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Old 2006-11-29, 01:27   Link #1
Zero Shinohara
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Movie: Turistas.

Okay, let's see if I can do this without triggering a long-lasting flame wars between people of different races, ethnicities and beliefs. I will, however, try to express my point in an effective and politically/geographically correct manner.

Alright, shall we get this started?

"Turistas" is a new movie scheduled to start playing on American teathers in December first, published by FoxAtomic. The movie starts with American tourists traveling to Brazil to enjoy themselves in a rule-less environment, where anything goes, whenever and anywhere. However, they end up finding themselves in an horrifying situation when their documents, clothes, passports and money get stolen, and they get stranded in a deserted, hostile location. They are then tormented, tortured and slaughtered, with all the great visual goodies of the recent horror movies ( Saw, Grudge, Hostel, and so on. ), like flying limbs, "blood guts and glory", as an infamous CATV advertisement goes by.

Up to this point, it just looks like another one of yours truly "Summer Flick", only released in December to avoid the high competition it would encounter during the summer. However, I was "shocked" at how this movie was received by the Brazilian community. The reason I used quotes there is because there was absolutely no shock at all - I already expected comments to be as rough as all the other ones directed to every and any criticism made by any of "Brazil's enemies" ( Just about everybody else besides Cuba and France, in my opinion ). Also, just to make it clear, I AM Brazilian myself, though I have been living in the US for the past three years. I am legal and also a citizen, if any of that matters. I am also very well aware of the political, social and economical status of the country, and how things are going from bad to worse second after second. With that being said, here the discussion starts.

For years, the culture and values of Brazilian society have been assaulted with each and every tool avaiable - news, magazines, politics, music and the popular mouth-to-mouth. The result of that is a culture that, for the major part, fails to see the problems around them, and rather focuses on others'. Even though there were 36 million people living below poverty line a few years ago, the difference of media coverage of that to the War in Iraq is imeasurable. Even though millions are going hungry inside our own borders, we insist in prioritizing aid to African countries, thousands of miles away. ( I am NOT saying we shouldn't help with relief efforts in countries in need, though, note this. ) What I see happening is the complete denial that anything is wrong - the government is great, the economy is great, education is great, security is great, everything is great. Rather, people are choosing to look wherever they can to point their fingers at - The US, Europe and whomever seems like a good choice to pick on. Because of that, people are getting the wrong idea about the world, and minute by minute, our society is turning itself to be a huge uneducated, blindly nationalistic mass of people with an unidentified form. I'm not generalizing, of course, however, this is the majority.

"What's the point of all this?" you might be asking yourself. Well, I just saw this Trailer, uploaded on Youtube, for this particular movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHU9qycVL9g
Now, take a look at the comments. If you can't read portuguese, it's not a problem, some of them were already posted in engrish, so everyone could get a little glimpse of what's coming.

If you ever asked yourself why something is thought of as being 100% great, or absolute crap, it is called misinformation. The manipulation of reality is right here, there and all around us, but it takes a special eye to catch it and work yourself out of it, leaving the sea of brainless amebas who find it much easier just to absorve whatever is thrown at them.

I do have to agree, though, that the movie might be a little too much, but one small thing people seem to have missed is that fact that this is a work of fiction, based on geopolitical and social aspects, but a work of fiction. However, people are going around insinuating this "is an insult to our country", that this is "the summit of Hollywoodian( American perhaps? ) ignorance ", that every actor and part of the crew that made this movie should be killed and hung upside down, then beaten with sticks until their pieces fall appart.

Ah, there's also that little issue that has happened with The Simpsons before: "It will hurt tourism to Brazil!", because it shows in an explicit way the odd reality that, isn't the common, but that is present in our society. You guys might remember the episode where Homer Simpson and his family go visit Brazil, and right after boarding a cab, the driver pulls a gun and kidnaps him. People might think that will hurt tourism... but let me tell you something, guys: They, are hurting themselves and putting the blame on others, regarding either this movie or that particular Simpsons episode, that was even censored and prohibited to be shown. Why is that? Well, because it is actually very common that people get kidnapped in there. It's actually more common than any of you, who live in developed and better countries, could possibly imagine. Not only that, but the ammount of drugs that go in and out of the country, the ridiculous ammount of cases of corruption in the police, army and especially in the government - and I'm not talking about some congressman who e-mails former Pages, I am talking about people who steal millions of taxpayers' money, are never convicted, and just get re-elected over and over.

Ah, the Natalee Holloway case, I'm glad I remembered this. If you don't know about it, she was a girl that simply vanished without traces in Aruba, during the summer of 2005 during her graduation trip. There has been a lot of speculation on what happened, but at this momment, no one is sure on who the criminal is, and even if the suspects did it. After this case was brought over and over in probably every single News channel in the US, the government of Aruba started ranting about how this would affect tourism into their island, this and that. I believe that the reason the US and US officials were outraged is that Aruba just wouldn't cooperate - the FBI couldn't get in and do their investigations, the father of one of the involved teens was a well connected judge and was doing his best to cover for his son and his friends, among many other issues. But this case also helped bring up some other cases of crimes that were commited aboard ships taking tourists through the Caribbean, so this is not a once-in-a-lifetime happening. Well, a year after and no one hears their rants anymore, just like no one hears rants in Brazil about the Simpsons anymore. The only this helps with is to increase the anti-american feeling that's already strong in those countries.

