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Old 2006-11-27, 12:22   Link #21
Bronwen Stx
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Originally Posted by billbrown View Post
People we should know better by now than to compare strength levels of different fights. Kubo has given us inconsistencies time and time again, its basically futile to try and gauge someone's strength based on their duels with others.

That being said, i'd surmise to say a sustained(not 11 seconds) hollow ichigo is slightly below the power of a released grimjaw. Just a feeling, though we don't know for sure.

I totally agree with this statement. I believe that Kubo isn't using the power meter (like Dragon Ball), I believe he is taking into consideration everything that surrounds a battle including the character's willpower, situation, emotion etc. You win some, you lose some - doesn't matter to who.

Other than that, Nell. is. so. cute. Ichigo should just adopt her because he already treats her like she's his sister or something.
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Old 2006-11-27, 16:13   Link #22
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Bronwen Stx
I totally agree with this statement. I believe that Kubo isn't using the power meter (like Dragon Ball), I believe he is taking into consideration everything that surrounds a battle including the character's willpower, situation, emotion etc. You win some, you lose some - doesn't matter to who.
Actually, Bleach is closer to DBZ than other manga I've seen in a while, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Still, the whole fighting scheme is very "black & white" (not a pun on it being a manga). Winning fights is mostly a matter of who is the strongest. Ichigo isn't getting victories by coming up with ingenious or unique fighting methods, he's winning by strength/endurance. If shikai doesn't work, he goes to bankai, if bankai doesn't work, he goes to vizard, if vizard doesn't work...well he's screwed. The same goes for the other characters more or less. The fights are basically all one-on-one, using the surrounding evironment to an advantage is practically non-existant and of course you can tell when an opponent's really strong because everyone's afraid of their power level.. er, I mean reiatsu. The fights are really cool though and have great style. It works for this manga.

Anyways, vizard Ichigo was badass as always and Nell was ridiculously cute as always. I suppose from here out we will see Ishida, Chad, Renji and Rukia face off against their opponents (not nessarily in that order), who will likely be three-digit arrancar as well. Rukia-with-bankai fans hold your breath, because her next fight might determine whether she has it or not!
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Old 2006-11-27, 21:09   Link #23
hdx514
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Originally Posted by billbrown View Post
People we should know better by now than to compare strength levels of different fights. Kubo has given us inconsistencies time and time again, its basically futile to try and gauge someone's strength based on their duels with others.
someone asked for evidence, and i'm just providing proof of the huge gap between renji and ichigo. this is NOT rock-paper-scissors as one's using shikai, the other bankai, and shikai ichigo and bankai renji are the same type of fighters, they rely on physical attacks. neither is capable of kidou or broken abilities. it's good comparison.

if you want to argue against that then please provide evidence of claimed inconsistencies: i.e. A's bankai got easily defeated by B's shikai (ZERO injuries), and B's shikai < C's shikai (C's shikai forced B to go bankai), and C is not as strong as A. aizen would be a good example. have you seen anyone that could injure and force aizen to go bankai in his shikai state and at the same time being weaker than komamura/hitsugaya?

chad was easily defeated by unreleased shunsui. 2 shikai shunsuis < yamaji, therefore chad in S.S. < shikai yamaji. how is that futile comparison? are you saying that people like hanataro and rukia has a chance of defeating anyone they haven't fought directly before? we don't even know if vaizard ichigo can pwn rukia/renji, since they never fought directly, is that so?

Quote:
That being said, i'd surmise to say a sustained(not 11 seconds) hollow ichigo is slightly below the power of a released grimjaw. Just a feeling, though we don't know for sure.
you're calling a comparison using manga evidence futile yet you're just doing the same even without evidence.
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Old 2006-11-28, 05:18   Link #24
kagato3
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Originally Posted by hdx514


-renji’s bankai got pawned easy by byakuya’s shikai, he didn’t even bleed byakuya. byakuya complimented him because renji was able to touch byakuya with his own blood, i have no idea why that deserves compliment, seeing that my grandma can do that in a fight against bruce lee

-byakuya didn’t go bankai on bankai renji until the very end, and he only used it as a finishing blow to show renji their power gap, it was unnecessary

-ichigo’s shikai injured shikai byakuya, byakuya wasted no time to go bankai on shikai ichigo.

-renji in bankai mode took 1 hit from byakuya’s bankai like a wuss. ichigo in shikai mode on the other hand sustained minor injuries

man you're misremembering things

Lets look at the fight you use as proof that Renji's bankai is weaker then Ichigo's Shikai

Renji vs Byakuya

R: Hey, Byakuya I'm here to beat you down and prove I'm better then you. Look I can release with out saying my swords name.
B: that means you have a bankia
R:yep, Bankai. (Renji goes right into bankai, never fighting Byakuya with his Shikai)
B:when did you get bankai
R: like you care
B: doesn't matter you can't even make my knee touch the ground. scatter Senbonzakura
R: that won't work I know all your triks and my Bankai can sheild me. oh look I made your knee thouch the ground
B: grrr blast spell 33
R: Trying to blind me and hide?
B: No, I'm messing up your control of your bankai cause it take 10 years to learn to fight with something that big.
R: yeah I know. but my bankai's still good and I've taken no damage from you.
B: hold person ( confinement spell 61)
R: [fails save] oh $#!+
B: guess what I have a bankai too or did you forget. you is pwned
[held target hit by 1000 blades]
R: I'm not dead yet
B: your swords reverted to an unreleased state. your dieing. but any way here is my second stage bankai.
R: still not dead yet and urge to stab you in the face riseing. [makes a smal cut on Byakuya with unreleased soul cutter that then breaks]
B: ow, die and here's a hanky.

