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Old 2007-05-06, 11:25   Link #481
houkoholic
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Ren *is* powerful and has lots of potential, he is suppose to be the next successor in line of Enraiha and the Kannagi clan if something happens to Ayano, who is currently the rightful owner. The Golden Flame is supposed to be the highest flame rank you can obtain and has the greatest purifying effects on youma. However Ren's personality means that he has more control over his power as he can channel his feelings into his flames but he lacks the raw emotion to make the flames more powerful, unlike Ayano's short temper who just bursts out in rage but lacks fineness, which Kazuma has pointed out as well.

The Crimson Flame that Ayano showed is her true power, except she's not able to control it yet. Ayano is going to grow a lot as she teams up with Kazuma in the future.
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Old 2007-05-06, 11:43   Link #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
It must be an age thing. After watching anime for over 20 years, my thoughts on anime in general, have surely matured and I still stand by my position that you are lacking, yourself in being able to judge characters and people.
As interesting as this debate is, i would like you to refrain from using statements like these that automatically imply that you are right by default. Claiming that your thoughts are more "mature" than the next person, and that he is in turn lacking in his judgment abilities is a thin line to walk, especially since we are talking about personal preference in character archetypes and preferences between character exploration / character growth.

By all means - do continue the debate, just try to keep personally directed comments out of this, especially since there is no right and wrong as far as character preference goes
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Old 2007-05-06, 11:55   Link #483
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okey this is scary...i thought that ren sounded a bit girlish and to my surprise a quick background check shows that he's voiced by Rika Morinaga ("boku" to anyone who has seen rozen maiden)
/random fact of the day
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Old 2007-05-06, 11:58   Link #484
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
[All about Archer, deleted for brevity, read original 2-3 notes up]

I already stressed this point in an earlier post, but you're throwing up a blind shutter to it, and for that, I'm disappointed in you.
js, with all due respect, what makes you think I'm "throwing up a blind shutter" to it? What did this whole tirade have to do with the issue on hand? Or is this supposed to disprove my opinion that you're part of the testosterone front? I still say you are. Is it bad to be among them?

Being a "mature and mysterious" guy isn't incompatible with that at all. Still, you have traditionally had a strong preference for guys like these who are "kickass" and powerful. Seriously, you should sometimes READ yourself ... the same guy who has been writing stuff like this in this very thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife about "life-or-death situations in real life"
I've had several more situations, and I've always taken them on, head-on. When other people tend to get paralyzed with fear, or can't think of what to do, I'm too busy acting. This is why I know I can do a better job than 95% of those male leads in anime.
Bluntly put, I don't really care about your personal preferences in anime. More power to you. I say that in this thread and in many threads in the past you've always shown a strong affinity to powerful male leads. Nothing wrong with that, but sorry that I don't see any real indication to drop my "testosterone front" impression just because you ALSO have a preference for mysterious types

Quote:
I don't care about watching a character like Ayano grow up anymore, and have that story as the main lead. I far more enjoy watching characters reveal what's inside the facade they put out infront of everyone, and unravel that mystery air they have. I'm not looking for growth, but mystery solving!
And exactly that's your problem here. What the show is obviously about (primarily Kazuma-Ayano interaction and development) is at odds with what you want, and so you judge the show not by what it is, but how well it meets your demands. Prime mistake of anime/manga watching/reading. So you've got some bones to pick with Ayano, who is incompatible with what you want. Fine to complain about that. Still okay to complain about it three times. At the fifth time it's getting a bit annoying to people. You were over that point!

