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Old 2008-03-24, 16:11   Link #1201
Var
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
peace is not "you 12 people stole my green haired immortal test subject, so I am going to kill everyone in this area so no one can every rat me out for having her." and "To eliminate Lelouch and C.C., we're going to kill every last person left in this building, and then blame it on the terrorists."

Britannia is no better than the "terrorists" that Ougi and co. were before they came under Lelouch. Rulers are only rulers because there's certain standards they stand to that others don't, such as don't target unrelated civilians. Without that, Britannia has absolutely nothing over the Order (they're in fact probably lower, since the Order doesn't target civilians), and it just becomes and endless cycle of "who was the one who caused all this? Britannia, who made Japan a correctional district? The Order, for rebelling? Or was it Britannia who conquered the country and took away the Japanese people's rights in the first place? etc., etc."
I said 'peace', as in fake peace, but peace that some civilians can find hope in. That is where most of the blame probably comes from. Even if they lived in constant fear there was some semblance of peace as long as no one did anything against Britannia.

Even your examples show how everything could be blamed on OB and Zero. They broke the peace, people will blame them for it.

The Order kills civilians, just not intentionally but they do.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:23   Link #1202
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I said 'peace', as in fake peace, but peace that some civilians can find hope in. That is where most of the blame probably comes from. Even if they lived in constant fear there was some semblance of peace as long as no one did anything against Britannia.

Even your examples show how everything could be blamed on OB and Zero. They broke the peace, people will blame them for it.

The Order kills civilians, just not intentionally but they do.
No way your putting this all on the Order. Britannia's massacres should be reason enough to stop any kind of argument against the Order.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:24   Link #1203
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No way your putting this all on the Order. Britannia's massacres should be reason enough to stop any kind of argument against the Order.
I'm not. Honest. I'm just saying that the Order can, and will, be blamed for what happened.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:33   Link #1204
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Even your examples show how everything could be blamed on OB and Zero. They broke the peace, people will blame them for it.

The Order kills civilians, just not intentionally but they do.
But that is a pretty long stretch. I mean people in the show might believe it, but we can see that the Order's actions aren't anywhere bad enough for Britannia to do the sort of things they've done. 0_o

And I just said target civilians, I never said kill civilians. uninvolved people will always die in wars, but there is a difference between collateral damage and outright massacre.

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I'm not. Honest. I'm just saying that the Order can, and will, be blamed for what happened.
not like they were winning that many friends in Britannia anyway.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:37   Link #1205
Dann of Thursday
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Yeah, you can't deny that Britannia has probably started some whole thing against the Order to make sure they don't get support anymore by saying the restrictions on Japan are due to what the Order did.
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Old 2008-03-24, 17:07   Link #1206
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Yeah, you can't deny that Britannia has probably started some whole thing against the Order to make sure they don't get support anymore by saying the restrictions on Japan are due to what the Order did.
or they really just don't care what Carares does the place.

well, same difference I guess.
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Old 2008-03-24, 17:17   Link #1207
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I'm not. Honest. I'm just saying that the Order can, and will, be blamed for what happened.
Be blamed, yeah, but by now the Japanese have seen enough cruelty by Britannia that anything they say is going to be questioned.
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Old 2008-03-24, 19:15   Link #1208
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Be blamed, yeah, but by now the Japanese have seen enough cruelty by Britannia that anything they say is going to be questioned.
That's true, I was just pointing out the fact.

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But that is a pretty long stretch. I mean people in the show might believe it, but we can see that the Order's actions aren't anywhere bad enough for Britannia to do the sort of things they've done. 0_o

And I just said target civilians, I never said kill civilians. uninvolved people will always die in wars, but there is a difference between collateral damage and outright massacre.


not like they were winning that many friends in Britannia anyway.
Ahh sorry I misinterpreted what you had written, I thought you meant just kill civilians which both sides do. Apologize.

Well. Now they definately have no friends in Britannia :P Though, actually, I'd say alot of younger people may have 'supported' or found interest in the OB. Younger people are known to be more rebelious and we even see in Ashford how the OB is discussed between students. Given that by the end of S1 OB was feared by them.
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Old 2008-03-24, 21:44   Link #1209
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It's true that we saw people like Rivalz think they were cool, but that pretty much changed when Shirley had her father get killed. As soon as they had a reason to fear and not like them, they took it.

There is also the fact that they are led by a man in a mask whose trust could be considered questionable by some. I remember one Bokura no Hibiki that had Shirley saying she thought about supporting them like some people did, but thought Zero looked untrustworthy and that he could stab you in the back.
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Old 2008-03-24, 21:56   Link #1210
ashlay
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It's true that we saw people like Rivalz think they were cool, but that pretty much changed when Shirley had her father get killed. As soon as they had a reason to fear and not like them, they took it.

There is also the fact that they are led by a man in a mask whose trust could be considered questionable by some. I remember one Bokura no Hibiki that had Shirley saying she thought about supporting them like some people did, but thought Zero looked untrustworthy and that he could stab you in the back.
not like it would take much for them to be afraid of Britannia though. One screw up by Carares and their fragile little worlds would be turned upside down.

