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Old 2009-08-30, 21:03   Link #2301
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The really important aspect: She was used to having the final say. It was up to HER to decide what was good for Hayate, and thus, good for them. She had no qualms to decide "I won't let you go anymore" without even consulting him. The sad irony is that she was actually right - but the fact remains that IT WAS HER DECISION AND SHE DIDN'T BOTHER TO GIVE HAYATE A SAY IN IT.
I don't think the problem is about her trying to have the final say, but simply not wanting to be with those parents. She didn't want to be alone either; so, she didn't want Hayate to leave. Additionally, she didn't want him to be with those terrible parents either.

As for her behaviour, she was angry. Why exactly was she angry? We don't know. But that anger is the reason why she was being unreasonable.

Take a look at the scene right after Hayate leaves. Athena was crying there, not because Hayate defied her, but because she was alone again since Hayate left.

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The fight broke out when Hayate continued to refuse Athena. She had decreed that he was to remain in the castle, but for once he didn't listen. This made her angry, angry enough to attack him physically, but he STILL didn't yield. She started to plead, but confused, he held his ground, and this plunged her into a deadly rage (c186).
Athena was angry from the very beginning. She began attacking him because she couldn't understand why Hayate would want to live with those parents (most likely, personal feelings of hers involved), not because he was defying her. In fact, he only defied her once, this being when Hayate told her she didn't have any parents. And this is when Athena started attacking him seriously.
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Old 2009-08-30, 21:24   Link #2302
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
As for her behaviour, she was angry. Why exactly was she angry? We don't know. But that anger is the reason why she was being unreasonable.
Actually I think it's pretty clear why. She gave Hayate something that was important to her, and that she expected him to treat as dearly as the ring he gave her, and then he goes and blithely, and ignorantly, lets his dad hock the ring. So she was upset that he could be taken advantage of so easily, and that he was unwilling to see his parents for what they were - and worse that he wanted to go back and see them when they treated him so badly even while she was willing to give him everything.

My .02 on the matter...

Note, I'm not a big A-tan fan, in fact I have to think that she needs someone who can heal her more than Hayate is capable of doing. On the other hand, I can certainly understand where she was coming from.
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Old 2009-08-30, 21:37   Link #2303
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Actually I think it's pretty clear why. She gave Hayate something that was important to her, and that she expected him to treat as dearly as the ring he gave her, and then he goes and blithely, and ignorantly, lets his dad hock the ring. So she was upset that he could be taken advantage of so easily, and that he was unwilling to see his parents for what they were - and worse that he wanted to go back and see them when they treated him so badly even while she was willing to give him everything.
I thought the same, but I don't think what happened was the whole reason behind her anger. She already knew Hayate's parents were trash; so, there shouldn't have been any surprise about what they did. The fact Hayate's father pawned that ring seems to be the big factor behind her anger. But, what meaning has that ring got for her? She seemed to have been carrying it with her. So, perhaps, it was quite important for her. However, we can barely speculate about it, because we do not know more.
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Old 2009-08-31, 00:53   Link #2304
Rah
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Like Mentar said, she was shaping him in her ideal of a man (or servant, whatever the reasons..).

We don't know what the ring represented to her so we can't really blame it for her burst of anger, but we can't exclude it either. She did live in an incredible place and was (well still probably is) filthy rich. If what Hina said isn't wrong, then Athena's parents could possibly be similar to Hayate's, in the regard of loving something else more (something material probably) than them. So from who did she get the ring? Did she lie about it's value if it was from her parents just to justify her anger? Or....

Anyway, Hayate was always meant to be a good slave. It's ok if he never finds love for the rest of his life, or dies a miserable and pathetic death (like tripping over his shoelace off a cliff).
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Old 2009-08-31, 06:19   Link #2305
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I think a lot of you are arguing over a really basic point, but you aren't quite communicating it to each other. So let me put it into general terms for you all...

Is it better to be ruled by a dictator if that person is benevolent but will control your every action, or is it better to have freedom and risk being wrong sometimes and dealing with the consequences either way?

There is no real right answer, it all depends on your point of view. Hayate seems to like having someone controlling in his life for whatever reason (be it Nagi or Athena or whoever). I'm not entirely sure why that is, because his parents were clearly not ones to take care of him or be controlling of his life in any way and it seemed like if his parents weren't stealing his money then he would do all right for himself. But since he started working for Nagi, and being a butler again, he's really seemed like he needs someone like that now and when she fired him he was completely lost and confused.

