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Old 2010-12-26, 20:40   Link #7501
zodanhko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Ah..
Still waiting to hear the part about me only reading the subtext though.
I guess I was mistaken the "entirely based on subtext" for the "only subtext," with how important subtext is to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Except that he stares at, and talks about, Hinagiku, Nagi, Maria, and most of the rest of his harem's 'feminine aspects',while he tries to avoid looking too much at the same aspects of Athena.
He even talks about respecting Kotetsu's traits as a butler, but he needs prompting, possibly even significant prompting, to even mention things about Athena.

And it's actually made a pun about which word is used to describe the type of love Hinagiku feels for him, which is the romantic style.
And, Hayate's a pervert?

Categorized Nagi with Hina and Maria? Uhmm... he does think of them as "women" or, at least, Nagi is becoming more mature as a girl. If you know Hayate's personality, you should know that he's almost always avoid 'staring' and 'talking' about a girl's feminine traits. He's too innocent for that.

Anyway, do you remember the first thing Hayate noticed about Athena when they re-encounter?

No, no, that's not what Hina really thinks (nor what the viewers think, either way is fine). From the subtext, it's very clear that she's a hopeless girl about "love." WTF, subtext? Yes, subtext. It rules.
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Old 2010-12-26, 21:33   Link #7502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Categorized Nagi with Hina and Maria? Uhmm... he does think of them as "women" or, at least, Nagi is becoming more mature as a girl. If you know Hayate's personality, you should know that he's almost always avoid 'staring' and 'talking' about a girl's feminine traits. He's too innocent for that.
He's twice rebuked Hinagiku for acting unladylike and (used to?) continually correct Nagi's posture when she was reading her manga and/or playing video games. He's also been caught staring at Hinagiku when she'd dressed up for their dates. It took her rebukes to return him to conscious thought.
He's also blushed, rather significantly, when given views of some of the other harem members' more chest-oriented growth, including Maria, Nishizawa and Sakuya.
And his reaction to finding Hinagiku and Izumi (two attractive young women by his own admission) in a compromising position was the source of much amusement for the fans.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Anyway, do you remember the first thing Hayate noticed about Athena when they re-encounter?
Yes, he noticed she'd grown. He pointedly did not have an answer for her follow-up question about 'what' he had noticed had grown until properly prompted by Athena herself, and even when he does give her the answer she wants, he adds 'I guess'. Which indicates it wasn't something he noticed.
It's not clear, in either text or subtext, exactly what he'd noticed, but given his non-perverted nature, I would venture to guess that he'd just noticed that her height had grown, which would need significant stretching to say that there was anything romantic about.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
No, no, that's not what Hina really thinks (nor what the viewers think, either way is fine). From the subtext, it's very clear that she's a hopeless girl about "love." WTF, subtext? Yes, subtext. It rules.
Considering that was her first thought and she clearly stated to Ayumu later that she has since come to the conclusion that she really is in 'romantic' love with Hayate, and has been since she first saw him, it's exactly what she thinks.
Yes, she is clueless about love, since this is the first time in years that she has allowed herself to feel this way.
That doesn't change the facts that she clearly is in love with him romantically.

Hayate doesn't seem to react to Athena's presence in a similar manner.
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Old 2010-12-26, 22:08   Link #7503
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Spoiler for bastion:

He did noticed Hina and Nagi being unladylike and corrected their behaviors. He did thinks some of the girls have attractive faces. He did say that Athena is beautiful. (not really "stare" and "talk" about the skirts, their faces like a pervert) What of it? It's unimportant when you are talking about his feelings.

He pretty much was honest with himself when he said he noticed her chests, because most boys normally will not say such things (they don't want to be punished), especially since he is innocent. He was honest with her.

It looks like what you considered of her feelings, and what I considered from the subtext are different. Dam, subtext are useless.

Spoiler for Subtext:

Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-26 at 22:20.
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Old 2010-12-26, 22:46   Link #7504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
He did noticed Hina and Nagi being unladylike and corrected their behaviors. He did thinks some of the girls have attractive faces. He did say that Athena is beautiful. (not really "stare" and "talk" about it) What of it? It's unimportant when you are talking about his feelings.
He's continually shown that what he finds to be most attractive is the mind and their ability to hold a stimulating conversation (generally a trait found in older women), which is a trait he enjoys about both Nagi and Hinagiku. Hata hasn't quite shown Athena being able to generate the same response from him.
When he thought Hinagiku was angry with him, he immediately asked Nagi if he could go apologize for whatever he'd done to anger her, this was before either of them made any attraction for the other known.
When he angers Athena, he leaves her alone for some time before trying to reconcile and then finds he is unable to, and leaves her alone for ten years.