To finish this up, I'd just like say that I hope this widens the eyes of some, that I am willing to remove this thread if anyone finds it offensive, and that I'd like you to answer these questions:

Would you consider not traveling to Brazil after seeing this movie, or the Simpsons episode? Would you consider not going to Texas anymore after the Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie? Or even to Japan, after seeing the Grudge?
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Old 2006-11-29, 01:48   Link #2
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Common misinterperation is the source of all unban legend. The media always twist the trust in a way to better please themselves. Infomations are always left out in every single report. Now of course, if we had all the facts in every situation, there would be no story, cause there would be nothing to discuss about, but maybe the reasons why it happened.

I don't think it will hurt the tourist industry in Brazil or other South Amiercan countries. It will be givem second thoughts, but I think many people would consider it as another horror flick and brush off the hollywood stories. If it was something like 9/11, that would effect tourism. (remember after the 9/11, tourism stopped almost to 100% in the Middle East, because of mass hysteria.) Now of course it's totally unfair to treat people differently because of the name it's given thru media.

But I don't know i'll go see it. I'll wait till it comes on Stars or HBO ^_^.
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Old 2006-11-29, 08:35   Link #3
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Quote:
Common misinterperation is the source of all unban legend. The media always twist the trust in a way to better please themselves. Infomations are always left out in every single report. Now of course, if we had all the facts in every situation, there would be no story, cause there would be nothing to discuss about, but maybe the reasons why it happened.
That's true, however, one thing is a little distortion here and there to gain a few more viewers, and the other one is having the intent to fire up people's emotions in order to achieve a particular goal, be that religious, political or ideological. It's a snowball effect: it might affect only a few at the beginning, but as the word spreads out, more and more people get the same distorted opinion, which just spreads out faster and more widely.

Quote:
I don't think it will hurt the tourist industry in Brazil or other South Amiercan countries. It will be givem second thoughts, but I think many people would consider it as another horror flick and brush off the hollywood stories. If it was something like 9/11, that would effect tourism. (remember after the 9/11, tourism stopped almost to 100% in the Middle East, because of mass hysteria.) Now of course it's totally unfair to treat people differently because of the name it's given thru media.
Well, I agree, I don't think that the movie itself will affect the tourism industry anywhere. The only thing that affects tourism is the situation of that country itself, along with having the proper infra-structure to deal with the tourist public. Some of these countries do not, and people who visit them are as in much danger as anyone else. A robber, a kidnapper or a suicide bomber won't stop what he's doing if you show him a foreign Visa and say you have nothing to do with that country.

In the case of 9/11, I'd say that the hysteria caused by it was even less than it should've been, but that`s my opinion only.
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Old 2006-11-29, 10:29   Link #4
Jinto
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There is a german saying: "Getroffene Hunde bellen." it translates best to "If the shoe fits, wear it". I suppose many of the people who posted a very negative comment on youtube are aware of the true situation, its just not as bad as shown in the movie. Yet that movie reminds them of something that is not quite right, and that steals them the fluffy feeling of security/control that only ignorance can give them. (it is a well known fact outside Brazil that all that glistens is not gold there. Especially the safety issues became blatantly evident with the Porto Velho incident or worse the Sao Paulo incident). Brazils mafia demonstrates on a regular basis how mighty it is... think about 'Primeiro Comando da Capital'. I'ld say thats a byproduct of marked differences in living standards (the differences are huge imo).
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Old 2006-11-29, 10:48   Link #5
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So you say that it is really true? If I go to Brazil a lot of hotties will kidnap me? I'm in!!!!!!
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Old 2006-11-29, 13:09   Link #6
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That's how it always is. People conclude their thoughts by only reading 1 side of the story and that's all the informaiton that obtain and they think it's correct and stick to that thought of theirs. There's always like 3 side to the story, the one who causes it the one who was affected by it and the ones who saw it. If you add the ones who watch the movie on youtube and post ridiclous crap about personal opinion, then there's a 4th side.

Ps: Ahh finally the movie link is working. It seems intresting. It's more like a surival story rather than a horror ^_^. Surivial stories are like mysteries.
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Old 2006-11-29, 14:47   Link #7
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I think the Brazilians are being very immature about this. They're going all "Our country is nothing like that! Fuck America!". Don't they understand that this is just a MOVIE?! Really, it's not some kinda documentary or something, it's FICTION!
I've always had the opinion that "[Most] Brazilians are idiots". The reason I started to think like that was from my time playing Warcraft 3. Brazilians playing on battle.net are jerks. They are rude, throw insults, kick everyone etc etc. I've only seen about 6-7 nice Brazilians in my lifetime. The rest have been total jerks.
This only strengthens my hate against the Brazilians. Seriously, they should grow up.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, but I probably will.
On another note, Zero Shinohara seems to be one of those "nice" Brazilians.
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Old 2006-11-29, 16:09   Link #8
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Note: I had another huge post to illustrate more and more some of the thoughts I wanted to convey, but I lost it because my laptop is acting up very badly.

