to conquering countries or leading Britanian armies. Even if her personal troops are more elite and disciplined, she knows how the average Britanian soldier feels about Numbers. And how little incentive there is to treating them like human beings.
That's not necessarily true. Soldiers operating in different theatres can often behave very differently. Case in point: IJA troops in Manchuria, China, and Taiwan all treated their local populations very differently. In the case of Britannia, local commanders have a very strong influence on how their subordinates act, so a comparison to the decentralized nature of the IJA seems appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny
You can't have it both ways, either he was fighting for repentance or fighting with sincerity.
Sure you can - that's what it means to be delusional. I'm not sure what your point here is, since I sure as heck am not interested in defending Suzaku - I've already pointed out that his selfish obsession with revenge is threatening to overwhelm his better senses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny
Sorry but Cornelia could care less about the small amount of insurgents in a ghetto.
Define "small".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny
It matters because if Lelouch keeps winning battles for them against Britannia, they don't need to know Lelouch's motives. It's the same with alliances you might not agree on some of the same issues but if you are fighting against a common enemy you can put those issues aside.
Why does this matter? The question at hand has nothing to do with how any character in Code Geass views Lelouch's motives; it's about how we view them, and how they affect his actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Destiny
I'm saying its not like Fallujah, the American troops weren't killing people who were surrendering after fighting.
The American troops established a cordon around Fallujah in November of 2004 and declared their intention to attack. Most of the population of the city tried to flee in advance, but all military aged men and teenagers were forced to stay inside. After the deadline passed, the Americans proceeded to attack the city using heavy weapons and lots of air support, with the understanding that everyone left within should be considered a potential insurgent. They ended up recapturing the city, leveling much of it in the process. It makes for a very useful comparison and contrast to Shinjuku and Saitama.

Certainly, the Britannians were more ruthless, even eager to gun down civilians, but other than that, it's not really that much different in essence from Fallujah. I'll reiterate that an order to level a city is very different from one ordering the death of every man, woman and child within it.
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Old 2007-08-03, 17:13   Link #1050
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Just in here for a quick comment:

Lelouch had intended to ruin Euphemia's reputation one way or the other during the Special Administrative Zone commencement. It was only after what she said (I don't know how her comments triggered something in Lelouch's mind, but it did) that forced a change of opinion. Who knows, Lelouch could've played her for a fool even after accepting the proposal... but it was pretty clear what he intended.

He had originally planned for Euphemia to be Geassed to shoot him, therefore causing a ruckus since the Elevens would not tolerate such a betrayal. And even as Lelouch became enraged, he really showed his feelings about what Euphemia had done (loathed it, felt betrayed by her, etc.).

The whole affair was not so much an accident as was the person who suggested the plot head in this direction.
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Old 2007-08-03, 22:31   Link #1051
anti-random
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People, people. Lets just accept the fact that the ends justify the means. I mean in Code Geass. yeah. We know that all of LL's actions have got to their preferred ends. alright, one can argue that Euphemia gping crazy and killing people wasn't exactly what he expected but us Juyniled said, he wasn't exactly going to support Euphie.

Why does everyone question LL's ations. I mean look at Cornelia. She is the 'best' and moralistic and neither is Suzaku. Everybody uses force in the end, mostly voilet hurting force but hey, thats how the world is.
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Old 2007-08-03, 22:33   Link #1052
evil|plushie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Not quite. All that is necessary is to logically infer that she was the one behind that particular order. However, both Cornelia's attitude and her subsequent actions suggest that she's not particularly interested in killing the Elevens, and we already know that her subordinates were far from lacking in this respect. Hence, the simpler explanation would be that they acted on their own.
Sigh. Cornelia's attitude suggests that she doesn't care for 11s one way or another. It doesn't mean she wouldn't order the entire ghetto to be leveled ; ie. kill everyone, if it suited her tactics to do so. This is the same woman who Lelouch said wouldn't care about the hostages the JLF took if Euphie wasn't with them. Now you can go on assuming whatever you want about how she gave orders to not kill civilians, but the rest of us? We're going with what the show showed us and that was her ordering a reenactment of Shinjuku. There, dead horse flogged.


