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Old 2006-12-03, 18:19   Link #41
Ero-Senn1n
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I guess that they should teleport to a person and gib him with the teleport to be a perfect killer move for a genin The way you do it in Quake
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Old 2006-12-03, 18:26   Link #42
Sazelyt
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To add to the above post:

We have seen that the chakra system can be altered in a way to change or disable its operation, so a jutsu that can achieve that can pretty much do the job for Kabuto. And if he cannot use chakra to heal himself, he is pretty much dead.

For an opponent like Oro, who should have a weak point (just like Sasori, Kabuto, Tsunade, or any other ninja), it is easier to defend that weak point when you can see the movements of your opponent compared to when you cannot see it, and Yondaime's jutsu can provide that advantage. Just a reminder, Kabuto vs Tsunade, and Kabuto appearing from the ground caught a Hokage and penetrated her body. Now imagine, Kabuto appearing with the same jutsu, just next to head, and penetrate it. A person who cannot dodge it before may not dodge the next time with a high probability.

Anyway, Yondaime's jutsu provides advantage to anyone who is intelligent and capable enough to use it, and it doesn't require you to be Hokage level, to fight and win against one. And, as a note, since it is getting understood the wrong way (although I don't know how), that doesn't mean a definite win, just a high probability of having a better chance of winning.
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Old 2006-12-03, 18:38   Link #43
MobiuS
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Wow. Its as if you arent reading my post. HIRASHIN DOES NOT DO THAT.

It puts you within extremely close proximity of the target AND THE REST IS UP TO YOU. I dunno about you, but Lee and Gai with weights off are beasts, and not considering the fact that they would open gates vs any kage level opponent ...

Oro was completely divided in 1/2 and he sewed himself up in combat. Um ... Its fair to say a lot of critical stuff was cut up and he didn't die. Unless a kunai has more destructive power than a Rasengan, I dont see how its going to pose as much of a problem as Naruto's full chest rasengan.


Hirashin is an amazing advantage but its not a guaranteed deal anyway you look at it.
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Old 2006-12-03, 19:30   Link #44
Sazelyt
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Yondaime's jutsu gives you an advantage no matter how you look at it. If there is a defense like Gaara's, you can use Yondaime's jutsu to go beyond that defense and have a clear attack. It can succeed or not, that is another question, but the chance of being successful should normally increase.

Oro is still human, so he should definitely have a weakness, and think of that, is it easier to defend that weakness against an opponent you can see, or against an opponent you cannot?

Anyway, if you can think of an answer to the above question, you can see what I try to mean: under normal conditions, which one has a higher chance of success, Kabuto running towards Tsunade and try to to hit her with his medical jutsu, or Kabuto appearing just behind Tsunade and try to hit her head with his medical jutsu?
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Old 2006-12-03, 19:45   Link #45
Suna no tate
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Um... you guys have to think about it like this. The technique is actually similar to the summoning techniques. I'm going to draw an illusion to nightcrawler from the xmen. if you are unfamiliar with him, you should know that nightcrawler has to be able to see where he is going in order to teleport. its not that he can't teleport blind. its just extremely dangerous as he may teleport himself halfway into a wall. Ok. That is the true danger of the jutsu used by the 4th. He can appear and instantaneously a blade or an explosive tag is already in a critical spot. He can more or less teleport that blade halfway into your kidney more or less. The blade movement can be instant. Yeah he may want to actually enjoy moving the blade and stabbing you, but in principle, he should be able to teleport where the blade instantaneously is stabbing you already.
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Old 2006-12-03, 20:58   Link #46
LostOnTheU-rturn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Um... you guys have to think about it like this. The technique is actually similar to the summoning techniques.
i believe i stated this somewhere. Yes, the databook says Hiraishin shares the same mechanism as summoning.

Quote:
I'm going to draw an illusion to nightcrawler from the xmen. if you are unfamiliar with him, you should know that nightcrawler has to be able to see where he is going in order to teleport. its not that he can't teleport blind.
correct, he needs to see in order to teleport. Yondiame need a tag in place to teleport to that place.