Funny that Shirley ended up being the one who shot someone in the back, not Lulu.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:03   Link #1211
Dann of Thursday
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Well, they are Britannians. What do they have to worry about besides the Order showing up again and perhaps causing a rebellion? How did Lelouch plan on keeping a hold of everything? I'd expect the Japanese to hurt a lot of Britannians whether they deserved it or not. Look at what happened to Viletta.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:14   Link #1212
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
Well, they are Britannians. What do they have to worry about besides the Order showing up again and perhaps causing a rebellion? How did Lelouch plan on keeping a hold of everything? I'd expect the Japanese to hurt a lot of Britannians whether they deserved it or not. Look at what happened to Viletta.
tell that to the Black King and all those other dead Britannians in the Tower of Babel. Tell that to Bartley. Tell that to Marianne.

Point is, Britannians aren't really safe with anyone, especially their government. And when they realize it, there may be more defections to the Order than nutjobs (lovable nutjobs) like Diethard.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:19   Link #1213
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tell that to the Black King and all those other dead Britannians in the Tower of Babel. Tell that to Bartley. Tell that to Marianne.

Point is, Britannians aren't really safe with anyone, especially their government. And when they realize it, there may be more defections to the Order than nutjobs (lovable nutjobs) like Diethard.
Hey look at the bright side at least they aren't discriminating towards one side and given each and everyone equal treatment.

But seriously, I have a feeling that Cornelia may play a role in further britannian defections.

Techincally speaking Lelouch "should" have some sort of loyalty base in Britannia, he just needs to find it given how well respected Marianne was in the motherland.

Down the road Lelouch is going to need some more britannians than just Diethardt in order to make his Order much more dangerous (If it includes members from all 3 superpowers, how much potential do you think they'll be in that?)
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:21   Link #1214
Dann of Thursday
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Good point though we don't know what the deal with Marianne is.

I suppose that may very well be true, but it would take some big example to make them realize that.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:21   Link #1215
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Not to mention Dumbass of the Black Knights deciding to shoot up the student council for no real reason beyond being pissed at Suzaku. Suzaku probably deserved it but the other guys didn't do any wrong. They were just civilians. They (the Black Knights that is) didn't look very just there. In fact Suzaku and his pals looked pretty damn heroic in that scene. Kinda threw everything out of perspective.

Imagine if Nunally had been there and he managed to shoot them after all. Lelouch would have been thrilled I'm sure.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:27   Link #1216
ashlay
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Not to mention Dumbass of the Black Knights deciding to shoot up the student council for no real reason beyond being pissed at Suzaku. Suzaku probably deserved it but the other guys didn't do any wrong. They were just civilians. They (the Black Knights that is) didn't look very just there. In fact Suzaku and his pals looked pretty damn heroic in that scene. Kinda threw everything out of perspective.

Imagine if Nunally had been there and he managed to shoot them after all. Lelouch would have been thrilled I'm sure.
I always have that little fear that Lelouch is going to shoot Tamaki in the head for doing something really dumb one of these days.

But I think things will turn out okay, they've got good leaders like Ougi, Toudou and Kaguya even when Lelouch isn't around to try and keep things in order. As long as there's good people out there and a good philosophy, they'll be able to resolve situations like in the Third Reason sound drama with Lelouch, Kallen, Suzaku and those idiot bank robbers or Episode 9 with the refrain addicts. :3
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:38   Link #1217
Dann of Thursday
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Hey look at the bright side at least they aren't discriminating towards one side and given each and everyone equal treatment.

But seriously, I have a feeling that Cornelia may play a role in further britannian defections.

Techincally speaking Lelouch "should" have some sort of loyalty base in Britannia, he just needs to find it given how well respected Marianne was in the motherland.

Down the road Lelouch is going to need some more britannians than just Diethardt in order to make his Order much more dangerous (If it includes members from all 3 superpowers, how much potential do you think they'll be in that?)
The Emperor seems to only think those that are useful to him deserve to live. Countries like Japan who lost have demonstrated they are not fit in to serve him though perhaps part of it is to have people like Suzaku come out of it who can prove useful to him.

What incentive is there for her to defect? Unless she learns something about Marianne or the Emperor's plan that makes her believe that she has to fight against Britannia, I would be surprised to see her actually contributing to Lelouch's cause even if it was indirectly.

I've always wondered about that actually. I always wondered if she had anyone still in Britannia who would support Lelouch because of Marianne, besides the Ashford family that is.

There is always the potential defection from someone in the Knights which would certainly help him, but I think that the Emperor would choose people he knew wouldn't do such a thing.

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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
I always have that little fear that Lelouch is going to shoot Tamaki in the head for doing something really dumb one of these days.

But I think things will turn out okay, they've got good leaders like Ougi, Toudou and Kaguya even when Lelouch isn't around to try and keep things in order. As long as there's good people out there and a good philosophy, they'll be able to resolve situations like in the Third Reason sound drama with Lelouch, Kallen, Suzaku and those idiot bank robbers or Episode 9 with the refrain addicts. :3
Maybe not shoot him, but take him by the scruff of the neck and tell him he'll shoot him if he tries anything again. I could see Ougi doing that as well.

