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Old 2008-05-13, 10:32   Link #9001
Stretch5920
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......uummm I become evil to kill evil.. yeah.
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Old 2008-05-13, 10:38   Link #9002
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Stretch5920 View Post
......uummm I become evil to kill evil.. yeah.
That usually works out really well doesn't it?
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Old 2008-05-13, 10:53   Link #9003
ashlay
the red string of fate
 
 
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
About time I think ashlay started handing me my due. Who else is with me?
sorry, but at least it appears he's never going to give up Nunnally. Just look at the spoilers for turn 8, going make a deal with Suzaku and whatnot in regards to the SADJ... >_>
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:00   Link #9004
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
sorry, but at least it appears he's never going to give up Nunnally. Just look at the spoilers for turn 8, going make a deal with Suzaku and whatnot in regards to the SADJ... >_>
Yes, but that isn't much of a motivation to continue the rebellion don't you think, in fact it's counter-productive of continuing the rebellion but continue he does nonetheless!! So hand me my due already!!
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:00   Link #9005
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
sorry, but at least it appears he's never going to give up Nunnally. Just look at the spoilers for turn 8, going make a deal with Suzaku and whatnot in regards to the SADJ... >_>
But that might just mean that he isn't going to fight Nunnally directly - yet. I'd like to see the "deal" and whether Suzaku accepts it or not before jumping into any conclusions. and as Krimzon says, it may just be a way to buy time - the KoR will probably have taken quite the beating so a pause to recover may be in order.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:02   Link #9006
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
I'm with you on this at least. About time for Lelouch to get some reasons for fighting that do not all end in "Nunnally" or "Marianne". In a sense he already has them - the wish to create a world without war where people are not discriminated against based on their weakness or social status. He just needs to rediscover them, to realize that they have merit by themselves, not only in the context of sibling love.

And episode 7 looks like it will be just the right moment for this to happen.
The only problem with that argument, is that it doesn't mean he could safely put his loved ones on a lower level of importance than his goals.

Why? Because once you start to think individuals could be sacrificed for the greater good, everyone and anyone could be sacrificed.

And sacrifices are only acceptable when it is self-sacrifice. Anything else is disguised murder.

The reason Lulu couldn't go on without Nunnally, is because he doesn't believe he is doing good. He HATES being Zero, and what it means, but as long as Nunnally is there it could keep him going. Without her, there is no incentive for him to continue. He views himself to be a disgusting murderer regardless of what other people think, and just couldn't stand it.

You can't start and continue a rebellion with the mindset that you are a godsend. That path leads to madness, megalomania, and collapse of social responsibility. You need to remember that just because there are things you need to do that you HAVE to do, it doesn't make it right. And to continue down the path, you needed a tangible target to strive for. Something to keep you on the straight and narrow.
(And no, "world peace" wouldn't work as a goal. You need something tangible.)

In the end, it is about having a beacon to guide your path. For Lulu, that beacon was Nunnally. But currently that isn't enough anymore. My bet is Kallen will soon offer to share her beacon with him, but there are certainly other choices.

Either way, I am against the idea of Lulu fighting Britannia for its own sake.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:04   Link #9007
flou
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Yes, but that isn't much of a motivation to continue the rebellion don't you think, in fact it's counter-productive of continuing the rebellion but continue he does nonetheless!! So hand me my due already!!
Remember, this is Lelouch, the siscon who would kill himself (this was actually proven by one of the DS game's bad endings) if Nunnally died. To say something other than Nunnally would become his motivation for the rebellion is to completely discredit his character. As much as some would like to see Lelouch move on and become stronger without Nunnally, that would be out of place and destroy all characterization he has received up to this point. No dues for you, sorry Try again next time.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:04   Link #9008
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The only problem with that argument, is that it doesn't mean he could safely put his loved ones on a lower level of importance than his goals.

Why? Because once you start to think individuals could be sacrificed for the greater good, everyone and anyone could be sacrificed.

And sacrifices are only acceptable when it is self-sacrifice. Anything else is disguised murder.

The reason Lulu couldn't go on without Nunnally, is because he doesn't believe he is doing good. He HATES being Zero, and what it means, but as long as Nunnally is there it could keep him going. Without her, there is no incentive for him to continue. He views himself to be a disgusting murderer regardless of what other people think, and just couldn't stand it.

You can't start and continue a rebellion with the mindset that you are a godsend. That path leads to madness, megalomania, and collapse of social responsibility. You need to remember that just because there are things you need to do that you HAVE to do, it doesn't make it right. And to continue down the path, you needed a tangible target to strive for. Something to keep you on the straight and narrow.
(And no, "world peace" wouldn't work as a goal. You need something tangible.)

In the end, it is about having a beacon to guide your path. For Lulu, that beacon was Nunnally. But currently that isn't enough anymore. My bet is Kallen will soon offer to share her beacon with him, but there are certainly other choices.