we never got a chance to see what renji's shikai could do vs Byakuya, instead Renji rushed in and was fighting with a large and hard to control weapon that he had no real practice with and he was still able to defend himself so that he was untouched by Byakuya's shikai. Byakuya was able to gain the upper hand after messing up Renji's timeing and freezeing him in place by useing spells. He then took two full on hits from Byakuya 's bankai that he had no way of guarding against and was still able to cut Bankai Byakuya with an unreleased soul cutter when his sprit energy was extremly low and he was mostly dead. From this there is a good chance that had Renji fought Byakuya with his shikai he may have faired much better in the short run, although the end resualt would have been the same.

Ichigo's bankai doesn't have Renji's main drawback, its so large it's hard to control, in fact Ichigo's bankai should be easyer to use then his shikai as it is a smaller and most likely a lighter sword, of course it has it's own down side in that it messes up you body if you use it too long.

As it played out there is nothing in there that shows Renji's bankai is weaker then Ichigo's shikai. Only that it is harder to control and doesn't do jack if you oponet can freeze you in one place so you can't block 1000 razor blades.

Last edited by kagato3; 2006-11-28 at 05:34.
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Old 2006-11-28, 09:21   Link #25
jianfish
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Somehow I feel like its a given that Ichigo's Bankai is stronger than Renji's.

Ok, so there isn't any direct evidence but there is always something called being obvious and I think this falls into that catageroy.
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Old 2006-11-28, 09:52   Link #26
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by kagato3
Ichigo's bankai doesn't have Renji's main drawback, its so large it's hard to control, in fact Ichigo's bankai should be easyer to use then his shikai as it is a smaller and most likely a lighter sword, of course it has it's own down side in that it messes up you body if you use it too long.

As it played out there is nothing in there that shows Renji's bankai is weaker then Ichigo's shikai. Only that it is harder to control and doesn't do jack if you oponet can freeze you in one place so you can't block 1000 razor blades.
Agreed. Ichigo's bankai offers a natural counter to Byakuya's shikai because it gives him insane speed. His shunpo ability is increased like 200%, probably making him one of the best shunpo users in the series, if not the best. In his shikai form however, he barely uses shunpo and has mediocre speed. I have little doubt that if Ichigo had continued to use shikai against Byakuya, he would've been defeated quicker than Renji. Luckily, Byakuya was taking a lot of time to talk down to him because he was ryoka and also wasn't using the kidou he used against Renji during their fight. Also, the first attack he used to injure Ichigo before he went Bankai wasn't as strong the attack used to cripple Renji. So he seemed to fare better against Byakuya than Renji did.
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Old 2006-11-28, 12:21   Link #27
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
we never got a chance to see what renji's shikai could do vs Byakuya, instead Renji rushed in and was fighting with a large and hard to control weapon that he had no real practice with and he was still able to defend himself so that he was untouched by Byakuya's shikai.

Ichigo's bankai doesn't have Renji's main drawback, its so large it's hard to control, in fact Ichigo's bankai should be easyer to use then his shikai as it is a smaller and most likely a lighter sword, of course it has it's own down side in that it messes up you body if you use it too long.
We got a chance to see how much Renji's shikai is capable of when he fought against Ichigo (if I remember correctly). If the styles are similar, than Renji would suffer the same way Ichigo suffered against Byakuya.

Also, around the time Ichigo fought against Byakuya, I don't think he had sufficient time to recover from his injuries, or recover from his strength loss. He most probably came to fight as soon as he achieved bankai. He never had the experience with his Zanpaktou as Renji had with his own. I think from the point of views of experience, level of strength preserved, health conditions, Renji had the better condition compared to Ichigo. And he still failed pretty quickly against Byakuya.

Anyway, I don't think Renji will ever be capable of beating Byakuya even he gains the experience needed, however, Ichigo's fight against Byakuya was considered as a win. Apart from that, I guess the discussion is based on Renji bankai vs. Ichigo shikai: considering the level of strength Ichigo can extract in his shikai mode (against Kenpachi), I think it is fair to say he is highly capable of beating Renji's bankai without the need to go to bankai.
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Old 2006-11-28, 12:30   Link #28
hdx514
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His shunpo ability is increased like 200%, probably making him one of the best shunpo users in the series
i don't think his bankai speed is at all impressive compared to top-tier fighters. unreleased grimmjow took his bankai like a joke, without getsuga that is. even doldoni is fast enough that ichigo can't defend against his attacks and protect nell with bankai. plus i think this chapter and his fight against grimmjow clearly show that in vaizard mode ichigo is not only much more powerful, but also way faster. so i believe his bankai speed would also appear pretty slow to the vaizards.

Quote:
I have little doubt that if Ichigo had continued to use shikai against Byakuya, he would've been defeated quicker than Renji.
of course shikai ichigo would be defeated more quickly by bankai byakuya than bankai renji by shikai byakuya

Quote:
Luckily, Byakuya was taking a lot of time to talk down to him because he was ryoka and also wasn't using the kidou he used against Renji during their fight.
see that’s exactly my point. byakuya clearly showed more arrogance towards ichigo than renji by saying shit like “you’re 10 centuries too early to see my bankai”. the only way he would overthrew this statement and go bankai immediately after seeing ichigo’s shikai ability would be because despite his arrogance he knew he would not be able to “teach the kid a proper lesson” with shikai + kidou alone. using bankai is like smacking himself in the face. with byakuya’s huge ego, if he thought it wasn’t necessary, doesn’t matter what ichigo says he would not have used bankai. as shown later, he was fully capable of using kidou on ichigo

Quote:
Also, the first attack he used to injure Ichigo before he went Bankai wasn't as strong the attack used to cripple Renji.
no, he injured ichigo with bankai no less. the one who was injured before byakuya went bankai was himself, by ichigo’s shikai technique (which he never had aim practice before). and since ichigo was lacking total shikai practice, any excuses concerning renji’s bankai is completely moot.

