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Old 2004-01-14, 19:34   Link #21
Kaka
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ooooo

but I didn't mean Turn A is bad~
cuz I haven't finished watching it, I can't make my judgement on it ^^;

but Z wasn't too slow to me though
it actually got my interest since the first few episodes~
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Old 2004-01-14, 20:58   Link #22
brightman
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Originally Posted by Kaka
ooooo

but I didn't mean Turn A is bad~
cuz I haven't finished watching it, I can't make my judgement on it ^^;

but Z wasn't too slow to me though
it actually got my interest since the first few episodes~
Oops, I meant to say *Double* Zeta...
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Old 2004-01-14, 23:25   Link #23
a_ndy
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I notice that a lot of fans who tote around their "old-school"ness tend to bash newer series like Gundam Seed and Gundam Wing a lot (ESPECIALLY Gundam Wing).

I realize that there are a lot of things that you can find fault with in Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed, but I think that it's important to look at what it is a particular series offers. Definitely older series like 08th MS, X, ZZ and the like are great and some might feel that they're a little thicker on the character connection and plot, but Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed have stellar animation and their action sequences are excellent. Some people might be able to shrug that off, but that's got to be an achievement worth something - and it's not like the plotlines flat-out-sucked either - I still got pretty attached to the Seed characters.

In defense of Gundam Wing, a lot of people have huge problems with the ridiculous power of the Gundams, which is an argument with definite merit. However, it's not something that's never been done before - in fact, I think most Gundam series have some point where the Gundam is trashing just about every enemy on the field (think Kira Yamato busting up the Bacows). At that point, the bad guys have to pull out something bigger and better. That's the way it worked in Wing too... albeit not quite as well. And in my opinion, a lot worse series have brandished the Gundam name (ie. Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket: an entire series about some little kid in a space colony... not to mention the mobile suit that the characters spent the entire series building [the Kaempfer] barely made an appearance).

Last edited by a_ndy; 2004-01-15 at 20:36.
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Old 2004-01-15, 00:15   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ndy
I notice that a lot of fans who tote around their "old-school"ness tend to bash newer series like Gundam Seed and Gundam Wing a lot (ESPECAILLY Gundam Wing).

I realize that there are a lot of things that you can find fault with in Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed, but I think that it's important to look at what it is a particular series offers. Definitely older series like 08th MS, X, ZZ and the like are great and some might feel that they're a little thicker on the character connection and plot, but Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed have stellar animation and their action sequences are excellent. Some people might be able to shrug that off, but that's got to be an achievement worth something - and it's not like the plotlines flat-out-sucked either - I still got pretty attached to the Seed characters.

In defense of Gundam Wing, a lot of people have huge problems with the ridiculous power of the Gundams, which is an argument with definite merit. However, it's not something that's never been done before - in fact, I think most Gundam series have some point where the Gundam is trashing just about every enemy on the field (think Kira Yamato busting up the Bacows). At that point, the bad guys have to pull out something bigger and better. That's the way it worked in Wing too... albeit not quite as well. And in my opinion, a lot worse series have brandished the Gundam name (ie. Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket: an entire series about some little kid in a space colony... not to mention the mobile suit that the characters spent the entire series building [the Kaempfer] barely made an appearance).
Hey hey, War in Pockets happens to be one of my favorite Gundams... So I don't appreciate it being call the worst (but I guess that's just your opinion)... That series focuses on characters and the horrifying experience of war, not on cool fight sequences and I thought it was a very touching experience and I generally perfer shows like that (not that eyecandy doesn't make me like a series either).

As for Gundam Wing, I have to admit that talking with some people who REALLY know Gundam and STILL like Wing has made me understand and appreciate that series a bit more. It's a superhero show at the core, and the point of that series is very different from those of the UC shows... It questions not why people have war and dislike peace but asks the question of HOW. The characters are stiff but they are meant to be that way. So I guess people just have to watch it from a different perspective, just like with Seed and G Gundam too. (though your point that other Gundam shows have Gundams that are pretty powerful is true, the ones in Wing are just downright overpowering, since other Gundams shows generally don't have single suits wiping out entire armies except maybe for G... And a squadron of BaGUEs is not really an army)

Oh and why oh why do people keep saying that 08th MS Team is old? Wing is even older, you know...
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Old 2004-01-15, 01:15   Link #25
method
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ndy
I notice that a lot of fans who tote around their "old-school"ness tend to bash newer series like Gundam Seed and Gundam Wing a lot (ESPECAILLY Gundam Wing).