Also, when he was staring at Hinagiku until it made her uncomfortable, it clearly wasn't her face he was staring at. Neither did he appear to be directing his stares at any of the other young women above their shoulders

I'll talk about attractive women being ones that I'm interested in pursuing (a friendship with), and 'beautiful' women being ones that look nice on the outside, but not interesting.
If I call someone beautiful, it's actually an insult XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
He pretty much was honest with himself when he said he noticed her chests, because most boys normally will not say such things (they don't want to be punished), especially since he is innocent. He was honest with her.
It was quite clear that he was trying to figure out what the answer she was looking for was in the first place. Until her directions, he didn't have a clue what the 'right' answer was. He's never seemed to notice any of the other young women's chests, first, in any of the other cases. His gaze usually starts rather lower. All of the females have healthy figures where his gazes tend to start off (I'd link the trope, but I'm keeping someone waiting).
There's no real indication that he'd even noticed her chest, even after she told him to look.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Spoiler for Subtext:
Erm, no, you didn't change anything about the subtext, which clearly stated that he was uncomfortable about something. Given what we know of Hayate, it was probably the fact that he was being seen in his sleepwear and not to do, as much, with the young women standing in his room.
He's a little wary of things when it's Nagi essentially in a similar situation within canon.
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Old 2010-12-26, 23:27   Link #7505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
He's continually shown that what he finds to be most attractive is the mind and their ability to hold a stimulating conversation (generally a trait found in older women), which is a trait he enjoys about both Nagi and Hinagiku. Hata hasn't quite shown Athena being able to generate the same response from him.
He thinks Nagi and Hina are immature because they have a strong desire to win. He even once considering talk about manga/anime with Hina to have a conersation because he thinks Hina might like them like Nagi. I think it's obvious, as readers, that Athena is MORE mature than both Hina and Nagi. And Hayate WON'T say Nagi and Hina are unladylike if he think they're mature.


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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
When he thought Hinagiku was angry with him, he immediately asked Nagi if he could go apologize for whatever he'd done to anger her, this was before either of them made any attraction for the other known.
When he angers Athena, he leaves her alone for some time before trying to reconcile and then finds he is unable to, and leaves her alone for ten years.

Also, when he was staring at Hinagiku until it made her uncomfortable, it clearly wasn't her face he was staring at. Neither did he appear to be directing his stares at any of the other young women above their shoulders
Did you not see how much he cried when he left Athena alone? Did you not see how depressed he got when he thinks Athena hates him (to do point that he payed no attention to Hina at all during the evening)?
Yes, every he thinks Hina got angry at him, he wants he apologize even if it's her fault, and try not to anger her. That's pretty much it. O gosh, I might come to pity Hina if we keep comparing.

He may just came up with an excuse after his mind wandered from thinking about Athena, and not stare look at Hina at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
I'll talk about attractive women being ones that I'm interested in pursuing (a friendship with), and 'beautiful' women being ones that look nice on the outside, but not interesting.
If I call someone beautiful, it's actually an insult XD
It's amusing how after Hayate said Hina's pretty with all her get-ups, and then hee just thinking about Athena all the time during his evening with Hina. Kinda match your description for Hina as an insult. Lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
It was quite clear that he was trying to figure out what the answer she was looking for was in the first place. Until her directions, he didn't have a clue what the 'right' answer was. He's never seemed to notice any of the other young women's chests, first, in any of the other cases. His gaze usually starts rather lower. All of the females have healthy figures where his gazes tend to start off (I'd link the trope, but I'm keeping someone waiting).
There's no real indication that he'd even noticed her chest, even after she told him to look.
Nope. Talking about a girl's chest is difficult to say for Hayate because he's an innocent boy (he won't lie about it if he didn't noticed it first), so he said it because he wanted to be honest with her. There was no reason for him to lie to her if that lie could cause him to be punished. He could easily said Athena's taller, prettier (which is usually what guys say), have longer hair, wearing a black suit, but he didn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Erm, no, you didn't change anything about the subtext, which clearly stated that he was uncomfortable about something. Given what we know of Hayate, it was probably the fact that he was being seen in his sleepwear and not to do, as much, with the young women standing in his room.
He's a little wary of things when it's Nagi essentially in a similar situation within canon.
Spoiler for Subtext:

The meaning of the subtext did change. Right now, he's uncomfortable or nervous about asking her to let him kiss because he doesn't know whether she'll accept it or not.