Quote:
there is a good chance that had Renji fought Byakuya with his shikai he may have faired much better in the short run, although the end resualt would have been the same.
is that so? here’s another comparison: unreleased byakuya vs shikai renji in karakura town. 1/5th unreleased byakuya owned ichigo with ZERO effort after his reiatsu burst and was owning 1/5th shikai renji. renji was able to defend byakuya’s shikai attacks due to the huge size of his bankai. it’s mind boggling how someone can really expect his shikai to be able to defend against byakuya when both it and his master ikkaku’s shikai failed to defend against a n00b ichigo’s single blade, at a point when ichigo couldn’t even scratch kenpachi, didn’t have the conversation with zangetsu let alone getting around to bankai

Quote:
B: your swords reverted to an unreleased state. your dieing. but any way here is my second stage bankai.
byakuya DID NOT use 2nd stage senbonzakura on renji. he only used kageyoshi TWICE including against ichigo, which was the first time it appeared in the manga, in his entire life, and whoever saw it before ichigo is no longer “living”, because bykuya only uses it when he is absolutely determined to kill the opponent.

Quote:
He then took two full on hits from Byakuya 's bankai that he had no way of guarding against
first, the second hit couldn’t be further away from a “full hit”. if memory serves me right then only a single sword pinning his right arm down, as byakuya had no intentions of killing him, only stopping him.
second, he could defend against byakuya’s bankai much better than ichigo in his shikai mode, at least before the first hit. he was half dead because of his rubbish defense.

Quote:
and was still able to cut Bankai Byakuya with an unreleased soul cutter
didn’t happen in bleach. the blood was of his own, his sword snapped because it wasn’t strong enough to cut through byakuya. check for blood on the tip of renji’s broken sword, or any reliable online source.
please stop skewing manga facts in favor of your argument

Quote:
Ichigo's bankai doesn't have Renji's main drawback, its so large it's hard to control, in fact Ichigo's bankai should be easyer to use then his shikai as it is a smaller and most likely a lighter sword, of course it has it's own down side in that it messes up you body if you use it too long.
renji’s bankai doesn’t have ichigo’s main drawback, it’s so fast it’s hard to control (super speed is as difficult to control as super mass, try playing a game with the character 10x times faster than usual), and it messes up your body. and don’t forget ichigo himself has a HUGE, difficult-to- control potential. in fact, renji’s bankai should be easier to use than his shikai, because it’s huge and powerful and blocks attacks from large areas. why didn’t byakuya use shikai and kidou to mess up ichigo’s flow and wait for him to crush under his own pressure, the same way he did to renji? if you suddenly become so much faster then it’s just as easy for your moves to overshoot. point: don’t apply double standard as excuses for renji. weak is weak, the reasons, they don’t matter. so what if chad didn’t have enough practice with the arm and the powers are too huge for him to handle, fact is, he got owned by shunsui, so was weaker.

Quote:
instead Renji rushed in and was fighting with a large and hard to control weapon that he had no real practice with and he was still able to defend himself so that he was untouched by Byakuya's shikai.
I assume you’re aware that one can easily make a similar but much more impressive statement with ichigo.

going by your logic, which is to say that byakuya is right: renji’s bankai is too hard to control and he’s at least 10 years too early to use it. i don’t know why you think i’m missing the point, because that’s is exactly my point - For WHATEVER REASONS, you cannot deny that renji’s bankai was worse than ichigo’s shikai IN S.S. ARC. I don’t care about the reasons. because i know he’s at least 10 years too early to use bankai according to byakuya. i know he’s no hypergenius like ichigo nor supergenius like hitsugaya, and even hitsugaya hasn’t perfected his bankai. so i know 1 month training makes 0 difference and his bankai has only become that much weaker than ichigo’s shikai.

once ichigo’s M form becomes stronger than character X’s N form for whatever reasons it will remain that way forever, because no zangetsu type fighter can catch up ichigo with training. by the time renji realizes his full bankai potential, shikai ichigo would own him easily. why? because EVERYONE improves with practice, and the two things which distinguish between ichigo and renji are
-ichigo has much greater potential. whatever kenpachi can do with shikai, ichigo has the potential to do more by the time he perfects his shikai.
-ichigo’s speed of realizing his potential is much greater. by the time renji perfected his bankai, ichigo would have long since perfected his shikai.

using excuses such as “lack of practice/control, size too huge…” is outright laughable considering what Sazelyt said and that ichigo has had next to no practice compared to renji and renji’s tiny bankai is next to nothing compared to ichigo’s huge reiatsu stock.

in the end, you didn’t deny that renji’s bankai was crap in S.S., nor did you provide evidence of it being stronger than ichigo’s shikai, you merely gave lack of practice as reason, something byakuya already did. you even suggested that his bankai might be worse than shikai, which got owned by shikai ichigo way before. what IS your argument anyway? that renji can improve faster than ichigo?! that renji’s bankai of the future is more powerful than ichigo’s shikai of the past?!

