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Old 2006-12-08, 02:22   Link #101
Brutus
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never mind...

Last edited by Brutus; 2006-12-08 at 02:22. Reason: wrong thread :x
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Old 2006-12-08, 04:16   Link #102
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We have seen some real godly speed in this show. There are some people that are so fast that its easy to believe that as a Hirashin user materializes, their reflexes can allow them to attack the user and possibly kill them before they strike first.
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Old 2006-12-08, 15:16   Link #103
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
What if we are told that Yondaime's jutsu also allows the user to pop up anywhere he wants to around that tag? And, what if the user would use this to his advantage by restricting the movement of his opponent? As I said before, there are at least two unknows about the jutsu. In that case, its advantage might become overwhelming even against a speedy opponent.
That's a lot of "if", until we are told otherwise I'm merely using the known effect of this jutsu because it's just as easy to invent limitations.
But truthfully even if it allowed to teleport at sight without tag wherever the user wanted I would still stand to what I said, it would just make the situation that much more difficult, not impossible.
Hence my example of Nightcrawler who possessess an even higher teleportation that still doesn't make him one of the strongest mutant there is.

Quote:
I am not saying the speed difference will not affect the result, cause given all the conditions I am sure there would be some speed level corresponding to each user that will neutralize the advantages of that jutsu. But, "is it a level that is realizable?", that is something I guess we cannot know.
[/quote]
Well that's pretty much my point except I say that we do know : with a ninja such as Yondaime whose skills were incredible it was close to impossible to survive (except with some abilities like invulnerability/permanent armor, yaddayadda), against someone of inferior skills that depends of the relatives speed, reflexes and special ability of the opponent(s).
A simple example : Can Neji using the Byakugan activate a Kaiten at the moment someone appear next to him fast enough to deflect a blow?
And the simple answer is : that depends who's striking.

Quote:
We are addressing similar things. But, I am more interested in the unknowns related to the operation of Yondaime's jutsu. And, that is why I prefer to give more credit to Yondaime's jutsu and more advantage to the person who uses it.
Well that's where we differ, while I'm interested in the unknown of this jutsu I don't use it in a comparison thread... well it's unknown
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Old 2006-12-08, 20:04   Link #104
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
That's a lot of "if", until we are told otherwise I'm merely using the known effect of this jutsu because it's just as easy to invent limitations.
But truthfully even if it allowed to teleport at sight without tag wherever the user wanted I would still stand to what I said, it would just make the situation that much more difficult, not impossible.
Hence my example of Nightcrawler who possessess an even higher teleportation that still doesn't make him one of the strongest mutant there is.
Apples and oranges, Hunter. Even if they have similar abilities, you are still comparing characters from two different universes. I'm don't wish to enter a debate about it, but I'll just say that many of the strongest ninjas in the Naruto world have abilities that wouldn't be considered too powerful in the Marvel universe. Conversely, some of the more average characters in Marvel have abilites that would be devestating in the Naruto universe (Also, the character of Nightcrawler has a strict moral code which usually prevents him from using all the more lethal potential of his powers).

There is a scene from the gaiden that suggests that Yondaime may have a degree of control as to where he appears around his opponent using Hiraishin. When Kakashi is about to be struck by the Rock-nin, Yondaime appears in front of him just in time to grab Kakashi and save him. Furthermore, he appears in a position that allows himself to swiftly pull Kakashi away while avoiding the attack himself. That suggests a user can orient themselves into any position before they appear. After taking Kakashi back, Yondaime teleports again, only this time behind the same Rock-nin. I can't really say all this for sure since we don't know where the tag was placed and you can't really get a sense of the time elasping because they are just drawings, but Hiraishin may allow the user to appear anywhere around the enemy in any position. That adds to the unpredictability of the technique, but of course doesn't make it impossible to defeat.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2006-12-08 at 20:33.
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Old 2006-12-08, 20:38   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Apples and oranges, Hunter. Even if they have similar abilities, you are still comparing characters from two different universes. I'm don't wish to enter a debate about it, but I'll just say that many of the strongest ninjas in the Naruto world have abilities that wouldn't be considered too powerful in the Marvel universe. Conversely, some of the more average characters in Marvel have abilites that would be devestating in the Naruto universe (Also, the character of Nightcrawler has a strict moral code which usually prevents him from using all the potentials of his powers).
I wouldn't say apples and oranges. Merely apples and bigger apples.
I didn't mean to make any kind of vs. arguement between the characters of these universe (the Narutoverse would be obliterated), merely presenting a known story (and if you're a comics reader you know there are many others character -even without moral code- using this power) where teleportation was countered many times.