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its just extremely dangerous as he may teleport himself halfway into a wall. Ok. That is the true danger of the jutsu used by the 4th. He can appear and instantaneously a blade or an explosive tag is already in a critical spot. He can more or less teleport that blade halfway into your kidney more or less. The blade movement can be instant. Yeah he may want to actually enjoy moving the blade and stabbing you, but in principle, he should be able to teleport where the blade instantaneously is stabbing you already.
Nope, as he needs orientation, plus he doesn't teleport witht he kunai on your throat, he needs to stabd you, swing por thrust the kunai.
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Old 2006-12-04, 08:59   Link #47
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Um... you guys have to think about it like this. The technique is actually similar to the summoning techniques. I'm going to draw an illusion to nightcrawler from the xmen. if you are unfamiliar with him, you should know that nightcrawler has to be able to see where he is going in order to teleport. its not that he can't teleport blind. its just extremely dangerous as he may teleport himself halfway into a wall. Ok. That is the true danger of the jutsu used by the 4th. He can appear and instantaneously a blade or an explosive tag is already in a critical spot. He can more or less teleport that blade halfway into your kidney more or less. The blade movement can be instant. Yeah he may want to actually enjoy moving the blade and stabbing you, but in principle, he should be able to teleport where the blade instantaneously is stabbing you already.
I don't know about that. In the Naruto universe there appears to be some rule that prevents teleportation into solid objects. Take the Kuchiyose summoning for example. When Jiraiya summons a giant toad, he usually places the seal on the ground directly where he's standing, which means the toad will appear in the physical space that Jiraiya is currently standing on. But instead of winding up in the toad's stomach, Jiraiya ends up on top of the toad's head. Somehow, solid matter that is in the space of summoning is displaced to another location.
So when Yondaime teleports, the the minimum distance he can end up from his opponent is just shy of the length where the weapon would appear inside the enemy's body. That same natural rule probably protects Yondaime from teleporting onto weapon that might be placed over the seal.
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Old 2006-12-04, 09:52   Link #48
MobiuS
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I don't know about that. In the Naruto universe there appears to be some rule that prevents teleportation into solid objects. Take the Kuchiyose summoning for example. When Jiraiya summons a giant toad, he usually places the seal on the ground directly where he's standing, which means the toad will appear in the physical space that Jiraiya is currently standing on. But instead of winding up in the toad's stomach, Jiraiya ends up on top of the toad's head. Somehow, solid matter that is in the space of summoning is displaced to another location.
So when Yondaime teleports, the the minimum distance he can end up from his opponent is just shy of the length where the weapon would appear inside the enemy's body. That same natural rule probably protects Yondaime from teleporting onto weapon that might be placed over the seal.
Thats just your assumption. With all that smoke ... who knows if he just jumped up and landed on the head of the frog. And you know your whole materialization/displacement theory wouldnt work. Else the human teleports unto will be moved by your magical theory. And when I made the dagger reference, I didnt mean they teleport and the dagger is in his system. I meant teleport and the dagger is 1/3 an inch away from his body.
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Old 2006-12-04, 10:03   Link #49
MobiuS
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Anyway, if you can think of an answer to the above question, you can see what I try to mean: under normal conditions, which one has a higher chance of success, Kabuto running towards Tsunade and try to to hit her with his medical jutsu, or Kabuto appearing just behind Tsunade and try to hit her head with his medical jutsu?
Normal conditions as in ...
Your opponent teleports blind up to you. Do you:

1.) Stand there and take it like a man
2.) Do something.

You also forget. For opponents that are outclassed by someone's speed, theres essentially the same reaction to their speed closerange as people have with Hirashin. And they dont all turn up dead, somehow.
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Old 2006-12-04, 10:17   Link #50
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
Thats just your assumption. With all that smoke ... who knows if he just jumped up and landed on the head of the frog.
It's an assumption based on an observation of facts. I didn't just pull it out of thin air. How would Jiraiya have time to jump if the process is instaneous? The moment his hand hits the ground, the frog is there. It's not like there's a delay for him to jump. And what about when he summons Gamabunta? Does he jump 100 meters into the air? Not even the ninjas in Naruto jump that high.

Quote:
And you know your whole materialization/displacement theory wouldnt work. Else the human teleports unto will be moved by your magical theory.
..And that's impossible how? But if that "magical theory" (being that teleporation in itself is completely realistic) is too radical, maybe in the case of Hiraishin the user is automatically displaced a few centimeters from the nearest solid object? Is that idea too magical to be possible?

Quote:
And when I made the dagger reference, I didnt mean they teleport and the dagger is in his system. I meant teleport and the dagger is 1/3 an inch away from his body.
Actually I didn't write that with your comment in mind, but by your previous statements the blade being that close doesn't really accomplish much since the opponent will still have to make the motion to stab and if their reflexes aren't good enough, then the attack can be avoided.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-12-04 at 10:28.
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Old 2006-12-04, 11:24   Link #51
MobiuS
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
It's an assumption based on an observation of facts. I didn't just pull it out of thin air. How would Jiraiya have time to jump if the process is instaneous? The moment his hand hits the ground, the frog is there. It's not like there's a delay for him to jump. And what about when he summons Gamabunta? Does he jump 100 meters into the air? Not even the ninjas in Naruto jump that high.
I cannot believe you actually made this post. As if, man.