Last edited by hdx514; 2006-11-28 at 13:18.
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Old 2006-11-28, 13:57   Link #29
kagato3
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
byakuya DID NOT use 2nd stage senbonzakura on renji. he only used kageyoshi TWICE including against ichigo, which was the first time it appeared in the manga, in his entire life, and whoever saw it before ichigo is no longer “living”, because bykuya only uses it when he is absolutely determined to kill the opponent.
The atack he used for the second strike was closer to his 2 stage use of his bankai than his first, the only thing missing is the big cage of swords, but then it realy doesn't matter since it does not give Bykuya a power boost.
Quote:
first, the second hit couldn’t be further away from a “full hit”. if memory serves me right then only a single sword pinning his right arm down, as byakuya had no intentions of killing him, only stopping him.
second, he could defend against byakuya’s bankai much better than ichigo in his shikai mode, at least before the first hit. he was half dead because of his rubbish defense.
It looked to me that he had been hit by more then one of the swords only being pined by 2 on his left arm.

Your saying that Renji has a rubbish defense because he could not block because bykuya used a spell that he never even tryed against Ichigo , that froze him in one spot that prevented him from any movement.
Quote:
didn’t happen in bleach. the blood was of his own, his sword snapped because it wasn’t strong enough to cut through byakuya. check for blood on the tip of renji’s broken sword, or any reliable online source.
please stop skewing manga facts in favor of your argument
Perhaps I misinterpeted what happend. It has always looked to me he was able to scratch bykuya in the swing that broke his sword. As for skewing manga facts in my favor I haven't been but I will admit at times it seems you are quick to dismiss any fact that doesn't fit your argument, and you have been mistaken on many of the facts in this debate.
Quote:
renji’s bankai doesn’t have ichigo’s main drawback, it’s so fast it’s hard to control (super speed is as difficult to control as super mass, try playing a game with the character 10x times faster than usual), and it messes up your body. and don’t forget ichigo himself has a HUGE, difficult-to- control potential. in fact, renji’s bankai should be easier to use than his shikai, because it’s huge and powerful and blocks attacks from large areas. why didn’t byakuya use shikai and kidou to mess up ichigo’s flow and wait for him to crush under his own pressure, the same way he did to renji? if you suddenly become so much faster then it’s just as easy for your moves to overshoot. point: don’t apply double standard as excuses for renji. weak is weak, the reasons, they don’t matter. so what if chad didn’t have enough practice with the arm and the powers are too huge for him to handle, fact is, he got owned by shunsui, so was weaker.
The fact is Renji admited that he has poor control over his bankai durring the fight and he realy isn't ready to use it in combat. Ichigo did not have that problem.

Quote:
going by your logic, which is to say that byakuya is right: renji’s bankai is too hard to control and he’s at least 10 years too early to use it. i don’t know why you think i’m missing the point, because that’s is exactly my point - For WHATEVER REASONS, you cannot deny that renji’s bankai was worse than ichigo’s shikai IN S.S. ARC. I don’t care about the reasons. because i know he’s at least 10 years too early to use bankai according to byakuya. i know he’s no hypergenius like ichigo nor supergenius like hitsugaya, and even hitsugaya hasn’t perfected his bankai. so i know 1 month training makes 0 difference and his bankai has only become that much than ichigo’s shikai.

once ichigo’s M form becomes stronger than character X’s N form for whatever reasons it will remain that way forever, because no zangetsu type fighter can catch up ichigo with training. by the time renji realizes his full bankai potential, shikai ichigo would own him easily. why? because EVERYONE improves with practice, and the two things which distinguish between ichigo and renji are
ichigo has much greater potential. whatever kenpachi can do with shikai, ichigo has the potential to do more by the time he perfects his shikai.
ichigo’s speed of realizing his potential is much greater. by the time renji perfected his bankai, ichigo would have long since perfected his shikai.

using excuses such as “lack of practice/control, size too huge…” is outright laughable considering what Sazelyt said and that ichigo has had next to no practice compared to renji and renji’s tiny bankai is next to nothing compared to ichigo’s huge reiatsu stock.

