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Old 2010-04-01, 11:34   Link #6581
Used Can
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I think, another way of taking that scenes, rather than it being a message from Athena to either Nagi or Hayate, it's also (or mainly) a message from Hata to the fans saying Athena is still in this story, and she hasn't given up on her feelings for Hayate.

If anyone other than me checked the 2ch Hayate threads after chapter 265, I'm sure they'll understand what I mean, more than anyone else.
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Old 2010-04-01, 11:35   Link #6582
madmac
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*siiiiigh* NOW athena is really going back to japan...? seriously this is becoming weird, it seems japanese fans got mad when Athena said she wasnt going back...
I don't think the time frame quite works for this assumption. Manga authors are always a couple chapters ahead of what gets released, and 266 would have already been drawn by the time 265 was out.

edit: Tweaking 266 because of the outrage to 264 is possible, I suppose.

I do think the turn-around was kind of sudden. I can see why, its the last chapter of the Golden Week Arc that's already dragged on forever, might as well tie up all the loose ends and such, but even so...

This makes it easy to stick Athena in comedic competition with the other girls, although I do think her days as a serious romantic contender are effectively over. I expect she'll keep chasing Hayate but it'll be played for laughs now instead of drama. I won't bother to argue the point because it's useless.

I like this manga a lot, but there is something about the last few chapters that left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth and I can't quite pinpoint why. It's not like any particular event irked me that much or anything, so...eh.

Possibly it's because Athena's turn around was too fast, but I'm not sure it would have been any better if Hata had waited, because then it would have seemed out of nowhere and...meh.
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Old 2010-04-01, 11:37   Link #6583
Rah
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Oh, I think you're right there, Used Can nii-chan~

I don't know where I got that, but I think that someone phrased it that way, and I just picked it up. It's from this page.

Spoiler for Clicky~:


Notice where the text is? Over Nagi it's who he wants to protect the most, and over Athena who he cares for the most. Well... it's still rather.. inconclusive.. perhaps..?

But it is a color page, and I guess that notches up its significance at least a little bit, right?

What do you think?

And you believe that Hata is fearful of fans, heh? But isn't HnG, like.. really popular? Or at least not somewhere in the middle, or the bottom. I think it's quite high up the charts actually. Well, this is just me saying stuff without any facts.. assumptions, guesses, short term memory, etc.. hehehe~

Oh, and would you prefer that I quoted you, or is answering this way fine? Quoting is such a pain... ^___^;;
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Old 2010-04-01, 11:42   Link #6584
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I think, another way of taking that scenes, rather than it being a message from Athena to either Nagi or Hayate, it's also (or mainly) a message from Hata to the fans saying Athena is still in this story, and she hasn't given up on her feelings for Hayate.
The whole ring box thing was clumsily done because of the fact that it really was meaningless to Nagi and doesn't have any clear interpretation, but this is probably the best way to look at it.

Hata also posted something in his blog about Athena this week along the lines of "About Athena...just wait and see.".

As far as the eternal "which girl" question, when it comes down to it, Hayate and Nagi are the main characters. If Hata wants Nagi to have a romantic ending she will, and it doesn't matter how many rivals she has. If he has something else in mind for her then you should be looking for the girl with enough development to make that ending seem natural. Crack pairings happen for secondary characters but almost never for the leads.

Right now, I don't see any girl with a clear lead even if you remove Nagi from the equation. Athena was almost there but she took a nose dive after 264-265 and it's unlikely she'll ever really come back from that. Maria has largely been removed already and I love Ayumu to death but likable rival has been her role from the beginning and I don't see that ever changing. Hina I think has regained her second place position from Athena but I don't really see it there for her yet either.

Really, no girl has enough development to support an ending with Hayate at this stage. Even Nagi with the odds stacked in her favor will need a lot of story development to make the ending work. In short, just read the story and don't worry about it so much. We're a long ways from things coming to an end.

Last edited by madmac; 2010-04-01 at 11:56.
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Old 2010-04-01, 12:09   Link #6585
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Yeah, like I said, Athena leveled the playing field.