Quote:
There's nothing wrong with invoking Godwin's Law if it's relevant to the discussion at hand.
Was it even relevant? How on earth is Lelouch more similar to Hitler than say Joan of Arc, Napoleon, George Washington, etc? Oooh, I bet he rounded up brits into concentration camps. No? Or maybe he will kill and replace all the OotBk with fanatics that are dedicated to serving him and act as his secret service.
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Old 2007-08-03, 22:38   Link #1053
anti-random
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yeah. why not have the SS going around. Any way, I disgaree with your view to Cornelia. True in the start she could give a .... about elevens but as the series progressed her realtionship to Suzaku improved and her attitude to elevens. She knightened Suzaku in the end after all
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Old 2007-08-03, 22:46   Link #1054
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvyniled
He had originally planned for Euphemia to be Geassed to shoot him, therefore causing a ruckus since the Elevens would not tolerate such a betrayal. And even as Lelouch became enraged, he really showed his feelings about what Euphemia had done (loathed it, felt betrayed by her, etc.).
Yup. And the fact that he eventually let Euphemia convince him to give her plan a chance was his most selfless act in the entire show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
Sigh. Cornelia's attitude suggests that she doesn't care for 11s one way or another. It doesn't mean she wouldn't order the entire ghetto to be leveled
And? That still doesn't mean that she ordered all the people executed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie
Was it even relevant? How on earth is Lelouch more similar to Hitler than say Joan of Arc, Napoleon, George Washington, etc? Oooh, I bet he rounded up brits into concentration camps. No? Or maybe he will kill and replace all the OotBk with fanatics that are dedicated to serving him and act as his secret service.
In that case, point out the weakness in Jagdpanther's comparison. And reserve your Godwin's Law accusations for when your opponent accuses you of being like Hitler.
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Old 2007-08-03, 23:06   Link #1055
anti-random
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don't know 4tran. i mean he was probably was going to use geass on euphie to get her to shoot him in front of the entire crowd
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Old 2007-08-03, 23:11   Link #1056
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He fully planned to, but he changed his mind at the last minute. In fact, Lelouch pretty much gave up on most of his plans then and there. He was at enough ease that he was even willing to tell Euphemia about his Geass power - which is exactly where everything went to hell in a handbasket.
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Old 2007-08-03, 23:23   Link #1057
anti-random
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still unconvinced. i don't believe he would tell euphie about geass. he'd want it to be kept a secret
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Old 2007-08-03, 23:40   Link #1058
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by anti-random View Post
still unconvinced. i don't believe he would tell euphie about geass. he'd want it to be kept a secret
He did start to tell Euphie about his geass before it went out of control. Watch ep 22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
In that case, point out the weakness in Jagdpanther's comparison. And reserve your Godwin's Law accusations for when your opponent accuses you of being like Hitler.
Geez, doesn't anyone know what Godwins law actually is? It is not an accusation. It merely states that the further on a discussion goes, the more probable that a reference/comparison to Hitler or the nazis will surface. And guess what? it was correct in this case, unless you're telling me that someone didn't bring in Hitler? If so, it's not an accusation.

As for the weakness in Jagdpanthers comparison, I've already stated it. How on earth is Lulu like Hitler? If you had bothered to read the previous posts, you'd notice was that he compared Hitler to Lulu because both gave hope to people, but unfortunately, the mere fact that you have to choose Hitler out of dozens of potential war personnel who did give hope to people (ie. look at my list previously, I can't be bothered to explain things again) is kinda telling don't you think? It's not a casual reference so much as it is a specific one. So again, why Hitler?
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Old 2007-08-03, 23:48   Link #1059
JagdPanther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
So again, why Hitler?
So I have to choose someone else for you to get the point? Meh, well, beggars can't be choosers.
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Old 2007-08-04, 01:56   Link #1060
mangastuff
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@4Tran
Now I know why you hate Lulu that much and why you can't see his belief (agree or not, only recognize is fine, but no, you even can't see it, that's why you said he ONLY fight for himself and his sis). The reason is: You dont give a damn about the RIGHT OF THE WEAK !!

What about the right to decide whether they should fight to protect their freedom or should surrender ?

What about the right to choose their own Gov ? Because they are invaded, the true owner now become terrorists ? The civilians who support the resisters (the vast majority of Japansese) now become law-breakers, aka need-to-die criminals ?

So just because Britainian is stronger, it is not a traitor to kill your leader (let alone your father) who doesnt want to surrender without caring about others ideas ? Just because the country are invaded and is forced to have a new ruler, it is not a traitor to kill your compatriots who want to resist and get back their rightful freedom ?

Just because someone has enough arms to crush the world, they morally become ruler and no one has the right to resist ?

Unkind as I am, I don't give a damn about the law of the jungle, but to see it as moral, you are really as amazing as the Emperor !!!
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