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Old 2010-03-03, 18:01   Link #5981
telamont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
you CANNOT want to sacrifice yourself and live at the same time. It's not possible. It is _mutually exclusive_.
Mentar, to that I say... you CANNOT sacrifice yourself without wanting to live at the same time. It's not possible. You CANNOT have one without the other.

The very concept of sacrifice is "to give up something precious for the sake of others." The more precious it is, the greater the sacrifice. It is precisely because Athena had all these regrets, this strong desire to live that makes her decision to die for the sake of Hayate and the others a sacrifice. It is precisely why her decision can be considered noble and worthy of admiration.

Without a strong desire to live, her decision to die for others would have carried no weight. It would not have been a "sacrifice". It would have been a girl tired of life, deciding to...

a. Throw her life away at the first opportune moment.

b. End her life in a gainful way.

Take your pick. I look forward to your outraged rebuttal.
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Old 2010-03-03, 20:17   Link #5982
Mentar
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No point. What you write sounds like some 3rd-rate romance fiction, a great melodrama of life depicting a heroine filled with noble spirit on a glorious mission... but it has not even a remote resemblance with the story whatsoever. Athena didn't sacrifice herself - why not? What changed her mind? Your glorified laudatio gives no answer. At the time she told Hayate about her plan, she was desperate and downtrodden, in fact VERY tired of life as you put it. She considered it just punishment for her. It doesn't explain her change of heart and the rekindling of her determination afterwards.

Sorry, but no cigar. Not even a cigarette.
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Old 2010-03-03, 20:52   Link #5983
zodanhko
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First saying Athena didn't try to sacrifice herself, believing she wasn't even trying since there was no evident "IMO." Now believing she had no desire to live in the first place.

I don't think there is a sufficient way to prove someone wrong according to his logic and belief, since excuses and ideas can easily be made according to one's liking, if that case had not happen...in this case Athena had to die for her worth to be commended.
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Old 2010-03-04, 02:42   Link #5984
Mentar
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Last attempt before it's probably time to adjust my ignore list. Sorry, but at the moment it feels like discussing the fine points of a Grand Cru with an anti-alcoholic.

I'll match your statements with what I really said (see my 4 easy-to-understand points above)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
First saying Athena didn't try to sacrifice herself,
Not true. I wrote that Athena IMHO genuinely wanted to sacrifice herself (see point 1), but...

Quote:
[...]believing she wasn't even trying since there was no evident "IMO."
Yes. In my opinion there is no indication that her active sacrifice and unsummoning of herself and Midas has commenced. Like I wrote in 2), she was collecting herself and trying to find closure within her, but in 3) she had a change of heart, and so never got to start. I do accept Musouka's interpretation that Athena's thought process happened _during_ the sacrifice/unsummoning as possible, and in this case, she interrupted it eventually to cry for Hayate's help. This would be the started-but-didn't-finish case.

Quote:
Now believing she had no desire to live in the first place.
Not true. I wrote in response to telamont that Athena was desperate and downtrodden (that should be clear to EVERYONE reading the respective chapter) and that contrary to his implied suggestion that Athena had a "strong desire to live" at that point, she was much closer to
"tired of life", and there (extra addition now) close to option b).

To translate that to simpler English: It's not like she had a death wish when she announced her intention to Hayate. It's not like she _wished_ to die. But she wasn't exactly brimming with determination to survive either. She felt that sacrificing her life was the best option left for her, a "punishment she brought on herself" (her own words, which we still don't understand yet).

Quote:
I don't think there is a sufficient way to prove someone wrong according to his logic and belief, since excuses and ideas can easily be made according to one's liking, if that case had not happen...in this case Athena had to die for her worth to be commended.
I never said that either. Pure invention. What I rather said was:

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.


If you want to continue this discussion, please be so kind and stop trying to summarize or interpret my position, you're making too many mistakes doing that. Instead, at least quote me.
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Old 2010-03-04, 04:32   Link #5985
Used Can
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I think we're all going in circles here. Now, for facts we all agree on we can list:

1. Athena in the end didn't want to die, and she wanted to be saved.
2. She didn't have to sacrifice herself because she was saved.

Now, Mentar's argument can be summarised in 2 points:

1. Athena wasn't fully determined to sacrifice herself, since in the end she changed her mind.
2. Athena shouldn't be praised for something she didn't do, since in the end she was saved.

The other side of the argument says:

1. The fact Athena wanted to be saved doesn't mean she wouldn't have sacrificed herself, if she had needed to do so.
2. That alone is enough to praise her.

In the end, I think both arguments meet an end-road, since we cannot tell what would have happened if Hayate had been unable to save her.

