AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Hayate no Gotoku

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-04-01, 12:09   Link #6601
Rah
Are you a lolicon? :3
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Yeah, like I said, Athena leveled the playing field.

Now they're all back at the start. Well, some haven't played their cards yet, and some are perhaps even at a disadvantage, but it's mostly equal now, I guess. It all depends on Hayate's preferences, but okay, I'll get real. It's like you said. It all depends what Hata wants. But unless he needs to rush it for whatever reason, won't it ruin the story that way? If Hayate suddenly develops feelings for Nagi out of nowhere, then.. well... you know...

It feels... broken? "Fake" is perhaps more fitting? He masterfully (well, not really, lol) ended the relationship between Athena and Hayate, and quelled the rage outbreak it might have caused. Now, I guess he has the chance to play with the characters, with the comedy, and so on, for a little while further. Then he can resume with the plot, and only after everything is said and done, he'll be able to pair Hayate with his dream girl.

By then he'll be fully prepared for any kind of impact from the fandom.. ^___^
__________________
And then.. sharks eat them! Hahahahah!!
Rah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 12:18   Link #6602
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I see the point you're trying to make. Maybe you are right, and I'm projecting personal experiences here to Athena's disadvantage. I won't discount the possibility. I see all the same signs from an earlier escapade in my life in which a very Athena'ish girl managed to successfully wreck the life of one of my friends. She was an extreme drama queen full of grand gestures and great-hearted decisions, and whenever she made them, she completely believed in them. I'm convinced that she was fully genuine - at the time she made them. And then, in no time thereafter, she would revert to her old roots and rationalize her changes just the way I see several people do it in here. But seeing the disastrous eventual outcome (as predicted by me and denied in A-tan-shipper-like manner by my friend until it was too late), it sure gives me an eerie feeling of deja vu.
I am sorry to read about what happened to your friend, but from what I got (and forgive me if I misunderstood) I really can't say that Athena is displaying the same mannerism as that girl your friend knew. I can understand how her behaviour can be seen in a similar light, but Athena does try to do what she says and does care for Hayate deep down. She did try to push him away several times before for his own safety, and she never presented herself to others as a drama queen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
But you don't see it as a challenge? Because that's one of the few agreements the A-tan shippers and me seemed to have. What would you think about Athena if it _were_ a challenge?
I don't see it as a challenge because she didn't say or imply ''I'll be coming back to take it later on, so you better be ready when I do''. If she did, then she would have been daring Nagi to keep Hayate away from her. But the way I understood the scene was that Athena was saying ''because I'm grateful for what you have done, I'll hand over Hayate even though he is important to me. But if you don't keep a good hold of him and let him go, I'll take him back''. It was more of a reminder for Nagi to value Hayate, more so than a challenge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
That was my initial interpretation before I saw the execution of this chapter, as you may recall. On the meta-level, it would make alot of sense indeed. Maybe I _am_ overreacting to certain detail observations, but they really make me sour on this whole deal.
Well, then that makes it Hata's fault for not managing to get the message across properly. A lot of the time, as you have also mentioned before, Hata fails to present things in a proper manner that the only way to justify them is to look at it from a meta point of view (e.g. Hina getting the ranger costume) As Used Can pointed out, maybe he just wanted to please the Athena fans who weren't happy that she was leaving, so he gave her a way back with this chapter.

But Mentar, don't get too upset about this . The story is still not over and Athena didn't ''win'', so you shouldn't make mountains out of molehills yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why the keep-the-precious-ring-give-Nagi-the-worthless-shell?
Because the ring is the one that Hayate gave to her and holds the promise she had with him. It was Hayate's gift so she doesn't need to give to Nagi (unless she gave up on her feelings for him) The box is like I saw it, symbolises giving Hayate back. She didn't say that she was going to take it back though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why the haughty "next time I might not hand it/him back"?
I kinda explained that before. She was telling her that she better value you him, but I can see how her attitude may annoy you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why the coy smirk towards Machina, followed by the decision to return to Japan not later but _now_?
I can only explain it as that Hata wanted to make sure that the Athena will be back message was clear. Yeah it is not a good way of explaining it, but this is only way to see it imo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
The chapter could have easily been made into the meta-message which you outlined (and I expected even after the spoilers). But fact is that it was told with strong diverging connotations, wouldn't you agree?
I don't deny that looking at it, this chapter does make what did Athena done in the past one seem a bit insincere. It definitely could have done better in execution, but I find it hard to believe, no, even illogical to think that Hata wanted to cross out her sacrifice and make her appear to be manipulative schemer who planned to fake everything in front of Hayate just so she could get him the end. It seems to me that isn't the message that is being presented in this chapter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Anyway, unless I read it wrong, in this week's entry, Hata said in his blog the girl in the last page of 266 seems to be a new character.
Looking forward to it then
__________________
Arabesque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 12:28   Link #6603
madmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
Now they're all back at the start. Well, some haven't played their cards yet, and some are perhaps even at a disadvantage, but it's mostly equal now, I guess. It all depends on Hayate's preferences, but okay, I'll get real. It's like you said. It all depends what Hata wants. But unless he needs to rush it for whatever reason, won't it ruin the story that way? If Hayate suddenly develops feelings for Nagi out of nowhere, then.. well... you know...
Yup. Things are still open at this point, with what happens going forward a lot more important then anything that's already happened so it's no use being strident about it.