"clearly stated that he was uncomfortable about something." You failed to know why he was nervous or uncomfortable? And must use the word 'something' to describe it. Yes, the vague meaning that you used for the subtext(without the text) didn't change, but the real meaning of the art changed.

Although whether we know him or not is irrelevant in interpreting images, he and Athena kissed at least more than 100 times already.

WTF, how did a wall of text appears??? I thought I wrote 4 sentences previously.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-27 at 00:08.
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Old 2010-12-27, 02:50   Link #7506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
He thinks Nagi and Hina are immature because they have a strong desire to win. He even once considering talk about manga/anime with Hina to have a conersation because he thinks Hina might like them like Nagi. I think it's obvious, as readers, that Athena is MORE mature than both Hina and Nagi. And Hayate WON'T say Nagi and Hina are unladylike if he think they're mature.
How does a strong desire to win imply immaturity in your world?
Yukiji had a strong desire to win against the debt her parents left her and her younger sister. Hinagiku still sees this as a sign of maturity, as shown by her choosing to call her 'Onee-chan' instead of some belittling term because of the elder sister's tenancy to drink herself into oblivion, which she sees as immature.
Athena is shown as Hinagiku's equal in maturity when described by the student council (at that time, Hayate's only source of recent information about her).
If he thought Hinagiku and Nagi weren't even ladylike, why would he be rebuking them for acting it? He is trying to make sure they act like they're appearing, their actions are providing a dissonance that he's trying to help them overcome. He's trying even harder in Nagi's case actually, since he sees it as his duty as her butler to do so.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Did you not see how much he cried when he left Athena alone? Did you not see how depressed he got when he thinks Athena hates him (to do point that he payed no attention to Hina at all during the evening)?
Yes, every he thinks Hina got angry at him, he wants he apologize even if it's her fault, and try not to anger her. That's pretty much it.

He may just came up with an excuse after his mind wandered from thinking about Athena, and not stare look at Hina at all.
He was very attentive to Hinagiku during their evening, though that was only because he wanted her to enjoy the evening (which she didn't), but he kept thinking about Athena and why she had been acting so coldly towards him.
When he was staring at Hinagiku at the beginning of the evening, I doubt Athena even entered his mind though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Nope. Talking about a girl's chest is difficult to say for Hayate because he's an innocent boy (he won't lie about it if he didn't noticed it first), so he said it because he wanted to be honest with her. There was no reason for him to lie to her if that lie could cause him to be punished. He could easily said Athena's taller, prettier (which is usually what guys say), have longer hair, wearing a black suit, but he didn't.
Talking about a female's chest is actually easy to say once you've made it clear that it's not a focal point of your attention, which Hayate has with the other females around him.
He clearly will lie if it's the answer they want to hear, he's done it several times around Nagi.
The fact that it isn't until after the clear indication of what answer Athena is expecting that he does answer that tells us it is a lie.
He did get punished for the last lie (that we saw) him give to Athena, so he wants to make sure not to provoke her again.

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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
Although whether we know him or not is irrelevant in interpreting images.
You clearly have no concept of subtext. The better you know someone, the easier they are to read. I can 'read' you now better than I used to be able to because I know how your brain ticks, thus I have a little more insight as to the subtext of your posts.
We know a lot about Hayate especially because he's the main character of this manga and has appeared in most every situation in it's 300+ chapter run.
Would Wataru's gamble of calling Hayate have been as amusing to us if it had happened at the beginning of the story instead of extra within the Golden Week arc?
In contrast, we know very little about Athena's subtext and have to figure it out based on what we know of Hayate's reactions to her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
he and Athena kissed at least more than 100 times already.
Yes, as 'kids', Hayate has matured since then, and knows what a kiss truly means now. At least, 'kiss' as you're choosing to interpret it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
"clearly stated that he was uncomfortable about something." You failed to know why he was nervous or uncomfortable? And must use the word 'something' to describe it. Yes, the vague meaning that you used for the subtext(without the text) didn't change, but the real meaning of the art changed.
You don't change the subtext by changing what the text reads, that's how translators work, they read the intention of the piece, and then choose words that fit it, not the other way around.
The text in the piece you provided doesn't fit what's drawn.
That's why I enjoy pieces from other languages/cultures, the text may change, but body language is universal. Trying to change what it says just makes things look like a tangled mess, as that piece clearly shows.
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Old 2010-12-27, 03:38   Link #7507
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
How does a strong desire to win imply immaturity in your world?

Athena is shown as Hinagiku's equal in maturity when described by the student council (at that time, Hayate's only source of recent information about her).
The desire to win an argument even if you're at fault, like your Hina-tan.