1.) How do you know its instantaneous? When he hits the floor, a seal is drawn and then a large amount of smoke disassipates from the seal and when it clears, Gamab is there. Now unless Im mistaken and this is insta-smoke, which creates itself and vanishes in 0.0000000000000000000000000001 seconds ... the process cannot be considerd as instant.

2.) As if you would say that about the jumping. I believe I saw Oro jump on Manda, and I believe Tsunade jumped that high(WITH A MASSIVE KNIFE). Point? Yes they can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
..And that's impossible how? But if that "magical theory" (being that teleporation in itself is completely realistic) is too radical, maybe in the case of Hiraishin the user is automatically displaced a few centimeters from the nearest solid object? Is that idea too magical to be possible?
Interesting. However when you stated it initially, you said objects within its forming space are moved. Which wont be true since targets will feel the move before Yondaime appears, essentially removing the sneak kill ability since they are alerted by the moving theory.


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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Actually I didn't write that with your comment in mind, but by your previous statements the blade being that close doesn't really accomplish much since the opponent will still have to make the motion to stab and if their reflexes aren't good enough, then the attack can be avoided.
Hows that different from Yondaime's situation? So in his case, Hirashin is an insta-kill, yet if the opponent prepares against it, it doesnt count?
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Old 2006-12-04, 11:56   Link #52
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
I cannot believe you actually made this post. As if, man.

1.) How do you know its instantaneous? When he hits the floor, a seal is drawn and then a large amount of smoke disassipates from the seal and when it clears, Gamab is there. Now unless Im mistaken and this is insta-smoke, which creates itself and vanishes in 0.0000000000000000000000000001 seconds ... the process cannot be considerd as instant.
Okay now you're reaching. The smoke is like gun smoke. Poof! It's gone. it doesn't linger around like dry ice fog. There's not enough time to jump 100 meters in the air before it evaporates. But even if there was, that doesn't change the fact that the teleportation process is instant and the summon appears in that exact spot. Are you saying that after Oro summons Manda, he has enough time to run out of the way of his body, then jump on his head?

Quote:

2.) As if you would say that about the jumping. I believe I saw Oro jump on Manda, and I believe Tsunade jumped that high(WITH A MASSIVE KNIFE). Point? Yes they can.
Oro never jumped onto Manda's head in the manga. Perhaps in the anime he did, but I don't think it was during the summoning in any case. Plus, Manda can lower his head to the ground being a snake and all. As for Tsunade, you know that she has superb chakra control that allows her to perform feats of strength. You think Oro or Jiraiya can destroy a solid wall with a single punch? Can they heft a 1-ton knife?



Quote:
Interesting. However when you stated it initially, you said objects within its forming space are moved. Which wont be true since targets will feel the move before Yondaime appears, essentially removing the sneak kill ability since they are alerted by the moving theory.
No. They occur simultaneously.

Quote:
Hows that different from Yondaime's situation? So in his case, Hirashin is an insta-kill, yet if the opponent prepares against it, it doesnt count?
I never stated Hiraishin was an instant kill. I was going by your logic.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-12-04 at 12:15.
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Old 2006-12-04, 13:09   Link #53
Suna no tate
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When I said the knife is instantaneously in position, I mean as soon as he appears, the knife could already be contacting skin ready to pierce. You guys refer to the speed of the other ninja that they can react, but speed counters speed. If the 4th hokage is really a kage, then more than likely he'll be abe to read Gai or lee's or whover's movent as they try to escape. The point is when someone of his speed has his opponent in a compromised position, i doubt there's too much they can do to get out of it. By the time he's that close, who is really fast enough to come up with a counter and escape? They'd have to be incredibly faster (like 10x) in a physical sense than he is considering that 1)he's a kage, and 2)he'd literally be breathing down their neck (in essence the distance is too short. Ie if I race a snail over 100 meters I beat it by nearly 100 meters. If I race a snail over 10^-9999 meters. It'll practically be a tie).

A good example would be the itachi vs kakashi fight where to kakashi it seemed like itachi literally appeared out of nowhere to stab him. Kakashi had almost no time to respond. And that wasn't even teleportation. That to me is the real issue. The movement is instantaneous and he is fast enough to prevent escape of his victim. There is no time or space to form hand seals and pure taijutsu won't be quick enough to save you. More than likely as soon as he sees you begin to twitch he teleports to where you are in an even more compromised position.

