AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Kanon

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-01-12, 09:02   Link #1
Ascaloth
I don't give a damn, dude
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 28
I know this part of the forum is specifically meant to cater to Kanon topics, but I feel that having such a thread, discussing a different but closely related anime series to Kanon, has its merits. There are certainly plenty of superficial similarities between Kanon and AIR; both are derived from KEY's games, both are works of Jun Maeda, both are adapted by KyoAni, and because of that, both have exceptional animation etc. etc.

However, there are also other, deeper similarities between Kanon and AIR that I believe is worth discussing about, and I also believe that such discussion would help viewers of both series to appreciate them all the more, through the act of putting one in the context of the other.

I refer you to this post I have made, in the "Kanon 2002 vs. Kanon 2006: Images, Script, Story, Animation, etc." thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
In actual fact, the choices Yuuichi makes in Kanon regarding each of the 5 girls is very, very similar to that of the choices made by another male lead in another anime series, in regards to the latter's 3 girls. Can anyone guess who that male lead is, and what that anime series is?

Yes. It's none other than Kunisaki Yukito, of AIR.

Yukito helps Kano exorcize the grief of her past life from herself, allowing her to shake off the baggage of the past and live free. He helps Minagi reconcil with her mother, and to reconcil with herself at her own guilt for Michiru's fate. And ultimately, he sacrifices himself to save Misuzu's life, and indirectly, to end the cycle of reincarnation and suffering that each of Kannabi no Mikoto's incarnations are fated to go through. In Misuzu's case, again there is the slight hint of romantic love involved; but once again, Yukito gets involved in the troubles of all 3 girls because, in the end, he's just like Aizawa Yuuichi; just isn't bloody heartless enough to stand by and watch someone suffer, without bloody well doing something about it. In the end, he doesn't really get any of the girls, does he? Nope; but he's achieved so much more, and changed the lives of three other people as a result.

That is the task lying in front of Yuuichi right now; except he's got to do even more work than Yukito, what with 2 more girls than Yukito to trouble himself about and all. Well, at least he isn't in any danger of having to sacrifice himself.

If you have watched AIR, compare it to the events of Kanon, and it would be easier for one to truly understand for the first time why Aizawa Yuuichi does as he does, and at the same time less likely to misunderstand Kanon as 'just another harem series, and a poorly-done one at that'. And that is why I have come to my conclusion that Yuuichi can achieve the best results for both Ayu and Nayuki, the 'best endings' if one may say so, without actually getting either of them as a romantic partner.
This is the kind of discussion I hope to encourage amongst the board's posters, through the creation of this thread. I await your response.

Last edited by xris; 2007-01-12 at 12:41.
Ascaloth is offline  
Old 2007-01-12, 14:56   Link #2
panzerfan
Name means little...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: A town that has been showered by snow...
Age: 29
Hmm...
Johann Sebastian Bach's Orchestral Suite No. 3, movement 2 in D major, BWV 1068 was not featured in AIR.
Johann Pachelbel's Kanon D-dur is prominately featured in Kanon 2006.
__________________

It would be enough for the depressing things in life to only exist in reality.
It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori



Last edited by panzerfan; 2007-01-12 at 16:00.
panzerfan is offline  
Old 2007-01-12, 15:48   Link #3
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
I'm beginning to think Kyo-Ani actually has that sort of ending in mind
Spoiler for just my speculation but spoilerific:

I suppose its a credit to KyoAni that even though I know the game, the TOEI, and the manga ... I'm still unable to discern where they're going to take the ending
Vexx is offline  
Old 2007-01-12, 16:01   Link #4
frad113
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Send a message via AIM to frad113
Just a quick thought: it seems as though Air's summer contrasting Kanon's winter is not coincidental. And I also just realized that Misuzu and Sayuri have the same seiyuu (but that's off topic anway ).
__________________
баня, водка, гармонь и лосось.
amenochi.com
frad113 is offline  
Old 2007-01-13, 23:32   Link #5
Richard 23
piko piko pikori
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western WA, USA
I would only add to this that Air and Kanon are both set in real world places in Japan:

Air

I know I have links to a page or two that show Kanon's real world places but I'll edit my post when I find them again... Or someone else will be gracious enough to dig them up.
Richard 23 is offline  
Old 2007-01-14, 02:09   Link #6
Raniie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
What do you get when you combine Sayuri with Mai? Tohno Minagi from Air.
Raniie is offline  
Old 2007-01-14, 02:16   Link #7
Skane
Anime Snark
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 31
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raniie View Post
What do you get when you combine Sayuri with Mai? Tohno Minagi from Air.
Michiru would be a better bet, since her VA is the same as Mai's. ^^; Sayuri's VA is the VA for Misuzu too.