in the end, you didn’t deny that renji’s bankai was crap in S.S., nor did you provide evidence of it being stronger than ichigo’s shikai, you merely gave lack of practice as reason, something byakuya already did. you even suggested that his bankai might be worse than shikai, which got owned by shikai ichigo way before. what IS your argument anyway? that renji can improve faster than ichigo?! that renji’s bankai of the future is more powerful than ichigo’s shikai of the past?!
Being worse in a fight is not the same as being weaker your orgainal argument was that it was WEAKER then Ichigo's shikai. I do seem to remember Renji destroying buildings with his bankai something we haven't seen Ichigo's shikai doing.
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Old 2006-11-28, 14:26   Link #30
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by hdx514
i don't think his bankai speed is at all impressive compared to top-tier fighters. unreleased grimmjow took his bankai like a joke, without getsuga that is. even doldoni is fast enough that ichigo can't defend against his attacks and protect nell with bankai. plus i think this chapter and his fight against grimmjow clearly show that in vaizard mode ichigo is not only much more powerful, but also way faster. so i believe his bankai speed would also appear pretty slow to the vaizards.
We don't really have any solid comparison of Ichigo's bankai speed to that of the vizards, but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make. The point is that speed is the key to defeating Byakuya's techniques, Ichigo's bankai gives him superior shunpo ability by shinigami standards. This is obvious by Byakuya's reaction, even though he is accomplished shunpo user. On the other hand, Ichigo can barely can use it in shikai form. He would've been quickly killed even if Byakuya had used only his shikai, because his shikai and the first stage of Kageyoshi are essentially the same. Without bankai, Ichigo doesn't have the tools necessary to last too long against Byakuya.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Anyway, I don't think Renji will ever be capable of beating Byakuya even he gains the experience needed, however, Ichigo's fight against Byakuya was considered as a win. Apart from that, I guess the discussion is based on Renji bankai vs. Ichigo shikai: considering the level of strength Ichigo can extract in his shikai mode (against Kenpachi), I think it is fair to say he is highly capable of beating Renji's bankai without the need to go to bankai.
I think the Zaraki vs. Ichigo fight isn't a good comparison to Ichigo shikai vs. Renji bankai. Basically, all Ichigo and Zaraki did was charge towards each other with fully charged reiatsu. That was a simple close-combat situation, something Ichigo excels at. However, Renji's bankai is very long range weapon, one that Ichigo can't simply cut through because it is capable of splitting and reattaching itself. Ichigo without bankai will have trouble avoiding it because of his lack of speed. He also has no kidou tecniques to compensate. There's more to winning battles than raw spiritual power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hdx514
is that so? here’s another comparison: unreleased byakuya vs shikai renji in karakura town. 1/5th unreleased byakuya owned ichigo with ZERO effort after his reiatsu burst and was owning 1/5th shikai renji.
Once again, Ichigo's lack of speed was the reason he was pwned to fast, seeing as Byakuya simply flash stepped behind him. I don't see how this furthers the Ichigo shikai > Renji bankai point. The way I see it, it only further serves to show that Byakuya can easily destroy Ichigo in his shikai state.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-11-28 at 14:38.
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Old 2006-11-28, 15:28   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
. Apart from that, I guess the discussion is based on Renji bankai vs. Ichigo shikai: considering the level of strength Ichigo can extract in his shikai mode (against Kenpachi), I think it is fair to say he is highly capable of beating Renji's bankai without the need to go to bankai.
I agree with this.

Ichihgo on power alone should be able to overwhelm Renjis Bankai, Kempachi defeated 1 (maybe 2?) captains and their respective Bankai, just on Power alone no Release.

So IF Kempachi on power alone can do this, why Not an Ichigo that has Shikai with enough power to defeat Kempachi? whereas Renji gained His Bankai just recently.

But, To give the benefit of the doubt, Renji Bankai at this moments, could be above Ichigos Shikai, after all, if Renji is going to be fighting and maybe even defeating Espadas, his Power should had increase dramatically. IMO.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-28 at 15:48.
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Old 2006-11-28, 21:46   Link #32
hdx514
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Being worse in a fight is not the same as being weaker your orgainal argument was that it was WEAKER then Ichigo's shikai. I do seem to remember Renji destroying buildings with his bankai something we haven't seen Ichigo's shikai doing.
huh? of course it does. chad doing worse than yamaji shikai in a fight against shunsui proves that yamaji shikai > chad. that chad lacked practice is...not even a point.

if renji lost to byakuya because he lacks practice and isn't ready to use it in combat, then he's bankai will be defeated by ichigo's shikai due to lack of practice and unready for combat. plus, as i said, using lack of practice as an excuse when it concerns shounen hero is laughable. no one lacks more practice than ichigo/chad in bleach.

and i haven't seeing vaizard ichigo destroy any buildings either

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The fact is Renji admited that he has poor control over his bankai durring the fight and he realy isn't ready to use it in combat. Ichigo did not have that problem.
because ichigo's already gone past that stage even with a mere 2 days and a dodgy shikai

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He would've been quickly killed even if Byakuya had used only his shikai, because his shikai and the first stage of Kageyoshi are essentially the same. Without bankai, Ichigo doesn't have the tools necessary to last too long against Byakuya.
then instead of eating his own words and going bankai immediately after seeing ichigo's ability byakuya would have "killed ichigo quickly with shikai". since you're so sure, would you mind explaining to me why byakuya would stay in shikai form until the very end against bankai renji, but would bankai against an enemy who he looks down more right after saying he'll 1000 years too early to see it?

speed is only one thing in combat. does kenpachi have the speed tools to last against byakuya. no. he appears no faster than shikai ichigo, before bankai training. so can kenpachi last long against byakuya? well he probably would be defeated by byakuya bankai, but he would pwn shikai byakuya for sure. not with speed, but with power/reiatsu, the same way shikai ichigo will overwhelm shikai byakuya. byakuya's not stupid, that's why he acknowledged ichigo's prowess and promptly went bankai to waste the kid

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I think the Zaraki vs. Ichigo fight isn't a good comparison to Ichigo shikai vs. Renji bankai. Basically, all Ichigo and Zaraki did was charge towards each other with fully charged reiatsu. That was a simple close-combat situation, something Ichigo excels at. However, Renji's bankai is very long range weapon, one that Ichigo can't simply cut through because it is capable of splitting and reattaching itself. Ichigo without bankai will have trouble avoiding it because of his lack of speed. He also has no kidou tecniques to compensate. There's more to winning battles than raw spiritual power.
you know why your argument doesn't work? because i can apply in its entirety to kenpachi and end up with the conclusion that kenpachi would be defeated by bankai renji, which clearly would NOT happen. and you know why? because reiatsu isn't everything in battle, but it's damn near.

