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Old 2010-12-24, 15:00   Link #7481
Nemuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Snip.........
Lol, in the end we're just going to resort to insults and say the other person is ignoring or cherry picking their examples and response.
Like you’re “reading too much from nothing”
Still my main objective is still a disagreement with your response and

Quote:
Atm I'm more or less trying to find post where people are in agreement with your accusation.
We could go on with just my words vs your but I'm more interested in reading a wider response from other people.

The next few chapters will shed more light on this topic, however I would like to say that I agree with many people here that there hasn't been anything worthy in the past recent chapters to solidify a response that Hayate likes xx more maybe we(me and you) can leave it as such since that was my original intention from the beginning even if I will object to your earlier statement that Hayate show affection towards Hinagiku regarding the latest 2 chapters available. While, it is widely accepted by the many poster in this sub-forum that not much is happening. However if you’re still persistent I have nothing more to say.

P.S merry xmas from Australia (25/12/2010) here
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Old 2010-12-24, 15:05   Link #7482
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
So much shipping talk for two chapters that have no meaningful shipping content at all.

Seriously though, with all the (probable) fanservice and slapstick this set-up calls for this is precisely the worst time to be looking for meaningful shipping hints.
I'm pretty much on the same boat as you but, apparently, something, unknowingly to most of us, about the body languages said otherwise.
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Old 2010-12-24, 23:51   Link #7483
thenightsshadow
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Not to say that Hata-sensei is not skilled in regards to drawing and all, but why does body language HAVE to apply to manga?

To me, it's more superfluous and less exact particularly because while those characters can appear, act, and feel real, note that body language is something we do unconsciously at times, but is almost always deliberate in manga.

I dunno, I just think that trying to argue on the basis of body language here is a null point.
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Old 2010-12-25, 13:12   Link #7484
Bastion_Arcion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenightsshadow View Post
Not to say that Hata-sensei is not skilled in regards to drawing and all, but why does body language HAVE to apply to manga?

To me, it's more superfluous and less exact particularly because while those characters can appear, act, and feel real, note that body language is something we do unconsciously at times, but is almost always deliberate in manga.

I dunno, I just think that trying to argue on the basis of body language here is a null point.
Except for the fact that twice Hata has explicitly said that you have to pay attention to the body language and not the words being said.

Are we forgetting that at the very start of the story, Nagi misinterpreted Hayate's words to her as a confession when he was actually thinking of kidnapping her. And then in the later chapter of the Golden Week arc she actually said that words can't be trusted to convey actual feelings?
Whether that means that Nagi might actually come to some sort of conclusion that Hayate wasn't confessing to her has yet to come up again.

Hayate pretty clearly hasn't backed up his confession for Athena by his actions.
I've spent 18+ years learning the body language of people, and found a lot of commonalities.
It's also pretty easy to read once you learn the cues.

@ All, sorry about my earlier post, finally pushed to my breaking point and I ended up snapping at you guys.
Would have rathered have snapped at the one who helped get there but telling me that body language means nothing didn't help anything, it's a pet-peeve of mine, read one of my sig quotes here.
Late December is also a bad time to push my buttons also, as I tend to hate the christmas season for what society has turned it into -_-
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Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.

Last edited by Bastion_Arcion; 2010-12-25 at 14:06.
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Old 2010-12-25, 13:48   Link #7485
DragoonKain3
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Meh, body language in page 5 of chapter 300 says it all for me. I am NOT at all scared for my ship when it comes to body language, no siree. XD


Nah, what scares me the most right now is Athena giving the ring back, as it symbolizes Hayate's heart (while the ring case symbolizes his body, which btw is both 'owned' by nagi, no coincidence there). In other words, it would mean that his heart is his own again if you think of it symbolically.

That said, I still have great faith that it will all work out in the end (I mean, think of the ramifications that after all this, Hayate gives the ring back!). Either that, or Athena will kick the bucket (the foreshadowing is there if it's true, I'm not gonna lie) and all this is to make Hayate move on properly. In other words, it's as I said last time... any girl to be the winner of Hayate's heart must go through Athena first (ie. the 'big boss'), and this arc could very well be the setup to that.