We can't really know yet what Athena's motives and ambitions are. We don't know the true depth of her feelings, both current and past, enough to make a good judgment. I still believe that Hinagiku would be much more beneficial to Hayate but that's only my opinion.
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Old 2009-08-31, 06:59   Link #2306
Rah
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Hayate needs a sex change, and all the girls need to become lesbians. Then they all go live together in the RG.

Anyway, he won't end up with any girl other than Nagi, unless they somehow drift apart, or she dies, or whatever...

Now after the freggin' dinner thing, Hina is either going to baaawwww blood, or stay composed, whatever.. it really doesn't matter. What's important now are the stupid necklaces(gems, mini dragonballs, whatever..) and who gets them. If Hayate loses his necklace then Nagi becomes homeless by default, correct? Well, if Mikado gets them all it doesn't count I guess. He wants to bring Yuki back and start a zombie apocalypse, and Nagi couldn't be happier to see her zombie mom with Saturn's ring spinnin' around her head. Anyho, whoever opens the royal garden is irrelevant since anyone can access it after it's open again (in the beginning Hayate went there without needing anything, though there might be some sort of stupid restriction now, like only the one with the stones can enter..).

If there isn't any restriction why the hell would they even fight over them. In the coffin is probably that M... whatever his name is dude, that turned everything he touched into gold, and one of the girls is probably his descendant or something. His corpse probably still works as a gold maker that's why Athena stopped Hayate from opening it, since he would become an instant golden statue (and who would want a Hayate statue anyway??).

Ehhhh, well, I could write more stupid shit, but I'll let someone reply first. And after that more story telling! Horraaaay!
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Old 2009-08-31, 07:05   Link #2307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Hayate needs a sex change, and all the girls need to become lesbians. Then they all go live together in the RG.

Anyway, he won't end up with any girl other than Nagi, unless they somehow drift apart, or she dies, or whatever...

Now after the freggin' dinner thing, Hina is either going to baaawwww blood, or stay composed, whatever.. it really doesn't matter. What's important now are the stupid necklaces(gems, mini dragonballs, whatever..) and who gets them. If Hayate loses his necklace then Nagi becomes homeless by default, correct? Well if Mikado get's em all then it doesn't count I guess. He want's to bring Yuki back and start a zombie apocalypse, and Nagi couldn't be happier to see her zombie mom with Saturn's ring around her head. Anyho, whoever opens the royal garden is irrelevant since anyone can access it after it's open again (in the beginning Hayate went there without needing anything, though there might be some sort of stupid restriction now, like only the one with the stones can enter..).

If there isn't any restriction why the hell would they even fight over them. In the coffin is probably that M... whatever his name is dude that turned everything he touched into gold, and one of the girls is a descendant or something. His corpse probably still works as a gold maker that's why Athena stopped Hayate from opening it, since he would become an instant golden statue (and who would want a Hayate statue anyway??).

Ehhhh, well, I could write more stupid shit, but I'll let someone reply first. And after that more story telling! Horraaaay!
I want it, tell me where it is and I'll stole it

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Hope not, but let me add this. They meet again after x years, and then Hayate is shown holding / playing with his son on the last page. Whose is it? .... get the guns ready.. hahaha!
OK, my gun ready, wait! which one better?, Rocket Launcher,AK47,Shotgun or *50 Magnum (this last one is my favorite, It can kill elephant and send a human flying high) May I ask for what?


UOH! F.F..F..First Aid Kit!! where it is?! I need it now!! (bleeding profusely)
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Old 2009-08-31, 07:10   Link #2308
Rah
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Awwww, I didn't make it in time fixing grammar stuff~ Why'd ya quote zat? BBoooooo!

--Anyway, why would you want a Hayate statue? It will bring you misery and misfortune, even though it's made of gold.

I guess my post failed to inspire, for now..
Hope this doesn't continue to drag on with who's he gonna pair up.

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UOH! F.F..F..First Aid Kit!! where it is?! I need it now!! (bleeding profusely)
Hahahaha, don't die dude! MEDIC!!!! MEEEEDDDIIICCC!!!
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Old 2009-08-31, 09:18   Link #2309
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Originally Posted by Rah View Post

Hahahaha, don't die dude! MEDIC!!!! MEEEEDDDIIICCC!!!
I'M HERE!!! (well, i'm a medical school student so it's not that far off )

Well, i'd say Athena has a very weird way of showing her love, i guess. She has a preference/requirement for a boyfriend and she shaped Hayate to be just that.