I realize that there are a lot of things that you can find fault with in Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed, but I think that it's important to look at what it is a particular series offers. Definitely older series like 08th MS, X, ZZ and the like are great and some might feel that they're a little thicker on the character connection and plot, but Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed have stellar animation and their action sequences are excellent. Some people might be able to shrug that off, but that's got to be an achievement worth something - and it's not like the plotlines flat-out-sucked either - I still got pretty attached to the Seed characters.

In defense of Gundam Wing, a lot of people have huge problems with the ridiculous power of the Gundams, which is an argument with definite merit. However, it's not something that's never been done before - in fact, I think most Gundam series have some point where the Gundam is trashing just about every enemy on the field (think Kira Yamato busting up the Bacows). At that point, the bad guys have to pull out something bigger and better. That's the way it worked in Wing too... albeit not quite as well. And in my opinion, a lot worse series have brandished the Gundam name (ie. Gundam 0080 War in the Pocket: an entire series about some little kid in a space colony... not to mention the mobile suit that the characters spent the entire series building [the Kaempfer] barely made an appearance).

Animation is not worth that much. It is a given that animation techniques will improve over time, so why should that a plus for either series. Most of the plot line from Wing and the early part of Seed is taken from the earlier series. So you can't really say that they are better on that account. Why is 0080 a terrible series? Just because it doesn't have a lot of mobile suit fights it should be thought of any less of a series. The whole point of gundam was to show the effects of war on the people involved. It that way it completely acheived the ideal of gundam. We finally see the Zeons as the focus and see how the civilians are effected.

The problem with Wing is that there is no bigger guns so to speak except for Epyon. The only time the gundams are damaged is when the plot calls for it. Even in the first series the gundam took damage from other mobile suits.
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Old 2004-01-15, 10:21   Link #26
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Originally Posted by method
Animation is not worth that much. It is a given that animation techniques will improve over time, so why should that a plus for either series.
Well... Not really... Before the usage of stock footage was perfected animation actually looked quite stunning... And we still have some really crappy looking shows in the 90's and nowadays too.

And I don't like the Seed animation in most parts anyway, they spent far too much on CG and not nearly enough on character and mobile suit animation and the result is reused clips over and over and over again. And Wing is pretty average in its days.
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Old 2004-01-15, 17:16   Link #27
a_ndy
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Originally Posted by brightman
Hey hey, War in Pockets happens to be one of my favorite Gundams... So I don't appreciate it being call the worst (but I guess that's just your opinion)... That series focuses on characters and the horrifying experience of war, not on cool fight sequences and I thought it was a very touching experience and I generally perfer shows like that (not that eyecandy doesn't make me like a series either).
Yeah, I agree that focussing on the experiences of war is a worthy concept. I guess what I didn't like about War in the Pocket was that it focussed on this little kid who had this inordinately heavy impact on... just about everything. I seemed a little unreal to me, and thus, I found the story less compelling.

As for method's post that animation isn't really worth anything... I'm not quite sure how you can watch anime, or any kind of animation for that matter, and believe that the animation itself is a non-factor. Were that true, nobody would watch anime in the first place - instead we'd be reading about Char Aznable and Shiro Amada in novels. Creating an animation that is intense and elegant is equally worthy of praise as creating one that is emotionally invovling.

If one is going to argue that Wing and Seed are not animated well, then that perhaps is a matter of actual opinion. I personally like the clean, crisp colours and fluidity of the portrayed movement - I found it all very stylized.