Quote:
There is a german saying: "Getroffene Hunde bellen." it translates best to "If the shoe fits, wear it". I suppose many of the people who posted a very negative comment on youtube are aware of the true situation, its just not as bad as shown in the movie. Yet that movie reminds them of something that is not quite right, and that steals them the fluffy feeling of security/control that only ignorance can give them. (it is a well known fact outside Brazil that all that glistens is not gold there. Especially the safety issues became blatantly evident with the Porto Velho incident or worse the Sao Paulo incident). Brazils mafia demonstrates on a regular basis how mighty it is... think about 'Primeiro Comando da Capital'. I'ld say thats a byproduct of marked differences in living standards (the differences are huge imo).
You're right on that. "If the shoe fits, wear it", but if it causes you pain, don't go to the manufacturer or the dealer and tell them it's their fault. If it's painful to wear that shoe, then use another one. However, it seems like people find it much easier to just endure the pain and keep the shoes on, insisting that it's the "cursed manufacturer"'s fault.

And of course, but remember that this is a horror/thriller movie, so it's main intention is to freak you out and to portray things the most horrifying way they possibly can. It will be visually explicit and terrorizing, but that's what horror movies are for. However, I wouldn't say that the situation is not as bad as the movie portrays, as there are actually groups who kill/kidnap people to sell their organs in the black market. That's not news to anyone, I'd guess ( In fact, there are rumors that in China there are concentration camps especially designed to extract the organs of its prisioners and sell them in the black market. Things like that aren't common in Brazil, though, but they're not that common in any part of the world, I must say.

But the security issue in that country is vast, and like you said ( seems like you have a good understanding of the situtation there ), the mafia (more like a terrorist-drug dealing mafia, if you may ) is doing what it wants, where and when it wants. It has more political and firepower than the police, the local and federal governments. But again, the government is corrupt, and they use the fact that brazilians forget about things very easly to simply sit back, talk lots, do nothing. If they really wanted to do something, they would send in the national guard, arrest, dismantle and kill every one of those organizations and start helping the country get back on its feet. But again, that same government has worked their butts off to put the military in a position where they can't even FEED the recruits that are drafted into the army ( yes, there is an obligatory draft for everyone 18 and above there. They do need people to clean the bathrooms, you know. Things just don't look promising.

And just so you have an idea of how bad it is, statistics show that over 38 thousand people die by firearms in the country every year. That's 12 times the number of american soldiers killed in Iraq in three years, and 20 thousand short of the ones who died in Vietnam in 10. The reason why they haven't declared a civil war yet is because by doing so, they would stop getting IMF money and wouldn't be able to pass the ever-ridiculous legislation that only grows in there.

Quote:
So you say that it is really true? If I go to Brazil a lot of hotties will kidnap me? I'm in!!!!!!
Well, if you're willing to risk your life on that, good luck. There are a lot of hot women down there who would kidnap you, but I'm sure they wouldn't do what you wanted them to do. As another example, here's what was found a few weeks ago in a city in the southeastern area of the country.

An american man went to Brazil to visit his "girlfriend", whom he met over the internet a few years in the past. Their relationship was well, and he even sent her tens of thousands of dollars, bought her a nice sports car and a home. He arrived at the airport and was received by her, everything went well and they went home. To his surprise, her husband was waiting inside the house with whatever they used to knock him down. He was then killed, sliced into tiny pieces and burnt to ashes, and then thrown in the trash. They then removed every single penny they could from all his bank accounts, and went unnoticed, until the family and friends of the man started to get worried and ended up finding everything that happened. This is not the first time something happens, and it won't be the last. It's an isolated case, but it's not that hard to occur.

Quote:
That's how it always is. People conclude their thoughts by only reading 1 side of the story and that's all the informaiton that obtain and they think it's correct and stick to that thought of theirs. There's always like 3 side to the story, the one who causes it the one who was affected by it and the ones who saw it. If you add the ones who watch the movie on youtube and post ridiclous crap about personal opinion, then there's a 4th side.
True, people are like that. They normally take sides with whichever opinion fits their interests and boasts their inner ignorance to its peak - they don't accept anything else and you should be killed for thinking differently, is what they think.
However, when people disseminate ideas that are not true just to fit their interest, it should be considered a crime, especially in a place where it happens so often. There's not a single media outlet in that country that shows facts like they really are, and there are no competing opinions. In the US, you have Fox, a conservative channel, MSNBC, a known liberal channel, and other ones to make your own decisions upon what you hear and see. In there, if a reporter or journalist goes over the edge on criticism against the government and the instituted dogmas of the ignorant, he is thrown out. Boris Casoy and Olavo de Carvalho are examples of that - people who were kicked out of their jobs for stepping on the government's toe for too long. And that is the reason why people can't think with their heads, and the result of that is the majority of comments you saw on that Youtube page.

It's always the "blame americans for everything", "blame the rich", "blame capitalism" mindset that has been preached since the 60's in many latin-american countries, including Brazil.