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Ichihgo on power alone should be able to overwhelm Renjis Bankai, Kempachi defeated 1 (maybe 2?) captains and their respective Bankai, just on Power alone no Release.
plus aizen worries about ichigo as a potential threat, not kenpachi. to be considered a threat to someone whose shikai owns bankais like nothing means having the potential to own bankais with shikai like nothing. so from what aizen's seen from ichigo he believes ichigo has the POTENTIAL to SOON reach a power level which would enable him to own hitsugaya, komamura's bankai with shikai. renji's bankai's not even worth considering. if you're a similar type of fighter to the hero, once you're bested by him you're history. since renji's popular, kubo has allowed him to tag along, kind of like d-roy.
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Old 2006-11-29, 01:11   Link #33
kagato3
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huh? of course it does.
By this logic Rukia's shikai is stronger then Ichigo's shikai, heck I could even say his bankai, since he was unable to do any thing against Runagana and had to run away while Rukia could one hit kill him, which is clearly incorrect it was just Ichigo's atacks are not suited to fighting a being made of sand. Renji's bankai is not suited for fighting Byakuya, it is fairly slow moveing and is easly disrupted by kidou where as Byakuya is a fast moveing mid range kidou user. Ichigo's bankai makes him a perfect counter to Byakuya as it make him a superspeed fighter which negates most of Byakuya's advantage.

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chad doing worse than yamaji shikai in a fight against shunsui proves that yamaji shikai > chad. that chad lacked practice is...not even a point.
Given there was no Shunsui-Yamaji fight as it was called on acount of bad guy we have no clue if Chad did worse then Yamaji Shikai. What makes Yamaji more power full then Chad is that he can nearly kill a vc just by powering up.

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if renji lost to byakuya because he lacks practice and isn't ready to use it in combat, then he's bankai will be defeated by ichigo's shikai due to lack of practice and unready for combat. plus, as i said, using lack of practice as an excuse when it concerns shounen hero is laughable. no one lacks more practice than ichigo/chad in bleach.
It's not clear how well Ichigo would do vs. Renji, if Ichigo was just useing shikai and Renji was in bankai mode. Shikai Ichigo is not quite as fast as Byakuya nor does he have what truned out to be the trump cards in the Byakuya-Renji fight the spells that were used to throw off Renji's atacks and the binding spells.

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because ichigo's already gone past that stage even with a mere 2 days and a dodgy shikai
It's more the 2 bankai's are completely diffrent beasts. Ichigo's is a smaller version of his shikai with a speed boost that speeds up all his reaction times so he has no problem controling the extra speed making the learning curve pretty low in fact he doesn't use it any diffrent then his shikai. Renji's is a 10x larger version of his shikai makeing it more unwieldy and has a weakness that it's timeing can be thrown off with kidou.

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plus aizen worries about ichigo as a potential threat, not kenpachi. to be considered a threat to someone whose shikai owns bankais like nothing means having the potential to own bankais with shikai like nothing. so from what aizen's seen from ichigo he believes ichigo has the POTENTIAL to SOON reach a power level which would enable him to own hitsugaya, komamura's bankai with shikai. renji's bankai's not even worth considering. if you're a similar type of fighter to the hero, once you're bested by him you're history. since renji's popular, kubo has allowed him to tag along, kind of like d-roy.
Where in the would are you getting this whole "own hitsugaya, komamura's bankai with shikai" thing? Was there a crack filled issue I miss? Azien's big worry about Ichigo is that he is the most powerfull fighter that he knows about that can't be owned by the whole "you saw my shikai so I can play mind games with you all I want" like all the other captians and vc's.
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Old 2006-11-29, 04:41   Link #34
hdx514
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By this logic Rukia's shikai is stronger then Ichigo's shikai
1.it is, against sand based enemies.

2.ichigo landed his hit easily on sand guardian, renji failed to scratch byakuya

3.sand guardian would have been killed, but since he’s immune to everything except water, he regenerates. as I’ve been saying all along, renji and ichigo’s attacks carry no elements and byakuya isn’t especially susceptible to one and immune against another

4.superspeed is an advantage against a very wide range of opponents while water only works against a very specific element. byakuya bankai given its nature, is susceptible to superspeed, which did gave ichigo a huge advantage, nobody is trying to deny that. what I’m saying is: whatever natural advantage ichigo’s bankai has over byakuya, who’s a speedy kidou user, applies even more to bankai renji, who has slow/unwieldy/ uncontrollable bankai with little kidou knowledge. so bankai ichigo can waste bankai renji easy, as someone already pointed out, it’s what believed as “common sense”, which you don’t seem to have.

5.it’s incorrect to say that rukia’s shikai is more powerful than ichigo’s shikai because whatever advantage rukia has over sand guardian is determined by very specific elements and doesn’t apply to ichigo. but IF ichigo himself is sand based, then the advantages apply equally and rukia shikai > ichigo shikai would be a correct statement

6.i’m talking about shikai ichigo all along, which offers him ZERO advantage against byakuya. don’t know why people always try to change it to bankai.

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Given there was no Shunsui-Yamaji fight as it was called on acount of bad guy we have no clue if Chad did worse then Yamaji Shikai.
yeah. i’m sure most people would agree with you that seeing yamaji going against effectively 2 shikai shunshuis doesn’t prove beyond doubt that his shikai is way more powerful than chad in S.S. whose attacks shunsui slept through. again, that’s what i would consider common sense.