Cheers.
__________________
Skane is offline  
Old 2007-01-14, 03:11   Link #8
Raniie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Well, wasn't really aiming at seiiyu similarity, but the actual character. Sayuri's character is cheerful, sweet, and caring. Mai's character is calm, timid, and her vocal tone, I guess. When you combine that, along with their facial figure, you get Tohno Minagi. Tohno Minagi has Sayuri's facial figure, personality, and hair, along with Mai's vocal tone and personality (even Mai's blue ribbon).

Spoiler for Sayuri, Mai, Minagi:
Raniie is offline  
Old 2007-02-26, 04:48   Link #9
shinn_asagiri
HEY MAN!!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Fuyou House. Im renting Rin's old room.
true, the face and the way she talks are similar to mai, but hair, personality and body are saiyuri
shinn_asagiri is offline  
Old 2007-02-26, 04:54   Link #10
Areguzanda
Ecchi!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oslo, Norway
Age: 26
I know one thing that AIR and Kanon (2006) have in common.
they are 2 of the best Anime Series I've seen ever!
__________________


Areguzanda is offline  
Old 2007-03-04, 02:17   Link #11
shiro83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Air = Summer
Kanon = Winter

Opps. It is mentioned already...
shiro83 is offline  
Old 2007-03-05, 14:13   Link #12
Dagger
Nitro+ fan
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hyogo
To be honest, I wish that KyoAni had been able to animate the AIR and Kanon stories in the order that they were made as game. AIR is so incredible that, as much as I enjoy Kanon, it's hard to avoid comparing it to the superlative experience I had when watching AIR.

One thing that handicaps Kanon in comparison to AIR (as an anime, not as an eroge) is the number of girls. The rather small number of girls in AIR made it much easier for me to suspend my disbelief, get totally immersed in the story and forget that I was watching game-based material. Although they took care of each girl's arc separately and had to take some liberties with what happened in the game, the anime progression somehow seemed quite natural to me. It might not have been a 100% perfect adaptation compared to Kanon 06, but it's because of this that it sucked me in so much.

In Kanon, I just can't forget that I'm watching a story that was adapted almost painstakingly from its game source. I think the 06 version could have been even better if they animated it in reboot arcs (like Higurashi) rather than try to weave the stories together. First of all, even calling it weaving is a bit silly because the show is still separated into clear arcs. Rebooting the anime each time would have at least gotten around the "what about Mai & Sayuri?" and "what about Shiori??" problem. KyoAni's writers have done some superficial attempts at making the girls' stories flow together, but they're always careful not to do anything that might seriously change the stories as they're presented in the game. I'm not going to get into whether this is a good thing or a bad thing etc., but if they wanted to take the route of reproducing the game as faithfully as possible, rebooting would've worked better IMO.

It might be just me, but it seems like the stories in Kanon lean more toward romance than the stories in AIR.
Dagger is offline  
Old 2007-03-05, 15:14   Link #13
Sai the Dreamer
Dead Sexy
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
But that doesn't necessarily work in Kanon's case. See...