Last edited by a_ndy; 2004-01-15 at 20:36.
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Old 2004-01-16, 03:33   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ndy
Yeah, I agree that focussing on the experiences of war is a worthy concept. I guess what I didn't like about War in the Pocket was that it focussed on this little kid who had this inordinately heavy impact on... just about everything. I seemed a little unreal to me, and thus, I found the story less compelling.

As for method's post that animation isn't really worth anything... I'm not quite sure how you can watch anime, or any kind of animation for that matter, and believe that the animation itself is a non-factor. Were that true, nobody would watch anime in the first place - instead we'd be reading about Char Aznable and Shiro Amada in novels. Creating an animation that is intense and elegant is equally worthy of praise as creating one that is emotionally invovling.

If one is going to argue that Wing and Seed are not animated well, then that perhaps is a matter of actual opinion. I personally like the clean, crisp colours and fluidity of the portrayed movement - I found it all very stylized.

I find it funny that you find that story that story unreal. You missed the point I was making. Animation alone shouldn't make a story. It should be good no matter if it is live action, in a novel, or animated. Anyway we do read side stories about Char and other characters in novelizations of the UC story. Its almost expected that a series made 25 years ago will not look as good as one made today. Why should it get praised for something that is expected?
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Old 2004-01-16, 22:21   Link #29
brightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ndy
Yeah, I agree that focussing on the experiences of war is a worthy concept. I guess what I didn't like about War in the Pocket was that it focussed on this little kid who had this inordinately heavy impact on... just about everything. I seemed a little unreal to me, and thus, I found the story less compelling.
The whole Gundam saga is about people doing the impossible. What's wrong with one kid affecting the war (and the kid is 11 which is the same age as V Gundam's Shakti and a year older than Gundam ZZ's Elpeo Ple/Ple Two--and they affected a LOT more than Al ever did)? Even Heero is only four years older than Al, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ndy
If one is going to argue that Wing and Seed are not animated well, then that perhaps is a matter of actual opinion. I personally like the clean, crisp colours and fluidity of the portrayed movement - I found it all very stylized.
Fluidity? I take it that you haven't watch Char's Counterattack or F91 right? Because if you watch those and rewatch Seed or Wing again you'll see QUITE a different between REAL fluidity and "budget" fluidity (for example they don't take the same poses over and over again and paste them in different places).
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Last edited by brightman; 2004-01-16 at 22:38.
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Old 2004-01-16, 23:31   Link #30
Kaka
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well ummm........

Char's counterattack and F91 are movies ^^;;;
I guess the producers just can't recycles the poses in a movie ^^;;;

btw.......I don't think W is animated well
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Old 2004-01-16, 23:41   Link #31
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Wing was good i liked it a lot it held a very important point. In Seed they did so much computer animation that i dont' really like.

Well 'Gundam' is what it says no matter what it is always Gundam that could beat or be equal against another 'Gundam' Nothing changes.
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Old 2004-01-17, 00:12   Link #32
brightman
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Originally Posted by Kaka
well ummm........

Char's counterattack and F91 are movies ^^;;;
I guess the producers just can't recycles the poses in a movie ^^;;;

btw.......I don't think W is animated well
So is the MSG Trilogy (which does feature some new footage... Though they don't exactly match up with those of the two I mentioned)

Anyway, like I said, Wing's animation is about the same as those in 0083, V, G, X and 08th MS Team, so I think they're really nothing to write home about. Endless Waltz on the other hand does look pretty good... And IMO Turn A's animation looks the best out of the TV Gundams, but due to the lack of battles in that series and the lack of CGI I think that's expected.