Another little example is te case of flight 1906 that crashed in October, killing all 153 people aboard. What happened is that an american business jet, a Legacy, hit the 737 and brought it down, while the Legacy itself managed to land without casualties. Being piloted by two americans, the Legacy was quickly seized, the two americans arrested, their passports confiscated and they are still in prison, waiting to be freed. The accident was just a few days away from the presidential elections this year, and no one wanted to say anything about it, so the media and the authorities covered the facts and even threw away the "ridiculous" possibility that the accident happened because an air-traffic controller mistakenly told the Legacy to fly at 37 thousand feet, the same altitude the other tower had told the 737 to fly at. No, that was an insult, "Our airspace is one of the safest and better managed in the world", a spokesperson said. Instead of going for a logical investigation on the case, the first word was that the pilots of the Legacy jet had "purposedly" turned their Transponder off, a device that signals to other planes and the tower to avoid colisions. It didn't take long for everyone to be spitting that the americans were killers, that they should've been the ones who had died, this and that. Well, it turns out that not one week after the elections, the brazilian airtraffic system crashed badly. Planes were delaying an average of 6 hours, flights were cancelled, people were piling up on the airports and no one knew why. Up to a point were the people stuck in the airports said "Enough" and started raiding jetliners' booths, beaking door glasses and rioting from the inside of the airports out. As of now, the situation is still pretty bad, and no one has a solution for it. What I find amazing is that after they collided, a NY Times reporter, Joe Sharkey, who was in the Legacy doing research on the brazilian airspace dared to say "This airspace is a mess. Their infra-structure is old, they're not apt to be receiving all these flights and flight controllers are overwhelmed with work and not being paid nearly enough for that.". He almost got crucified for this, stating afterwards that "Those people treated us like Capitalist murders, who threw our plane against the 737 with the sole desire to kill all of them". Well, you see how he was right, and everyone was wrong. After the investigations and this issue in the airspace, the pilots are being released in December.

Quote:
I think the Brazilians are being very immature about this. They're going all "Our country is nothing like that! Fuck America!". Don't they understand that this is just a MOVIE?! Really, it's not some kinda documentary or something, it's FICTION!
I've always had the opinion that "[Most] Brazilians are idiots". The reason I started to think like that was from my time playing Warcraft 3. Brazilians playing on battle.net are jerks. They are rude, throw insults, kick everyone etc etc. I've only seen about 6-7 nice Brazilians in my lifetime. The rest have been total jerks.
This only strengthens my hate against the Brazilians. Seriously, they should grow up.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this, but I probably will.
On another note, Zero Shinohara seems to be one of those "nice" Brazilians.
Hah, thanks for that. I do try to be a nice guy, understand other people's opinions and try having conversations like a civilized person. But as you know, not many people in there share those same views with me.

And I understand 100% what you said up there, and I agree with you with that same percentage. Just like the brazilians, people from other similar countries act like savages over the internet. To them, there's no such thing as politeness, education or fair-play - it seems like everyone that doesn't speak their language, like what they like, say what they say, are their declared arch-enemies, whom they must torture and kill. If you go to any MMORPG, discussion board or chatroom and see a brazilian, he will either:
1) Tell you to fuck yourself
2) Say americans suck and they all should die, along with everyone from countries more successful than his
3) Speak like he's a troglodite who has never heard of words like "please" or "thank you"
4) Kill you on the spot, call you a noob and run around laughing, even if he's 50 levels higher than you
5) Actually be a nice, understanding person whom you can talk and articulate with.

Because every country always has its own stupid, ignorant people, but some more than others. I confirm what you're saying there, that's very hard to find reasonable people to be friends with, especially if you are a reasonable person yourself.

I, myself, struggle sometimes in the old chatrooms I used to visit, where even as a 13 year-old, we used to have smart discussions and respect eachother. Nowadays, you can't even say "Hi" to some of those without being insulted for the next two and a half hours. There are exceptions here and there, but they are rare, as anyone who has ever played a game/visited a board with people like that.

Immaturity runs high on those people, and I, too, just wish they would grow up.
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Old 2006-11-29, 18:25   Link #9
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I’m not sure what you are attacking here: teenagers that are too stupid or overnationalistic people? Or are you acknowledging the problems of your former country and trying to help or find an answer (which it seems you think you already have)?

Sometimes you can be embarrassed about your countryman, even I am. But Sweden is a small country, so exposure to us is not so evident.
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Old 2006-11-29, 20:09   Link #10
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Quote:
I’m not sure what you are attacking here: teenagers that are too stupid or overnationalistic people? Or are you acknowledging the problems of your former country and trying to help or find an answer (which it seems you think you already have)?

Sometimes you can be embarrassed about your countryman, even I am. But Sweden is a small country, so exposure to us is not so evident.
Well, let's first draw a borderline between being nationalistic and proud of your country and being the blind dog of a failed doctrine. What happens is that it's not just the teenagers that are stupid, even grown men and women, scholars, professors and self-proclaimed intelecuals are acting and responding on the same way - maybe with more insightful mumbo-jumbo, but with the same type of brainless copy-and-paste-it-off-the-news b.s. I've read a book once about Communism, and there was a passage that never got out of my mind: "Communists often blamed others for their own atrocities, sometimes making things up so perfectly that even they themselves would believe in the fallacy. Nowadays, many still use that as a tool working to fulfill two known purposes of the communist agenda: cope with your disgraces and bash capitalism". And then he gives a few examples of that, including one instance of mass-murdering of people during World War II, blaming Hitler and the Nazis for the massacre, when years later, they themselves revealed the truth. I won't go into many details, discuss why capitalism is better than communism or vice versa, as this is mainly a matter of personal opinion.