Either way, I am against the idea of Lulu fighting Britannia for its own sake.
What is this, Rolo still not getting any love!?

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Originally Posted by flou View Post
Remember, this is Lelouch, the siscon who would kill himself (this was actually proven by one of the DS game's bad endings) if Nunnally died. To say something other than Nunnally would become his motivation for the rebellion is to completely discredit his character. As much as some would like to see Lelouch move on and become stronger without Nunnally, that would be out of place and destroy all characterization he has received up to this point. No dues for you, sorry Try again next time.
Hell no, because that looks to be exactly what is happening. Besides I didn't say we should discredit her, I'm simply insinuating that it's about time he realize it's about more then just her, and example No 1. Kallen and example No. 2 Rolo will help prove me right. If I'm right Example No. 3 C.C might also show up as well!! Hand it to me already!!
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:07   Link #9009
flou
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
What is this, Rolo still not getting any love!?
Lelouch, whether or not he becomes attached to Rolo later on, is not going to view him as his raison d'Ítre instead of Nunnally. That's not Lelouch.

Your argument is silly.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:11   Link #9010
ashlay
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Hell no, because that looks to be exactly what is happening. Besides I didn't say we should discredit her, I'm simply insinuating that it's about time he realize it's about more then just her, and example No 1. Kallen and example No. 2 Rolo will help prove me right. If I'm right Example No. 3 C.C might also show up as well!! Hand it to me already!!
Well, maybe Rolo will get some more love from Lelouch after next week, who knows?

But point is, Nunnally is Lelouch's reason for being, it is his motivation. How many more times do you need C.C. to say it in the openings or in the show proper? You change it, and it's just not Lelouch Lamperouge anymore. -_-
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:11   Link #9011
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by flou View Post
Lelouch, whether or not he becomes attached to Rolo later on, is not going to view him as his raison d'Ítre instead of Nunnally. That's not Lelouch.

Your argument is silly.
I was mentioning it because you only put Kallen in there flou

No it isn't, it is in keeping with what is actually happening, what i felt needed to happen eventually. Now I get to do my victory dance. Hand me my due already!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
Well, maybe Rolo will get some more love from Lelouch after next week, who knows?

But point is, Nunnally is Lelouch's reason for being. How many more times do you need C.C. to say it in the openings or in the show proper? -_-
And apparently she chose another path, while Lelouch somehow maintains his. Something's got to give or do you think I'm wrong?
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:14   Link #9012
DarkLordOfkichiku
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Originally Posted by flou View Post
To say something other than Nunnally would become his motivation for the rebellion is to completely discredit his character. As much as some would like to see Lelouch move on and become stronger without Nunnally, that would be out of place and destroy all characterization he has received up to this point. No dues for you, sorry Try again next time.
Why would it be out of place? Might actually be a realistic move on the part of the storytellers, because humans change all the time, and Lelouch actually changing (sort of) his reason to go on and fight wouldn't be a bad move IMHO - better than basing his rebellion only on his sister, I say. In any event, Nunnally needs not disappear out of his world view completely - now, THAT would be strange -, but her becoming a smaller part of it would certainly be possible IMO.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:15   Link #9013
flou
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I was mentioning it because you only put Kallen in there flou

No it isn't, it is in keeping with what is actually happening, what i felt needed to happen eventually. Now I get to do my victory dance. Hand me my due already!!



And apparently she chose another path, while Lelouch somehow maintains his. Something's got to give or do you think I'm wrong?
Uh, are you confusing my point with someone else's? I didn't mention Kallen anywhere Now for posterity's sake, please stop acting like a spoiled brat. This is what you want to happen not what will happen. This is evidenced by the "what I felt needed to happen." You have no evidence of this except for your own conviction. You can be wrong sometimes, you know
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:15   Link #9014
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku View Post
Why would it be out of place? Might actually be a realistic move on the part of the storytellers, because humans change all the time, and Lelouch actually changing (sort of) his reason to go on and fight wouldn't be a bad move IMHO - better than basing his rebellion only on his sister, I say. In any event, Nunnally needs not disappear out of his world view completely - now, THAT would be strange -, but her becoming a smaller part of it would certainly be possible IMO.