What are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
If he thought Hinagiku and Nagi weren't even ladylike, why would he be rebuking them for acting it? He is trying to make sure they act like they're appearing, their actions are providing a dissonance that he's trying to help them overcome.
He knows they are ladies, and he noticed they act unladylike which was why he tried to correct their behavior. Noticed that he never once said anything like that to Maria, Athena, and Ayumu who are are matured.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
He was very attentive to Hinagiku during their evening, though that was only because he wanted her to enjoy the evening (which she didn't), but he kept thinking about Athena and why she had been acting so coldly towards him.
When he was staring at Hinagiku at the beginning of the evening, I doubt Athena even entered his mind though.
Attentive to Hina, could be. Attracted by Hina's look, not at all. Dam Athena. right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Talking about a female's chest is actually easy to say once you've made it clear that it's not a focal point of your attention, which Hayate has with the other females around him.
He clearly will lie if it's the answer they want to hear, he's done it several times around Nagi.
The fact that it isn't until after the clear indication of what answer Athena is expecting that he does answer that tells us it is a lie.
He did get punished for the last lie (that we saw) him give to Athena, so he wants to make sure not to provoke her again.
I'll skip this. Hayate's words are more liable than yours anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
You clearly have no concept of subtext. The better you know someone, the easier they are to read. I can 'read' you now better than I used to be able to because I know how your brain ticks, thus I have a little more insight as to the subtext of your posts.
We know a lot about Hayate especially because he's the main character of this manga and has appeared in most every situation in it's 300+ chapter run.
Would Wataru's gamble of calling Hayate have been as amusing to us if it had happened at the beginning of the story instead of extra within the Golden Week arc?
In contrast, we know very little about Athena's subtext and have to figure it out based on what we know of Hayate's reactions to her.
Hm, I guess you may be right about knowing someone better helps for you, but I don't think it's really necessary for me in a manga. Although I must say you don't understand much about Hayate.

It's too bad I haven't seen anyone who agreed with you about the important of subtext.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
You don't change the subtext by changing what the text reads, that's how translators work, they read the intention of the piece, and then choose words that fit it, not the other way around.
The text in the piece you provided doesn't fit what's drawn.
That's why I enjoy pieces from other languages/cultures, the text may change, but body language is universal. Trying to change what it says just makes things look like a tangled mess, as that piece clearly shows.
Texts pretty much do change the meanings of the subtexts. LOTS of translators edited the texts of a page in some chapters and put it at the end of the chapters which completely change the meanings of the art. It's a COMMON occurrence. Looks like even the translators are disagreeing with you.

Last edited by zodanhko; 2010-12-27 at 04:02.
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Old 2010-12-27, 04:07   Link #7508
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*Shrug* It's a long series. If Athena seems to have a more dynamic relationship then the other girls, it's mostly because she's new. Just give it some time and see what happens...
That depends on if she becomes a regular or not. If she doesn't, then I'd expect a small flurry every time she shows up, but not a lot when she's offscreen. If she does become a regular, expect her to be consigned to the same "no movement" hell that Hina is spinning her wheels in.
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Old 2010-12-27, 07:48   Link #7509
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That depends on if she becomes a regular or not. If she doesn't, then I'd expect a small flurry every time she shows up, but not a lot when she's offscreen. If she does become a regular, expect her to be consigned to the same "no movement" hell that Hina is spinning her wheels in.
Aika said that Alice's "Secret Training" last three months. If Chibi-Athena is going to be hanging around that long, she's definitely a regular. A chibi-regular, at that. I can't imagine she'll make (or even try) any romantic progress during that time, but there's some potential in seeing her yank around other people.
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Old 2010-12-27, 08:16   Link #7510
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Feels like a strange discussion ^_^;

If you try to examine the issue with a bit of neutral distance, it's easy to see that Hayate totally and utterly sucks at romance. With pretty much every girl, even with Athena (though she clearly came farthest).

Hayate did not display any kind of authentic _romantic_ interest stemming from himself that I can remember, with the exception of his naive childhood time with Athena. Even during the end of the EOTW arc, his primary concerns were "I must rescue A-tan" and "I need to apologize to her", not "I want to be with her". And he was able to very readily accept their splitup afterwards, even though it clearly pained him.

The "problem", if you can call it that, is that Hayate has no real concept of "self". He doesn't show interests, or needs. He doesn't really wonder what HE would want to do, what HE would like or hate. Instead, he purely submits to his responsibilities and tasks, and here, romance really plays no role. In addition to that, Hayate is extremely dense when it comes to recognizing romantic interest in other people. Add in the fact that he has a strong tendency to "obey" without having an opinion of his own, and you come up with someone totally unsuited for mutual romance.