However, the strategy is the same: never assume responsibility for your own mistakes. A good example of that is the Flight 1907 I just mentioned in my last post, and so forth and so on.

If you ask me if I aknowledge the problems of that country, I'll say that yes, I do. However, many people might say that it's the government, or the economy, the rich ( "burguesy" ). I, however, will say that it's the people. Know a say that goes like "A government is as good as the people who elect it"? Well, I think that's absolutely true. Because people themselves don't stand up for what they want, they get submissive and turn out to be just just like those people who are xenofobes and hate other cultures, like the idiots in Youtube.

And no, I don't think I have the answers to all the problems, nor am I arrogant enough to think I could solve things in a flash. I do think, however, that people should start opening their eyes and extending their horizons to things that WORK. For example, a high morality and values worked for the major part in the US, a former colony just like Brazil. A combination of social benefits and conservative economy has been the turning point to some former agressively socialist countries ( Sweden is one of them, I hear. If I'm wrong, correct me please ). However, when you have CLOWNS ( and I do mean real Clowns, using make-up, wigs and huge red shoes [check this: http://www.flogao.com/usabilidoido/foto/14/1508933 ] ) trying to be elected to be representatives and congressmen, over 60 corruption-related incidents in the past four years, a president that's a puppet of Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and a population that seems to be OK with all of that, things just don't look promissing.

So yes, you might think of me as a small-scale crusader, trying to take down persian stronghold all by myself, but conscientizing people is much like recycling: You do your part, your neighbor does his, his neighbor starts doing it too, word spreads out, it becomes a tax-cut, then it becomes a law, then it becomes a part of your everyday life. And it does make a difference.
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Old 2006-11-29, 23:32   Link #11
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It's not going to affect anything, just another cheap budget Hollywood movie. Looks pretty stupid to me, I'm not going to see it. It's a kids film.
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Old 2006-11-30, 00:00   Link #12
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Lol, those comments are hilarious. I like how everyone in america gathered together to create this anti-brazilian movie. I think I remember voting for it alongside Arnold.
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Old 2006-11-30, 10:17   Link #13
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Lol, those comments are hilarious. I like how everyone in america gathered together to create this anti-brazilian movie. I think I remember voting for it alongside Arnold.

Now I'm insterested in that story :P Mind sharing it with us?

The number of anti-american movies, series, TV novels and books produced in Brazil in a year os probably more than double the ones produced in the US against that same country, and yet people thing that we're the ones criticizing them. It's a pity, isn't it?

I'll get more on this later, but now I need to go to school.
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Old 2006-11-30, 13:04   Link #14
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Just be carefull in your crusade against closed mindedness of your people, to not become closed minded. I mean from another direction. Media in the US tends to be one-sided too at times (i.e. even the so called liberal MSNBC had a long way from the pro Bush pro iraq war attitude to the sceptic attitude they have now - good journalism should have shown there is no winwin strategy in iraq, but thats just another point that scares me, because US media seems to be especially brainless at times - especially if there is a call to patriotism - imo a call for patriotism should not mean to switch the brains off nationwide - I know I lump together each and every US/north american now, and thats not right - but too many follow the patriotism shit too willingly imo)

Last edited by Jinto; 2006-11-30 at 13:50.
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Old 2006-12-01, 07:29   Link #15
Toxic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loniat View Post
I’m not sure what you are attacking here: teenagers that are too stupid or overnationalistic people? Or are you acknowledging the problems of your former country and trying to help or find an answer (which it seems you think you already have)?

Sometimes you can be embarrassed about your countryman, even I am. But Sweden is a small country, so exposure to us is not so evident.
I'm from Sweden myself, and I can agree with you. Alot of Swedes are just dumb... they usually don't go out and call people fags for no reason though.

In response to Zero's response to my response: (Heh)

I totally agree with you. That's EXACTLY the way I've experienced it. You find some guy here and there who's nice, but most are just complete assholes.
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Old 2006-12-02, 02:21   Link #16
Zero Shinohara
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Quote:
Just be carefull in your crusade against closed mindedness of your people, to not become closed minded. I mean from another direction. Media in the US tends to be one-sided too at times (i.e. even the so called liberal MSNBC had a long way from the pro Bush pro iraq war attitude to the sceptic attitude they have now - good journalism should have shown there is no winwin strategy in iraq, but thats just another point that scares me, because US media seems to be especially brainless at times - especially if there is a call to patriotism - imo a call for patriotism should not mean to switch the brains off nationwide - I know I lump together each and every US/north american now, and thats not right - but too many follow the patriotism shit too willingly imo)

Well, I just used the term crusade in there to be funny, since I'm not declaring war against those people, because it's wise not to face against a platoon of tanks in your sister's monocycle. But you're right, sometimes, in trying to avoid closed-mindedness, you become closed minded yourself. And during the Invasion of Iraq, even some democrats and liberals were calling for the war, even John Kerry said that Saddam was a threat and should be removed, and there was a large support by the media. But then, things cooled down and now things are how they are.

But those were different times, not two years after 09/11, so I would think it's natural that even the liberal media would support a war that would eventually protect the country. But now, things are how they are.