Personally, my opinion is very similar to that of Game8910. I believe that more than sacrificing herself, Athena truly wanted to be saved. In fact, I'll say that she never really wanted to sacrifice herself; she was willing to do it, but what she truly wanted from the very beginning was to be saved. However, at the same time, I also believe she would have sacrificed herself had she had to do so.

I think that the difference between "willing" and "wanting" is very important for this argument, as it breaks the contradiction Mentar pointed out. For example, I may be willing to buy my friend's used car, because he needs the money, but at the same time, I may also really want to buy a new car. The fact I want to buy a new car doesn't mean I won't buy my friend's used car. In fact, this is were sacrifice can be seen, since I'm willing to give up what I want to do, in order to help my friend. Naturally, it may happen that my friend wins the lottery, he no longer needs the money and I can end up buying a new car as I wanted. Now, is my intention less commendable because, in the end, I didn't have to buy my friend's used car, despite the fact I was perfectly willing to do if my friend needed the money? That, I believe, is a matter of personal opinion.

I think the same thing can be said about this situation. Naturally, there's still the big "what if," since we cannot say with certainty what would have happened if Hayate wasn't able to save Athena. However, the "willing to do" vs "wanting to do" can be seen perfectly. And just as in the previous example, I believe that whether Athena should be praised or not for her actions comes down to the point of view of each reader.
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Old 2010-03-04, 07:55   Link #5986
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Not true. I wrote in response to telamont that Athena was desperate and downtrodden (that should be clear to EVERYONE reading the respective chapter) and that contrary to his implied suggestion that Athena had a "strong desire to live" at that point, she was much closer to
"tired of life", and there (extra addition now) close to option b).

To translate that to simpler English: It's not like she had a death wish when she announced her intention to Hayate. It's not like she _wished_ to die. But she wasn't exactly brimming with determination to survive either. She felt that sacrificing her life was the best option left for her, a "punishment she brought on herself" (her own words, which we still don't understand yet).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Not true. I wrote that Athena IMHO genuinely wanted to sacrifice herself (see point 1), but...
"Tired of life" means that she had no reason to live for. And I think when you said you genuinely wanted to sacrifice pretty much meant that she desired "a death wish." I don't think she ever "wanted to sacrifice" herself and die off; and in contrary, I believe she had a strong desired to live, and she wanted to be rescue by Hayate from the beginning.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I never said that either. Pure invention. What I rather said was:

A genuine, good intention in itself is laudable. A genuine attempt to fulfill it, even more. But it is NOT on the same level as _doing_ it. And if you CHANGE YOUR MIND because you don't want to do it after all, we should tone down the praise on the mere good intention significantly. You should be honest enough to do so.

Completed Good Deed >> Tried and failed Good Intention. Period.

Spoiler for Used summed the points:

Because of the differences in the our perspectives, the only way to prove that she was willing to do it, and for you to accept it was for her being dead.
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Old 2010-03-04, 19:06   Link #5987
telamont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
No point. What you write sounds like some 3rd-rate romance fiction, a great melodrama of life depicting a heroine filled with noble spirit on a glorious mission... but it has not even a remote resemblance with the story whatsoever.


You do not disappoint Mentar. Yes, if that's what you took away from my argument, then no point indeed. Perhaps I should not have used Athena as an example, because just mentioning Athena and "sacrifice" in the same sentence seems to make you see red. What I was trying to refute is your statement that the desire to live and the will to sacrifice oneself can not possibly coexist. If we move away from that.... I'm not getting into an argument of "My opinion is more right than yours, my ship is truer than yours." No, thank you.

One last thing before I quit though. You don't find it funny? Or ironic? At all? That you of all people are accusing others of "melodramatically glorifying a heroine"?
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Old 2010-03-04, 21:44   Link #5988
GlassesLady
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
My personal further interpretation: Like I wrote before, this is probably the most effective way for win over people like me who are not yet sold on the Athena idea. As the character who has the strongest wish to be with him. The strongest NEED to be with him. We'll see.
I don't know about you, but that would in no way 'sell' the idea of Athena as Hayate's partner to me; in fact, it'd likely have the opposite effect. She's already possessive and possibly a yandere, she doesn't need 'needy' on top of that _ _'

Just putting in my two cents.
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Old 2010-03-04, 22:36   Link #5989
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassesLady View Post
She's already possessive
She's not possessive. She told Hayate how to leave the castle even though it's obvious she was afraid he wouldn't come back. Their fight was about her trying to "protect" him without properly explaining what she was protecting him from (in addition to him losing the ring), not about him being her "property" or what have you.