Exactly my point, it's about time Lelouch learn to adapt his reasons and motivations now that the times are a changing >_>

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Originally Posted by flou View Post
Uh, are you confusing my point with someone else's? I didn't mention Kallen anywhere Now for posterity's sake, please stop acting like a spoiled brat. This is what you want to happen not what will happen. This is evidenced by the "what I felt needed to happen." You have no evidence of this except for your own conviction. You can be wrong sometimes, you know
Oh yeah, my bad, It was Vallen

No, this is what seems to be happening, what logically will need to happen for the story to continue! Now let me bask in my success and give me my due!! Those who deny me shall shuffer for an eternity of pain and whining!!
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:18   Link #9015
ashlay
the red string of fate
 
 
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And apparently she chose another path, while Lelouch somehow maintains his. Something's got to give or do you think I'm wrong?
What, didn't you watch the preview this week? Any path Nunnally chooses is one that Lelouch will support. The whole reason he's in crisis is because he doesn't see how he's necessary to Nunnally's future anymore.

nothing's going to give next week, Lelouch is simply going to realize that his rebellion is still necessary for Nunnally's happiness. (well...after all, just because Nunnally has a cushy position right now doesn't change the fact that she's still a political tool who'll be discarded and discriminated against when she becomes unneeded... >_>)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
No, this is what seems to be happening, what logically will need to happen for the story to continue! Now let me bask in my success and give me my due!! Those who deny me shall shuffer for an eternity of pain and whining!!
like I've said before, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

well, that or you have a very odd sense of the importance of Lelouch acknowledging Rolo in comparison with all his other actions so far. >_>
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:19   Link #9016
flou
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Exactly my point, it's about time Lelouch learn to adapt his reasons and motivations now that the times are a changing >_>
Point? What point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker
And apparently she chose another path, while Lelouch somehow maintains his. Something's got to give or do you think I'm wrong?
Whether or not Nunnally takes a different path from Lelouch does not decry Lelouch must abandon everything he stands for.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:20   Link #9017
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
What, didn't you watch the preview this week? Any path Nunnally chooses is one that Lelouch will support. The whole reason he's in crisis is because he doesn't see how he's necessary to Nunnally's future anymore.

nothing's going to give next week, Lelouch is simply going to realize that his rebellion is still necessary for Nunnally's happiness. (well...after all, just because Nunnally has a cushy position right now doesn't change the fact that she's still a political tool who'll be discarded and discriminated against when she becomes unneeded... >_>)
And Rolo and Kallen appearing give no indicaiton as to otherwise, that he realises he still has other obligations and responsibilities to fulfill!! Hah, this is like you "Nunnally must have died, that's why Lelouch is so devestated' stick last week and look how well that turned out. Victory is within my grasp ashlay, bow down gracefully!!

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Originally Posted by flou View Post
Point? What point?
The one I quoted from DarkLord I believe, one where Nunnally need not leave Lelouch's mind but he starts to account for more then just her in his reasons.

Quote:
Whether or not Nunnally takes a different path from Lelouch does not decry Lelouch must abandon everything he stands for.
This isn't about abandoning, I didn't say that, it's about adding to his character and what he stands for, because right now she is no longer enough for him to keep pushing forward from the looks of it. Hand it already!!
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:21   Link #9018
Stretch5920
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Quote:
My bet is Kallen will soon offer to share her beacon with him


Quote:
Originally Posted by flou View Post
Remember, this is Lelouch, the siscon who would kill himself (this was actually proven by one of the DS game's bad endings) if Nunnally died. To say something other than Nunnally would become his motivation for the rebellion is to completely discredit his character. As much as some would like to see Lelouch move on and become stronger without Nunnally, that would be out of place and destroy all characterization he has received up to this point. No dues for you, sorry Try again next time.
That scene was rather stupid, he killed himself because it was his fault she killed herself, the reason being Lelouch says C.C is their new mother. Yeah, that's how dumb it is.
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:24   Link #9019
ashlay
the red string of fate
 
 
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
And Rolo and Kallen appearing give no indicaiton as to otherwise, that he realises he still has other obligations and responsibilities to fulfill!! Hah, this is like you "Nunnally must have died, that's why Lelouch is so devestated' stick last week and look how well that turned out. Victory is within my grasp ashlay, bow down gracefully!!
Indeed I did get a little too excited there.

But what, you mean to tell me it wasn't Nunnally who left him depressed this week? 0_o
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Old 2008-05-13, 11:24   Link #9020
greyhawk
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Because of someone, the whole Rebellion was screwed (thousands died). This time, also because of that certain someone, another JLF member was killed, Lelouch went super emo and just what else lies in store? That very same person's gonna revive the retarded idea of stopping the resistance by giving the Jap a tiny piece of land and some fake independence (under Britannia's supervision of course), which will in the end result in Britannia being able to steal away all the Sakuradite without hassle.
Seriously, I hope Lelouch can get over this pile of BS, go find a girl, and get laid ASAP.
He still has reasons to fight besides Nunnally, it's just that he doesn't realize it. Like, defend the weak, find out what really happened to his mother, and get rid of that Nazi Emperor for good. (Yup, I'm now confident about using that word).
Next ep, we'll see Kallen have a good talk with Lelouch about his sister (after hearing the whole story), Rolo question about his importance to Lelouch and most importantly, Lelouch himself manage to get over this emo breakdown and come back to the Order.
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