Quote:
I think you should go back and re-read earlier posts of mine from other shows so you can get an actual idea of where I'm coming from, rather than seeing what you want to see(a habit that too many people seem to have unfortunetly).
js, I'm sorry but your personal preferences really aren't important enough for me to put that much effort into rereading everything. I reread what you wrote in this thread, and it was very telling, so I stand by what I wrote. To use a (good) quote of yours, since I don't know you personally, I can't put it as a fact, but only as an opinion - however, a very well-sustained one. And for someone making the classical Prime Mistake (and even openly admitting it) your last poke was particularly ironic.
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Old 2007-05-06, 12:00   Link #485
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
okey this is scary...i thought that rin sounded a bit girlish and to my surprise a quick background check shows that he's voiced by Rika Morinaga ("boku" to anyone who has seen rozen maiden)
/random fact of the day
Ah I thought his voice sounded familar! btw Killz, youre avy cracks me up

I liked epi 4 alot, I like that we got to see some of what Ren is capable of.
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Old 2007-05-06, 12:34   Link #486
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Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
Spoiler for potentially novel spoilers:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-05-06, 12:34   Link #487
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@houkoholic: interesting info, cheers =)

@Taliesin:
Spoiler:


Well, Ayano can pay off the 100mil with her body for all I care. Wonder how many years that'll take?
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Old 2007-05-06, 12:40   Link #488
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Mentar your debating skills are nice, but your comprehension skills still need polishing here.

The main reason Archer lands a spot on my signature list, is because he was a man of MANY secrets. His past was littered with regrets, pain, hardships, losses, bitterness, and in the same way, redemption. He was the deepest character in the whole Fate/Stay Night story as far as I was concerned. Just look at his role in all three of the story arcs. As badass as Archer was, he was also the one with the most history to dig up. The most to flesh out as a character. I didn't care about Shiro, or Saber. They were in the way as far as I was concerned. I wanted to know about Archer. What was his real story? What was he going to do with his knowledge and past history, with his choices in the future? He was the most wise of all the servants. How did he get that way? What changed him, from his original ideals? That's the kind of stuff I live for. It's like reading a book, and discovering what makes a person tick.

I already stressed this point in an earlier post, but you're throwing up a blind shutter to it, and for that, I'm disappointed in you.

I don't care about watching a character like Ayano grow up anymore, and have that story as the main lead. I far more enjoy watching characters reveal what's inside the facade they put out infront of everyone, and unravel that mystery air they have. I'm not looking for growth, but mystery solving!

It must be an age thing. After watching anime for over 20 years, my thoughts on anime in general, have surely matured and I still stand by my position that you are lacking, yourself in being able to judge characters and people. I think you should go back and re-read earlier posts of mine from other shows so you can get an actual idea of where I'm coming from, rather than seeing what you want to see(a habit that too many people seem to have unfortunetly).

Will
First off archer was cool but he wasnt the main character. Second, watching the anime so we can see the characters mystery and background= one sided opinion and not all animes fit the mystery approach.
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Old 2007-05-06, 13:29   Link #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sade View Post
First off archer was cool but he wasnt the main character. Second, watching the anime so we can see the characters mystery and background= one sided opinion and not all animes fit the mystery approach.
I'm just stating a preference that I have towards anime. I didn't say it should be that way with all anime. Please re-read what I wrote. -sigh- And I realized Archer wasn't the main character. I wanted more focus on characters like him, but I'm growing tired of this discussion. And I will be stepping out as it's just causing bad blood.

Will
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Old 2007-05-06, 13:43   Link #490
zalem
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Heh, well the "testosterone front" thing doesn't work for me cause I'm not a guy. I like who I like based on their personality, how they react to situations, their complexity, etc. They don't have to literally kick ass to be a good character to me.

Ayano annoys me, but I'm willing to hang on and see where her character goes. If she stays the same until the end I'll be rather disappointed, but I don't think that's going to be the case. I've had series where I absolutely HATED the main character in the beginning and by the end I totally loved them. A good example would be Yoko from Juuni Kokki. Christ, I hated her so much in the beginning it's not even funny. But she grew up and matured. It's interesting to watch characters go through these changes. So it's never good to completely write a character off imho, especially if the series is still in the starting stage.

Anyway, for the sake of peace in the thread I will try to tone down my current dislike for Ayano. Who knows, maybe by the end of this I'll be with you guys loving her.
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Old 2007-05-06, 14:05   Link #491
PreSage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Also, I sense a significant testosterone overload in my Kazuma-avatar wielding anime colleagues. Guys, have you really missed Ayano's function as Kazuma's polar opposite? In other words, Kazuma couldn't come over as half as kakkoi if it weren't in contrast to Ayano. If you marvel at a great shadow, it's quite a bit silly to complain about the strong light. Because you can't have one without the other.