Now they're all back at the start. Well, some haven't played their cards yet, and some are perhaps even at a disadvantage, but it's mostly equal now, I guess. It all depends on Hayate's preferences, but okay, I'll get real. It's like you said. It all depends what Hata wants. But unless he needs to rush it for whatever reason, won't it ruin the story that way? If Hayate suddenly develops feelings for Nagi out of nowhere, then.. well... you know...

It feels... broken? "Fake" is perhaps more fitting? He masterfully (well, not really, lol) ended the relationship between Athena and Hayate, and quelled the rage outbreak it might have caused. Now, I guess he has the chance to play with the characters, with the comedy, and so on, for a little while further. Then he can resume with the plot, and only after everything is said and done, he'll be able to pair Hayate with his dream girl.

By then he'll be fully prepared for any kind of impact from the fandom.. ^___^
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Old 2010-04-01, 12:18   Link #6586
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I see the point you're trying to make. Maybe you are right, and I'm projecting personal experiences here to Athena's disadvantage. I won't discount the possibility. I see all the same signs from an earlier escapade in my life in which a very Athena'ish girl managed to successfully wreck the life of one of my friends. She was an extreme drama queen full of grand gestures and great-hearted decisions, and whenever she made them, she completely believed in them. I'm convinced that she was fully genuine - at the time she made them. And then, in no time thereafter, she would revert to her old roots and rationalize her changes just the way I see several people do it in here. But seeing the disastrous eventual outcome (as predicted by me and denied in A-tan-shipper-like manner by my friend until it was too late), it sure gives me an eerie feeling of deja vu.
I am sorry to read about what happened to your friend, but from what I got (and forgive me if I misunderstood) I really can't say that Athena is displaying the same mannerism as that girl your friend knew. I can understand how her behaviour can be seen in a similar light, but Athena does try to do what she says and does care for Hayate deep down. She did try to push him away several times before for his own safety, and she never presented herself to others as a drama queen.
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But you don't see it as a challenge? Because that's one of the few agreements the A-tan shippers and me seemed to have. What would you think about Athena if it _were_ a challenge?
I don't see it as a challenge because she didn't say or imply ''I'll be coming back to take it later on, so you better be ready when I do''. If she did, then she would have been daring Nagi to keep Hayate away from her. But the way I understood the scene was that Athena was saying ''because I'm grateful for what you have done, I'll hand over Hayate even though he is important to me. But if you don't keep a good hold of him and let him go, I'll take him back''. It was more of a reminder for Nagi to value Hayate, more so than a challenge.
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That was my initial interpretation before I saw the execution of this chapter, as you may recall. On the meta-level, it would make alot of sense indeed. Maybe I _am_ overreacting to certain detail observations, but they really make me sour on this whole deal.
Well, then that makes it Hata's fault for not managing to get the message across properly. A lot of the time, as you have also mentioned before, Hata fails to present things in a proper manner that the only way to justify them is to look at it from a meta point of view (e.g. Hina getting the ranger costume) As Used Can pointed out, maybe he just wanted to please the Athena fans who weren't happy that she was leaving, so he gave her a way back with this chapter.

But Mentar, don't get too upset about this . The story is still not over and Athena didn't ''win'', so you shouldn't make mountains out of molehills yet.
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Why the keep-the-precious-ring-give-Nagi-the-worthless-shell?
Because the ring is the one that Hayate gave to her and holds the promise she had with him. It was Hayate's gift so she doesn't need to give to Nagi (unless she gave up on her feelings for him) The box is like I saw it, symbolises giving Hayate back. She didn't say that she was going to take it back though.
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Why the haughty "next time I might not hand it/him back"?
I kinda explained that before. She was telling her that she better value you him, but I can see how her attitude may annoy you.
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Why the coy smirk towards Machina, followed by the decision to return to Japan not later but _now_?
I can only explain it as that Hata wanted to make sure that the Athena will be back message was clear. Yeah it is not a good way of explaining it, but this is only way to see it imo.
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The chapter could have easily been made into the meta-message which you outlined (and I expected even after the spoilers). But fact is that it was told with strong diverging connotations, wouldn't you agree?
I don't deny that looking at it, this chapter does make what did Athena done in the past one seem a bit insincere. It definitely could have done better in execution, but I find it hard to believe, no, even illogical to think that Hata wanted to cross out her sacrifice and make her appear to be manipulative schemer who planned to fake everything in front of Hayate just so she could get him the end. It seems to me that isn't the message that is being presented in this chapter.