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Originally Posted by coldzero
Well 'Gundam' is what it says no matter what it is always Gundam that could beat or be equal against another 'Gundam' Nothing changes.
Well back in the UC days we could see a lot of great battles between Gundams and non-Gundams... In fact the greatest battles were fought between Gundams and non-Gundams... Gundam vs Zeong, Zeta vs The O, ZZ vs Qubeley, Nu vs Sazabi, Alex vs Zaku FZ, GP-03 vs Neue Ziel, Ez8 vs Apsalus III, V2 vs Gottrlatan... Need I go on?
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Old 2004-01-17, 15:26   Link #33
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No don't need a go on. Well to admit i have never watched the other Gundam series. I've only watched Wing, endless waltz and now Seed. And i like seeing Seed for it more action fighting. Wing had very little-to me that is.
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Old 2004-01-17, 23:03   Link #34
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Originally Posted by a_ndy
I notice that a lot of fans who tote around their "old-school"ness tend to bash newer series like Gundam Seed and Gundam Wing a lot (ESPECIALLY Gundam Wing).
damn straight. Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed are indded trash. However, dont be so quick as to assume that we hate all newer series. ∀ Gundam, which came out after Gundam Wing, is a great series. It also goes the other way. There are many older series not liked by these 'old-school' fans like me you speak of. ZZ Gundam, Gundam X, and G Gundam are also all bad. But they are not new series.

Quote:
Definitely older series like 08th MS, X, ZZ and...
08th MS Team is not an old series.

Quote:
Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed have stellar animation and their action sequences are excellent. Some people might be able to shrug that off, but that's got to be an achievement worth something
I quite enjoy action sequences, which is why 0800 is not one of my favorites (despite the fact that it is a good series). The action in Wing though is blah. Oh wow, 5 (overly) powerful suits piloted by (homosexual and overdramatic) young boys kill hundreds of leos with their hands behind their backs. whee. </sarcasm>

Quote:
in defense of Gundam Wing, a lot of people have huge problems with the ridiculous power of the Gundams, which is an argument with definite merit.
Hell yes. Look ^

Quote:
However, it's not something that's never been done before - in fact, I think most Gundam series have some point where the Gundam is trashing just about every enemy on the field.
have you ever seen Mobile Suit Gundam? 3 zakus were a match for gundam AND guncannon AND guntank.


Thats all I have to say in response to your post, which has to be one of the most errored and flawed in this thread. But hey, thats what editors are for .
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Old 2004-01-17, 23:57   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Helix
08th MS Team is not an old series.
Fair enough. Including it in that list was an oversight on my part, and I think I've been admonished enough times about that to realize that it's really not very old by any standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
damn straight. Gundam Wing and Gundam Seed are indded trash. However, dont be so quick as to assume that we hate all newer series. ∀ Gundam, which came out after Gundam Wing, is a great series. It also goes the other way. There are many older series not liked by these 'old-school' fans like me you speak of. ZZ Gundam, Gundam X, and G Gundam are also all bad. But they are not new series.
I've never seen ∀ Gundam, so I really have no point of reference from which to agree or disagree with your opinion, but I have a hard time understanding why you find Gundam X such a terrible series. In my opinion, it has all the makings of a great anime - endearing characters, an interesting plot, and respectable animation. And even with the powerful microwave cannon it's endowed with, the GX has nowhere near the god-like powers of the Gundam Wing Gundams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
I quite enjoy action sequences, which is why 0800 is not one of my favorites (despite the fact that it is a good series). The action in Wing though is blah. Oh wow, 5 (overly) powerful suits piloted by (homosexual and overdramatic) young boys kill hundreds of leos with their hands behind their backs. whee. </sarcasm>
Obviously one can easily get bored of watching Gundams take on Leos and Aires, but the fights between Gundams themselves are the great equalizer. In any case, surely if Gundam Wing fell short of providing exciting animation, Endless Waltz more than compensated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
have you ever seen Mobile Suit Gundam? 3 zakus were a match for gundam AND guncannon AND guntank.
I never claimed that a Gundam was exceptional in all situations. I said that most Gundam series have at some point displayed the Gundam in all its oh-so-powerful glory vanquishing everything on the field. Obviously the reverse holds true as well - every Gundam series has some point where the Gundam is defeated as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
Thats all I have to say in response to your post, which has to be one of the most errored and flawed in this thread. But hey, thats what editors are for .
That's all that I have to say in response to your post, which must carry the most hostile tone of any in this thread. But hey, I'm a forgiving kind of person.
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Old 2004-01-18, 00:22   Link #36
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Originally Posted by a_ndy
I've never seen ∀ Gundam, so I really have no point of reference from which to agree or disagree with your opinion, but I have a hard time understanding why you find Gundam X such a terrible series. In my opinion, it has all the makings of a great anime - endearing characters, an interesting plot, and respectable animation. And even with the powerful microwave cannon it's endowed with, the GX has nowhere near the god-like powers of the Gundam Wing Gundams.
Well, ∀ Gundam does have godlike powers though, but since Tomino made that series no one complains... (unless it has a character named Judau performing slapsticks)