I'll try to briefly sum up how I believe Hayate sees the main girls. Feel free to give examples where you disagree.

1) Nagi: His Ojousama. His savior who he's sworn to protect and serve. Especially in the scene where she destroyed the jewel and forfeited her riches for HIS sake, and the manga side-commented that "Here, the boy saw his future", we can see that this is his prime directive, his absolute priority. He will serve her till she releases him by her own volition. At the same time, Hayate feels like a parent towards his child: He feels like guiding her out of her hikikomori shell, to become a normal person. He does not consider her romantic interest material at all, she's not even on his radar. I believe it would require alot of development to change that.

2) Maria: Nagi's surrogate mother. Perfect in everything she does. Along with that comes the feeling that Maria is more mature than he is, that she is "older" (to Maria's constant chagrin). In a few scenes where the two of them were physically close, Hayate reacts embarrassed and blushing, so a physical attraction does exist. However, Maria never tried to develop any initiative towards him, and he knows that Nagi reacted extremely jealous on any suspicion that he might have interest in Maria, so barring any huge upheavals, I don't foresee any developments here.

3) Hina: Someone he admires and feels indebted to, but who is out of his reach. Right after the tower scene, the issue whether or not Hina might like Hayate is openly breached (Nagi is worried that she does), and Maria determinedly states that "there's no way that someone as great and super-cute like Hina could fall for Hayate", and Hayate concurs in a subdued manner. He's depressed because he thinks that he constantly makes her mad, even though she's helping him all the time, so his feelings about her have a strong component of guilt. We know from various scenes that he considers her very charming and feminine, albeit a bit "unguarded", and he chides her for it (which is particularly humorous because Hina is every bit as shy as he is). Both of them tend to react very strongly to physical touch by the other, so a general attraction is obvious. However, he totally hasn't realized Hina's feelings, and he considers her unattainable anyway.

In my opinion, this is the biggest obvious and predetermined breaking point remaining. It is hard to predict how Hayate will react once he realizes the truth, but it will have significant repercussions and will IMHO trigger the end run of the show, no matter where the dice may fall.

4) Ayumu: Warm, close and precious friend and great person. He knows how she feels, and he admits that he feels happy about it, but he doesn't actively react to it. He passively accepts her embrace and feelings, but he doesn't reciprocate. On one hand, it's due to obvious formal reasons: His current task forces him to fully concentrate on Nagi. Also, Hayate feels that he doesn't meet the (Athena-induced) requirements for having a girlfriend. He also doesn't react as extreme to physical touch as he does with other girls. I think that these two have come as close as they're going to get, but not further. Hayate likes her, but not "like that". No misconceptions or miscomunications remain. I don't expect many changes here.

5) Athena: A-tan. Childhood friend. Childhood lover. Expelled over a mistake Hayate feels he made, and which he desperately wanted to remedy again. The only character Hayate ever showed signs of personal affection to, out of self-born impulse. Especially towards her, Hayate displays a high degree of unquestioning obedience, and where Athena shows initiative and determination towards Hayate, he will quickly play ball. The only character Hayate declared to "love"/"have loved", though at the same time he never realized it over all the years and only came to this conclusion when he was prodded.

So, their relationship is a peculiar one. Hayate's primary desire wasn't to be with her, but to SAVE her and APOLOGIZE to her. And when Athena reminded him that she couldn't be with him, since he had an overriding obligation to Nagi, he quickly accepted it, albeit with tears. I find it extremely hard to predict how this is going to develop now that Athena has reappeared. He's obviously still unquestioning and obedient, but how he sees her now remains unclear. We'll have to see if Hayate ever develops personal initiative to get back with Athena, or how he deals with the current unclear status. At the moment we only see that he's still willing to unquestioningly follow her lead.
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:03   Link #7511
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I'll actually agree with you broadly, mostly to the extent that there are only three girls at this stage with unexplored romantic potential remaining--Nagi, Hina, and Athena.

With Nagi, there is the fundamental misunderstanding that goes back to the first chapter, and there's still a lot of ambiguity as to what exactly 252-253 meant to either of them.

Did Nagi tell Hayate "words only cause misunderstandings" because she had figured it out? We don't know, but she hasn't been seen fantasizing about him like she used to and she's been much more open with him since then.

With Hayate's "Here, the boy saw his future" explanation and all his talk about "not being able to move forward" and "I promise I'll come back to you" did he finally get Nagi's feelings? Well, he's unbelievably dense, so probably not, but again he's been acting a bit differently and it's not really explained anywhere. I would say at a minimum he now has an idea how much Nagi values him and that only strengthens his devotion to her.