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It's not clear how well Ichigo would do vs. Renji, if Ichigo was just useing shikai and Renji was in bankai mode. Shikai Ichigo is not quite as fast as Byakuya nor does he have what truned out to be the trump cards in the Byakuya-Renji fight the spells that were used to throw off Renji's atacks and the binding spells.
i already stated this in a previous post, kenpachi doesn’t fight with own zanpakutou, don’t give a darn about kidou and is about as fast as n00b ichigo. yet i believe it’s common sense that he’ll defeat bankai renji if he gives 100%. wonder why.

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It's more the 2 bankai's are completely diffrent beasts. Ichigo's is a smaller version of his shikai with a speed boost that speeds up all his reaction times so he has no problem controling the extra speed making the learning curve pretty low in fact he doesn't use it any diffrent then his shikai. Renji's is a 10x larger version of his shikai makeing it more unwieldy and has a weakness that it's timeing can be thrown off with kidou.
renji’s is a bigger version of his shikai with a power boost that boosts up his powers so he has no problem controlling the extra mass making the learning curve pretty low in fact he now has a lot of extra powerful offensive and defensive moves compared to his shikai. Ichigo’s reiatsu potential is a 10x larger than renji and he’s had 1/100 practice makeing it that much more difficult for him to control his powers blah. just double standard

please, i’m talking ichigo’s shikai doing better than renji’s bankai. none of the speed/reaction thing applies. someone is yet to answer why the arrogant byakuya would go bankai on shikai ichigo before bankai renji. you want to talk about learning curves/practice then start with the 6 years of academy training and countless missions renji had. otherwise its case closed.

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Where in the would are you getting this whole "own hitsugaya, komamura's bankai with shikai" thing? Was there a crack filled issue I miss? Azien's big worry about Ichigo is that he is the most powerfull fighter that he knows about that can't be owned by the whole "you saw my shikai so I can play mind games with you all I want" like all the other captians and vc's.
i’m getting this in the manga, the parts of which you missed/skewed.
1. there’s NOTHING to suggest that aizen can’t hypnotize ichigo. in fact ichigo should already be under hypnosis. the qualifying condition being that he saw aizen’s shikai the first time right when aizen pwned komamura

2.aizen’s worries, according to ulquiorra is the kids HUGE POTENTIAL and GROWTH RATE. Before going vaizard, bankai ichigo isn’t shit compared to grimmjow, who isn’t shit compared to ulquiorra, who again isn’t shit compared to aizen. if ichigo stays as powerful as his S.S. bankai. why would aizen who has no fear worry about someone this weak?

3.aizen thinks that ichigo has the potential to be a threat to him. two bankai captains and an unreleased grimmjow posed no threat to aizen in shikai and below. so naturally to qualify as a threat to such a monster, one needs to be on a similar level: i.e., has the potential to pwn those three with shikai and below
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Old 2006-11-29, 10:51   Link #35
Rurik
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
iím getting this in the manga, the parts of which you missed/skewed.
1. thereís NOTHING to suggest that aizen canít hypnotize ichigo. in fact ichigo should already be under hypnosis. the qualifying condition being that he saw aizenís shikai the first time right when aizen pwned komamura

2.aizenís worries, according to ulquiorra is the kids HUGE POTENTIAL and GROWTH RATE. Before going vaizard, bankai ichigo isnít shit compared to grimmjow, who isnít shit compared to ulquiorra, who again isnít shit compared to aizen. if ichigo stays as powerful as his S.S. bankai. why would aizen who has no fear worry about someone this weak?

3.aizen thinks that ichigo has the potential to be a threat to him. two bankai captains and an unreleased grimmjow posed no threat to aizen in shikai and below. so naturally to qualify as a threat to such a monster, one needs to be on a similar level: i.e., has the potential to pwn those three with shikai and below

4. Aizen is so intelligent he buys issues of Shoene Jump, so he knows Ichigo is the principal Character
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Old 2006-11-29, 10:57   Link #36
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Know what when this chapter is made into anime .... Just moments before Ichigo slices Dol Doni ( ) I can see the Number One track Playing in the background ...

I would stop comparing shikais and bankais with every passing post everyone is sounding more and more like Yellow Flash


EDIT : Ichi has the most powerful zanapkuto in Bleach universe its Ichi who cant use his Zanapkuto to its true potential . Till that time when Ichi can use his zanapkuto ( Zangetsu ) to its full potential , comaprisions should cease ...

Why Ichi has the strongest Zanpakuto ?? I never seen a broken zanapkuto manifest back so fast ( Zaraki vs Ichi )
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Old 2006-11-29, 11:28   Link #37
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by hdx514
you know why your argument doesn't work? because i can apply in its entirety to kenpachi and end up with the conclusion that kenpachi would be defeated by bankai renji, which clearly would NOT happen. and you know why? because reiatsu isn't everything in battle, but it's damn near.
Ichigo is not Kenpachi they are similar type fighters yes, but they are different. Would Kenpachi have been slapped around silly like Ichigo was by a clown like Dol Doni? I highly doubt it. Ichigo is resilent and can summon huge amounts of reiatsu for a single attack. But Kenpachi is a berserker and literally thrives off of pain. He puts more strength into his attacks than shikai Ichigo normally does and also doesn't weaken from injuries nearly as much. I still don't believe that Shikai Ichigo is at Kenpachi's level yet. Their fight was only small glimpse of Ichigo's potential, not an indication that he's consistently equal with Kenpachi yet.


