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Old 2008-03-24, 15:29   Link #1201
ashlay
the red string of fate
 
 
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Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
I suppose you could say it is a bit of everyone's fault really. Had Lelouch won the fight and been able to liberate Japan, this wouldn't have been much of an issue.

The thing about Lelouch is something I could see Suzaku or someone else pointing out to Lelouch.
But still, is Lelouch the one executing japanese people or making them kill each other in coliseums or putting them in bunnygirl costumes?

Britannia didn't have to demote Japan to a correctional territory, the rebellion was crushed, Zero had been dealt with, they didn't have any problems anymore. but they did it anyway, now didn't they? It's not like Japan's current fate is directly caused by the rebellion, Britannia always had the final say.

You can't blame Lelouch or the Order for something they didn't do. >_>
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Old 2008-03-24, 15:34   Link #1202
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
But still, is Lelouch the one executing japanese people or making them kill each other in coliseums or putting them in bunnygirl costumes?

Britannia didn't have to demote Japan to a correctional territory, the rebellion was crushed, Zero had been dealt with, they didn't have any problems anymore. but they did it anyway, now didn't they? It's not like Japan's current fate is directly caused by the rebellion, Britannia always had the final say.

You can't blame Lelouch or the Order for something they didn't do. >_>
If the occupying government wins over a rebellion, then tighter restrictions are expected but this is too extreme.
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Old 2008-03-24, 15:41   Link #1203
ashlay
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If the occupying government wins over a rebellion, then tighter restrictions are expected but this is too extreme.
exactly.

rulers have certain responsibilities to those they rule over, even if a portion of the ruled rebels. But of course, Britannia has proved time and time again (massacre, massacre, massacre, slavery, massacre) that they shouldn't be ruling.

The Britannian government simply does whatever they feel like. you can't blame the rebellion for doing what they're supposed to do when their rulers are unfit to govern due to the fact they're killing the ruled indiscriminately to get rid of just one or two people. 0_o
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Old 2008-03-24, 15:54   Link #1204
Var
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
You can't blame Lelouch or the Order for something they didn't do.
You can blame them, since they broke the 'peace' and started everything. I'm not saying it is right to do it, but you can.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:01   Link #1205
ashlay
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You can blame them, since they broke the 'peace' and started everything. I'm not saying it is right to do it, but you can.
peace is not "you 12 people stole my green haired immortal test subject, so I am going to kill everyone in this area so no one can every rat me out for having her." and "To eliminate Lelouch and C.C., we're going to kill every last person left in this building, and then blame it on the terrorists."

Britannia is no better than the "terrorists" that Ougi and co. were before they came under Lelouch. Rulers are only rulers because there's certain standards they adhere to that others don't, such as don't target unrelated civilians. Without that, Britannia has absolutely nothing over the Order (they're in fact probably lower, since the Order doesn't target civilians), and it just becomes and endless cycle of "who was the one who caused all this? Britannia, who made Japan a correctional district? The Order, for rebelling? Or was it Britannia who conquered the country and took away the Japanese people's rights in the first place? etc., etc."
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Last edited by ashlay; 2008-03-24 at 16:30.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:11   Link #1206
Var
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peace is not "you 12 people stole my green haired immortal test subject, so I am going to kill everyone in this area so no one can every rat me out for having her." and "To eliminate Lelouch and C.C., we're going to kill every last person left in this building, and then blame it on the terrorists."

Britannia is no better than the "terrorists" that Ougi and co. were before they came under Lelouch. Rulers are only rulers because there's certain standards they stand to that others don't, such as don't target unrelated civilians. Without that, Britannia has absolutely nothing over the Order (they're in fact probably lower, since the Order doesn't target civilians), and it just becomes and endless cycle of "who was the one who caused all this? Britannia, who made Japan a correctional district? The Order, for rebelling? Or was it Britannia who conquered the country and took away the Japanese people's rights in the first place? etc., etc."
I said 'peace', as in fake peace, but peace that some civilians can find hope in. That is where most of the blame probably comes from. Even if they lived in constant fear there was some semblance of peace as long as no one did anything against Britannia.

Even your examples show how everything could be blamed on OB and Zero. They broke the peace, people will blame them for it.

The Order kills civilians, just not intentionally but they do.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:23   Link #1207
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I said 'peace', as in fake peace, but peace that some civilians can find hope in. That is where most of the blame probably comes from. Even if they lived in constant fear there was some semblance of peace as long as no one did anything against Britannia.

Even your examples show how everything could be blamed on OB and Zero. They broke the peace, people will blame them for it.

The Order kills civilians, just not intentionally but they do.
No way your putting this all on the Order. Britannia's massacres should be reason enough to stop any kind of argument against the Order.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:24   Link #1208
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No way your putting this all on the Order. Britannia's massacres should be reason enough to stop any kind of argument against the Order.
I'm not. Honest. I'm just saying that the Order can, and will, be blamed for what happened.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:33   Link #1209
ashlay
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Even your examples show how everything could be blamed on OB and Zero. They broke the peace, people will blame them for it.

The Order kills civilians, just not intentionally but they do.
But that is a pretty long stretch. I mean people in the show might believe it, but we can see that the Order's actions aren't anywhere bad enough for Britannia to do the sort of things they've done. 0_o

And I just said target civilians, I never said kill civilians. uninvolved people will always die in wars, but there is a difference between collateral damage and outright massacre.