Spoiler for Higurashi no Naku Koro ni last game:
AIR and Kanon are two completely different watching experiences. AIR leaves you with a warm feeling, accompanied by complex and omnipresent tragedies. Kanon is the opposite in that it leaves its mark as a cold beat to the side, along with simple, yet brutal, tragedies. Or in other words, I don't think Kyoani's really done anything wrong... most people only like either the AIR way or the Kanon way, not both (unless you're me).
__________________
Thanks to Nani for the scan!
Sai the Dreamer is offline  
Old 2007-03-05, 15:21   Link #14
Dagger
Nitro+ fan
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hyogo
Huh, that's an interesting point. It's true that I love AIR but appreciate Kanon. Now, if I'm more of an AIR person, how do you think I'll feel about Clannad?
Dagger is offline  
Old 2007-03-06, 08:15   Link #15
Sai the Dreamer
Dead Sexy
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
I haven't actually played any of the Key games, due to having fairly poor Japanese knowledge, but I'm guessing that'd be a different watching experience as well. It has even more girls than Kanon, however their stories apparently span across multiple years, so at worst the continuity errors would be resolved.
__________________
Thanks to Nani for the scan!
Sai the Dreamer is offline  
Old 2007-03-06, 08:16   Link #16
Ascaloth
I don't give a damn, dude
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magus IX View Post
To be honest, I wish that KyoAni had been able to animate the AIR and Kanon stories in the order that they were made as game. AIR is so incredible that, as much as I enjoy Kanon, it's hard to avoid comparing it to the superlative experience I had when watching AIR.

One thing that handicaps Kanon in comparison to AIR (as an anime, not as an eroge) is the number of girls. The rather small number of girls in AIR made it much easier for me to suspend my disbelief, get totally immersed in the story and forget that I was watching game-based material. Although they took care of each girl's arc separately and had to take some liberties with what happened in the game, the anime progression somehow seemed quite natural to me. It might not have been a 100% perfect adaptation compared to Kanon 06, but it's because of this that it sucked me in so much.

In Kanon, I just can't forget that I'm watching a story that was adapted almost painstakingly from its game source. I think the 06 version could have been even better if they animated it in reboot arcs (like Higurashi) rather than try to weave the stories together. First of all, even calling it weaving is a bit silly because the show is still separated into clear arcs. Rebooting the anime each time would have at least gotten around the "what about Mai & Sayuri?" and "what about Shiori??" problem. KyoAni's writers have done some superficial attempts at making the girls' stories flow together, but they're always careful not to do anything that might seriously change the stories as they're presented in the game. I'm not going to get into whether this is a good thing or a bad thing etc., but if they wanted to take the route of reproducing the game as faithfully as possible, rebooting would've worked better IMO.

It might be just me, but it seems like the stories in Kanon lean more toward romance than the stories in AIR.
Wouldn't doing 'reboots' only make the feeling of it being adapted from a VN even stronger? That would totally defeat the purpose of attempting to adapt a VN-based script into another medium in order to create the illusion of a living, breathing world; that was what KyoAni was really intending to do with their "interweave" aspect in the first place.

And if you're still under the mistaken impression that Kanon thus far has been seperated into 'clear arcs'......then you simply haven't been paying enough attention. Clear focus on one girl at a time, that I can agree with, but to pin the 'clear arcs' label on 2k6 Kanon is equating it to the 'modular' system used by the 2k2 piece of crap, which 2k6 is most definitely not; if you rewatch it from the start, you should be able to see more than one girls' stories advancing at the same time, for the most part of 2k6. This is in contrast to 2k2, where the focus shifts 100% onto one girl at a time, and all other girls are pretty much forgotten until their turn comes up; in other words, the girls in Toei Kanon were used only as plot devices, while the girls in KyoAni Kanon receive a constant dose of character development, all the way from the start up until the end of their story no matter what time or order in which it took place.

On the other hand, as much as I loved AIR (TV), I felt that KyoAni committed a Toei-level mistake in the Dream Arc segment; as impactful as Kano's and Minagi's stories were, they contributed almost nothing to the eventual main arc, which belonged to Misuzu's. Moreover, they were their own stories in their own right; the events of one arc hardly affected another arc. Because of that, I actually experienced the 'adapted from VN' feeling much more strongly during AIR than I ever did for 2k6 Kanon, at least in the Dream Arc. There were times when I felt that AIR (TV) would have been better off if they just axed the Kano and Minagi segments altogether.