The best defense against it might be to do what gaara did or what kakuzu does and form some sort of inpenetrable barrier, but we don't know if 1)he can use rasengan during a teleportation event and 2) all the various material rasengan can punch through. Or maybe fool him into attacking an exploding clone or something (but then again he can always just teleport out of it when he senses trouble)
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Old 2006-12-04, 13:14   Link #54
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
Normal conditions as in ...
Your opponent teleports blind up to you. Do you:

1.) Stand there and take it like a man
2.) Do something.

You also forget. For opponents that are outclassed by someone's speed, theres essentially the same reaction to their speed closerange as people have with Hirashin. And they dont all turn up dead, somehow.
If you don't know where your opponent is and where he will pop up, then you can do nothing but wait until he appears next to you (or you can start something similar to Kaiten and keep your defense up until your chakra depletes).

Even if your opponent is the quickest, if the moment you appear also signals the moment your attack pierces your opponent, then your speed may not change the situation of being put in injury. You can avoid a serious injury or maybe you cannot.

As I said before we don't know how or where the person using Yondaime's jutsu will appear. We don't know if the technique is capable of letting you limit your opponent's movement. We don't know how much of your jutsu you can bring with you when you use that jutsu (teleporting with rasengan or medical jutsu, for instance). We don't know how close you can appear. I think you need to give a lot more credit to the jutsu itself and the advantages it can provide, even if indirectly, to any user who is capable of using it.
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Old 2006-12-04, 18:02   Link #55
tatami
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it all matters if the opponent knows about hiraishin.

if yes: then he will know that user must use a seal and act planned...or a katon jutsu will burn the seal...even moving different direction will save you...

if no: most probably opponent will be dead.
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Old 2006-12-04, 18:21   Link #56
astayanax
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The Hirashin is a great jutsu and in the hands of a skillful ninja is almost unstoppable once certain conditions are met. However, it isn't what I called the best jutsu out there (So far, nothing touch the MS) as:

- You need to get a tag on the victim if they are as good/better than you which as we know is no easy feat. If they are worse, then the tags doesn't need to be so vitally close.
- You have to guess the appropriate time to teleport in. You never know as you could teleport in to see a dead ninja and the room exploding in your face.
- You need to have enough skill to quickly take out the opponent before he has a chance to counter it; or even worse, kill you.
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Old 2006-12-04, 21:34   Link #57
MobiuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
The Hirashin is a great jutsu and in the hands of a skillful ninja is almost unstoppable once certain conditions are met. However, it isn't what I called the best jutsu out there (So far, nothing touch the MS) as:

- You need to get a tag on the victim if they are as good/better than you which as we know is no easy feat. If they are worse, then the tags doesn't need to be so vitally close.
- You have to guess the appropriate time to teleport in. You never know as you could teleport in to see a dead ninja and the room exploding in your face.
- You need to have enough skill to quickly take out the opponent before he has a chance to counter it; or even worse, kill you.
Which is what Ive been saying, yet these fanboys make it seem anyone with Hirashin instantly become perfect killers.
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Old 2006-12-04, 21:53   Link #58
Sazelyt
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Originally Posted by MobiuS View Post
Which is what Ive been saying, yet these fanboys make it seem anyone with Hirashin instantly become perfect killers.
You are right, saying Yondaime's jutsu giving clearly noticeable advantage to the user is equal to saying Yondaime's jutsu achieving instant kill. That is one of the reasons you continue to claim the same thing over and over again.
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Old 2006-12-05, 17:48   Link #59
Suna no tate
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One of the things I never understood is why the 4th never taught the jutsu to anyone. I mean there are lots of jounin in konoha and a few kage level ninja. Everyone is basically on the same team. For such a powerful technique to remain just in his hands seems foolish. (The same goes for the death summoning technique). I'm not for teaching it to genin, but to me if anyone, anyone is capable of learning it, that person should at least be able to apply and prove himself worthy of it so he too can use it in konoha's defense. Such a technique would certainly have prevented the escape of villains like itachi and would help konoha fight and protect itself and its allies. Dare I say it? The 4th was a fool! At least the other hokages had the sense to write their sacred and forbidden jutsus down in a scroll in case they were needed in the future. The 4th was foolish enough to let his jutsu be lost forever...
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Old 2006-12-05, 18:05   Link #60
Mangekyo
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How long was he hokage? (4th)

Maybe he forgot to write them down?
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