This show is a romantic action comedy, not Berserk 2 to live out male domination dreams
Before making such general statements, make sure you have the correct evidence to prove it so. For your information, I am not a guy .

With regards to everything else said about Ayano: (1) I did not say I hate her, I said I find her annoying at this point in time but I also did say that she has greater potential if she wasn't too overconfident in her fledgling abilities; (2) I also did say that I can see an underlying strength in Ayano and that she is probably smart enough to learn and change; (3) I have seen very good animes where the female protagonist can be the male's polar opposite without having to resort to Ayano's current ploy. So overall, I have pointed out her weakness as well as potential strengths.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Guys, Kaze no Stigma is no male-domination poser show, it's not in the beginning, and it won't be like this in the end. If you can't live with this without plastering Ayano moaning all over the thread after every single episode - alas, it's your prerogative. Just like it's mine to point out that your repetitive annoyance is an annoyance to others aswell - me included.

Why don't you take Ayano just the same way Kazuma takes her (and I do 100% aswell, by the way): With a good degree of amused tolerance? He doesn't hate her at all, and he's hardly annoyed. He loves to tease the heck out of her, and in fact his character interactions with her have gone a long way to define his character in the first place. That's why I actually like BOTH characters alot: I can identify with Kazuma's reactions pretty well, and Ayano's antics are both funny IMHO (especially her SD moments) and understandable to me. The backbone of the story is (and will be) the interaction between these two. I'd suggest to get used to it
If you're regarding things in a feminist point of view: Well, given how the female protagonist is made to look so inferior in both mind, personality and power, compared to her male counterpart, I would say that so far the image of a girl is being rather poorly portrayed. However, since feministic views do not serve this show - I would accept Ayano's function in the story. At first, the annoyance I find with her character is not her temper, misjudgement, etc. but more of her conceit. However, after seeing the third episode and realizing that arrogance is part of the issues dealt with in this series, I will say that I am no longer as annoyed because that is afterall part of the plot. But I will want this issue to be resolved later on. However, that's enough about Ayano for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Actually, as far as i understand, Kazuma is as strong as he is because he is a Contractor, not because of some 1337 training or whatever. While the power is undeniable, i doubt that making a contract with the wind spirit is worthy of so much praise as he seems to get.
I only go with what I know so far - and that's three episodes worth. I have heard the Contractor issue being mentioned in the episodes but I don't really know what it is aside from the fact that it was how he gained his power. However, if it is that easy to gain such phenomenal power by merely "signing" a contract, then everyone would be romping around as Contractors. I believe there must be more to it than that.

Also, are all Contractors on equal level? Or is there one that may be more powerful than the other? I ask because I get the impression that Kazuma is quite an exception (...not surprisingly ).
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Old 2007-05-06, 14:24   Link #492
lightbringer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreSage View Post
Also, are all Contractors on equal level? Or is there one that may be more powerful than the other? I ask because I get the implication that Kazuma is quite an exception (...not surprisingly ).
Err... I think you meant to write impression, not implication? lol.

Spoiler for power levels of Contractors:
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Old 2007-05-06, 14:37   Link #493
Tiamat's Disciple
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On the whole archer thing, i agree he was an amazing character, however i got the impression that he was Shiro in the future. There were so many hints towards that.

Back on topic, yeah it seems that he's the only contractor, but i wonder if any others will show up. Could be some interesting plot concepts of other contractors turned up. Especially if a new fire one turned up who wasnt a kannagi. That would throw a spanner in their works me thinks
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Old 2007-05-06, 14:39   Link #494
PreSage
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Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
Err... I think you meant to write impression, not implication? lol.