Glad to see Athena take 2nd spot though, considering how little she actually has appeared in comparison to other characters. Gogogogo A-tan! ^_^
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Old 2010-12-25, 15:16   Link #7486
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Except for the fact that twice Hata has explicitly said that you have to pay attention to the body language and not the words being said.
1st: Hata said no such things. Nagi did mentioned something like "words cause misunderstands," but if you use her words, you are contradicting yourself.

2nd: I believe we all know from experiences that both words and actions (or body language) can create misunderstands. When Hayate touched Nagi's bottom, it did not mean he wanted to get intimate with her contrast to Nagi's belief. Nagi misunderstood Hayate's statement "I want you to go out with me (to kidnap you)."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Are we forgetting that at the very start of the story, Nagi misinterpreted Hayate's words to her as a confession when he was actually thinking of kidnapping her. And then in the later chapter of the Golden Week arc she actually said that words can't be trusted to convey actual feelings?
Whether that means that Nagi might actually come to some sort of conclusion that Hayate wasn't confessing to her has yet to come up again.
You are contradicting yourself with this example. From above, you think Nagi and Hayate had a misunderstanding and believe Nagi misinterpreted Hayate's words. Why?

Because you believe in the texts "I want you to go out with me (to kidnap you in his thoughts)" that Hayate stated, which was different from Nagi's thought (in words/texts) about being a couple. You believe that their words hold true to themselves and their intentions were different through their words to come to your conclusion that they had a misunderstanding.
Nagi stated that words can cause misunderstandings. Why do you use that statement if you don't believe in the texts?.

The reason Nagi and Hayate misunderstood one another was because they didn't explicitly stated their thoughts. There won't be a misunderstand if Hayate said out loud "I want you to go out with me because I love you or because I want to kidnap you." In Athena's case, Hayate clearly said he loves Athena to Hina out loud, which was something Hina didn't misunderstand.
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Old 2010-12-25, 15:50   Link #7487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
1st: Hata said no such things. Nagi did mentioned something like "words cause misunderstands," but if you use her words, you are contradicting yourself.
I'm wondering how you came to this conclusion, since you answer both situations directly below the statement itself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
You are contradicting yourself with this example. From above, you think Nagi and Hayate had a misunderstanding and believe Nagi misinterpreted Hayate's words. Why?
This is why I dislike debating with you. You seem to think you can parcel out a comment and react to it as if the rest of the post doesn't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
2nd: I believe we all know from experiences that both words and actions (or body language) can create misunderstands. When Hayate touched Nagi's bottom, it did not mean he wanted to get intimate with her contrast to Nagi's belief. Nagi misunderstood Hayate's statement "I want you to go out with me (to kidnap you)."
That was clearly not the intent of the statement, as he's grabbed her in inappropriate places before, during the fishing incident, when he was trying to keep her from being pulled overboard,
She's reading the actions as more intimate than the are intended. In both cases, he's reacting and happens to grab her inappropriately (he doesn't really have much of a choice, she has a small form), he's done similarly to the other young women as well.
Putting his arms around Hinagiku, while they were in costumes (under Nagi's directions no less), and accidentally triggering her berserk button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Because you believe in the texts "I want you to go out with me (to kidnap you in his thoughts)" that Hayate stated, which was different from Nagi's thought (in words/texts) about being a couple. You believe that their words hold true to themselves and their intentions were different through their words to come to your conclusion that they had a misunderstanding.
Nagi stated that words can cause misunderstandings. Why do you use that statement if you don't believe in the texts?.

The reason Nagi and Hayate misunderstood one another was because they didn't explicitly stated their thoughts. There won't be a misunderstand if Hayate said out loud "I want you to go out with me because I love you or because I want to kidnap you." In Athena's case, Hayate clearly said he loves Athena to Hina out loud, which was something Hina didn't misunderstand.
The text tells us explicitly how the statement was misinterpreted. I'm not looking at it separately, as you seem to want to imply, I'm reading the text in addition to the subtext.