Nevertheless, because KyoAni had all of 7 episodes to tell the stories of 3 girls (even less than what Toei had to work with for their worthless 2k2 adaptation of Kanon), and also because KyoAni didn't promise an 'interweaving' at that time, I'm willing to forgive them for that. Still, if I were to compare AIR (TV) and 2k6 Kanon, and judge them on the "living, breathing world" criteria, I'll say that 2k6 Kanon has been more successful at that.
Ascaloth is offline  
Old 2007-03-06, 08:25   Link #17
Sai the Dreamer
Dead Sexy
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
On the other hand, as much as I loved AIR (TV), I felt that KyoAni committed a Toei-level mistake in the Dream Arc segment; as impactful as Kano's and Minagi's stories were, they contributed almost nothing to the eventual main arc, which belonged to Misuzu's. Moreover, they were their own stories in their own right; the events of one arc hardly affected another arc. Because of that, I actually experienced the 'adapted from VN' feeling much more strongly during AIR than I ever did for 2k6 Kanon, at least in the Dream Arc. There were times when I felt that AIR (TV) would have been better off if they just axed the Kano and Minagi segments altogether.
Edit: Whoops, confused myself again. o_o; Disregard what was here.

I'd be lying if I disagreed with you. But it wouldn't be a Key game without the harem, would it?
__________________
Thanks to Nani for the scan!
Sai the Dreamer is offline  
Old 2007-03-06, 08:32   Link #18
Ascaloth
I don't give a damn, dude
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sai the Dreamer View Post
Edit: Whoops, confused myself again. o_o; Disregard what was here.

I'd be lying if I disagreed with you. But it wouldn't be a Key game without the harem, would it?
Planetarian, a KEY game released in 2004 after CLANNAD, featured only one girl, if you could call her that. Moreover, it had no choices; by KEY's own definition, it was a "kinetic novel", which meant it was just one whole story all the way.

Would you call it any less of a KEY game?
Ascaloth is offline  
Old 2007-03-06, 08:41   Link #19
Dagger
Nitro+ fan
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hyogo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
...in other words, the girls in Toei Kanon were used only as plot devices, while the girls in KyoAni Kanon receive a constant dose of character development, all the way from the start up until the end of their story no matter what time or order in which it took place.
That's my problem with it. Sure, they show up before their stories begin, and I can forgive the consecutive focus on one girl at a time as being a necessary evil, but the disappearance of Mai, Sayuri and even Shiori is awfully hard to ignore. If they'd had a longer episode run, they could've put more buffer episodes in between each story. I only mentioned rebooting as an approach because it removes the need for buffer episodes, and maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but that way I'd be better able to treat each story as a story in its own right and as part of a canon. I mean, if we're striving for adaptive accuracy, the game player would have experienced each story that way, wouldn't he?

In AIR I didn't mind Kano and Minagi disappearing because 1) they never actually went anywhere, technically speaking, 2) their problems were completely resolved (as opposed to, say, Shiori's), 3) Yukito was not portrayed as being particularly close to them at all, whereas Yuuichi was much, much more deeply emotionally invested in all the girls preceding Nayuki and Ayu.

In fact, the way Yukito--as a traveler--got involved with Kano and Minagi and eventually Misuzu reminded me a lot of episodic travel stories like Kino no Tabi and Mushishi. Perhaps that's why I accepted his interest in Kano and Minagi's troubles & his ability to solve them and felt that his interest in helping them was due to a general human goodwill & rapport & sympathy toward them rather than a more personal bond. Each time, in fact, his role was really to turn the girls toward those with whom they needed to bond most (which in every case ended up being female family members). In that way, he remained a benevolent outsider until he irrevocably plunged himself into the thick of things, deciding that he cared enough to go over his head & that there was no going back, by becoming Sora. Until Misuzu's condition became dire, he was able to remain a cool head and a relative level of detachment. That's why the brisk progression of arcs made absolute sense to me.

Kanon is inevitably much, much more personal. In AIR, Yukito meets with two "successes" before Misuzu's issues begin emerging full force. In Kanon, Yuuichi gets slammed time after time, but the limited number of episodes requires that he shift focus (if not recover?) very swiftly after each girl's story. And thus I find it harder to swallow the movement from girl to girl. Again, keeping them in the story after their individual stories ended would have done a lot to ameliorate this--and I'm not just talking one-line cameos from spirits.
Dagger is offline  
Old 2007-03-06, 08:41   Link #20
Mgz
Madlax fanboyz
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Age: 28
Send a message via Yahoo to Mgz
they have different setting, AIR setting is in a small coastal town, while Kanon 2006 is in a big metropolitan city
Mgz is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.