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Anyway, unless I read it wrong, in this week's entry, Hata said in his blog the girl in the last page of 266 seems to be a new character.
Looking forward to it then
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Old 2010-04-01, 12:28   Link #6587
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Now they're all back at the start. Well, some haven't played their cards yet, and some are perhaps even at a disadvantage, but it's mostly equal now, I guess. It all depends on Hayate's preferences, but okay, I'll get real. It's like you said. It all depends what Hata wants. But unless he needs to rush it for whatever reason, won't it ruin the story that way? If Hayate suddenly develops feelings for Nagi out of nowhere, then.. well... you know...
Yup. Things are still open at this point, with what happens going forward a lot more important then anything that's already happened so it's no use being strident about it.

With Nagi specifically, again I agree. It's always been my assumption since I started with this series that nothing much would happen romantically (with anyone) until Nagi is older. Her growing up and becoming a better person is a large part of the overall story.

Romantically, I see it kind of like a flowchart:

Hayate/Nagi= Yes. Story ends.

Hayate/Nagi=No--Continue branching until you get a yes pairing, story ends.

Until the relationship between Hayate and Nagi is decided, nothing else is going to happen, and their relationship isn't going to be decided anytime soon (It literally can't be.) so there's no use blowing a gasket defending one girl or another when you can't say what the landscape is going to be 2+ years down the road when it actually matters.
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Old 2010-04-01, 12:42   Link #6588
Rah
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I wonder if it's possible to somehow make it continue even after Hayate goes into a relationship with someone. Perhaps he could then break up, and go with someone else, or they could deal with the problems that a relationship brings? Perhaps even jealousy from some of the girls, and so on...

Or what if while together with someone, they continue on, and expand on the mysteries of the RG, Midas, the gems, Mikado's plot, etc..?
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Old 2010-04-01, 12:52   Link #6589
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I wonder if it's possible to somehow make it continue even after Hayate goes into a relationship with someone. Perhaps he could then break up, and go with someone else, or they could deal with the problems that a relationship brings? Perhaps even jealousy from some of the girls, and so on...
Oh it's certainly possible. Love Hina to pick a really old example went on quite a while with the main characters being more or less an item. When I say story-ends I don't mean instantly, just that it's probably headed towards resolution.

I'd prefer it if we did get to see the ending couple for a while just because it's such a rare thing in Shonen Manga. The possibility of an endgame serious plot makes that easier to pull off too. (As opposed to a pure fluff story, where you don't have any obvious conflict after the main couple gets together.)
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Old 2010-04-01, 12:52   Link #6590
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I wonder if it's possible to somehow make it continue even after Hayate goes into a relationship with someone. Perhaps he could then break up, and go with someone else, or they could deal with the problems that a relationship brings? Perhaps even jealousy from some of the girls, and so on...
Sort of what we have now?
but seriously, the main focus of the manga is ''who will end up with Hayate'' so the moment that happens, it will be near the end. Going into the drama of breaking up and what not will only prolong the manga and cause a complete mood shift, more so than the second half of this arc.

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Or what if while together with someone, they continue on, and expand on the mysteries of the RG, Midas, the gems, Mikado's plot, etc..?
I think that that will be explained along with the events that are happening now, so by the end there shouldn't be anything left. But then again what do I know? Maybe there is going to be a complete shfit and this arc was just a hint for whats to come
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Old 2010-04-01, 13:22   Link #6591
Rah
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Yeah, I guess we all believe that the point of it is Hayate's relationship with 1 of the girls in the end, but I think that Hata means something different.

It's more of a story about... no, scratch that. I can't remember how he said it, but it was something about greed, trusting people, loving someone, etc...

Basically, you could call it a relationship as well, but not quite... eeehhh, I can't put it into words.

Sorry >_<

Anyway, Arbalest-chan, I didn't mean it that way. I meant Hayate going in a serious romantic relationship with one of the girls, and then the story truly begins, or continues. You know...