In fact, Athena is the only girl who has even said or thought "as long as he's happy" in regards to him having other people around him that he loves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassesLady View Post
and possibly a yandere
Being possessed is not the same thing as being a yandere.
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Old 2010-03-05, 03:21   Link #5990
zibi88
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well Athena was allways alone...so its only narutal to think of Hayate as the only closest and most important person to her... and she wants to be with him becouse she loves him...

at least athena is the only girl that is really streight foward ^^ she dosnt hide what she wants....would it be a kiss, hug or sit between haytes legs and ask him to hug her warmly... so she knows what she wants and she doesnt hide it ^^ (at least she is frank with hayate about her feelings)......

so nah Athena is simply very lonely and she is scared to be alone so her character developed into a way that she can say streight foward what she needs... and what she desires...... well how would nagi feel if she had no Hayate or Maria around... and was alone all day in that big mansion.

and yeah just like @musouka said Athena is not possesive becouse she told hayate how to go out from the castle..... yet she was allways watching hayate with the mirror to see if he will return.... well offcouse as a girl she was jelous that some other girl gave hayate a kiss ^^ but this is natural between people that love each other that are simple jelous and scared of loseing that person..
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Old 2010-03-05, 03:53   Link #5991
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch263/
The spoilers for chapter 263 are up now....I am now really confused lol

Spoiler for ch263:
Now, have to wait and see whether or not Athena realized that was Hayate's bro.
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Old 2010-03-05, 03:57   Link #5992
musouka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Now, have to wait and see whether or not Athena realized that was Hayate's bro.
On the last page she says she didn't know who it was, but she mentions the scar on his forehead.
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Old 2010-03-05, 04:07   Link #5993
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
On the last page she says she didn't know who it was, but she mentions the scar on his forehead.
o0, thanks.

Hopefully, Hayate will be able to make some connections to his brother.
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Old 2010-03-05, 05:34   Link #5994
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
In fact, Athena is the only girl who has even said or thought "as long as he's happy" in regards to him having other people around him that he loves.
Two words: Nishizawa Ayumu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch263/
The spoilers for chapter 263 are up now....I am now really confused lol
What the fuck? XD

Anyway, I think this ends the "Hayate's bro is Nagi's father," as her father seemed to have light-coloured hair.

Either way, this is interesting, and Hayate's bro is awesome.
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Old 2010-03-05, 05:49   Link #5995
fukarming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Two words: Nishizawa Ayumu


What the fuck? XD

Anyway, I think this ends the "Hayate's bro is Nagi's father," as her father seemed to have light-coloured hair.

Either way, this is interesting, and Hayate's bro is awesome.
Spoiler for Hayate's bro's scar:


and btw, where is the continual argument between "should Athena be praised?" I think used can make the perfect analogy but no one wants to talk about it anymore?
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Old 2010-03-05, 07:08   Link #5996
primuler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game8910 View Post
http://gamesmind.wordpress.com/2010/...-gotoku-ch263/
The spoilers for chapter 263 are up now....I am now really confused lol

Spoiler for ch263:

Spoiler for Summary of the text:
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Old 2010-03-05, 09:52   Link #5997
leoblack9
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So do you guys think Shiranui was, at one point, some hero saving people in need? Crazy theory, but in world of Hayate no Gotoku nothing is ever crazy.

Father Linn, he's a tough cookie, I percieved that he and Hayate's brother must've been colleages at one point since at that time they must've been at the same age and could've met at some point in time. They must have been involved with something and they ended up with scars on their foreheads.
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Old 2010-03-05, 12:20   Link #5998
Lisemer
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Sorry guys, but I don't think Hata is lying with the characters'sheets, and anyway, if all of you forget it, the X scar of the father was from the arrow that kill him...
Anyway, if any of you remember it, Shiranui seems to has something similar to CC's geass of love, because any girl that see the cat, fall in a curse or something that does the girl doesn't want to be apart from him (at least, that I feel, seeing the response of Ayumu, Hina and Nagi at the sight of the cat...).
And maybe, Hayate's aniki fall for another curse that tranform him into a cat...
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Old 2010-03-05, 12:28   Link #5999
zodanhko
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I thought the father said he existed for 400 years in spirit form.
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Old 2010-03-05, 12:50   Link #6000
Edge Meltdown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisemer View Post
And maybe, Hayate's aniki fall for another curse that tranform him into a cat...
i thought somehow he managed to get a ability to shapeshift since his scar is eerily similar to shiranui's and also this is HnG we're talking about, so anything's possible... (but not all i guess...)
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