In English, the word used was 'love'.
Using only the Greek language, there's four different words that are correctly translated into English as 'love'. And that's only in one language, and not even the original language. He never makes clear which word he's using from an English-speaker's perspective, and even explicitly states before he says them that he's not sure which one should be used.
In this case, I'm implying that the ones who are doing the misreading are the fans who say that Hayate's true love is Athena.
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.
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Old 2010-12-25, 16:00   Link #7488
Nemuru
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
In this case, I'm implying that the ones who are doing the misreading are the fans who say that Hayate's true love is Athena.
.................... lol, there wouldn't be depress Hinagiku fan out there if there wasn't some truth to it... (keeping it to small talk to I can enjoy the holiday lol)
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Old 2010-12-25, 16:08   Link #7489
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Originally Posted by Nemuru View Post
.................... lol, there wouldn't be depress Hinagiku fan there if there wasn't some truth to it... (keeping it to small talk to I can enjoy the holiday lol)
I've never denied that Hayate has some affection for Athena, he does still hold to his promise of 'eternal love' for her, it's just pretty clear that it's not the 'true love' that Hayate x Athena shippers think it is.
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Old 2010-12-25, 18:34   Link #7490
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I'm wondering how you came to this conclusion, since you answer both situations directly below the statement itself.
Can you show me the page where "Hata said that you have to pay attention to the body language and not the words being said." (like you stated)?

I agreed with Nagi that words can cause misunderstanding (action and behaviors as well), but it depends on how they are used. As readers, we know when misunderstanding are made by the characters through words of their true feelings/thoughts, even though it wasn't their intentions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
The text tells us explicitly how the statement was misinterpreted.

In this case, I'm implying that the ones who are doing the misreading are the fans who say that Hayate's true love is Athena.
The texts just explicitly tell us how the characters truly feel and think, so we don't need to make assumptions.

-When Hina said she's in love with Hayate (in texts), she did not lie.
-When Hayate stated that he tried to kidnap Nagi (in texts), he didn't not lie.
-When Nagi said she wants to be with Hayate forever, she did not lie.
-When Ayumi said she likes Hayate, she did not lie.

-Why should we (the vast majority who believe Hayate romantically loved Athena) think it was misinterpreted when Hayate said he loves Athena (which he never said to any other girl)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I'm not looking at it separately, as you seem to want to imply, I'm reading the text in addition to the subtext.

I've never denied that Hayate has some affection for Athena, he does still hold to his promise of 'eternal love' for her, it's just pretty clear that it's not the 'true love' that Hayate x Athena shippers think it is.
You said before "I only look at the subtext (the art works)" after I stated Hayate said that Athena's not like the others, he said he loves her, and he said she dumped him for evidences. Remember how I said you ignored everything I said.

I don't really know what you mean by "true love" because I never once said or thought about it. I just argued that Hayate DOES loved Athena romantically, in which you denied, as an viewer and other shippers agreed as well, not just Athena's fans.

I'm pretty sure you told me Hayate loves Athena as a mentor a few days ago.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-25 at 19:11.
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Old 2010-12-26, 17:33   Link #7491
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*sigh* zod, you may now claim the distinction of forcing me to change my sig..
And I'm about to scan this thread (the only place we've talked for the last few days) for the third time to try and find where you're getting that 'quote' from about my only reading the subtext.
I think I might know where you're getting the message from, but the statement clearly says that I didn't get anything additional from the English text that I hadn't already pulled from the body language.
You do also have a habit of reading a statement exactly how you want to, sometimes over the top of me spending quite a bit of time trying to make sure the wording can't be read in that manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
I'm pretty sure you told me Hayate loves Athena as a mentor a few days ago.
Are you honestly trying to imply that you can think of someone as a mentor and not have some level of affection for them?

Did Luke not have some affection for Obi-Wan and Yoda?
I know there are more examples of student-mentor relationships, including cross-gender ones, but my brain refuses to spit them out right now >.<
Spoiler:
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2010-12-26, 18:54   Link #7492
Nemuru
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I've never denied that Hayate has some affection for Athena, he does still hold to his promise of 'eternal love' for her, it's just pretty clear that it's not the 'true love' that Hayate x Athena shippers think it is.
Well I'm glad that I didn't continue on arguing over xxxx........ However I still do like to write whenever I can. And yes I can't win argument vs someone who........ (leaving it imagination). As I can already foresee what kind of response you're going to use but I have to say you need to be less forceful sometimes, since I wouldn't consider something debateable being clear/obvious when discussing your opinion unless there are enough material evidence to state otherwise.

So enough teasing, On balance we could argue the meaning of true love or even affection in general (something I rather not). But I can accept your view that Hayate's true love might not be Athena from Hayate's perspective (debatable) however Athena is the only girl which Hayate has confessed to and shown physical/romantic interest. From one(many) person view that is enough to indicate 'love' considering that Hayate has yet to show that side to others or simply a response that he doesn't hold others in such high esteem base on material events or at least I don't believe anyone can challenge Athena current status while Nagi is debateable although their relationship looks more like a brother and sister type.