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I'm not. Honest. I'm just saying that the Order can, and will, be blamed for what happened.
not like they were winning that many friends in Britannia anyway.
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Old 2008-03-24, 16:37   Link #1210
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Yeah, you can't deny that Britannia has probably started some whole thing against the Order to make sure they don't get support anymore by saying the restrictions on Japan are due to what the Order did.
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Old 2008-03-24, 17:07   Link #1211
ashlay
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Yeah, you can't deny that Britannia has probably started some whole thing against the Order to make sure they don't get support anymore by saying the restrictions on Japan are due to what the Order did.
or they really just don't care what Carares does the place.

well, same difference I guess.
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Old 2008-03-24, 17:17   Link #1212
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I'm not. Honest. I'm just saying that the Order can, and will, be blamed for what happened.
Be blamed, yeah, but by now the Japanese have seen enough cruelty by Britannia that anything they say is going to be questioned.
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Old 2008-03-24, 19:15   Link #1213
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Be blamed, yeah, but by now the Japanese have seen enough cruelty by Britannia that anything they say is going to be questioned.
That's true, I was just pointing out the fact.

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But that is a pretty long stretch. I mean people in the show might believe it, but we can see that the Order's actions aren't anywhere bad enough for Britannia to do the sort of things they've done. 0_o

And I just said target civilians, I never said kill civilians. uninvolved people will always die in wars, but there is a difference between collateral damage and outright massacre.


not like they were winning that many friends in Britannia anyway.
Ahh sorry I misinterpreted what you had written, I thought you meant just kill civilians which both sides do. Apologize.

Well. Now they definately have no friends in Britannia :P Though, actually, I'd say alot of younger people may have 'supported' or found interest in the OB. Younger people are known to be more rebelious and we even see in Ashford how the OB is discussed between students. Given that by the end of S1 OB was feared by them.
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Old 2008-03-24, 21:44   Link #1214
Dann of Thursday
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It's true that we saw people like Rivalz think they were cool, but that pretty much changed when Shirley had her father get killed. As soon as they had a reason to fear and not like them, they took it.

There is also the fact that they are led by a man in a mask whose trust could be considered questionable by some. I remember one Bokura no Hibiki that had Shirley saying she thought about supporting them like some people did, but thought Zero looked untrustworthy and that he could stab you in the back.
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Old 2008-03-24, 21:56   Link #1215
ashlay
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It's true that we saw people like Rivalz think they were cool, but that pretty much changed when Shirley had her father get killed. As soon as they had a reason to fear and not like them, they took it.

There is also the fact that they are led by a man in a mask whose trust could be considered questionable by some. I remember one Bokura no Hibiki that had Shirley saying she thought about supporting them like some people did, but thought Zero looked untrustworthy and that he could stab you in the back.
not like it would take much for them to be afraid of Britannia though. One screw up by Carares and their fragile little worlds would be turned upside down.

Funny that Shirley ended up being the one who shot someone in the back, not Lulu.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:03   Link #1216
Dann of Thursday
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Well, they are Britannians. What do they have to worry about besides the Order showing up again and perhaps causing a rebellion? How did Lelouch plan on keeping a hold of everything? I'd expect the Japanese to hurt a lot of Britannians whether they deserved it or not. Look at what happened to Viletta.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:14   Link #1217
ashlay
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Well, they are Britannians. What do they have to worry about besides the Order showing up again and perhaps causing a rebellion? How did Lelouch plan on keeping a hold of everything? I'd expect the Japanese to hurt a lot of Britannians whether they deserved it or not. Look at what happened to Viletta.
tell that to the Black King and all those other dead Britannians in the Tower of Babel. Tell that to Bartley. Tell that to Marianne.

Point is, Britannians aren't really safe with anyone, especially their government. And when they realize it, there may be more defections to the Order than nutjobs (lovable nutjobs) like Diethard.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:19   Link #1218
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
tell that to the Black King and all those other dead Britannians in the Tower of Babel. Tell that to Bartley. Tell that to Marianne.

Point is, Britannians aren't really safe with anyone, especially their government. And when they realize it, there may be more defections to the Order than nutjobs (lovable nutjobs) like Diethard.
Hey look at the bright side at least they aren't discriminating towards one side and given each and everyone equal treatment.

But seriously, I have a feeling that Cornelia may play a role in further britannian defections.

Techincally speaking Lelouch "should" have some sort of loyalty base in Britannia, he just needs to find it given how well respected Marianne was in the motherland.

Down the road Lelouch is going to need some more britannians than just Diethardt in order to make his Order much more dangerous (If it includes members from all 3 superpowers, how much potential do you think they'll be in that?)
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:21   Link #1219
Dann of Thursday
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Good point though we don't know what the deal with Marianne is.

I suppose that may very well be true, but it would take some big example to make them realize that.
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Old 2008-03-24, 22:21   Link #1220
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Not to mention Dumbass of the Black Knights deciding to shoot up the student council for no real reason beyond being pissed at Suzaku. Suzaku probably deserved it but the other guys didn't do any wrong. They were just civilians. They (the Black Knights that is) didn't look very just there. In fact Suzaku and his pals looked pretty damn heroic in that scene. Kinda threw everything out of perspective.

Imagine if Nunally had been there and he managed to shoot them after all. Lelouch would have been thrilled I'm sure.
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