And one more thing, IMO Athena has an advantage on getting Hayate moreso than the others, because she is one of the earliest impact of his life. You can probably dismiss Hina, Ayumu etc.'s feelings as normal schoolgirl "love" (although we don't know about their feeling too deeply), but Athena's a bit different i guess. Then again, i'm really having a hard time imagining a plausible Athena ending...
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Old 2009-08-31, 10:06   Link #2310
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PHEW! SAVED!!
I'm lucky, Indoviking have a moe-sinfectan and ecchi-bandage with him
Almost pass out because that pic.
next time I'll put a filter before opened a spoiler picture

Poor Hina, I feel sorry for her,...a bit.. and feel happy for this chapter. At least the misunderstand will cleared for a bit. Hoping for next 'Clearing Misunderstand' moment

btw
It's pretty rare to see development in this manga storyline, did Hata-sensei Noticed that one of my comrade watch over him through sniper scope? geez, what a noob to being noticed by mere human

Spoiler:

Last edited by surerman; 2009-08-31 at 10:26.
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Old 2009-08-31, 10:09   Link #2311
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Originally Posted by IndoViking View Post
I'M HERE!!! (well, i'm a medical school student so it's not that far off )

Well, i'd say Athena has a very weird way of showing her love, i guess. She has a preference/requirement for a boyfriend and she shaped Hayate to be just that.

And one more thing, IMO Athena has an advantage on getting Hayate moreso than the others, because she is one of the earliest impact of his life. You can probably dismiss Hina, Ayumu etc.'s feelings as normal schoolgirl "love" (although we don't know about their feeling too deeply), but Athena's a bit different i guess. Then again, i'm really having a hard time imagining a plausible Athena ending...
You can say that Athena savedd Hayate's life... becouse of her Hayate now is who he is (and that person is loved by many girls XD).... she was the one that teached him about buttler work...she made his body strong with some kind of magic spell/spirit.......... and she gived him love and was very careing about hayate

Hayate was an idiot back in past which resulted to their parting....but well now after those years he knows that she was right and he was wrong... and he sees how much athena gived him and how she carred for him.... not mention that they both stayed together for few months alone.... (they shared their first kisses together... slept in the same bet together why holdign hands..... anyway they had lots of fun)

Hayate was stupid and ended up kinda on street again.... with dept of his parents on himself.... no wonder that Athena was kinda cold towards him... becouse she doesnt know that hayate has no girlfriend and that he still loves her ^^ (only matter of time)... Athena knows that Hayate now is Shanzeins buttler so she cant be happy in public of seeing him... but lets look how she acted in her room alone (out of sight of machina)... she was blushing touching her lips and saying hayates name.... later lied on her bed and was thinking about hayate and how he grown up (not meniton that she is wondering if he would be with her till now if they didnt parted in such cruel way.... so I guess she might feel guilty of it too)

So well Athena changed Hayates world ^^ and becouse of their parting Hayate was able to meet with Hina after all.... the same hina was able to meet athena...

Anyway I guess the thing that Hina knwos Athena is for the purpose for her to tell Athena why she is pushing Hayate back even throught he still loves her... this might be the trigger inside Athena of her heart change towards Hayate... now she would know that after 10years he still thinks about her and loves her.....
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Old 2009-08-31, 11:27   Link #2312
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Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Hayate needs a sex change, and all the girls need to become lesbians.
OR... the girls have the sex change. Then they all buff up, and we get HaHa's Bizarre Adventure.
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Old 2009-08-31, 19:58   Link #2313
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Thinking back to the The end of the world arc, Athena surely feel like a dominatrix existent. She told Hayate exactly WHAT to do, they get along fine but it seems Athena seems to be in charge of everything all the time. When Hayate show sign of rebellion, she discarded him.
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Old 2009-08-31, 21:03   Link #2314
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Athena surely feel like a dominatrix existent.
Then why is Hayate the one who is always dominating in the h-dōjins, and Athena is the one in chains?
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Old 2009-08-31, 21:33   Link #2315
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eh...