I will have some peace of mind and put this entire discuss behind when Hayate action are steered by physical attraction towards A-tan (currently a loli ) or others.

A-tan Quote
Quote:
Will you be my butler.
I died in bliss a few times after reading that . An A-tan confession (yes, this is me trying to reading the subtext).
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Old 2010-12-26, 19:04   Link #7493
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Originally Posted by Nemuru View Post
Well I'm glad that I didn't continue on arguing over xxxx........ However I still do like to write whenever I can. And yes I can't win argument vs someone who........ (leaving it imagination). As I can already foresee what kind of response you're going to use but I have to say you need to be less forceful sometimes, since I wouldn't consider something debateable being clear/obvious when discussing your opinion unless there are enough material evidence to state otherwise.

So enough teasing, On balance we could argue the meaning of true love or even affection in general (something I rather not). But I can accept your view that Hayate's true love might not be Athena from Hayate's perspective (debatable) however Athena is the only girl which Hayate has confessed to and shown physical/romantic interest. From one(many) person view that is enough to indicate 'love' considering that Hayate has yet to show that side to others or simply a response that he doesn't hold others in such high esteem base on material events or at least I don't believe anyone can challenge Athena current status while Nagi is debateable although their relationship looks more like a brother and sister type.


I will have some peace of mind and put this entire discuss behind when Hayate action are steered by physical attraction towards A-tan (currently a loli ) or others.

A-tan Quote

I died in bliss a few times after reading that . An A-tan confession (yes, this is me trying to reading the subtext).
That's pretty much my sentiments as well; however much A-tan may be focused on her goals Hayate's meaning to her won't waver (and vice versa) despite what the naysayers may spout.
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Old 2010-12-26, 19:05   Link #7494
Bastion_Arcion
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Originally Posted by Nemuru View Post
So enough teasing, On balance we could argue the meaning of true love or even affection in general (something I rather not). But I can accept your view that Hayate's true love might not be Athena from Hayate's perspective (debatable) however Athena is the only girl which Hayate has confessed to and shown physical/romantic interest. From one(many) person view that is enough to indicate 'love' considering that Hayate has yet to show that side to others, it is simply a response that he doesn't hold others in such high esteem or at least I don't believe anyone can challenge Athena current status while Nagi is debateable although their relationship looks more like a brother and sister type.
I seem to have a vague memory of Hayate stating somewhere that he could be dating Nishizawa, I don't think it was to her though, but it's still enough to put your statement on questionable ground.
He also seems to hold Hinagiku's relationship to him as somewhat equal to his relationship with Nagi, so there's potential for romance there.. he just thinks she's always angry with him for various reasons.
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Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
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Old 2010-12-26, 19:13   Link #7495
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
*sigh* zod, you may now claim the distinction of forcing me to change my sig..
And I'm about to scan this thread (the only place we've talked for the last few days) for the third time to try and find where you're getting that 'quote' from about my only reading the subtext.
Did you forget the debate earlier we had on Mangafox after you privately pm me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion
This is entirely based on the subtext of the manga.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion
[B]Subtext, done in black and white (and sometimes even color). Ever heard the statement 'actions speak louder than words'?His feelings for Hinagiku and Nagi are 'spoken' louder than those for Athena.

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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Are you honestly trying to imply that you can think of someone as a mentor and not have some level of affection for them?
Ugh...No. Students can have affections for their mentors no doubt.

I was trying to say Hayate loves Athena as a girl, while you think he loves her as his mentor. I supposed there's nothing wrong in assuming Hina loves Hayate as her brother and Nagi loves him as her butler/father if one can assume Hayate loves Athena as his mentor.
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Old 2010-12-26, 19:37   Link #7496
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Quote:
I seem to have a vague memory of Hayate stating somewhere that he could be dating Nishizawa, I don't think it was to her though, but it's still enough to put your statement on questionable ground.
No, you're remembering right. Hayate visits his old high school with the Hamster and muses that if his parents hadn't sold him off, they could be dating right now.

It's a recurrent theme with Ayumu, really, Hayate expresses interest but offers various excuses as to why he's just too busy/poor ect to take her up on the offer.