I would say they've made progress, (If nothing else, the whole "Silly misunderstanding" thing doesn't seem to happen anymore.) but it's still got a long, long, way to go.

Hina, as you've said, he doesn't remotely understand her feelings and we don't know exactly how he'll react if she ever tells him. I have a hard time seeing that development as "endgame" myself, but Hata only knows it sure feels like she's never going to make any progress before then.

With Athena, we just don't know how he's going to react to her yet, despite 264-265 giving us a sense of closure between them. Could go in a number of directions, but Hayate being Hayate I wouldn't be surprised to see him just assuming the romance is over for good and acting as an intensely loyal childhood friend to the point that Athena considers throwing a brick at him. We should find out soon enough.
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Old 2010-12-27, 09:47   Link #7512
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I'll actually agree with you broadly, mostly to the extent that there are only three girls at this stage with unexplored romantic potential remaining--Nagi, Hina, and Athena.

With Nagi, there is the fundamental misunderstanding that goes back to the first chapter, and there's still a lot of ambiguity as to what exactly 252-253 meant to either of them.

Did Nagi tell Hayate "words only cause misunderstandings" because she had figured it out? We don't know, but she hasn't been seen fantasizing about him like she used to and she's been much more open with him since then.
I'm 100% sure he hasn't figured out that she "loves" him (how much of Nagi's feeling should really be called romantic love already remains to be seen - she is VERY young). In this scene, I think he realized that his future is to stay by Nagi's side and protect her now that she forfeited her mad riches for HIS sake. Not that she considers him her lover.

Quote:
Hina, as you've said, he doesn't remotely understand her feelings and we don't know exactly how he'll react if she ever tells him. I have a hard time seeing that development as "endgame" myself, but Hata only knows it sure feels like she's never going to make any progress before then.
It's obvious that Hata inserted a very complicated and hardly credible twist (Hina's alias as "Red", hero of justice) to ensure that Hayate does NOT recognize her. You don't do stuff like that unless you feel it's vital for the show. Therefore, keeping Hayate in the dark about Hina - her feelings and her actions - is considered of vital importance.

I'm very sure that if/when the bubble bursts, and Hayate realizes Hina's feelings, it will be at the climax of a crisis. And I'm 99% sure it will be in a way that she will run or maybe even actively call it quits from her side, and Hayate will immediately thereafter learn what she has been doing for him in the past, without him realizing. What this is going to lead to - either just a guilt trip of gigantic proportions or a reevalutation of his feelings in this new light - remains to be seen. But after already 200 chapters of "dancing around the issue", something big is going to happen when lightning finally strikes. I'm sure of that.

As a side remark: It seems that some spoilers for chapter 302 say...

Spoiler:


This issue is definitely going to matter. And once it breaks into the open, things are going to be very interesting

Quote:
With Athena, we just don't know how he's going to react to her yet, despite 264-265 giving us a sense of closure between them. Could go in a number of directions, but Hayate being Hayate I wouldn't be surprised to see him just assuming the romance is over for good and acting as an intensely loyal childhood friend to the point that Athena considers throwing a brick at him. We should find out soon enough.
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:28   Link #7513
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The issue is why it matters. To be honest, I really think the reason he hasn't done anything with Hayate and Hina's relationship is because Hina is hugely popular with the fanbase and he knows there would be trouble if Hayate had to turn her down. Which, judging by the Athena arc, would almost be a given. (And that's even assuming Hayate has clear feelings for her that he's willing to personally acknowledge.) Nagi is number one to him and I fully expect the end of the series to maintain status quo.

To be honest, as much as I love Hayate/Athena, I have no trouble with their relationship transforming into something else with a lingering affectionate tinge. Their backstory is detailed enough that I think they would make excellent friends on a level unmatched by anyone else Hayate interacts with. Their bond will always be unique and precious to one another even if it's not romantic.

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:43   Link #7514
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The issue is why it matters. To be honest, I really think the reason he hasn't done anything with Hayate and Hina's relationship is because Hina is hugely popular with the fanbase and he knows there would be trouble if Hayate had to turn her down. Which, judging by the Athena arc, would almost be a given. (And that's even assuming Hayate has clear feelings for her that he's willing to personally acknowledge.) Nagi is number one to him and I fully expect the end of the series to maintain status quo.
At the moment, if someone would stick the truth to Hayate, he certainly would not be in a position to accept. I'd like him to give the idea some thought, but then again, it's kind of a binary switch. It would be inconceivable even for his thickness that he would NOT notice what's going on, unless the very thought would be in the realm of the impossible to begin with.