About Athena having a dominatrix complex or whatever, well, it might be because she's just used to being in a position of power, being filthy rich and all that. The "ojou-sama" condition, as the Japanese might call it.

But as for that final fight between Hayate and Athena... Aren't you guys making too big a deal out of this? Hayate was confused because he didn't yet realize that his parents were trash - which is completely understandable, he's like 7 years old and his parents are the world to him.

Athena fell in love with Hayate because he saved her from her loneliness. Living in that huge castle all by yourself has to be seriously depressing. She loved him enough to entrust something very important to her. She knew what trash Hayate's parents were, and she must have been watching every moment as Hayate's father tricked Hayate into giving him it. We still don't know exactly what it was, but that scene probably horrified her, enough to make her lose her rationality. So she rages at Hayate when he comes back, Hayate doesn't understand, and the two fight.

What you guys seem to be forgetting is that Athena is a kid, just as young as Hayate was. She's a lot smarter, she's a lot stronger, she's a lot more responsible, but she's a kid nonetheless. Yes, she lost her temper, but isn't that what kids do? I personally felt so bad for Athena when she called Hayate's name after he walked out the door.


Now back to the chapter 239, and what might happen afterward. Though I felt horrible for Hina - her expression on the last page is just heart-breaking - I thought this was a good direction for the manga to move in, because it shows Hayate isn't a frigging wimp like in typical harem mangas.

What I'm most interested in is the consequences Hayate's statement will bring. Hina will probably be shell-shocked, at least at first. I predict that the next chapter will show Hina lying in bed, having walked back home in a daze. Maybe afterwards, after discussing this with Ayumu perhaps, she'll turn competitive - that would certainly provide for an interesting twist. The downside would be that, this would turn Hina into a major rival heroine, which I personally think she never was meant to be, but that's just my opinion.

Who else will find out? Certainly not Negi - it's much too early for Negi to find out that Hayate does not in fact love her. Maybe Ayumu, possibly Maria - Maria finding out would certainly help in keeping it a secret from Negi, though I can't imagine how she'd react. Sakuya, who just arrived a few chapters ago, might find out. Or Hina might decide not to reveal it to anyone. Who knows?

As much as it saddens me to say it, I highly doubt Athena and Hayate will end up together. This is a harem manga, not a love story. She'll probably disappear by the end of her story, one way or another. Then again I'm secretly wishing that Hata-sensei will surprise me, as he so often does. Seriously, this arc has been one of the most shocking I've seen yet. First it turns out that Hina knows Athena, and then Hayate actually decides that he loves Athena? And right at the moment Hina is about to confess to him? Wow, just wow. I'm loving this right now.

Oh, and I thought I saw someone above complaining about how Hata-sensei is never clear about "like" and "love" - well, don't be so confused. "Like" and "love" is an English thing. When someone says "suki" in a Japanese manga, it almost always means that he/she has feelings for the recipient. Given the timing of the statement in this chapter, it's clear that this translates into something along the lines of: "She's...she's the one I love."
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Old 2009-09-01, 01:13   Link #2316
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by xellos2099 View Post
Thinking back to the The end of the world arc, Athena surely feel like a dominatrix existent. She told Hayate exactly WHAT to do, they get along fine but it seems Athena seems to be in charge of everything all the time. When Hayate show sign of rebellion, she discarded him.
Surely she ordered him around, but it is not that surprising since he technically is her butler, right? Moreover, considered Hayate's intelligence and naivety, can you tell me what Hayate can do by himself, not to mention his knowledge about reality? Athena has a much more clearer vision than him. That was why beside being his lover, Athena was also his teacher (maybe parent as well) and taught him "WHAT" he should learn to make the best out of him.
Can you tell me the wrongness of what Athena did to Hayate that give you the bad impression?

She discarded? If I'm remember correctly, Hayate was at fault, not hers. She wanted and still want Hayate to be by her side, that mean she did not wanted to "discard." He did not believed her and chose his parent, and with her clouded mind, what do you expected her to do? Use her power to force him to stay in the castle? Or tell him to leave the castle? Or apologize to him?
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Old 2009-09-01, 02:34   Link #2317
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One interesting thing: on the page full of "all the others," Nagi is conspicuously absent. (Obviously because Hayate sees Nagi as a kid. Duh. But there's another reason.)