Spoiler for power levels of Contractors:
Yes...I meant impression . That's what happens when you multitask .

hmmm...DtB . *cough*
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-05-06, 14:56   Link #495
Tiamat's Disciple
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Not sure you can compare Kazuma to previous contractors, since the only one mentioned so far was the first head of the Kannagi House, over 1000 years ago. Until more is known about them, its pretty much impossible to compare them. Also i dont think you can really compare them, they're different elements, eaxh will have its own weaknesses and strengths. Some of the fire and winds weaknesses have already been shown in the current eps. Especially rp2
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:07   Link #496
lightbringer
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Originally Posted by Taliesin View Post
Not sure you can compare Kazuma to previous contractors, since the only one mentioned so far was the first head of the Kannagi House, over 1000 years ago. Until more is known about them, its pretty much impossible to compare them. Also i dont think you can really compare them, they're different elements, eaxh will have its own weaknesses and strengths. Some of the fire and winds weaknesses have already been shown in the current eps. Especially rp2
What he said. I'm not sure where to begin comparing them, since we know next to nothing about that dude from 1000 years ago. Maybe once someone finishes the novels, there will be some kind of insight ^_^;
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:31   Link #497
Mentar
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Ooookay. Time for me to take a step back. justinstrife is right, this is still an anime, and it wasn't my intention to start any personal feuds over anything like this. So, if I accidentally stepped on your toes, sorry for that. I guess I might have been a bit hasty

PreSage said something interesting:

Quote:
If you're regarding things in a feminist point of view: Well, given how the female protagonist is made to look so inferior in both mind, personality and power, compared to her male counterpart, I would say that so far the image of a girl is being rather poorly portrayed.
Since my initial intention was to voice some support in favor of Ayano after the barrage of disapproval she had been receiving before, and to turn my slightly inflammatory approach of before into something constructive, I'll try to explain why I don't think that she's "poorly portrayed", at least not in _my_ eyes.

Let's start with the obvious and already much-lamented downsides, which however are understandable in most aspects: Right now, she's extremely impulsive with very little self-control, with a flaring and violent temper. She quickly jumped to (wrong) conclusions, but I can't hold this against her: If I had been in her position, seeing two clansmembers killed immediately before my arrival, I'd have been convinced about the culprit aswell, especially since he didn't offer any explanation on who else should have been behind it. Ayano is extremely proud (therefore her "won't ever forgive him for that" outbursts), but on the plus side she is shown to be very unpretentious dealing with others - not just her classmates, but also with her clanspeople. ALL of them also seem to like her quite a bit in return, which is an indirect indicator in her favor. Therefore, I conclude that she does NOT consider herself to be a "better" or "higher" person compared to others, regardless of her special position. That counts for alot in my book. Also, regardless of her disobedience she displays genuine respect for her otou-sama, so she's brought up very properly.

Most of all, don't forget that she is YOUNG, much younger than Kazuma, a full 6 years! This alone makes any direct comparisons between them inherently asymmetrical. Where Kazuma has been hardened (and also a bit broken and tainted) by his life on his own after being cast out, Ayano was sheltered and fully integrated in a different environment. Based on the comments from the soon-deceased Kannagi spellcasters in episode 1, it seems that Ayano's exposure in _serious_ fights has been minimal so far, so she's just now beginning to get a taste of real life with her 16 years.

Time to list the major pluses which I attribute to her: She's very loyal and caring to her kind. She has a strong sense of duty (see her "give her life" tirade from ep4, before Kazuma smacks some sense into her). Most of all, she's positively courageous - immediately demanding to be told Ren's whereabouts to try a rescue, even though it was obvious that she was aware of the extreme risks. But most importantly, when it became obvious in episode 04 that she was outmatched and she was close to despairing, she still gritted her teeth and stood her ground.

Furthermore, she's proving smart enough to listen to advice, even from people she detests. Here we see that her stubbornness has limits - she didn't talk back when Kazuma berated her for her "give her life" idealism. In the past, she had good reason to oppose what Kazuma said and claimed. Now she showed that there's more to her than opposition by default.

Finally, I'll invoke an old fart privilege: In my life experience, people like her turn out just fine. Her emotional spine is strong, her convictions are still way too idealistic, but they will gradually be filed smooth by exposure to real life. She's got the right attitude, and she shows genuine care for the people around her. She'll get her fingers burned a few times, and she will learn her lessons and grow. People like her become wonderful friends you can rely on even when the going gets tough.