I do not however foresee any ending which would "maintain the status quo". That would be no ending at all, as in "no closure".

Quote:
To be honest, as much as I love Hayate/Athena, I have no trouble with their relationship transforming into something else with a lingering affectionate tinge. Their backstory is detailed enough that I think they would make excellent friends on a level unmatched by anyone else Hayate interacts with. Their bond will always be unique and precious to one another even if it's not romantic.
She'll always be able to jerk him around as she sees fit, hm? I'd prefer Hayate to develop something like a personality of his own, which does NOT center around "do as told". This aspect is missing within him, and we know why.

Quote:
Spoiler:
I'm not surprised that you'd see it like that ^_^;

I mean, what's a little bit of blackmail of someone who saved your life? And whose help you seem to require in the future? Who cares, it's about ME. Yep, that's our A-tan...
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Old 2010-12-27, 11:53   Link #7515
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I do not however foresee any ending which would "maintain the status quo". That would be no ending at all, as in "no closure".
HnG is a comedy-centric warm-hearted family story with romcom elements. I think he's saving the Hina-Hayate resolution for huge fireworks, but I don't expect them to end up together. I think even if given a choice, Hayate will choose to be with "milady".

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I'm not surprised that you'd see it like that ^_^;
Of course I do. I don't love A-tan because she's a delicate flower of humility and sacrifice, I love her because she's strong willed and does what it takes to meet her goals. I like her because she's entertaining to watch and I adore her personality as a whole. So seeing her put a plan in action and carry it out perfectly is great. The biggest crime a character can commit, to me, is to be boring. I find Athena to be the most interesting character in the series, thus she's my favorite.

Spoiler:
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Old 2010-12-27, 13:15   Link #7516
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Texts pretty much do change the meanings of the subtexts. LOTS of translators edited the texts of a page in some chapters and put it at the end of the chapters which completely change the meanings of the art. It's a COMMON occurrence. Looks like even the translators are disagreeing with you.
This is the only argument I'm going to touch on, most of the others don't even make sense.
The translators of the Bible are trapped by the subtext. You cannot change the meaning of the text. There are many ways to translate things into other languages, given the evolution of language and such, but if you do it incorrectly, it's clear that there's something discordant about it.
I saw a 'modern' translation of the Christmas story video this past weekend, it was significantly different, and made to be humorist, but it still told the same tale.

I've seen a lot of examples of this.

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Originally Posted by madmac View Post
Did Nagi tell Hayate "words only cause misunderstandings" because she had figured it out? We don't know, but she hasn't been seen fantasizing about him like she used to and she's been much more open with him since then.

With Hayate's "Here, the boy saw his future" explanation and all his talk about "not being able to move forward" and "I promise I'll come back to you" did he finally get Nagi's feelings? Well, he's unbelievably dense, so probably not, but again he's been acting a bit differently and it's not really explained anywhere. I would say at a minimum he now has an idea how much Nagi values him and that only strengthens his devotion to her.

I would say they've made progress, (If nothing else, the whole "Silly misunderstanding" thing doesn't seem to happen anymore.) but it's still got a long, long, way to go.
This, I expect, will be the biggest part of the continuing story. While I think Nagi still holds on to the affection that she once had since the first, she might have realized that Hayate doesn't hold the same affection she thought he had, and so be trying to build it up from scratch (although not, since she's been building up his affections for her from the start), but trying now to create an atmosphere of romance instead of the role Hayate had put himself in to make her a mature woman.

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It's obvious that Hata inserted a very complicated and hardly credible twist (Hina's alias as "Red", hero of justice) to ensure that Hayate does NOT recognize her. You don't do stuff like that unless you feel it's vital for the show. Therefore, keeping Hayate in the dark about Hina - her feelings and her actions - is considered of vital importance.
Actually, it was probably put in there to reference a trope considering how, illogically, strongly the characters insisted it was a guy.
Though Silver Red's continued existence may be of importance later, I don't think it'll play a role like you're expecting, as several more have come about since that center around Red, including the color of the uniform being a rather selective meaning to Hina-tan, plus her own red (flavored) hair.

I saw someone mention how Hayate would never give up his devotion to Nagi as her butler and thus wouldn't be able to pursue anyone else as a romantic prospect, until released, which we were told would take fourty years before Hayate would be able to pay her back (and that was back when Nagi had all the Sanzenin money to back her up, we haven't been told if that's changed since), which the other young women would never respect, since that would require giving up the dream of having a family with him.