As for Gundam X, yeah it's very unpopular among certain people for some reason (and it resulted in its cancellation), though I HAVE seen a lot of other people, old-school, Gundam "n00bs" and AU-fans alike enjoy that series too... And to this day I am still unsure of the EXACT reason why this is so... In fact its reputation is so bad that the great and wise Mitsuo Fukuda himself "quit" after watching one episode and laughed about how bad it was... Which is strange considering the fact that the latter half of Seed most closely resembles that of X...

Quote:
I never claimed that a Gundam was exceptional in all situations. I said that most Gundam series have at some point displayed the Gundam in all its oh-so-powerful glory vanquishing everything on the field. Obviously the reverse holds true as well - every Gundam series has some point where the Gundam is defeated as well. .
Yeah that's certainly true... Just about every series has some godlike Gundam and/or pilot except for War in Pockets (and it seems to me from this thread that people dislike that BECAUSE of that fact), and that includes UC... Though some series suffer more from this than others. But still, most of the time, unlike in Gundam Wing and G Gundam (and to an extent, Gundam Seed), they have backup, they don't blow up everything by themselves.
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Old 2004-01-18, 01:30   Link #37
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In G's defense it is a super robot series. Not a alot of people have seen X and only go off the fact that it was cancelled, so they assume it is bad. I think the reason is because there is not enough mobile suit action for them.
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Old 2004-01-18, 02:08   Link #38
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Originally Posted by a_ndy
That's all that I have to say in response to your post, which must carry the most hostile tone of any in this thread. But hey, I'm a forgiving kind of person.
Dont take it personally. Normally im a nice guy (if im allowed to give out the URL to other forums i'll even let you see) but when it comes to something I like, I get kind of agressive.

That goes to everyone out there too. This'll probably be the only thread you will see me in because i cant stand most other anime. So the nice me might not show in my limited stay here.

Now, back on topic...

Quote:
In G's defense it is a super robot series. Not a alot of people have seen X and only go off the fact that it was cancelled, so they assume it is bad. I think the reason is because there is not enough mobile suit action for them.
1) you'll need to be more specific than "super robot series" to defend something. What G gundam was was a repetitive, cheesy disgrace to Gundam. Much like ZZ.

2) Cant really explain it, just dont like X. Maybe it is the action thing.
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Old 2004-01-18, 14:14   Link #39
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Originally Posted by method
In G's defense it is a super robot series. Not a alot of people have seen X and only go off the fact that it was cancelled, so they assume it is bad. I think the reason is because there is not enough mobile suit action for them.
And Wing is a superhero series... Same thing there too... Like any Superhero the Gundams only get destroyed when the plot asks them to...

As for X, I'm referring to its horrible reputation in Japan that caused it to get cancelled in the first place... And Turn A has much less mobile suit action yet it is well liked by old fans (though commercially it did even worse than X).

Anyway, I can argue that most of Tomino's works are just as repetitive as G Gundam is, but I really don't want to get into it... I like every single Gundam anime ever made and I don't like bashing any of them.
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Old 2004-01-18, 19:04   Link #40
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G was the first AU series so to create its own place in Gundam history it went more in the style of the old super robot series. It threw the overt theme of war out the window and went with the noble war concept of the Gundam tournament. The problem most people have with G is that they don't look past the fighting and see the story of Domon and his fight with the Devil Gundam. Alot of the cheesiness is intentional like the suit designs and especially the King of Hearts attack and the ending. Yes G gundam can be repitive especially in the early part of the series with the gundam fight related episodes. That changes with the inrtoduction of the Devil Gundam and Master Asia.
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