With Nagi specifically, again I agree. It's always been my assumption since I started with this series that nothing much would happen romantically (with anyone) until Nagi is older. Her growing up and becoming a better person is a large part of the overall story.

Romantically, I see it kind of like a flowchart:

Hayate/Nagi= Yes. Story ends.

Hayate/Nagi=No--Continue branching until you get a yes pairing, story ends.

Until the relationship between Hayate and Nagi is decided, nothing else is going to happen, and their relationship isn't going to be decided anytime soon (It literally can't be.) so there's no use blowing a gasket defending one girl or another when you can't say what the landscape is going to be 2+ years down the road when it actually matters.
madmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 12:42   Link #6604
Rah
Are you a lolicon? :3
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
I wonder if it's possible to somehow make it continue even after Hayate goes into a relationship with someone. Perhaps he could then break up, and go with someone else, or they could deal with the problems that a relationship brings? Perhaps even jealousy from some of the girls, and so on...

Or what if while together with someone, they continue on, and expand on the mysteries of the RG, Midas, the gems, Mikado's plot, etc..?
__________________
And then.. sharks eat them! Hahahahah!!
Rah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 12:52   Link #6605
madmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Quote:
I wonder if it's possible to somehow make it continue even after Hayate goes into a relationship with someone. Perhaps he could then break up, and go with someone else, or they could deal with the problems that a relationship brings? Perhaps even jealousy from some of the girls, and so on...
Oh it's certainly possible. Love Hina to pick a really old example went on quite a while with the main characters being more or less an item. When I say story-ends I don't mean instantly, just that it's probably headed towards resolution.

I'd prefer it if we did get to see the ending couple for a while just because it's such a rare thing in Shonen Manga. The possibility of an endgame serious plot makes that easier to pull off too. (As opposed to a pure fluff story, where you don't have any obvious conflict after the main couple gets together.)
madmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 12:52   Link #6606
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
I wonder if it's possible to somehow make it continue even after Hayate goes into a relationship with someone. Perhaps he could then break up, and go with someone else, or they could deal with the problems that a relationship brings? Perhaps even jealousy from some of the girls, and so on...
Sort of what we have now?
but seriously, the main focus of the manga is ''who will end up with Hayate'' so the moment that happens, it will be near the end. Going into the drama of breaking up and what not will only prolong the manga and cause a complete mood shift, more so than the second half of this arc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Or what if while together with someone, they continue on, and expand on the mysteries of the RG, Midas, the gems, Mikado's plot, etc..?
I think that that will be explained along with the events that are happening now, so by the end there shouldn't be anything left. But then again what do I know? Maybe there is going to be a complete shfit and this arc was just a hint for whats to come
__________________
Arabesque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 13:22   Link #6607
Rah
Are you a lolicon? :3
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Yeah, I guess we all believe that the point of it is Hayate's relationship with 1 of the girls in the end, but I think that Hata means something different.

It's more of a story about... no, scratch that. I can't remember how he said it, but it was something about greed, trusting people, loving someone, etc...

Basically, you could call it a relationship as well, but not quite... eeehhh, I can't put it into words.

Sorry >_<

Anyway, Arbalest-chan, I didn't mean it that way. I meant Hayate going in a serious romantic relationship with one of the girls, and then the story truly begins, or continues. You know...

Pretend (lol) that the real story is about the RG, and Midas, and Yukariko, the Power of Royalty, and stuff. I say pretend, because... well, it looks more like a side story, since the main focus is always on relationships, and Hayate's misfortune, but perhaps that will change. Who knows?

It would look weird to see, say.. Hayate being in a relationship with Ayumu, then breaking up, and going with Hina, while cheating on her with Athena, and still telling Nagi that he won't ever leave her side, or betray her.

.... O_O

Okay, that's totally not the Haayate we know at all! But it would look.. interesting...? Lol...

I can certainly picture many pissed off fans. HAhahaha, I wonder how Hata would react to that? xD

Well, it is his story, though he knows that there are limitations and stuff. Perhaps he can fool the editors, and slowly slide through with some crazy idea, and then implement it. And... destroy it all... heh....

Never mind. That totally wouldn't work. Everything returns to promises, and relationships in the end. No matter what meaning the RG, or Midas may have.. it's secondary.. heh..