However, in the US, the media isn't controlled by the government, directly or indirectly. And you have your choice over what to watch, whereas in some other countries, each and every TV channel has the same oppinion, show the same news, make the same comments. Not only that, but the media has also been playing a huge part on the process of brainwashing people ( everywhere in the world, including in the US ) and turning them into the kinds of idiots who don't even have a clue of who Condollezza Rice is. ( True story, this is my mom's colleague, who knew every single participant in the American Idol show, but had never even heard about the US Secretary of State. And the further we go in this hole, the deeper it gets, so I guess we should call it quits for now.

And about patriotism... well, there are people who blindly follow their country in every choice it makes, that's true, and that's also wrong. If you wish to be a patriot, or not to be one, you should know your reasons for that. In regards to my american citizenship, I am a patriot, a huge one. But I have my reasons for this, I know the things that make me like this country so much, to the point where I have already decided I will join the army and go to war if I'm needed. The same way I feel the absolute contrary as to my country of birth - The things I like about it are greatly overwhelmed by the things I don't. If someone says they are patriots without even having the critical eye to realize what might be wrong with their country, or not to be a patriot just because it's "in", those people are definetly up for some common sense lessons.

Quote:
I'm from Sweden myself, and I can agree with you. Alot of Swedes are just dumb... they usually don't go out and call people fags for no reason though.

In response to Zero's response to my response: (Heh)

I totally agree with you. That's EXACTLY the way I've experienced it. You find some guy here and there who's nice, but most are just complete assholes.
Well, that's the internet for you. I, for example, have only met great people from Sweden. Two great friends of mine, whom I met a few years ago are from there, and you guys, whom I've got the impression are the same.

So maybe our countries' ratio of asshole x nice guy is a little different?
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Old 2006-12-02, 03:50   Link #17
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
Well, I just used the term crusade in there to be funny, since I'm not declaring war against those people, because it's wise not to face against a platoon of tanks in your sister's monocycle.
There might be other options instead of warfare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
But you're right, sometimes, in trying to avoid closed-mindedness, you become closed minded yourself. And during the Invasion of Iraq, even some democrats and liberals were calling for the war, even John Kerry said that Saddam was a threat and should be removed, and there was a large support by the media. But then, things cooled down and now things are how they are.

But those were different times, not two years after 09/11, so I would think it's natural that even the liberal media would support a war that would eventually protect the country. But now, things are how they are.
Well, just because I understand the situation, doesn't make the problem any good. But if I were an US citizen and watched US television, I guess I have been a war supporter too (I don't really know, usually I am loaded with scpeticism regarding anything that comes from the governments, maybe that because governments lied to the people one too many times imo - think about all the things parties promise in election periods - I regard most ppoliticians a bunch of liars - but thats just my own impression)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
However, in the US, the media isn't controlled by the government, directly or indirectly.
Really? There is always the bond of money and might. I have the feeling e.g. FOX is very loyal to the conservative party in the US. Thanks to TV and other media politicians are very PR based people. So there is a dependency of media in politics and politics in media. Those two are not really unconnected anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
And you have your choice over what to watch, whereas in some other countries, each and every TV channel has the same oppinion, show the same news, make the same comments. Not only that, but the media has also been playing a huge part on the process of brainwashing people ( everywhere in the world, including in the US ) and turning them into the kinds of idiots who don't even have a clue of who Condollezza Rice is. ( True story, this is my mom's colleague, who knew every single participant in the American Idol show, but had never even heard about the US Secretary of State. And the further we go in this hole, the deeper it gets, so I guess we should call it quits for now.
I think so too, I agree with the stupification TV can do to people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara View Post
And about patriotism... well, there are people who blindly follow their country in every choice it makes, that's true, and that's also wrong. If you wish to be a patriot, or not to be one, you should know your reasons for that. In regards to my american citizenship, I am a patriot, a huge one. But I have my reasons for this, I know the things that make me like this country so much, to the point where I have already decided I will join the army and go to war if I'm needed. The same way I feel the absolute contrary as to my country of birth - The things I like about it are greatly overwhelmed by the things I don't. If someone says they are patriots without even having the critical eye to realize what might be wrong with their country, or not to be a patriot just because it's "in", those people are definetly up for some common sense lessons.

I am not against patriotism, if more people would think of it like you. But sadly, if several things come together (misinformation by media, patriotism, yet small interest in politics... ... I should not argue on that anymore, since it is not better where I live... makes me depressed if I think too much about it)
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Old 2006-12-02, 05:36   Link #18
Loniat
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Before going to my “factual” lines, I will say I agree with the points Jinto made.

Then, I can tell from my own experience. I met 2 Brazilians in my life, at my University. They stayed here and took some credits and it happened that we took some classes together. One was a girl from Rio and the other a guy from San Paulo.
Needless to say, when I met then some of my stereotypes were broken: the guy from San Paulo was a Brazilian-Japanese (his parents were from Japan and immigrated to Brazil), for instance. Before that I never knew that there were a big Japanese immigration there. This guy was responsible for restarting my anime “addiction” again (when I was a kid I used to see some anime but never stopped to think about it really).
To cut the story short, this two people were really really nice, and there is nothing that I could say that would classify them as (insert your expletive). We still have contact, and we are planning on going to a new years party together in Rio in the coming years with our other friends from the uni.
So, what I am telling you is that your mileage may greatly vary.