Pretend (lol) that the real story is about the RG, and Midas, and Yukariko, the Power of Royalty, and stuff. I say pretend, because... well, it looks more like a side story, since the main focus is always on relationships, and Hayate's misfortune, but perhaps that will change. Who knows?

It would look weird to see, say.. Hayate being in a relationship with Ayumu, then breaking up, and going with Hina, while cheating on her with Athena, and still telling Nagi that he won't ever leave her side, or betray her.

.... O_O

Okay, that's totally not the Haayate we know at all! But it would look.. interesting...? Lol...

I can certainly picture many pissed off fans. HAhahaha, I wonder how Hata would react to that? xD

Well, it is his story, though he knows that there are limitations and stuff. Perhaps he can fool the editors, and slowly slide through with some crazy idea, and then implement it. And... destroy it all... heh....

Never mind. That totally wouldn't work. Everything returns to promises, and relationships in the end. No matter what meaning the RG, or Midas may have.. it's secondary.. heh..

I wonder what will Hayate do now. He's "free" from Athena's grasp. He doesn't consider Nagi to be a love interest, but someone really important to him. Someone he must protect at all costs, and make happy. Quite possibly for the rest of his life. But that shouldn't exclude the possibility of a relationship.

At the moment, I'd say Ayumu is on the first page. He should try dating her in secret, or perhaps concluding the relationship with her (basically just giving her an answer would do the trick). Nobody else has openly confessed, so he doesn't really have any other moves to make. Only Ayumu is on his target list now that Athena is gone. He could seriously consider it. Perhaps she could even steal a kiss from him while Hina stalks them? Hehehehe! That would be cute / shocking.. well, a mix of those.. ^___^;;


Edity~

Or will some crazy development prevent him from progressing with his relationships?

Wait, who said that it's implied that the girl that Chiharu met is going to be a new girl in the manga? Did Hata really say that?

She made a doujin...

Hayate made some doujins when he worked as a kid. You remember how Nagi tried, but couldn't win the prize, or whatever she fought for in some contest? And how that Robot Hayate gave her advice, etc..? Wait, do I remember it correctly? Errr.. ANYWAY!!

What if.. that girl that made that doujin got inspired by Hayate's doujins, and will meet him through Chiharu? And then she falls in love... Hayate is "free" now after all.. hahaha... crazy idea.

Ah, forget it. It's too whack.. haha...
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Old 2010-04-01, 13:47   Link #6592
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You know, Ayumu's birthday is coming up really soon in the story. It actually would be a good time for her to get some attention.
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Old 2010-04-01, 15:20   Link #6593
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More Ayumu = good. Always.
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Old 2010-04-01, 15:32   Link #6594
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I just read the chapter and I'm loving the fact that Athena places herself well in contention for three tropes in it alone, and none of them have evidences in only this chapter, just make it clear that she belongs in them.

She's definitely a Chessmaster with her word choices.
Depending on whether she's going to be an antagonist or protagonist, she could be placed in Magnificent Bastard or Manipulative Bastard.

Notable that Mikado also holds two of those titles, so I'm thinking she's probably going to fall into manipulative, but withholding final judgment until she proves herself one way or another.
Also gives her some credibility for working with Mikado as co-conspirator in trying to obtain the 'Power of the gods'.
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Old 2010-04-01, 15:42   Link #6595
Rah
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Umm.. well, I don't read tropes, but I have a question for you regardless, Bastion-tan~

Since characters change all the time, and Athena has displayed a helluva lot of changes in but a handful of chapters, isn't it too early to define her personality? Or do those definitions apply regardless of any future changes? Sorry, but I'm not really interested in tropes, and I won't be reading those articles. But I am interested in your reasons for always trying to analyze, and define someone as if they were a foreign substance...

Well, that's just the feeling I get from you. You like to label things, right? ^___^
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Old 2010-04-01, 15:59   Link #6596
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Umm.. well, I don't read tropes, but I have a question for you regardless, Bastion-tan~

Since characters change all the time, and Athena has displayed a helluva lot of changes in but a handful of chapters, isn't it too early to define her personality? Or do those definitions apply regardless of any future changes? Sorry, but I'm not really interested in tropes, and I won't be reading those articles. But I am interested in your reasons for always trying to analyze, and define someone as if they were a foreign substance...