Overall, they have good people in the high positions of the Order. I think we'll see Ougi come into his own and I could even see Ougi becoming the leader of Japan in the long run. It's idiots like Tamaki that make them look bad and they sort of represent the bad side of the Order I suppose.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:46   Link #1218
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The Emperor seems to only think those that are useful to him deserve to live. Countries like Japan who lost have demonstrated they are not fit in to serve him though perhaps part of it is to have people like Suzaku come out of it who can prove useful to him.
Well that's what the country is. Survival of the fittest. Darlton's treatment of Suzaku IMO was a perfect example. He didn't care if he was japanese but was willing to work with him because he was an excellent soldier. It's basically if you've got nothing good to offer/discuss to me don't waste my time.

Quote:
What incentive is there for her to defect? Unless she learns something about Marianne or the Emperor's plan that makes her believe that she has to fight against Britannia, I would be surprised to see her actually contributing to Lelouch's cause even if it was indirectly.
Well for starters she has been investigating the death of Marianne. Given the fact that she's gone into hiding I'm assuming it's because she wants to have the capability to freely do so without any hindrance in order to understand the situation with Lelouch. So if she finds Marianne's will or such, she may lend a helping hand but again it's a "feeling" so I could be wrong.

Quote:
I've always wondered about that actually. I always wondered if she had anyone still in Britannia who would support Lelouch because of Marianne, besides the Ashford family that is.
Well the royal family loved her then we even got Jeremiah who turns out to have been a guard in her house. The reason he went to Japan was to try to redeem himself for failing Lelouch and Nunally. The writers could always just yank other people into the fold.

Quote:
There is always the potential defection from someone in the Knights which would certainly help him, but I think that the Emperor would choose people he knew wouldn't do such a thing.
It depends. If the emperor turns out to not be the main villain, then there's a chance that some knights may break off (Because technically speaking, they are loyal to Charles not to anyone else).

The way I see it, should Charles get axed off by Schenizeil then those knights would be in danger of being killed too.
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Old 2008-03-24, 23:05   Link #1219
Dann of Thursday
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Well that's what the country is. Survival of the fittest. Darlton's treatment of Suzaku IMO was a perfect example. He didn't care if he was japanese but was willing to work with him because he was an excellent soldier. It's basically if you've got nothing good to offer/discuss to me don't waste my time.

Well for starters she has been investigating the death of Marianne. Given the fact that she's gone into hiding I'm assuming it's because she wants to have the capability to freely do so without any hindrance in order to understand the situation with Lelouch. So if she finds Marianne's will or such, she may lend a helping hand but again it's a "feeling" so I could be wrong.

Well the royal family loved her then we even got Jeremiah who turns out to have been a guard in her house. The reason he went to Japan was to try to redeem himself for failing Lelouch and Nunally. The writers could always just yank other people into the fold.

It depends. If the emperor turns out to not be the main villain, then there's a chance that some knights may break off (Because technically speaking, they are loyal to Charles not to anyone else).

The way I see it, should Charles get axed off by Schenizeil then those knights would be in danger of being killed too.
Yeah, that is completely true and part of the reason Lelouch wants to change things I guess since he doesn't believe it is right for the weak to simply be disguarded.

Well, that is certainly a possiblity I suppose. I've considered she might find something out to make her believe she needed to fight against Britannia like perhaps finding out the truth about Marianne's death. I had the same feeling from her, but there isn't much evidence right now.

Yeah, we could always see that happen though the situation would have to arise for him to establish contact. Or perhaps Cornelia could break and gather people loyal to her as well as Marianne.

The only other person I could see being a final villain is V.V.at this point and there is always the possibility we could see V.V. kill the Emperor if he no longer has any use for him. Something like that could result in the Knights aiding Lelouch.

Schneizal is certainly a possibility I suppose given that CLAMP was told to design an arch-enemy with him. It just seems out there for it to happen in the show when we saw how powerful the Emperor seems to be and how much he knows.
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Old 2008-03-24, 23:42   Link #1220
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I guess it comes down to what exactly the final problem is.

If the Emperor has some kind of evil plan to kill everyone weak in the world or something like that then I'm sure alot of Britannian's won't exactly be thrilled with this (even some of the Knights might turn on him, they don't all seem to be the global genocide supporting kind of folk.)

Though thats a bit cliche. Well we'll have to see what happens. Suffice to say if its something that's a global scale threat we'll probably see a Black Knight/Britannia alliance. That's assuming both sides aren't almost wiped out in which case its whoever's still alive vs whatever the threat is. Likewise if its the Britannian royalty doing some selfish plot that's clearly bad for everyone including Britannian's we might see some Britannian infighting.

And Cornellia's at the top of list of Britannian's willing to help Lelouch I'd say. All her rage at Euphie's death seemed to vanish once she saw who he was and what his motivations were. She's clearly bothered by the idea that something fishy happened back then, otherwise she wouldn't have given up her spot as Gov and ran off to do whatever. She'll probably bring Guilford with her as well.
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