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then instead of eating his own words and going bankai immediately after seeing ichigo's ability byakuya would have "killed ichigo quickly with shikai". since you're so sure, would you mind explaining to me why byakuya would stay in shikai form until the very end against bankai renji, but would bankai against an enemy who he looks down more right after saying he'll 1000 years too early to see it?
Bloodlust. Renji was Byakuya's vice captain and a comrade. Byakuya was trying to be patient and have him give up rather than fight to the death. Ichigo was an intruder and also ordered to be captured or exterminated on sight by SS. Not to mention that Ichigo was goading Byakuya to use his full power. Byakuya obliged. He wanted to see Ichigo dead with extreme prejudice so he performed bankai.

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plus aizen worries about ichigo as a potential threat, not kenpachi. to be considered a threat to someone whose shikai owns bankais like nothing means having the potential to own bankais with shikai like nothing. so from what aizen's seen from ichigo he believes ichigo has the POTENTIAL to SOON reach a power level which would enable him to own hitsugaya, komamura's bankai with shikai. renji's bankai's not even worth considering. if you're a similar type of fighter to the hero, once you're bested by him you're history. since renji's popular, kubo has allowed him to tag along, kind of like d-roy.
If he worries about Ichigo so much, why didn't he just kill him when he clearly had a chance? Or why not let Grimmjow kill him? He certainly doesn't seem consider Grimmjow or any other espada a threat, but an unreleased Grimmjow can defeat Ichigo in bankai mode. Like you said, seems to me he's more interested in Ichigo's potential than anything. If he does consider Ichigo a threat, it's not because his shikai can own bankai, it's because he's an abnormally powerful vizard.

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Originally Posted by Geta Boshi
Ichi has the most powerful zanapkuto in Bleach universe its Ichi who cant use his Zanapkuto to its true potential . Till that time when Ichi can use his zanapkuto ( Zangetsu ) to its full potential , comaprisions should cease ...
He did use Zangetsu to stop the Sokyokou which supposedly has the power of a million zanapakuto. But he seems to be focusing on honing his hollow powers more than learning Zangetsu. I don't expect him to master use of his zanapakuto any time soon.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-11-29 at 11:42.
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Old 2006-11-29, 14:01   Link #38
hdx514
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Ichigo is not Kenpachi they are similar type fighters yes, but they are different.
point was, a close-range fighter without speed or kidou can own bankai renji. so the argument of shikai ichigo not having range, speed or kidou doesn't really work. in the end, who has greateest raw reiatsu? ichigo. who is the king of pain/injury resilience? kenpachi? forget about it. shounen hero 100%

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Bloodlust. Renji was Byakuya's vice captain and a comrade. Byakuya was trying to be patient and have him give up rather than fight to the death. Ichigo was an intruder and also ordered to be captured or exterminated on sight by SS. Not to mention that Ichigo was goading Byakuya to use his full power. Byakuya obliged. He wanted to see Ichigo dead with extreme prejudice so he performed bankai.
would make sense if byakuya used bankai immediately after ichigo goaded. instead he arrogantly told the kid that he was 1000 too early to see it. why didn't he oblige then? why did he suddenly swallow 1000 years and oblige right after getting attacke by ichigo's shikai? i'm talking about precisely this sudden switch of attitude, which makes little sense if byakuya thinks he could easily defeat ichigo with shikai

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If he worries about Ichigo so much, why didn't he just kill him when he clearly had a chance? Or why not let Grimmjow kill him?
aizen considers ichigo as a POTENTIAL threat. in his mind ichigo has the POTENTIAL to soon reach a threatening state. ulquiorra has already explained why he spared ichigo after his fist encounter with him:
1. ichigo has great potential/growth rate
2. but the current ichigo pose zero threat to aizen, so is not currently worth killing
3. ichigo's huge potential/growth makes him unstable, and if left alone he would most likely either self-destruct or become one of them

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If he does consider Ichigo a threat, it's not because his shikai can own bankai, it's because he's an abnormally powerful vizard.
aizen plans to become a hybrid himself, dunno if he's done it already but in the end both ichigo and aizen will have 3 released states:

aizen shikai - aizen bankai - aizen hybrid
ichigo shikai - ichigo bankai - ichigo hybrid

having the potential to become a threat to aizen, means having the potential to achieve a similar level to hybrid aizen in ichigo's own hybrid state. but, as seen from the arrancars, a hybrid's power depends on the power of the shinigami/hollow before hybridization. just think of hybridization as a further release beyond bankai. so, to become a threat to aizen, one would need to match him, shikai for shikai, bankai for bankai and vaizard for vaizard. not exact matches, but definitely not far off.
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Old 2006-11-29, 17:18   Link #39
kagato3
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Originally Posted by hdx514 View Post
point was, a close-range fighter without speed or kidou can own bankai renji. so the argument of shikai ichigo not having range, speed or kidou doesn't really work. in the end, who has greateest raw reiatsu? ichigo. who is the king of pain/injury resilience? kenpachi? forget about it. shounen hero 100%
What proof do you have that a close-range fighter without speed or kidou can own bankai renji? You can't use the Byakuya fight for this one as he is a fast mid range fighter that is an expert in kidou. the Ilruforuto fight is also not good proof ether since Renji took most of his damage when his power was limited to only 20% and his bankai was not what I would call "owned" even then, and unlike d roy he was not thought of as trash by the others.
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Old 2006-11-29, 18:14   Link #40
gameoffreak8
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The chapter is very good. My predict was correct that Nell is a girl.
Well, Ichigo's very stronger than Renji because he is a vizard while others are not.
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