I wonder what will Hayate do now. He's "free" from Athena's grasp. He doesn't consider Nagi to be a love interest, but someone really important to him. Someone he must protect at all costs, and make happy. Quite possibly for the rest of his life. But that shouldn't exclude the possibility of a relationship.

At the moment, I'd say Ayumu is on the first page. He should try dating her in secret, or perhaps concluding the relationship with her (basically just giving her an answer would do the trick). Nobody else has openly confessed, so he doesn't really have any other moves to make. Only Ayumu is on his target list now that Athena is gone. He could seriously consider it. Perhaps she could even steal a kiss from him while Hina stalks them? Hehehehe! That would be cute / shocking.. well, a mix of those.. ^___^;;


Edity~

Or will some crazy development prevent him from progressing with his relationships?

Wait, who said that it's implied that the girl that Chiharu met is going to be a new girl in the manga? Did Hata really say that?

She made a doujin...

Hayate made some doujins when he worked as a kid. You remember how Nagi tried, but couldn't win the prize, or whatever she fought for in some contest? And how that Robot Hayate gave her advice, etc..? Wait, do I remember it correctly? Errr.. ANYWAY!!

What if.. that girl that made that doujin got inspired by Hayate's doujins, and will meet him through Chiharu? And then she falls in love... Hayate is "free" now after all.. hahaha... crazy idea.

Ah, forget it. It's too whack.. haha...
__________________
And then.. sharks eat them! Hahahahah!!
Rah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 13:47   Link #6608
madmac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
You know, Ayumu's birthday is coming up really soon in the story. It actually would be a good time for her to get some attention.
madmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 15:20   Link #6609
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 45
More Ayumu = good. Always.
Mentar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 15:32   Link #6610
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
I just read the chapter and I'm loving the fact that Athena places herself well in contention for three tropes in it alone, and none of them have evidences in only this chapter, just make it clear that she belongs in them.

She's definitely a Chessmaster with her word choices.
Depending on whether she's going to be an antagonist or protagonist, she could be placed in Magnificent Bastard or Manipulative Bastard.

Notable that Mikado also holds two of those titles, so I'm thinking she's probably going to fall into manipulative, but withholding final judgment until she proves herself one way or another.
Also gives her some credibility for working with Mikado as co-conspirator in trying to obtain the 'Power of the gods'.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 15:42   Link #6611
Rah
Are you a lolicon? :3
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Umm.. well, I don't read tropes, but I have a question for you regardless, Bastion-tan~

Since characters change all the time, and Athena has displayed a helluva lot of changes in but a handful of chapters, isn't it too early to define her personality? Or do those definitions apply regardless of any future changes? Sorry, but I'm not really interested in tropes, and I won't be reading those articles. But I am interested in your reasons for always trying to analyze, and define someone as if they were a foreign substance...

Well, that's just the feeling I get from you. You like to label things, right? ^___^
__________________
And then.. sharks eat them! Hahahahah!!
Rah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 15:59   Link #6612
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Umm.. well, I don't read tropes, but I have a question for you regardless, Bastion-tan~

Since characters change all the time, and Athena has displayed a helluva lot of changes in but a handful of chapters, isn't it too early to define her personality? Or do those definitions apply regardless of any future changes? Sorry, but I'm not really interested in tropes, and I won't be reading those articles. But I am interested in your reasons for always trying to analyze, and define someone as if they were a foreign substance...

Well, that's just the feeling I get from you. You like to label things, right? ^___^
It's part of the joy I get from paying attention to things like this ^_^.
These aren't new developments in Athena's character, there's been elements of all three of the tropes within her personality from the beginning, this chapter just made it extra clear that she was definitely trying for those spots.
The 'manipulatives' started back in her first appearance in the flashback.

All of the 'changes' to her personality are what actually play into the tropes.
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 16:33   Link #6613
babohtea
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Athena is a seperate entity from the author, who is trying to mold her own appearance for the readers? And BA, why don't you just put the trope on the tvtropes site instead of, well, here?
__________________
Favorites:
ToraDora!
Full Metal Alchemist
TWGOK (Kaminomi, The world God only knows)
babohtea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 16:36   Link #6614
Rah
Are you a lolicon? :3
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Hmmm... so...

Will you be able to completely define her by the end of the series, likewise with every other character? Perhaps make a new definition for an entirely new personality? I doubt that, but who knows, eh?

But in the end you'll probably be able to make a post with only links, eh? LOL...

I think I remember that from MF, or maybe I remember from when I took a glimpse at that site.

That.. would be creepy....

Anyway...

Chessmaster?

If Athena is the queen, and Hayate is a .... eh, I'll go with pawn. Then, why did she let him go? She had a checkmate two chapters ago. Victory in her grasp. All she needed to do was confess to him, and beg him to stay.