Well, that's just the feeling I get from you. You like to label things, right? ^___^
It's part of the joy I get from paying attention to things like this ^_^.
These aren't new developments in Athena's character, there's been elements of all three of the tropes within her personality from the beginning, this chapter just made it extra clear that she was definitely trying for those spots.
The 'manipulatives' started back in her first appearance in the flashback.

All of the 'changes' to her personality are what actually play into the tropes.
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Old 2010-04-01, 16:33   Link #6597
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Athena is a seperate entity from the author, who is trying to mold her own appearance for the readers? And BA, why don't you just put the trope on the tvtropes site instead of, well, here?
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Old 2010-04-01, 16:36   Link #6598
Rah
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Hmmm... so...

Will you be able to completely define her by the end of the series, likewise with every other character? Perhaps make a new definition for an entirely new personality? I doubt that, but who knows, eh?

But in the end you'll probably be able to make a post with only links, eh? LOL...

I think I remember that from MF, or maybe I remember from when I took a glimpse at that site.

That.. would be creepy....

Anyway...

Chessmaster?

If Athena is the queen, and Hayate is a .... eh, I'll go with pawn. Then, why did she let him go? She had a checkmate two chapters ago. Victory in her grasp. All she needed to do was confess to him, and beg him to stay.

Quote:
"We all know the Chessmaster: cold, intelligent, calculating. His catspaws moving to shape events to his liking while he pulls the strings, the whole time secure in his fortress, never getting his hands dirty."
I find Athena quite emotional, actually. And I don't mean the way that she displays fake emotions for her plan, or something...

OKAY, OKAY, WAIT A SEC HERE. I'm freggin' lost! >_<

Way too confusing trying to merge those three together!

Oh, but you aren't using the whole definition, but only parts of it, or parts of each of the three, heh? Isn't there a better one? Well, there are probably way too many things.. you'd have to read them a-

..You probably did, or are planning to.

If there isn't one, do you plan on writing one for Athena? ^____^
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Old 2010-04-01, 16:50   Link #6599
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Will you be able to completely define her by the end of the series, likewise with every other character? Perhaps make a new definition for an entirely new personality? I doubt that, but who knows, eh?
The tropes are just components, most characters have multiple tropes. Chessmasters themselves are usually tied to the manipulatives.

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Anyway...

Chessmaster?

If Athena is the queen, and Hayate is a .... eh, I'll go with pawn. Then, why did she let him go? She had a checkmate two chapters ago. Victory in her grasp. All she needed to do was confess to him, and beg him to stay.
Athena is the king actually, the one controlling all the other's movements.
It's easier to see the plays through Mikado's POV.

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I find Athena quite emotional, actually. And I don't mean the way that she displays fake emotions for her plan, or something...
She's emotional, but clearly able to make decisions while being totally emotionless.

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OKAY, OKAY, WAIT A SEC HERE. I'm freggin' lost! >_<

Way too confusing traying to merge those three together!

Oh, but you aren't using the whole definition, but only parts of it, or parts of each of the three, heh? Isn't there a better one? Well, there are probably way too many things.. you'd have to read them a-

..You probably did, or are planning to.

If there isn't one, do you plan on writing one for Athena? ^____^
They're not mergings, they're working togethers. There's a reason the bottom of the articles have 'see also', 'usually overlaps' and the like. TVTropes is a literal web, you can easily get lost in it if you're not careful (can't find the comic depicting how fiendish the site is by itself.)
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2010-04-01, 16:52   Link #6600
zodanhko
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Glad the forum finally settles.

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Originally Posted by Rah View Post
?
But in the end you'll probably be able to make a post with only links, eh? LOL...

..You probably did, or are planning to.
Give Bastion some credits, he is a part of the TV Trope crews and gave Athena the personalities he thinks she deserved.
Unfortunately, he said he wouldn't be changing any of it, regardless...So, just stick to his decision. o.0 Wait...muahahahhahaaa as I'm hearing...
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