Ayumu consistently interprets this as meaning "he won't look at her" and on balance, she's probably correct. Hayate isn't disinterested in her, but he's not willing to make her his number one priority either, and thus they're at a stalemate.

In 239, Hayate puts Hina and Ayumu side by side, which strikes me as probably correct in the sense that Hayate would happily go out with either of them if it was convenient for him, but he hasn't shown enough interest to really work for it.

Of course, feelings evolve over time, and we're yet to see the full impact of Athena essentially freeing Hayate from his past/allowing him to move on. He's made no attempt to contact her since leaving Athens (And has apparently given the whole thing very little thought until Yozora jostled his memory.) and it would be extremely premature to expect Hayate to go running after her ago just because she's popped back into his life.
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Old 2010-12-26, 19:41   Link #7497
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Did you forget the debate earlier we had on Mangafox after you privately pm me?
Ah..
Still waiting to hear the part about me only reading the subtext though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Ugh...No. Students can have affections for their mentors no doubt.

I was trying to say Hayate loves Athena as a girl, while you think he loves her as his mentor. I supposed there's nothing wrong in assuming Hina loves Hayate as her brother and Nagi loves him as her butler/father if one can assume Hayate loves Athena as his mentor.
Except that he stares at, and talks about, Hinagiku, Nagi, Maria, and most of the rest of his harem's 'feminine aspects', while he tries to avoid looking too much at the same aspects of Athena.
He even talks about respecting Kotetsu's traits as a butler, but he needs prompting, possibly even significant prompting, to even mention things about Athena.

And it's actually made a pun about which word is used to describe the type of love Hinagiku feels for him, which is the romantic style.
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... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

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Old 2010-12-26, 19:53   Link #7498
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
No, you're remembering right. Hayate visits his old high school with the Hamster and muses that if his parents hadn't sold him off, they could be dating right now.

It's a recurrent theme with Ayumu, really, Hayate expresses interest but offers various excuses as to why he's just too busy/poor ect to take her up on the offer.

In 239, Hayate puts Hina and Ayumu side by side, which strikes me as probably correct in the sense that Hayate would happily go out with either of them if it was convenient for him, but he hasn't shown enough interest to really work for it.
Hayate did say that he wanted a girlfriend in chapter 1 or 2, so I believe he probably didn't mind to be with the any of the girls. Well, at least, until he dreamed about the events in the EotW arc.
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Old 2010-12-26, 19:57   Link #7499
Nemuru
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I seem to have a vague memory of Hayate stating somewhere that he could be dating Nishizawa, I don't think it was to her though, but it's still enough to put your statement on questionable ground.
He also seems to hold Hinagiku's relationship to him as somewhat equal to his relationship with Nagi, so there's potential for romance there.. he just thinks she's always angry with him for various reasons.
The Nishizawa and Hayate relationship to me is rather minute to be considered since there has been no progress made. She’s become more of a canon folder for Hinagiku development atm. Does anyone believe Nizhizawa is a possibility even if the Mangaka somehow gave her more development? even on a popularity poll I would be surprise if hayate pick her as even the fans can't see it. In the end I am looking for something special and unique which doesn't translate into Hayate is being nice which is the nature of the series.


Hinagiku and Nagi haven’t yet hit that string in Hayate heart or else we wouldn't have a gag manga to write about. From the viewers perspective we support different characters based on events that Hayate cannot see, This is where at a personal level we tend to believe more than we should. Hence this is my issue with nagi while being important I would still regulate her as a sister or family he cares about however it is not of the romantic type.

Hinagiku still hasn't confessed and there is no evidence to suggest Hayate has realised that someone else likes him. I will come back and give you a cookie once Hinagiku has confessed, It is going to be like ichigo 100% if she just sits there and pray a wind will bring Hayate to her lol.

P.S O no, I'm drag back into the storm again lol.
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Old 2010-12-26, 20:26   Link #7500
madmac
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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The Nishizawa and Hayate relationship to me is rather minute to be considered since there has been no progress made.
*Shrug* It's a long series. If Athena seems to have a more dynamic relationship then the other girls, it's mostly because she's new. Just give it some time and see what happens...

I really like Ayumu's character, but I don't think anyone ever considered her a serious contender to start with. She was very obviously introduced as a foil to Nagi, which makes it funnier (and cuter) that they're like best buds now.
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