Quote:
[...]
After taking Kakashi back, Yondaime teleports again, only this time behind the same Rock-nin. I can't really say all this for sure since we don't know where the tag was placed and you can't really get a sense of the time elasping because they are just drawings, but Hiraishin may allow the user to appear anywhere around the enemy in any position.
The tag was placed on the Rock nin's foot when Yondaime grabbed Kakashi. Since Yondaime more than probably used the tag on Kakashi's kunai he also appeared behind him btw.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying Yondaime can't appear in whatever position he wants. Heck for all we know maybe this jutsu teleports Yondaime in a room outside of time where he can choose as many door as he had placed tags and have a perfect sight of what's going on in reality when he opens them before he jumps.
But that's pure speculation I'm just making up and that's more a Jojo's Adventure thing anyway.

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That adds to the unpredictability of the technique, but of course doesn't make it impossible to defeat.
Which is basically my main point.
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Old 2006-12-09, 02:05   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Apples and oranges, Hunter. Even if they have similar abilities, you are still comparing characters from two different universes. I'm don't wish to enter a debate about it, but I'll just say that many of the strongest ninjas in the Naruto world have abilities that wouldn't be considered too powerful in the Marvel universe. Conversely, some of the more average characters in Marvel have abilites that would be devestating in the Naruto universe (Also, the character of Nightcrawler has a strict moral code which usually prevents him from using all the more lethal potential of his powers).

There is a scene from the gaiden that suggests that Yondaime may have a degree of control as to where he appears around his opponent using Hiraishin. When Kakashi is about to be struck by the Rock-nin, Yondaime appears in front of him just in time to grab Kakashi and save him. Furthermore, he appears in a position that allows himself to swiftly pull Kakashi away while avoiding the attack himself. That suggests a user can orient themselves into any position before they appear. After taking Kakashi back, Yondaime teleports again, only this time behind the same Rock-nin. I can't really say all this for sure since we don't know where the tag was placed and you can't really get a sense of the time elasping because they are just drawings, but Hiraishin may allow the user to appear anywhere around the enemy in any position. That adds to the unpredictability of the technique, but of course doesn't make it impossible to defeat.

Exactly, You can't compare nightcrawler to narutoverse and vice versa. Magneto is one of the strongest villian in marvel. His magnetic ability is very powerful but it wouldnt be as effective in narutoverse as he would be in marvel just the fact there isnt any cars, trucks , buildings etc. made out of metalic in naruto world. Sure there is kunais and swords and other weapons .. but cant u just use shuriken kage bunshin and have the similiar effect? matter in fact , tenten's abilities would rival that. you cant compare the two characters from different universe.

Even if you did there is a major difference between the two other than whats already been pointed out. Nightcrawler goes by line of sight. Thats why he needs to beaware of his surroundings. Night crawler can teleport beyond line of sight. but the reason he doesnt cuz he can teleport into a wall cuz he cant see where he is going. He cant adjust during flight. Hiarshin is very different. He had no problem teleporting long distances. He had no problem teleporting toward 50 rock nins. If he couldnt adjust during flight, it wasnt a very smart idea from yondaime to teleport toward 50 moving nins. Specially when you dont know ur enemy.

There is enuff evidence in kakashi gaiden that proves this.
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Old 2006-12-09, 13:53   Link #107
s-class uchiha
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Originally Posted by Faktor-IV View Post
Exactly, You can't compare nightcrawler to narutoverse and vice versa. Magneto is one of the strongest villian in marvel. His magnetic ability is very powerful but it wouldnt be as effective in narutoverse as he would be in marvel just the fact there isnt any cars, trucks , buildings etc. made out of metalic in naruto world. Sure there is kunais and swords and other weapons .. but cant u just use shuriken kage bunshin and have the similiar effect? matter in fact , tenten's abilities would rival that. you cant compare the two characters from different universe.

I don't see how you couldn't compare the 2 universes. You need a point of reference, and its basically nature. When you look at the damage done to the surroundings you can kinda gage how ppl would fair against each other.

IMHO Nightcrawler would get totally owned are you crazy? So would Magneto. These guys are way too fragile. The ppl in the narutoverse can handle massive damage compared to the marvel universe (okay well just these two specifically).

Now if the Hulk, Silver Surfer, Galactus, even Prof. X were on the scene that's a little different.

back on topic The amazing thing about Hirashin is that it seems to give yondy the ability to be in multiple places at the same time. It's seriously a crazy jutsu.
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Old 2006-12-09, 14:13   Link #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s-class uchiha View Post
back on topic The amazing thing about Hirashin is that it seems to give yondy the ability to be in multiple places at the same time. It's seriously a crazy jutsu.
No it doesn't. It's just that the teleportation is a lot more eficient than just move to a place so it gives the impression that you're in multiple places gives you're so god damn fast in changing places !
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Old 2006-12-09, 16:43   Link #109
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Originally Posted by Uchiha_Gaara View Post
No it doesn't. It's just that the teleportation is a lot more eficient than just move to a place so it gives the impression that you're in multiple places gives you're so god damn fast in changing places !
Your right I should've added a qualifier... but its all the same.