Quote:
"We all know the Chessmaster: cold, intelligent, calculating. His catspaws moving to shape events to his liking while he pulls the strings, the whole time secure in his fortress, never getting his hands dirty."
I find Athena quite emotional, actually. And I don't mean the way that she displays fake emotions for her plan, or something...

OKAY, OKAY, WAIT A SEC HERE. I'm freggin' lost! >_<

Way too confusing trying to merge those three together!

Oh, but you aren't using the whole definition, but only parts of it, or parts of each of the three, heh? Isn't there a better one? Well, there are probably way too many things.. you'd have to read them a-

..You probably did, or are planning to.

If there isn't one, do you plan on writing one for Athena? ^____^
__________________
And then.. sharks eat them! Hahahahah!!
Rah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 16:50   Link #6615
Bastion_Arcion
*boot to the head*
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: existence
Send a message via AIM to Bastion_Arcion Send a message via MSN to Bastion_Arcion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Will you be able to completely define her by the end of the series, likewise with every other character? Perhaps make a new definition for an entirely new personality? I doubt that, but who knows, eh?
The tropes are just components, most characters have multiple tropes. Chessmasters themselves are usually tied to the manipulatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
Anyway...

Chessmaster?

If Athena is the queen, and Hayate is a .... eh, I'll go with pawn. Then, why did she let him go? She had a checkmate two chapters ago. Victory in her grasp. All she needed to do was confess to him, and beg him to stay.
Athena is the king actually, the one controlling all the other's movements.
It's easier to see the plays through Mikado's POV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
I find Athena quite emotional, actually. And I don't mean the way that she displays fake emotions for her plan, or something...
She's emotional, but clearly able to make decisions while being totally emotionless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
OKAY, OKAY, WAIT A SEC HERE. I'm freggin' lost! >_<

Way too confusing traying to merge those three together!

Oh, but you aren't using the whole definition, but only parts of it, or parts of each of the three, heh? Isn't there a better one? Well, there are probably way too many things.. you'd have to read them a-

..You probably did, or are planning to.

If there isn't one, do you plan on writing one for Athena? ^____^
They're not mergings, they're working togethers. There's a reason the bottom of the articles have 'see also', 'usually overlaps' and the like. TVTropes is a literal web, you can easily get lost in it if you're not careful (can't find the comic depicting how fiendish the site is by itself.)
__________________
Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
Bastion_Arcion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 16:52   Link #6616
zodanhko
*ignoring*
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Glad the forum finally settles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rah View Post
?
But in the end you'll probably be able to make a post with only links, eh? LOL...

..You probably did, or are planning to.
Give Bastion some credits, he is a part of the TV Trope crews and gave Athena the personalities he thinks she deserved.
Unfortunately, he said he wouldn't be changing any of it, regardless...So, just stick to his decision. o.0 Wait...muahahahhahaaa as I'm hearing...
zodanhko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 17:30   Link #6617
Game8910
Shanacon/Ariafag
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: a room full of despair
Age: 25
Athena a magnificent bastard?

Im very ok with this. I love those kinds of characters who always 1 up the rest like Light on Death Note ^_^
__________________
HEY GUYS BE NICE AND VISIT MY BLOG WILL YA?
Latest Update:
Spring 2011 Impressions (part1)
Spring 2011 Impressions (part2)
Game8910 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 17:50   Link #6618
aldw
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
For me at least, Athena's not out of the running, not by a long shot (and neither is Hina too)...
aldw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 18:55   Link #6619
Dr. Casey
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Glad the forum finally settles.
Yeah... not that anyone should have gotten annoyed with Mentar in the first place for engaging in perfectly healthy, civil debate and discussion.

So... chapter 267 comes out tomorrow, right? The manga's getting really interesting these days, each new chapter makes a difference.
Dr. Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-04-01, 19:05   Link #6620
Koroshiya_Kame_13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hitman League
The text on the right side of the last page mentions something about a special episode. Will that take up the whole chapter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Yeah... not that anyone should have gotten annoyed with Mentar in the first place for engaging in perfectly healthy, civil debate and discussion.
Gone for a few hours and 2 pages were already filled. Not gonna bother reading it cause its the usual personal opinion regarding a character that fuels a fiery debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
So... chapter 267 comes out tomorrow, right? The manga's getting really interesting these days, each new chapter makes a difference.
No it doesn't. Its so convenient now thanks to the internet and this makes us feel that the manga will come out early. The official release is on Wednesday in Japan, but those camera versions comes out earlier than that. The magazine is called Sunday because originally the company wanted the atmosphere of a relaxing sunday, but the magazine is actually released on wednesdays.

Last edited by Koroshiya_Kame_13; 2010-04-01 at 19:16.
Koroshiya_Kame_13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comedy, shounen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.