While Hayate loves Athena, he owes Nagi his life as well, and he's fully aware of that, too. I don't think he'll make the same mistake of abandoning someone that important to him twice. Just loving someone isn't enough. I don't think Hayate would abandon Nagi like that, especially with all the nonsense about the stones hovering in the air as well. (Which sounds like the Contrived Plot Device to force the conflict between the 3 parties.)

And yeah, while Athena did make lovey-dovey faces at first, she's all about the stones.

Bummer for Hina, though. You could sense the self-destruction coming. Then again, when someone is trying to unburden their mind of a heavy problem and confide in you, do you *really* think it's the best time to confess your love?!? Jeez.

Long run, I think my money is still on Nagi... because everyone else is saying Athena. (Even Hayate. lol.) I was rooting for Hina, but she has flamed out spectacularly, and will now fade into the background with the Hamster. *sigh*

Nagi will win out over time, because as the youngest, time is on her side, and it will probably take some time to clean up this mess. (And it will take time for Hayate to stop seeing her as a one-way trip to prison.)
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Old 2009-09-01, 04:10   Link #2318
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Bummer for Hina, though. You could sense the self-destruction coming. Then again, when someone is trying to unburden their mind of a heavy problem and confide in you, do you *really* think it's the best time to confess your love?!? Jeez.
For her, it is. We know that Hayate admires and trusts Hina, otherwise he wouldn't have opened up like this. The problem is that Hayate has given up on the idea that Hina might like him (since, according to Maria, Hina is too great for that - Hayate wasn't too happy about this response), so first, he would need a credible idea that she DOES love him after all. A serious talk is better than anything lighthearted.

What self-destruction though? Hina will persevere, one way or another. And I certainly don't see her out of the race at all. Maybe she'll actually officially ENTER the race now

Quote:
Long run, I think my money is still on Nagi... because everyone else is saying Athena. (Even Hayate. lol.) I was rooting for Hina, but she has flamed out spectacularly, and will now fade into the background with the Hamster. *sigh*
Er, what? ... If there is one character I'm giving 10:1 on NOT getting Hayate, it would be Athena. It wouldn't fit on more levels than I can shake a stick at. If anything, this revelation is way too early to be helpful for Athena. Or do you think that the mangaka puts the climax in the middle of the show, way before the resolution? Not me.

But it's an interesting question. Who believes that after this chapter, Athena will be Hayate's end match? Hands up!

My call: Hina will probably be fully back in contention in no time (if she ever left it). Possibly already in c240.

Quote:
Nagi will win out over time, because as the youngest, time is on her side, and it will probably take some time to clean up this mess. (And it will take time for Hayate to stop seeing her as a one-way trip to prison.)
I can imagine that Hayate will remain to care for Nagi, but I fail to see her as romantic competitor. She's not on Hayate's radar at all, and I have difficulties seeing that a time jump would change that. I'd say she's someone to care for, not someone to love.
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Old 2009-09-01, 04:26   Link #2319
Rah
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Love or no love Hayate won't leave Nagi. He's too selfless to do such a thing. And in many mangas there are such scenarios where love looks impossible, but it still slowly develops over time. For example, after the main character changes his views, his perspective of things, his opinions of people, whatever...

Give me a viable scenario where Nagi doesn't get hurt by Hayate leaving her, and fully accepts such a thing (there are no misunderstandings, she doesn't die or disappear).

Only after you think of something good that would allow them to both happily part ways, can you think about any other girl (Hayate won't leave Nagi no matter what the reason, no matter how much it pains him, yadda yadda) <- I'm saying that Nagi has to tell him that it's okay to leave, or chase him out, or whatever scenario you can imagine (not like she can or will do such a thing without some kind of absurd development. Plus, if she acts selfless Hayate will notice, because he's the most selfless bastard out there. He has a radar for such things). You need to answer this~ can you? Lalala...
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Old 2009-09-01, 04:35   Link #2320
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Give me a viable scenario where Nagi doesn't get hurt by Hayate leaving her, and fully accepts such a thing (there are no misunderstandings, she doesn't die or disappear).
Examples just off the top of my head: Hayate turning out to be family to Nagi, return of someone else turning out to be more important to Nagi (e.g. Himegami), or simply Nagi growing up and realizing that he really likes someone else, giving her blessing and releasing him. And finally, Hayate ending with someone else and still caring for Nagi as butler.

I do agree that this would require some major developments to occur. However, I wouldn't put it past Hata to do so. We'll see.
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