If he can instantly move from target to target at 0 seconds, how long would it take him to move to 50 different targets? 0 seconds which is basically the same thing.

I have a feeling he can manipulate time somehow more so than space ( ie have time be a non factor), well actually probably a little bit of both - just saying there's not multiple copies of him floating around rather its prb him floating around multiple times at the same location in "stop time".

Someone mentioned being able to go to "time room" a la Jojo's bizarre adventure and go in and out. Perhaps yondaime is doing something like that so he technically wouldn't be at the same place at the same time...

This could be a small weakness i suppose... but prb not
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Old 2006-12-09, 17:07   Link #110
Suna no tate
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You guys fail to realize this. Jounin can move pretty quickly right? For example neji can move fast enough to knock down hundreds of kunai that have been lauched at him. Itachi's movements can appear instantaneous. Gai and lee have an apparent supersonic type speed which is great. But those things seems super fast to the untrained eye. Just look at lee's movements against gaara. Super fast. Still, here's the thing, kakashi was still able to see him, and so was gai. Specifically, kakashi was still able to follow his movements and so was gai and the 3rd hokage and kurenai. Or against sasuke, naruto's shunshin was so fast that sasuke could barely follow it. Anyway, my point is even with itachi's type speed, to some degree it can be followed with the eyes. He may do it really fast and you'll struggle perhaps, but you'll be able to follow it somewhat if you're a good jounin. However with teleportation, there is nothing to follow. You cannot read it with your eyes period. It is essentially light speed movement.

Ask yourself: who is the fastest guy in the naruto universe? can his movements be followed in even a slight degree? if the answer is yes to the second question, then teleportation should look all that much more advantageous now.

Teleportative movements cannot be followed with the eyes (even sharingan eyes), period.
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Old 2006-12-09, 17:21   Link #111
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@Suna no tate

still you cannot teleport instantly into wherever you want. no seal no teleportation.

throw kunai put a seal onto rock you need time to place kunai near opponent...that takes time and against supersonic people like gai or itachi you dont have the time to prepare a seal.

and even if you can see that lightning speed of gai ,itachi etc. your body cant react in time if you didnt before..

do all of you think like this:

a shinobi vs shinobi in a place. 1 on 1 sees each other ,sworn enemies...one of them knows hiraishin other shinobi ihas ultarsonic hiper speed. the second (maybe less) hiraishin user puts his hand in to his bag of kunais to reach the sealed kunai to throw he is dead cuz other shinobi had the time to cut his throath...yes hiraishin user saw the attack yet couldent react. hiraishin can be only effective if opponents speed is lesser then yours...
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Old 2006-12-09, 17:57   Link #112
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Originally Posted by tatami View Post
@Suna no tate

still you cannot teleport instantly into wherever you want. no seal no teleportation.

throw kunai put a seal onto rock you need time to place kunai near opponent...that takes time and against supersonic people like gai or itachi you dont have the time to prepare a seal.

and even if you can see that lightning speed of gai ,itachi etc. your body cant react in time if you didnt before..

do all of you think like this:

a shinobi vs shinobi in a place. 1 on 1 sees each other ,sworn enemies...one of them knows hiraishin other shinobi ihas ultarsonic hiper speed. the second (maybe less) hiraishin user puts his hand in to his bag of kunais to reach the sealed kunai to throw he is dead cuz other shinobi had the time to cut his throath...yes hiraishin user saw the attack yet couldent react. hiraishin can be only effective if opponents speed is lesser then yours...
I believe the seal is like an area kind of effect. Also you can throw several tagged kunais over the fighting area. And you can always use the sealed tags to supplement your own natural speed. Throw one infront and behind your opponent during taijutu and trap him. Run left and then at the last minute teleport right while he's still following your shunshin to the left. Point is, teleportation is instant and cannot be followed.

as for gai's speed, I think you agree with me that gai is the fastest person we've seen so far. yet in the oro invasion, gai killed i think the same number of ninja as kakashi, against kisame, kisame could keep up with him, even when gai broke gates kisame could roughly see his movements, and lee could see them well. Point is, if you're a hirashin user, you're probably fast enough to see them too. I' not saying the hirashin users would win every fight against someone on the level as gai (other factors play into fights) but I think on average they'd win 75 to 80percent of the time. The technique is just THAT advantageous. If you think about it, the 4th isn't really known for anything else. He was a god type ninja and yet was only really reknowned for 2 jutsus, one of which is only so so (rasengan)... Hirashin was enough to thrust him into the hokage seat. Without it, he'd have been an average ninja.
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Old 2006-12-09, 18:12   Link #113
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"I believe the seal is like an area kind of effect. Also you can throw several tagged kunais over the fighting area. And you can always use the sealed tags to supplement your own natural speed. Throw one infront and behind your opponent during taijutu and trap him. Run left and then at the last minute teleport right while he's still following your shunshin to the left. Point is, teleportation is instant and cannot be followed."

i dont think that your opinions are facts so area kind effect idea sux.you cant throw several cuz it takes time goddamit you could be dead by the time...