So, to sum things up, around people like her I'd very much react like Kazuma: Tease her rough edges and give her some hard times - but at the same time be around to help her out in times of trouble. But I _really_ like the person she is already - and, if you watch Kazuma closely over the first episodes, so does he.

EDIT: One addition to PreSage: Even though I feel I can empathize with Kazuma pretty well, he's got enough downsides of his own. What gives him a major advantage over Ayano right now is his experience (disregarding the "power" issue since we don't know about the price of being a contractor). He's pretty messed up inside in several aspects I don't wanna get into right now since the post is too long already. He might be the more popular choice for many people here, but I definitely would not consider him as universally superior to Ayako as you seem to make it sound...

Last edited by Mentar; 2007-05-06 at 15:42.
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:45   Link #498
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Originally Posted by PreSage View Post
Also, are all Contractors on equal level? Or is there one that may be more powerful than the other? I ask because I get the impression that Kazuma is quite an exception (...not surprisingly ).
I doubt it. I am willing to bet any other contractor would be capable of kicking Kazuma's behind. As we know, Wind magic is not suited for combat. Kazuma makes it work because he has the advantage of being contractor, thus enjoying a massive power advantage over his opponents. Once he would face an opponent of equal level (contractor) we would be down to the fact that wind=not suited for combat.
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:50   Link #499
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I doubt it. I am willing to bet any other contractor would be capable of kicking Kazuma's behind. As we know, Wind magic is not suited for combat. Kazuma makes it work because he has the advantage of being contractor, thus enjoying a massive power advantage over his opponents. Once he would face an opponent of equal level (contractor) we would be down to the fact that wind=not suited for combat.
I don't think so. He still managed to kick his father's ass (the current best enjutsu user in Kannagi) without using one bit of Contractor power.
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:54   Link #500
Tiamat's Disciple
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Not sure if she's six years younger, i thought she was 3 or 4 years younger.

Now onto your other points

In the first epo everyone including Ayano (with the exceptioon of the family head) had decided that Kazuma was the guilty party. As he said, its easier to blame Kazuma than to look for the real culprit.

As for that scene, she didnt really give him a chance to explain, she demanded an answer, cause she didnt like it she attacked. In that sort of situation id of tried to find out just what the hell had happened before jumping to conclusions, and im supposed to jump to conclusions cause im taurus

Jumping to ep3 its clear she thinks she's better when she comments on how he didnt attack her cause she's the weilder of enraiha. Its (again) her father who soundly corrects that. And the look she gives shows she clearly dosent really believe it yet.

Yes she is loyal, but so's a dog It all comes down to the way your trained, if your raised to believe that clan is everything, then it becomes instinct rather than thought.

She only listens to kazuma because she was told to, and as you said she's loyal to the clan, and it was an order from the clan head. She makes it very clear she dosent trust, even after going to save ren.

At the moment Ren shows more maturity than she does, and he's the youngest by loads.

I think peoples problem with Ayano (or atleast mine lol) is that she's TO annoying. They could have achieved the same effect with less annoyance. Ep4 is a good example of this, they still had the annoyance factor, but it was tamed down and i actually found myself warming to her.

Ayano reminds me of my first wife when we met. 16 going on 3.

I've no dount she will mature (she has to otherwise the ratings will plumet), but to be honest i still see Ren being a better future head of the family, not only because he's a direct descendent of the original, but also because from what we've seen so far he has alm ost all the qualities one needs in a leader.

All of that aside though, dont you think its time to move on from love x hate issues for a while. Looking back through the thread some heat is beginning to rise lol. It's obvious that some love Ayano and others hate her, and equally obvious that no one is going to change their minds any time soon. Also since the show has only just started, its worth (IMO) to just shelve that particular debate until a few more eps have aired and the characters have had a chance to show their stuff properly.

Or thats be what im thinking anyway

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Originally Posted by Hydex View Post
I don't think so. He still managed to kick his father's ass (the current best enjutsu user in Kannagi) without using one bit of Contractor power.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Tiamat's Disciple; 2007-05-06 at 16:03. Reason: to prevent a double post
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