Now, it is the nature of human beings to try to protect what they hold dear to them. If someone calls something you really like a waste of time, your will get annoyed. Depending how they put it, you can get really mad. This is normal for all humans, no matter from which country they come from.
When Hollywood or whatever says Brazil is a nasty place and you should stay away from it, I am sure some people from there will get upset. They get upset with Americans because Hollywood is from USA! Coincidence? Well, think about this for a moment..

If we go in the way that Toxic pointed for example – online relations and games and whatnot. You will probably find all kinds of people in tah intarweb.
Imagine the picture of a teenager playground such as Warcraft:

Toxic: Hi! Let’s raid the dungeon together!
Jose-Brazil: U N00b! Taste my 4axxor Wand of blood lvl +50!!!!!!!!
Jose-Brazil: PWNED!!!!!!!!!
Toxic: STUPID BRAZILIAN I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

(Now rinse and repeat sometimes and you get Toxic a mortal enemy of Brazilians because of teenager angst – Please don’t get mad Toxic )
I remember the case when in WoW some people raided a “virtual funeral” for a girl that have died and was a player for their clan. Were they Brazilians?

Despite all you say, I’ve seen quite a few Brazilians in this forum. I don’t see them coming to this thread to make any fuss.

You have your background, your experiences and formed point of view. They have theirs. What gives?
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Old 2006-12-02, 12:51   Link #19
Toxic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loniat View Post
If we go in the way that Toxic pointed for example – online relations and games and whatnot. You will probably find all kinds of people in tah intarweb.
Imagine the picture of a teenager playground such as Warcraft:

Toxic: Hi! Let’s raid the dungeon together!
Jose-Brazil: U N00b! Taste my 4axxor Wand of blood lvl +50!!!!!!!!
Jose-Brazil: PWNED!!!!!!!!!
Toxic: STUPID BRAZILIAN I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

(Now rinse and repeat sometimes and you get Toxic a mortal enemy of Brazilians because of teenager angst – Please don’t get mad Toxic )
I remember the case when in WoW some people raided a “virtual funeral” for a girl that have died and was a player for their clan. Were they Brazilians?

Despite all you say, I’ve seen quite a few Brazilians in this forum. I don’t see them coming to this thread to make any fuss.

You have your background, your experiences and formed point of view. They have theirs. What gives?
You seem to think that I've only met a few Brazilians like that. You're wrong. Over 90% of all Brazilians I've met are stupid assholes who deserve to be hanged.
I do see your point though, but when most people from a certain group are acting like they're five years old and throw insults for no reason, you tend to start hating that specific group of people.
Although, as I said, there are exceptions.

On another note, I said Warcraft 3, not WoW.
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Old 2006-12-02, 13:28   Link #20
Zero Shinohara
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Quote:
Before going to my “factual” lines, I will say I agree with the points Jinto made.

Then, I can tell from my own experience. I met 2 Brazilians in my life, at my University. They stayed here and took some credits and it happened that we took some classes together. One was a girl from Rio and the other a guy from San Paulo.
Needless to say, when I met then some of my stereotypes were broken: the guy from San Paulo was a Brazilian-Japanese (his parents were from Japan and immigrated to Brazil), for instance. Before that I never knew that there were a big Japanese immigration there. This guy was responsible for restarting my anime “addiction” again (when I was a kid I used to see some anime but never stopped to think about it really).
To cut the story short, this two people were really really nice, and there is nothing that I could say that would classify them as (insert your expletive). We still have contact, and we are planning on going to a new years party together in Rio in the coming years with our other friends from the uni.
So, what I am telling you is that your mileage may greatly vary.

Now, it is the nature of human beings to try to protect what they hold dear to them. If someone calls something you really like a waste of time, your will get annoyed. Depending how they put it, you can get really mad. This is normal for all humans, no matter from which country they come from.
When Hollywood or whatever says Brazil is a nasty place and you should stay away from it, I am sure some people from there will get upset. They get upset with Americans because Hollywood is from USA! Coincidence? Well, think about this for a moment..

If we go in the way that Toxic pointed for example – online relations and games and whatnot. You will probably find all kinds of people in tah intarweb.
Imagine the picture of a teenager playground such as Warcraft:

Toxic: Hi! Let’s raid the dungeon together!
Jose-Brazil: U N00b! Taste my 4axxor Wand of blood lvl +50!!!!!!!!
Jose-Brazil: PWNED!!!!!!!!!
Toxic: STUPID BRAZILIAN I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!!

(Now rinse and repeat sometimes and you get Toxic a mortal enemy of Brazilians because of teenager angst – Please don’t get mad Toxic )
I remember the case when in WoW some people raided a “virtual funeral” for a girl that have died and was a player for their clan. Were they Brazilians?


You have your background, your experiences and formed point of view. They have theirs. What gives?
Oh sure, dude. Undoubtedly, there're good and bad people everywhere, and I'm trying to make sure I don't stereotype everyone under what I'm trying to say. Needless to say, I could also write a book about the things I hate in American society - the idiots in high school who think they're so onipotent that nothing can harm them, the dumbasses who streetrace for fun, putting theirs and other people's lives and property at risk. There're so many things that I could point out that I could just keep going and going.