I personally solved this issue in my fanfic by forcing him to request from Nagi the right to date another girl while still working for her, allowing him to take romantic interest, while still holding true to his promise to protect her. This also allowed her to show him that she was maturing, as he was trying to get her to do.
She's going to be holding onto romantic hopes for the whole storyline because of it (while the other girls of the harem move on), and even lets the other young woman play a significant role in Nagi's growing maturity, while Hayate fills both the roll of continuing to teach her to be mature, and giving her the romantic pushes she's wanting from him, continue to protect her, and pursue someone else romantically at the same time.
She's also the one who got to throw the 'spike-lined brick' at his head to make him realize the romances around him, so I'm not doing away with the humor while running to the end-game.
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Old 2010-12-27, 13:54   Link #7517
zodanhko
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The translators of the Bible are trapped by the subtext. You cannot change the meaning of the text. There are many ways to translate things into other languages, given the evolution of language and such, but if you do it incorrectly, it's clear that there's something discordant about it.
I saw a 'modern' translation of the Christmas story video this past weekend, it was significantly different, and made to be humorist, but it still told the same tale.
I've seen a lot of examples of this.
You are forgetting that "Bible" are made of texts, and the subtexts are understood through reading the texts, which is no different from the arts (subtexts) of the manga which are understood through the texts.

The "Christmas story" you watched seem to change the texts to create more humor and still works. That's no different from what I was saying. Of course, they have to make the video having same theme.
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Old 2010-12-27, 14:16   Link #7518
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Originally Posted by zodanhko View Post
You are forgetting that "Bible" are made of texts, and the subtexts are understood through reading the texts, which is no different from the arts (subtexts) of the manga which are understood through the texts.

The "Christmas story" you watched seem to change the texts to create more humor and still works. That's no different from what I was saying. Of course, they have to make the video having same theme.
Subtext is the underlying theme, it has no media counterpart.
In manga it is usually seen through pictures,
In animation and real life it is usually seen through body language,
In writing it is given in the texts.
It's all subtext, and it's all solid no matter how you translate it. Language barriers don't stand a chance against subtext. It's universal.

Someday we may find alien life and learn to communicate with it. A new level of subtext may be born/found, but it will still fall into the category of subtext.

The 'christmas story' I watched changed the times it was set in. It didn't change the subtext.
People have probably laughed at the absurdity of the original subtext of the 'christmas story' (and Christmas Story), so that probably wasn't even that big of a change.

I don't know why you're assuming that they needed to keep the same theme, humans have completely changed the 'christmas story' over the 2000+ years that it's existed.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but most people now don't even know the true theme anymore.
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Arcion's is open for business. How would you like your hare-brained scheme?

Would people quit throwing my faith in humanity being intelligent a shovel?
... Apparently there are now people in existence who are unable to use a shovel.

Programming today is a race between programmers trying to create better idiot-proof programs, and the world creating better idiots.
The world is winning.. by leaps and bounds.

Body Language and Intonation can convey large amounts of information with a single word.

Last edited by Bastion_Arcion; 2010-12-27 at 14:28.
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Old 2010-12-27, 14:27   Link #7519
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Actually, it was probably put in there to reference a trope considering how, illogically, strongly the characters insisted it was a guy.
That might have been an explanation for the first time Hina was made to wear the costume, but not for having Ayumu pointlessly bring it along and have Hina wear it before the final battle in Greece.

Quote:
Though Silver Red's continued existence may be of importance later, I don't think it'll play a role like you're expecting, as several more have come about since that center around Red, including the color of the uniform being a rather selective meaning to Hina-tan, plus her own red (flavored) hair.
I see absolutely zero significance in the color. Having Ayumu bring the costume along had no deeper meaning other than obscuring Hina's identity from Hayate. Hata even drove home the point one extra time when he made Hayate briefly ask Red/Hina who s/he was at the beginning of the fight, making clear that he didn't recognize her.
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Old 2010-12-27, 14:28   Link #7520
zodanhko
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Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion View Post
Subtext is the underlying theme, it has no media counterpart.
In manga it is usually seen through pictures.
In animation and real life it is usually seen through body language,
In writing it is given in the texts.
It's all subtext, and it's all solid no matter how you translate it. Language barriers don't stand a chance against subtext. It's universal.
Since we obviously have different opinion, I'll stop now. I hope one day someone will come to agree with you with the subtexts.

About anime, try this link to understand how humor can easily be created through using/changing the texts in even the most serious situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdIhN...eature=related Enjoy!

If you fail to understand, it's ok...
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