"as for gai's speed, I think you agree with me that gai is the fastest person we've seen so far"
i think itachi is faster?
" when gai broke gates kisame could roughly see his movements"
it wasnt kisame.
"if you're a hirashin user, you're probably fast enough to see them too."
no you are not. hiraishin is just a jutsu no related to speed of user.
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Old 2006-12-09, 18:54   Link #114
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As for the area affect, the fourth doesn't appear standing on the seal. He appears kind of next to it in a position he designates. What makes you think he can't choose how close or how far And I'm not sure, but I think he used one tagged kunai to rescue both kakashi and attack the ninja. Seems like an area effect to me.

Why would itachi be faster than gai? You have no indication of this. The times when we have seen him move, his movements have been sort of average. One was when he ran and kicked kurenai, another when he was running to escape from jiraiya's summoned frog, and another was when the itachi clone (granted its not itachi) fought kakashi. None of those movements seem to indicate exceptional speed. Perhaps you're referring to the offspeed confusing motion's he did. Having kakashi look one way, and then stabbing him in the back? Thats very good. But we've seen others do that to kakashi and kakashi do that to others. For example, zabuza did the very same thing to the very same kakashi clone, and then kakashi did the very same thing to the very same zabuza clone. So how can you say "itachi is exceptionally fast, faster than gai"? kakashi did say something about the speed of itachi's jutsus but that doesn't reflect physical speed which is what this discussion is about. With gai, we've at least been given a direct reference to his speed (ie kisame's statement). So rethink that statement in lieu of the facts. Perhaps itachi physically isn't as fast as you believe he is.

In addition, believe it or not, those WERE itachi and kisame controlling the bodies, which includes thoughts and statements. If kisame says too, fast he meant too fast. Period. I don't know how fast kisame is, but I do know that the real kisame said gai was too fast, regardless of the body he was controlling. Kisame said it.

If you're a hirashin user, you're probably not a genin. You're probably not a chuunin. You MAY be a high level jounin. My point is that if you're a user of hirashin, you'll probably be skilled in other areas and will be able to fight jounin in terms of speed. Even kurenai could see itachi's movement and kick (thus she was able to block it). Very rarely does one jounin completely outclass another jounin in terms of speed. In fact, often a jounin can't even completely outclass a genin in terms of speed (ie naruto vs jounin level itachi clone)
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Old 2006-12-09, 19:26   Link #115
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we dont know requirements for hiraishin as for speed hand seals speed is so fast not even kakashi could see those if i recall correctly...
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Old 2006-12-10, 17:52   Link #116
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Fast movement is indeed similar to Hiraishin in close range. This is just like Oro suddenly appear on the bridge to join Kabuto. I agree with LostOnTheU-rturn.
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Old 2006-12-16, 22:54   Link #117
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teleportation beats speed...
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Old 2007-08-09, 03:42   Link #118
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Hirashin seems to be good for suprise attacks, if the enemy know the attack is comming it should be close to the same thing as pure speed.

Jiraya, he was the teacher of the 4th, I wonder if he could have learned hirashin.
4th learned Jiraya's moves, maybe Jiraya learned more than just rasengan from him when he developed his new jutsus.
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Old 2007-08-09, 03:56   Link #119
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I will say speed is better than teleportation. Because teleportation has a major disadvantage. Once you do it, it takes time to actually do it again(like about 3 seconds). Now if someone is fast enough to dodge the first attack, they are basically conserving energy. The ninja who teleports continues to use up stamina or energy then they eventually grow tired. While the fast ninja is also tired, but not as tired as the teleporting ninja.

Plus a fast ninja may be able to stop the seal from being completed in time.
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Old 2007-08-09, 04:19   Link #120
warmachine v2.0
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Speed or Teleportation.....

Speed probably, you may be able to teleport, but are you really fast? I mean, honestly I hate to do a DBZ reference, but a Frieza who did Instant Transmission probably would still get beat by SSJ2 Gohan soooo. Sure a person could teleport behind you, but what if your fast enough to counterattack? Like Lee(no weights) vs. a teleporting Chouji, Lee would probably be able to beat Chouji still, albiet with a little more effort. But hey, give someone already fast teleport and it would be a different story.
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