And well, the thing is that everyone has their tollerance. I, like Toxic, play online games, and I bet he's played them for a while. In the beginning, you try to be nice to everyone, and not to do them what you don't want being done to yourself. However, as time goes by, you get your own defense mechanism to deal with those people. For example, I've been playing Lineage 2 for a few weeks, and I've now started doing something I've never done before, and that's deliberately PKing whomever is around me. Because if I don't, I WILL be PK'ed back. It's how the game works, of course, it's meant to be like that, but when you run for half an hour through the map to get to your leveling grounds, just to get killed and laughed at, things aren't right.

And I agree with you that when a movie or cartoon or whatever depicts a place in an untruthful way that's mainly meant to demean that country, people have the right to be upset. But when something is a fictional work, that's meant to entertain ( take your best shot on that ) people, people are just acting dumb and trying to gas the fire up. Do you really think that half of those people really think the way they're posting? I'd doubt so, and the reason for that is because some people just LOVE the mess. Same way with the recent riots in France - half of those people didn't have anything to do with the immigration and couldn't care less about the working legislation they had passed, they just wanted to burn cars and go wild. It's the same thing here, and that's my reason for being so upset.

Quote:
Despite all you say, I’ve seen quite a few Brazilians in this forum. I don’t see them coming to this thread to make any fuss.
True, I have seen them also, and I agree with you 100%, there're no idiots around here. But the thing is: Animesuki is a great community. Most of the people here are here to share a liking for anime and manga in common, and since the community is so nice, things here tend to flow much more smootlhy than in a forum that's 50/50. People who aren't understanding and can't accept other people's opinions and respond to them with stupidity get kicked out of here in no time, either by mods or by the community itself.

And yeah, none of them have come in here to make fuss or discuss about it, but I'd encourage that anyone who has ideas that diverge with mine ( like you guys, to some extent ) come and chat about it, as long as it's in a peaceful and educated manner. If those people from Youtube come by, then I'm gonna have to get really rough on them.

Quote:
You seem to think that I've only met a few Brazilians like that. You're wrong. Over 90% of all Brazilians I've met are stupid assholes who deserve to be hanged.
I do see your point though, but when most people from a certain group are acting like they're five years old and throw insults for no reason, you tend to start hating that specific group of people.
Although, as I said, there are exceptions.

On another note, I said Warcraft 3, not WoW.
Well, WoW's the same, I guess. And 90% is a number that's a bit high, but not that far away from reality. However, it also depends on the type of community you're in, you know. And I think WoW is an exception to the rule, though. Because a WoW subscription in Brazil is so expensive due to the currency exchange, and the game itself needs to be bought, there're rather few people who play the official game, and they tend to be, most of the time, working adults who've got their heads on the right place. On the other hand, because WoW is so popular, there're also bound to be little 11-13 year-olds who, like I said, think they're so powerful behind a computer screen, playing their LVL 60 Paladin whose armor was bought through Ebay with the money grandma gave'em for christmas. They can go either way - be awesome, responsible and nice players ( Like Simond, a Canadian friend of mine ), or the types of people that will offend you on the spot.

And I didn't hear about that case, but yeah, it's pretty sad. I had a similar event going on in my own Ragnarok Online server a few years ago, and we repeated the process for two consecutive years. 90% of my players were Brazilians, and things went smoothly and everyone understood what that meant and there weren't any incidents. They were your normal MMORPG players, but they were very far from hitting the "You fucking n00b" line.

So again, I'll say this as many times as it needs to be said: I'm not creating a stereotype here, I'm criticizing that stereotype with the clean vision that it's in the best interest of everyone. Say no to stupidity.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Shinohara
However, in the US, the media isn't controlled by the government, directly or indirectly.

Really? There is always the bond of money and might. I have the feeling e.g. FOX is very loyal to the conservative party in the US. Thanks to TV and other media politicians are very PR based people. So there is a dependency of media in politics and politics in media. Those two are not really unconnected anymore.
Oh, sure, I understand that 100%. Media and politics have never and will never walk different paths. However, what I meant to say is that the government has a say in whatever is said by the media in some countries. Sure in here, things are more about favors, donations and whom the chairmen of that particular channel play poker with, but you don't have the government saying to a specific channel "I want you, you and you to put this propaganda up", like happens in some countries. The Soviet Union isn't far in the past, and it was just the same thing - the government controlled what people viewed, so that they have absolutely no idea of anything else.

To illustrate that, I watch the Brazilian news channel everyday during the news shows, and when the Iraq war is brought up, the only thing that is ever shown is the NYT opinion, which, everyone knows, is far-left oriented. In fact, some of the news are directly extracted from these sources and put up for people to watch, without ever explaining the situation. "Americans kill 2000 civilians in Iraq!", without explaining the fact that those "civilians" were also insurgents. It's just one of the ways misinformation works. It's just what I said up there.

But things are how Loniat said: It's your experiences and background that form your opinion about something. The media plays a big role on that as well, but most of the time, it's the things you experience first hand that leave the biggest lessons in you. After all, everyone's entitled to their opinion.
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